I apologise in advance, this is very long. I have a question about POJAing a really difficult issue. My situation is this: A year ago, we lived in Australia but my H is German. (Me, 45, him, 47, both have home-based office jobs; three kids 11, 6, and 3). He is devoted to his family back in Germany. After 6 years in Aus, he wanted to return to Europe. I didn�t want to go, I hadn�t been happy when I�d lived there previously, and I had a lot of connections in Aus and felt comfortable there. He didn�t listen. He pushed relentlessly, he heard what he wanted to hear, he sort of fooled himself that I was on board with what he wanted. I put up a big fight against this for years, this was the only bone of contention in our relationship. I finally started giving in because I could see that he didn�t want to stay in Aus, he wanted to live in Europe again. I didn�t think it was fair that I should force him to live where he didn�t want to live, I didn�t want to be a dictator. Finally, his father got very ill and that was the last jerk of the crowbar that was needed to get me to agree to live in Europe. I facilitated the whole move, I packed everything up while my partner found us a house in Europe, I tried to act like I was happy about it, I hoped for the best, but I really did not want to go.

It was a disaster.

Yes, now we both know where we went wrong: he took and I gave, and it was a very bad mistake that made me very angry and almost caused me to leave him once we had arrived in Europe. If I didn�t have kids by him I would have left for sure. Finding MB was extremely helpful in realising where we went wrong. H is completely on board with the MB program, he understands where he went wrong, and he has sworn to POJA from now on. He feels remorseful.

However, the whole situation has left a major problem that now requires a difficult POJA. So, my H moved us to one hour away from his family, who live in a small village in Germany: mother, father, and younger sister with her H and 2 kids. I tried for many years to form some connection with these people. I sent packages of photos of the kids and our life several times a year, wrote them letters, sent them birthday and Christmas cards that I got the kids to make, I sent the father tomato seeds of a tomato strain that had really sweet fruit, for the 70th birthday of my MIL I made a cookbook for her that took me months, I always sent my SIL�s kids presents for their bdays and Xmas� I really tried and very little came back. We never got a thank you from anyone, not MIL, not FIL, not SIL. My H always had to ask his mother on the phone, �Did you get our package?� and MIL would say, �Oh yes, nice�. They did send presents for the kids but that was it � certainly there was no personal response to me at all. I complained about this in a letter to them a few years before we went to Europe, which put my SIL�s back up. Nothing changed. The MIL did send a couple of emails but this quickly tailed off. I had started to stop sending them stuff when my FIL got ill (he�s now well again).

When we arrived, my in laws did nothing to help us set up. I really resented this. I saw it increasingly from a Taker�s POV � here I�ve been forced to break up my happy life so that H could be with his family and those self-centred **** still do nothing. To pour fuel on this incipient inferno, my SIL started behaving in a nasty underhand manner. She�s incredibly passive-aggressive, I think she was unhappy that her brother was now so close, and she was mad at me for having dared to say in my letter from a few years back that it�s discourteous not to say thank you when people give you presents.

Finally, I told SIL off and the whole thing blew up. MIL took SIL�s side, so did FIL. FIL has since apologised to me, so has SIL�s husband. However, when I was seeking reconciliation, MIL told me that she does not consider me part of her family. She repeated it recently. That was the death knell for me. There is nothing there for me, I will never return to that village.

Meanwhile, what did H do? He sat on the fence. He kept telling his parents what I felt but did so in an impartial way that didn�t get him in trouble with them. He drew no boundaries, they kept insulting me, and things just got worse and worse. I became stressed to my eyeballs and very unhappy and every time he visited them (every 2-3 weeks), a new problem would arise and he�d bring it home with him and we�d have another round of arguments.

Finally his sister made a mistake, she dragged our eldest into the fray and it shocked H off the fence, he told his sister off roundly and she took it. But I felt like, why hasn�t he ever defended me like this?

Thereafter, MIL kept getting worse towards me and H just stood by and let it happen. Finally I almost threw H out, I said that he had to draw boundaries with his family that protected me. He understood and told his mother off, he said that if she kept carrying on like she had been, he wouldn�t visit very much anymore, and that we were going to have no contact for 2 months so that she could rethink her priorities. This was all pretty much scripted by me, though: he did what I told him, although he claims that he was starting to get there himself.

The date of recontact is set at 11 Feb, and I�m now getting awfully triggered by the fact that it is rushing towards me. I have developed something like an aversion: when I think of H going to his family�s village, I get something like a panic attack, my heart races and I feel nauseous. It�s so strong that it throws me right off balance again, I can�t sleep, I can�t eat. The last time he visited was just after he had told his mother off � it was his parents� joint bday: I had agreed that he should go with the kids and then NC would start. But it took me almost a week to calm down again. It�s incredibly strong and not accessible to reason.

