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Mankind was given free will.

No one has to forgive and they can stay mad forever.
No one has to stay mad and they choose to forgive everything.

All fit some where within those parameters.

Is it right for a WS to take the easy way and have an affair?

Is it right for a BS to take the easy way and refuse forgiveness?

Is it right for the BS that refused to meet their WS needs before the affair to fight to recover their marraige?

Is it right for the WS that refused to fight to fix their marriage before the affair to fight for recovery?

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Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Mankind was given free will.

No one has to forgive and they can stay mad forever.
No one has to stay mad and they choose to forgive everything.

All fit some where within those parameters.

Is it right for a WS to take the easy way and have an affair?

Is it right for a BS to take the easy way and refuse forgiveness?

Is it right for the BS that refused to meet their WS needs before the affair to fight to recover their marraige?

Is it right for the WS that refused to fight to fix their marriage before the affair to fight for recovery?


I do believe in forgivness. I do not believe forgiveness dictates the wronged person must restore a relationship with the person who wronged them.

And forgiveness in some cases is really more for the forgiver's peace of mind than for the person who did you wrong. It is 'letting go.'

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Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
Originally Posted By: TheRoad
Mankind was given free will.

No one has to forgive and they can stay mad forever.
No one has to stay mad and they choose to forgive everything.

All fit some where within those parameters.

Is it right for a WS to take the easy way and have an affair?

Is it right for a BS to take the easy way and refuse forgiveness?

Is it right for the BS that refused to meet their WS needs before the affair to fight to recover their marraige?

Is it right for the WS that refused to fight to fix their marriage before the affair to fight for recovery?


I do believe in forgivness. I do not believe forgiveness dictates the wronged person must restore a relationship with the person who wronged them.

And forgiveness in some cases is really more for the forgiver's peace of mind than for the person who did you wrong. It is 'letting go.'


In other words (not to make this a circular discussion)...

Free will

Good post TheRoad


Every man I meet is in some way my superior; and in that I can learn of him.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson


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I feel absolutely no free will. I have children who upon conception became my responsibility to see through to a certain age with financial and other support which supercedes any free will.

Freewill could dictate a revenge affair when omw suggested we have a date over the summer. Free will could have suggested I pack my stuff and go. Free will could allow me an independent life yet living at at home with the cheater. Free will would let me go thru life with the same sub par marriage maybe without her dating another man, but the same ho hum situation as before.

I have none of the freewill as I've made a commitment to my kids who in turn have made trying to work out this marriage with my wife the best route for me. That is why building a love and respect for her using the techniques described in these books makes sense to me. And, it takes time.


Life keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping into the fuuuu-ture.
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Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I feel absolutely no free will. I have children who upon conception became my responsibility to see through to a certain age with financial and other support which supercedes any free will.

Freewill could dictate a revenge affair when omw suggested we have a date over the summer. Free will could have suggested I pack my stuff and go. Free will could allow me an independent life yet living at at home with the cheater. Free will would let me go thru life with the same sub par marriage maybe without her dating another man, but the same ho hum situation as before.

I have none of the freewill as I've made a commitment to my kids who in turn have made trying to work out this marriage with my wife the best route for me. That is why building a love and respect for her using the techniques described in these books makes sense to me. And, it takes time.


All that said.....you still choose the path you are on.

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Roaddogg,

Wouldn't this have been better under Other Topics?

Making a commitment does not invalidate free will, free will instead validates commitment.

It means that you freely chose every moment to fulfill your commitment, and you freely chose the very moment you break it, and every moment you continue to break it.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Roaddogg,

Wouldn't this have been better under Other Topics?

Making a commitment does not invalidate free will, free will instead validates commitment.

It means that you freely chose every moment to fulfill your commitment, and you freely chose the very moment you break it, and every moment you continue to break it.


I guess this all makes sense to some people... Not for those of us who don't believe in absolute free will though...

Free to act according to our natures? Ok, I will buy that..

CV


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Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
[quote=HoldHerHand]Roaddogg,

Wouldn't this have been better under Other Topics?

Making a commitment does not invalidate free will, free will instead validates commitment.

