Actually she has NOT built up a big love bank for me at all. I think that is an unfair assumption based on the fact that I have a strong level of commitment. We both have failed to meet each other EN's, the only difference is that I have been committed to our marriage and trying to love my WW and she has been wishing that she never married me and feeling trapped.

I am willing to change to meet her EN's better, but I do not have an interest in repeating our pattern of me trying/working while she doesn't. It takes 2 people to make a marriage work and I am tired of dragging my WW behind me. I need to know that she wants to be in this marriage with me.

There is no point in the relationship I am wanting to return to.

Mike - I am willing to entertain the idea of a telephone session. It may be a little difficult as we are overseas, but not impossible.

I am glad hear that you think we are showing good signs of recovery. I am also glad to see my WW on here being proactive with our relationship as it shows me that she cares. It is my hope that we can work it out but some times it really seems impossible.

Did you meet each others needs before marriage?

You say you love her. That comes from needs meeting.



Sounds like she has/does meet the need for Recreational Companionship, possibly interesting conversation...

But she would need to meet more than just that to create a feeling of love in you,

Have you both done the EN questionaire?

Yes, my WW has met some of my EN's. We did the questionnaire recently.

In the beginning of our relation my wife had greatly met my needs of affirmation and affection, which are 2 of my top 5. Soon after we were married though she stopped meeting those needs (as much) and more I heard regrets of our marriage and sorrow of losing a life that she could have lived without me. She would at times be depressed and became more critical of me.

I would say that my love bank went into the red a long time ago. I am very optimistic and I also had a very strong level of commit. That is why I stayed in the marriage, trusted my wife completely, and always planned on being with my W for life and dreamt of all the great things we would do, our kids, etc... even when things were not going well at the time. I am a dreamer at heart and can deal with a lot of problems in the present while holding out for good things in the future.

I know that I wasn't meeting a lot of my W's EN's for a long time. This was for a lot of reasons that aren't worth going into. The fact is that now I know what her emotional needs are and I want to try and meet them better than I have in the past (and I have been).

It is understandably difficult for me to meet my WW EN's at this time after her affair. After being hurt and rejected by someone so badly it is not easy to be affirming and affectionate. Honestly even when I want to try and say something nice it is like I can't - like I have an aversion to it after all the pain she has caused me.

Not that I dont want to try...

She needs to do the heavy lifting at first for that very reason and she does seem to be willing to try. When she meets a few more needs you will be more encouraged.

She mentions SF being a problem for her. Is this why things soured so soon after the marriage?

Dr H is pretty confident that these things can be resolved. I have to say though I dont know of any posters who have experience with this issue. I could be wrong though.

We can coach you with meeting her needs and give you moral support though. I would consider using the counselling centre to sort the SF issue out though.

I agree with the though that she "needs to do the heavy lifting" at first. I have been here, trying to learn, change, and work on our relationship, but things just seem so hopeless at times. After the A it is so hard for me to be in a mindset of "give, give, give", especially when my motivation for staying in the marriage is waning. I feel like my WW should put the effort in if she wants to stay in the marriage because she chose to have an A. If she does I know that I will be encouraged greatly.

I don't think the reason things soured after our marriage was due to sexual reasons. I think that more so it was the result that my wife didn't want to accept that she needed to give up things choosing to marry me. My WW doesn't like to give up things that she wants, and I think that she didn't understand that it is part of marriage, making 2 lives one. I know that I gave up many things when we got married and didn't look back. She gave up things, and did look back, and regretted, regretted, and couldn't or didn't want to get over it. I think that the A is a result of that maybe.

I have always felt like my WW has a princess mentality about a lot of things. Maybe it has to do with being the baby in the family (by many years). She has always been well provided for and always had very little responsibilities. We were friends when we were younger and we would spend time together on a regular basis. I remember one time she just told me that in essence she was sick of me, and didn't want to hang out anymore. I remember being shocked that she could be so cold about the issue, and I have seen a pattern similar where she gets "sick of people" and doesn't want to spent time with them.

My WW is starting to realize more about herself and her weaknesses and says she does want to change, which is very encouraging. But I know that talking and acting are VERY different things and have a hard time trusting what she says. I want to see action.

I don't think that our main marriage problems center around a sexual issue, but that is a product of a greater problem.

I can say that I want to meet her EN, but I feel like I almost have an aversion to it after the A. It is hard to be affirming to someone that has lied to your face, rejected you and caused you more pain than anyone or anything else has. Affirmation and affection are what she needs now I think, and I am having a hard time giving it.