Yet, my H loves his parents, and they love him. And the kids like visiting them. How on earth do we POJA this? There doesn�t seem to be an in-between option here. Either he does or he doesn�t have a relationship with his parents. I loved my own mother very much (she passed away a few years ago) and I don�t think it�s right to deny H contact with his parents. But they�ve brought so much trouble into my life in the last year, I cannot be enthusiastic about having them be part of my life again, even if it is peripherally. And my body goes crazy when I even think about this option. What do you advise?

Hi Mirabelle, welcome to Marriage Builders. I would go read Hopeful's thread, which has a similar issue.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2587918#Post2587918


Since you are not enthusiastic about this, it should be renegotiated. We have other couples here who do not have contact with their parents because these kinds of issues. It is a not a matter of you "denying" him contact with his mother, it is a matter of him voluntarily cutting off contact because his family is so destructive to your marriage.

I am hopeful that Markos and Prisca will see this thread because they are in the EXACT SAME situation and they have cut off communications with Markos' parents because of their disrespectful behavior.

The biggest mistake I see here is that you moved to his country. That one act has caused a negative domino effect on your whole marriage. I would start by re-negotiating THAT move. Read the thread I referenced to get some ideas.

Mirabelle, Markos and I are in a somewhat situation with his parents. They have both been extremely disrespectful to me, and we now have no contact with them -- it's been a couple years now since we've had any real interaction with them.

I suggest you get HNHN for Parents -- it has a GREAT section in it on dealing with disrespectful inlaws.

Your anxious feelings over the approaching day for reconnecting with them is very understandable. Recently, my inlaws contacted us, wanting to reconnect. I had horrible feelings and anxiety attacks over it. I wrote Dr. Harley, asking him what I should do, and here's what he told me:

I don't have anything specific to add. I would say however that this topic seems to be covered at least weekly on the radio show. Mira, if you haven't listened to the show, I would suggest it as you may hear Dr. Harley speak directly about the issue.

optimism

MelodyLane, I really like this point. I�m someone who makes decisions on the basis of not only what I want but what I think the other party would want. This has put me at a distinct disadvantage when negotiating with my H, who � bless him � is simply not empathetic. He doesn�t naturally see things from my perspective, he only sees his own. This means he�s not burdened with guilt for �selfish� feelings, unlike me. That guilt meant that in the �leaving Aus� situation, I�m the one who compromised, to my great disadvantage. What you wrote made me (and my H) see that it�s not my responsibility to solve the problem that my aversion to his family poses for H.

POJA is such a great construct, Dr. Harley should get a prize for coming up with something so ingenious and effective!

We spent last night discussing this issue. H said several times, �I can�t imagine not having contact with my parents anymore�, �I need them in my life�, and �I feel an obligation to them as a son�, which in the past would have made me feel guilty and would have made me reluctantly continue to expose myself to the barbs and disrespect of his family. Not anymore. I said that he had to choose � me or them, who comes first.

This morning, he read the comments of Prisca and Optimism and said that he realised he couldn�t have his cake and eat it anymore. He is prepared not to have contact with his family again. This is such a breakthrough.

I told him last night that this whole problem has arisen because he had never had my back with his family in the past: he just let them get away with it and ignored my increasingly angry comments about his family�s lack of reciprocity and interest. If he had told them much earlier that he expected them to make a bigger effort with me, all of this could have been avoided. He answered that he hadn�t wanted to �manipulate� the situation, he wanted his parents to respond genuinely to me rather than forcing them to �fake feelings� for me. To me, that�s bizarre: I have in the past immediately told my family members and friends off if they made disrespectful comments about H to me or acted in an excluding manner towards him. I think what really motivated H�s hands-off attitude was a combination of �hoping things will improve by themselves�, �a feelings of solidarity� with his family (yes, solidarity against ME � how charming!), and �respect� for his parents. These are all also points he raised last night. I know it�s probably a DJ but I said that his lack of action was cowardly. He should have ACTED, not left it to me, a rank outsider, to battle it out with his family.

Well, as Dr. Harley says, rehashing the past is pointless (although in this case it was helpful for us to look back and see where we went wrong), we�ve got to move forward, and thanks to you, MelodyLane and Prisca, we�ve made a huge stride forward overnight!

H�s position now is that he would like to keep seeing his family but my feelings come first. My position is that I am willing to contemplate that he has limited contact with his family but that this is conditional on his mother�s attitude: if I hear � even sniff - one more DJ from her corner, it�s all over. H, armed with the knowledge that he must act now, is writing her a direct and frank letter that spells out the consequences that will ensue if she maintains her present attitude.