It means that you freely chose every moment to fulfill your commitment, and you freely chose the very moment you break it, and every moment you continue to break it.



Its murky water for me, CV.

You see, I can't wrap my mind around how God can know all, and at the same time that all would not then be pre-determined. If an omniscient God already knows every decision you will ever make, then you cannot ever possibly make another decision other than that which is already known - thus free will does not exist.

So, is it predetermined that I believe in free will, or did I choose to believe it?


Originally Posted By: CelticVoyager
I guess this all makes sense to some people... Not for those of us who don't believe in absolute free will though...

Free to act according to our natures? Ok, I will buy that..

CV

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 02/05/12 12:50 AM.

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: HoldHerHand
Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
[quote=HoldHerHand]Roaddogg,

Wouldn't this have been better under Other Topics?

Making a commitment does not invalidate free will, free will instead validates commitment.

It means that you freely chose every moment to fulfill your commitment, and you freely chose the very moment you break it, and every moment you continue to break it.



Its murky water for me, CV.

You see, I can't wrap my mind around how God can know all, and at the same time that all would not then be pre-determined. If an omniscient God already knows every decision you will ever make, then you cannot ever possibly make another decision other than that which is already known - thus free will does not exist.

So, is it predetermined that I believe in free will, or did I choose to believe it?


Originally Posted By: CelticVoyager
I guess this all makes sense to some people... Not for those of us who don't believe in absolute free will though...

Free to act according to our natures? Ok, I will buy that..

CV


ARRRGH!!! wink I gotta finish Sunday School before I need to wake up. Let me post some thoughts on this after church tomorrow.

Back to calvin's corner...

CV


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[t/j]: Mike, I think you may have mixed up the notion of "free will" with the notion of freedom from consequences.

Even "free" choices have consequences, whether pro or con. [end t/j]

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Short of recapping the plotline of "Bruce Almighty", let me just note that this consideration is as old as man's internalization of the concepts of life, death (his own), good, evil, and options of action.

What the discussion ultimately boils down to is how to balance the mindsets of "It is God's will", "Let go, let God", and "W-W-J-D?", one one side, and "God helps those who helps themselves", on the other.

What cannot be permitted, of course, is the imposition by any person, of the correct choice on another.

1) Mandating the fatalist position is corrupted by the acknowledgement that the God-reference in the quotes above becames the expert-reference which renders the idea moot. "W-W-NG-D?" is palpably ridiculous. (Although I kinda like the idea!)

2) Dogmatically imposing the more libertarian second ideology is patently oxymoronic, as "helping myself" would certainly include the extension "...by rejecting/modifying your doctrine to better suit my situation".

And that's as intellectually rigorous as I can get on Super Bowl Sunday!

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Originally Posted By: SmilingWoman
Originally Posted By: MikeStillSmiling
I feel absolutely no free will. I have children who upon conception became my responsibility to see through to a certain age with financial and other support which supercedes any free will.

Freewill could dictate a revenge affair when omw suggested we have a date over the summer. Free will could have suggested I pack my stuff and go. Free will could allow me an independent life yet living at at home with the cheater. Free will would let me go thru life with the same sub par marriage maybe without her dating another man, but the same ho hum situation as before.

I have none of the freewill as I've made a commitment to my kids who in turn have made trying to work out this marriage with my wife the best route for me. That is why building a love and respect for her using the techniques described in these books makes sense to me. And, it takes time.


All that said.....you still choose the path you are on.


Yes you have free will you choose to stay for your kids. Glad you did stay but you were not forced you chose.

Anyway I gave four questions and I am disappointed that people are not answering any of those four questions.

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I think it's the terminology - let's say we have free will - that doesn't confer any "rightness" to any choice.

I know it was wrong to have an affair. But can I say that it is wrong for broken not to forgive me? If I say that, whether by attempting to support my position with Christian doctrine or pop culture's idea that "forgiveness is not for the other guy, it's for you," then aren't I perilously close to trying to "educate" him, which is a DJ?

He can never forgive me his whole life through, and that is his prerogative. I can "wish" he would forgive me, but read my siggy. not much value in wishing.

As to whether it is "right" for either the BS, who may have failed to meet needs pre-A, or the WS, who failed to try to "fix" the M pre-A, to fight to save their M...I suppose that all depends on the value a person places on the M in question and the institution of marriage in general.

If Dr. H is correct in saying that his plan can create a romantic relationship between any husband and wife - even a couple who seems incompatible - then if a FWS or BS places a high value on marriage, the choice seems pretty straightforward. If you tell me that I can have the M of my dreams with broken if only we follow this plan? Shoot, I'm sold. I value him; I value being M to him.

But, as FWS, we demonstrated in the past that we didn't value the M, because of the choice we made - the choice we made of our own free will. My past actions demonstrated to broken that I didn't value him. Now, that doesn't make any future choice made by the BS any more or less valid, b/c the choice they make is theirs, just as much as the choice we made to have an A was ours.

So, I make the choice now to value my M, but it has no bearing on the choices that broken made since DDay. *I* may be sold 100% on wanting a romantic M with broken, b/c he is the one I want to be with, but I can't force him to choose me...no more than I forced him to choose me when he asked me out on our first date 19 years ago, no more than I forced him to choose me when he asked me to marry him.

broken was committed to being M for life, that was the choice he made...but my choice may very well have invalidated his choice to be married to me, b/c I proved myself to NOT be the woman he originally chose.

I think I have gotten to the point where I have confused myself with my own post and need another cup of coffee...but one parting thought:

I'd also argue that some of the free will/predestination debate relates to some earlier posts we've had on internal vs. external locus of control. If we believe that every action is predestined, I'd argue that we had an external locus of control. Free will and having power over one's choices argues for an internal locus of control.


FWW

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
Short of recapping the plotline of "Bruce Almighty", let me just note that this consideration is as old as man's internalization of the concepts of life, death (his own), good, evil, and options of action.

What the discussion ultimately boils down to is how to balance the mindsets of "It is God's will", "Let go, let God", and "W-W-J-D?", one one side, and "God helps those who helps themselves", on the other.

What cannot be permitted, of course, is the imposition by any person, of the correct choice on another.

1) Mandating the fatalist position is corrupted by the acknowledgement that the God-reference in the quotes above becames the expert-reference which renders the idea moot. "W-W-NG-D?" is palpably ridiculous. (Although I kinda like the idea!)

2) Dogmatically imposing the more libertarian second ideology is patently oxymoronic, as "helping myself" would certainly include the extension "...by rejecting/modifying your doctrine to better suit my situation".

And that's as intellectually rigorous as I can get on Super Bowl Sunday!


Except the predestinarian position isn't fatalism. There is a clear distinction between the two.


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Originally Posted By: wulffpack_girl

I'd also argue that some of the free will/predestination debate relates to some earlier posts we've had on internal vs. external locus of control. If we believe that every action is predestined, I'd argue that we had an external locus of control. Free will and having power over one's choices argues for an internal locus of control.


I think this is a common misconception with the freewill/predestination debate. True predestinarians (calvinists or whatever you want to call us) don't say that we don't make real choices or aren't free. What it really says is there's 2 natures... Sin nature (old man if you will) and new man (the redeemed nature). With the first, we are free to act, but only according to our nature (which is sinful), because the old man does not seek the things of God, he never seeks to do things without the taint of whatever sin (selfishness, pride, etc..), but the redeemed man is now free NOT to sin.

He is given a new nature. Not that he is free and clear from sin, but that he is no no longer in bondage to sin.

This is the free-will argument from a calvinist/Reformed/predestinarian position. smile


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Road,

You must be asking these questions for a reason.

My belief just on the first two.

"Is it right for a WS to take the easy way and have an affair?"
No way when two people have exchanged vows. There is in my opinion no excuse, no extenuating circumstances or justification. Apparently, society today accepts this behavior as an easy 'out' for the spouse not having his/her needs met. There is an obligation to your spouse, and that is to attempt to communicate your concerns TO YOUR SPOUSE and no one else. I guess these days it's too self-fulfilling to communicate marital concerns to anyone other than a spouse. It takes guts to do it...appreently not alot of people today with alot of guts or conscience. And yes, free will is operative here.