Beyond PoJA, Mira, you should also look at the Policy of Radical Honesty.

When you "compromised" you failed to be radically honest with your husband - which allowed him to gain while you lost. This is a practice which must end in all aspects of your marriage for the both of you, and is really the life-blood of PoJA.

Empathy is a great tool for one to have, but not necessary when one implements the Policy of Radical Honesty and PoJA. Using these two policies to guide your decisions, all one spouse needs to know is that the other is not in enthusiastic agreement with a decision. Empathizing with it is sort of irrelevant.

It was very interesting to read Hoping�s thread, and I found SugarCane�s advice therein particularly helpful: �Dr and Mrs Harley are from California. I believe they grew up there; certainly he says that both sets of parents lived there and were available to babysit when Dr Harley's children were young.

I think the move to Minnesota happened because a friend or colleague asked him to run a clinic - or chain of clinics - there.

Mrs Harley did not want to move, but he negotiated with her. She had a few very strong objections, and I think the distance from family and the climate were two of them. He asked her to give moving a try for a period of time (I can't remember; three months, perhaps, at the outset). If she found that period tolerable, then they could negotiate another three months.

He made a promise that if after some time (again, I can't remember; either at any time at all, or after the first three months) Mrs Harley wanted to go back to California, he would agree without hesitation. He said that they kept their house in California for that reason, and they still own it today.

As it turned out, Mrs Harley has never wanted to back to California, because there were enough things that benefitted them in Minnesota to make her enthusiastic about staying (good friends, schools etc). However, she still has the absolute right to move them back there immediately.�

The issue of moving to Europe has now been POJA�d to our mutual satisfaction (with the help of MB). My H has offered repeatedly to return to Aus, starting with the day before he was to leave Aus to find us a house in Europe. He is horrified at the damage to my life and happiness that was caused by his selfish behaviour.

I�ve decided to see if I can make it work here. Like Mrs. Harley, I see that there are good things here too. The people here (we live in France near the German border) are very nice and the kids are happy.

Also, I am not a romantic, I know that returning to Aus would mean starting there again too. Unlike Dr. and Mrs. Harley, who had a house in California, we were never able to buy a house in Aus because when we arrived there, the whole country was in the grip of a relentless housing boom that is only now starting to sag. So we don�t really have a base to return to there. And frankly, I�m tired of being an (Un)happy Wanderer.

Thank you, Prisca. It was very validating for me to hear your story and that of Mrs. Harley. I had felt like I was being weak for getting so agitated about the impending recontact. I, and my H, see now that it is simply indicating the end of the line, and it forced us to seek help. We are so glad I contacted MB. Thank you very much for your advice. I am going to order the book you recommended.

hank you, Optimism, I will start to listen to the radio show.

I agree completely, Holdherhand. H and I both see where we stuffed up. The fact that POJA removes the need for empathy is what makes it so powerful, especially for couples where one is more empathetic than the other. POJA gives permission to be a Taker as well as a Giver - I think a lot of people like me need to be overtly given that permission because it doesn't come naturally to them or because they've been socialised to not be "selfish".

I did want to add one point here. I did fight strenuously not to leave Aus for Europe. This was an unending battle that went on for many years. I am a naturally radically honest person (which gets me in trouble a lot, although my H likes it), I am definitely not afraid to state my opinion. However, I simply could NOT get through to H. After a fight, he'd be all bright and happy the next day and later I would realise that from everything I had said during the argument, he only remembered the bits where I agreed about the limitations of Aus (ie the comments that validated his determination to go back to Europe). Every fight went the same way, and I tried to approach the issue from many angles. I even, without not knowing anything about POJA then, tried to POJA the situation by suggesting Canada as a middle option: he would be closer to his family that way (an 8 hour flight rather than a 30 hour trip) and I would be in an English-speaking culture, which would be easier for me. He dismissed this out of hand, he thought it was a ridiculous idea. It'd be too cold for you, he said, you'd hate it. The whole situation would have made a stone weep with frustration. When you're confronted with this kind of wilful deafness for so long, it becomes an inevitability that one has to give in. It took almost losing me before H finally started to understand.

QFT

Yes, this is a DJ.
And you need to be very careful here.
Although your husband did not protect you in the past, it does not give you the right to abuse him over it.
And you don't gain anything from doing it, long term.
He is about to cut off contact with his family for you. Even though it is the right thing to do, because you SHOULD come first, it is still a painful thing for him to do.
Support him. Don't make it more difficult for him.

You can talk about the past, btw, without DJs. Markos and I do it all the time.

This is wonderful Good job on both your parts.

Mirabelle, you and your H would greatly benefit from Harley's book Lovebusters!

You are right, Prisca, in all that you say. I will be supportive, I love him, I don't want him to be hurt. I'm still hoping that he doesn't have to give up his parents, I think that would be terribly sad. I hope that MIL will get such a fright from H's letter than she will cease and desist, and that over time I will be able to view his visits to his family with equanimity. I read his letter to his mother this afternoon, and I almost immediately got the panicky choking feelings again. It's like black magic. The thought of the possible outcomes of sending the letter also agitates me. WTH, I used to be such a feisty person, now a little old lady can make me shiver in my shoes! Perhaps knowing now that H is protecting me, which makes me feel safer, will elicit a change in my physiology somehow. I hope so, for him and for me and the kids.

I will order that one too! Is there a section in there about how to deal with The Wall? I have come to realise that this is the cause of all of the troubles you�ve been hearing about.

The Wall is what I encounter when I talk to H about contentious issues: he does not listen. He simply does not process in a meaningful way what I am saying. It seems to go in one ear and out the other. It�s been the cause of repeated arguments, often about the same topic. It�s really frustrating. I know other people have encountered this as well. Some of his friends joke that they initially disliked H when they first met him because they thought he was bullheaded and arrogant in debate. So I don�t think this problem is specific to me or due to some peculiar dynamic in our marriage.

In the beginning of our relationship (which started with a 2 year friendship), we argued about politics. I noticed we kept having EXACTLY the same arguments. He would say what he thought and that was that. Everything I said in opposition was countered with what I call �dead-end alley statements�, where he basically repeated himself and showed no understanding of what I said. I would end up getting angry, he would retaliate and then it�d be on for young and old.

Then I read about the concept of active listening and explained it to H. It worked. He realised that he didn�t have to agree with me but he did have to show me that he heard what I was saying and understood it. We stopped arguing about Israel and Palestine and whatever and we even came to agree with aspects of what the other said. This approach also works with other smaller issues, like whether he despises a movie I love, or vice versa.

Nice job. After that, however, the subjects of serious argument became H�s family and his desire to live in Europe. H seemed to be unable to apply active listening. I think for two reasons: first, because the arguments dealt not with considered, fact-based opinions but with my feelings, and second, because my feelings directly opposed his self-interests and so he was not interested in giving them any air. The consequence was, again, heated arguments that went nowhere.

It was crushingly frustrating. I consider myself a relatively emotionally intelligent person, I generally understand my feelings, and I am articulate. However, no matter how carefully I analysed and articulated my feelings, H either ignored what I was saying, or stymied me with dead-end alley statements, or he actively minimised and downgraded how I felt. And occasionally, when I became too persistent and forceful, he resorted to denigration. Which raised my temperature no end, led to DJs between us, and ultimately side-tracked me from my objective of getting him to understand my feelings.

This pattern has had disastrous effects, as you know. What is going on here, and how can I/we protect our relationship from any further problems of this nature?

If you both go through the book, Lovebusters, you will find that you are both engaging in behaviors that lead to fights. I see several disrespectful judgments from you in this post alone. And you probably don't realize the impact they have. My H and I used to argue about politics and it was a disaster to our marriage. It made our time together so unpleasant. So we stopped that and we stopped all fighting.

You could really benefit from that book. In fact, I would do the lessons in it before you do the lessons in HNHN.

Here is what Harley says about disrespectful judgements:

here

Right now it seems to you that your DH contact with his parents has to be all or nothing. What if there was something in between? What if you and your DH could take baby steps with checkpoints along the way?

What if you could talk to your husband about the ideal end goal about him and his parents? Let;s say that you ideally would like him, you and your kids to have a relationship with his family. Ideally you would like to see them once every two months (use your family as a guide...if they lived nearby, how often would you want to see them hypothetically?). Ideally you would want him to be a team with you and have unified opinions. Ideally if there were differences he would side with his marriage as a default.

So how can you get there?
The first thing you both did is let his family know you are serious about boundaries. You cut off contact for a period.

He has to let them know what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. No MIL saying you are not part of the family. No putting you down. No saying one thing and doing another. What are the consequences of them doing those things? You/he leave immediately.

Also you might need to A) read up on cultural difference between Germans and your nationality B) not expect so much.
I lived in Germany...Germans take a looooong time to create a close relationship. You may have been trying to send them presents and what not to prime the relationship but it hasn't worked. Try to find out from your husband what his mom responds to...clearly it isn't presents!
Also if you come across as "Germany sucks" and "Why didn't you help me move" then they may be a bit prickly when it comes to you.

But what can you do as baby steps?

Maybe the first time your husband sees his family is not in their village but in a neutral site.

Maybe he starts off with a phone call.