"Is it right for a BS to take the easy way and refuse forgiveness?"
This is a tough question. In essence No, if you realize in repeating the Lord's prayer slowly. Again, this is free will. We're human tho, and none of us can or are exprected to handle betrayal as Christ did. So, simply as a human it would depend on my spouse's remorse. I am a Catholic, and I partake in the sacrament of reconciliation. I am not so naive tho to believe that anyone could go to confession and expect to be forgiven without true remorse, and more importantly the committment to amend your life! Of course you could fool the priest, but you cannot play games with God! Therefore, I dont think that God would hold it against any of us if we feel that forgiveness has to be earned.

Tom

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...predestinarian position isn't fatalism. There is a clear distinction between the two.

I bow to your expertise in this matter, CV. My only response is to acknowledge my ignorance in the vocabulary of the subject under consideration. If "predestinational" is the term I should have employed in lieu of "fatalist", I am now in possession of information I lacked previously.

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
...predestinarian position isn't fatalism. There is a clear distinction between the two.

I bow to your expertise in this matter, CV. My only response is to acknowledge my ignorance in the vocabulary of the subject under consideration. If "predestinational" is the term I should have employed in lieu of "fatalist", I am now in possession of information I lacked previously.


Hi NG!

Better men than I have spoke on this issue! If you are interested in the Reformed doctrine of predestination, here's a link:

http://www.bloomingtonrpchurch.org/refdocpre/15.htm

It may spark more questions, may answer I few. I dunno. I do know that I wonder at times where Christians who theologically do not agree with certain underlying theological beliefs fall in regards to MB.

for instance, what if I love Dr. Harley's fundamental presuppositions, but disagree with certain theological aspects of it. does that put me outside of the MB camp? For example, what if I disagree with his article on unconditional love?

I am of the stripe that theological convictions come before any other. Willing to examine a position, sure. Love being challenged on them? Absolutely. But what if after all is said and done there is still a fundamental theological disagreement with something like the above said article? Does it not affect MB enough to matter?

Some questions I am tossing around here. Probably not related, but I don't have a choice after all! smile

Maybe another thread is where to ponder these things

CV


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Originally Posted By: celticvoyager
...For example, what if I disagree with his article on unconditional love?...
Just to stir the pot further, if unconditional love makes it likelier that a sinner will persist in sin when conditionality might offer better odds of prompting a sinner (or one predisposed to sin) to stop in his/her tracks, is conditional love better than unconditional? (Not suggesting I know the answer... just kinda being ornery...)

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An interesting discussion, and one to which I would like to add my (novitiate) words.

Mind you, I only received baptism less than a year ago. I am *no* expert on the topic.

This is what my Bible reading and study have so far led me to believe:

"Free will" is really about the choice one makes to believe in and follow the Lord or not. Everything else is secondary.

But one begets everything else. If one accepts the tenets of the Bible and gives oneself to God, then everything else -- righteous living, for lack of better words -- follows.

But we are imperfect, and thus will always fall short of the ideal. Contrast this with Saul of Tarsus, who was a Pharisee -- that sect who believed they were 'holy' because they would make appropriate sacrifices and thus be 'cleansed' -- and thus be free to sin again. Saul, as we know, was transformed on the road to Damascus and became the Apostle Paul -- one of the greatest disciples of Jesus ever!

God's omniscience is to me much like me looking at an ant colony (it's a poor analogy, but the best I can think of). I might have absolute dominion over the colony; I can destroy it with the sweep of my hand if I so choose. But to the everyday working of each and every ant I care little.

The analogy is weak because unlike God, I do not know each ant's name. Nor do I know each ant's heart. But I think the analogy/metaphor works because my wish is for the ants to love me -- nothing more. I cannot force them to love me; they have to make that choice of their own free will.

OK, like I said, I'm quite the novice. There is some good reading on http://www.freewill-predestination.com/.


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
St. Francis of Assissi
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