No, no no! Sacrifice is very bad for a marriage.

You should NOT give, give, give - who told you that you should?

What is it your wife has had to give up? Why do you think she should be making sacrifices for you?

I was concerned to read on your wife's thread that you do not practice POJA. You both are trying to do an MB recovery without using one of MB's most basic principles - POJA means to never be the cause of your spouse's unhappiness - to never ask them to do something they are unenthusiastic about.

If your wife is being asked to do things she is unhappy about, she will not stay in love with you and vice versa.

I have linked the POJA article for you to read, but there is a larger issue if you have not read this basic concept. You both seem to be going about recovery in a very haphazard fashion. You need a PLAN. I would either do an online course here where you can get an accountability coach or counsel with the Harleys - you are overlooking important things trying to do this on your own,

POJA � the Policy of Joint Agreement <~~~ LINK

Have you read Surviving An Affair?

Yes we have read surviving an affair. We have read through all of the basic concepts.

We are familiar with the POJA my wife just didn't understand the abbreviation.

It seems like you are very quick to make judgements about our situation without knowing the facts. I appreciate that you are willing to share your point of view, but to say that we don't understand the basic concepts and are haphazard about our recovery because my wife didn't understand one of the many strange abbreviations is a bit of a stretch.

Marriage is about sacrifice. We are both asked to not do things that we want to do that will hurt the other person. That is part of POJA. If we both just did what we wanted to do without regard of the other person (which is what I was referring to in my previous post), it would be (and has been as seen in the A) very very destructive.

It is the difference between the taker and the giver, and marriage cannot work if one person is always in the mode of the taker. There needs to be negotiation in the POJA, and in any negotiation there is always compromise, which is another word for sacrifice.

Lets say that my wife always wanted to live in a community situation with a few of her girl friends. There is not a way to do this that would be healthy for our marriage, nor a way to do this that we would both be enthusiastic about - so she can't do it. Sacrifice.

Lets say my wife wants to have a close friendship with another male. She wants to be able to hang out with him or do activities with him alone. There is not way to do this that would be good for our marriage or that I would be enthusiastic about - so she can't do it. Sacrifice.

Both of the above situations have occurred in the past. To say that if my wife if prohibited from doing something that she wants to do will make her "not stay in love with me" is ludicrous.

Your statement - "I was concerned to read on your wife's thread that you do not practice POJA" is pretty out of line. And you automatically assume (posted on my W's thread) that neither of us read the policy? Seriously, just coming to this website its not easy to understand all the abbreviations.

Glad to hear it. That was worrying.



You misunderstand POJA if you think so.



True but you are supposed to take it one step further after that. You have to push through until you come up with something you are both enthusiastic about.



Yes! But it cannot work in the mode of the giver either. The giver is destructive in a different way. The giver also insists on sacrifice.




No. The end result should satisfy both giver AND taker for both spouses even if the original request cannot be met.



Negotiation - yes. But the negotiation is supposed to end in enthusiastic agreement - NEVER compromise. Compromise is just another word for sacrifice, which POJA is designed to avoid.

It would really help if you gave a real example. What kind of things is your wife unhappy about giving up?

What compromises do you consider have helped?

Yes these are excellent examples of things your giver should not have given in to. Brilliant stuff.

POJA does not end there though. How did you continue the negotiations here to ensure it did not result in a sacrifice for your wife?

For example, she wants to hang out with the male because he likes to do x activity, which you do not. You sensibly say you are not enthusiastic about the activity, so you cannot agree to do it in his stead as you would resnt it. Does this mean your wife just has to sacrifice? Course not.

Brainstorming solutions could see you
1) Coming up with an activity you both like
2) Agreeing for her to do it with a female friend


Of course POJA relies on radical honesty so your wife would have to tell you the reasons she wanted to hang out with this man. If it was for recreational companionship, the above solution would apply. If it was for his admiration of her, she would have to be honest, putting you in a position to consider supplying hte admiration instead.

Hope this helps.

Yes I remember! I was particularly puzzled by POSOW (piece of sht other woman and KISA (knight in shining armour). Just shout out and we will help.

You may have already seen this but I have posted this on your W's thread -

If you click on Forums, then Notable Posts, then Announcements, you will see a full list of abbreviations and acronyms. We use them quite a lot around here!

Welcome! By the way

Z, is it fair to say that a prob with honesty from your W has caused hiccups with POJA in the past? I.e. her not telling you problems in a simple honest way, rather she decides to solve them with independent behaviour (like having an A). Its massively common with waywards who expect the BS to be a mind reader. What do you think?

I mention this because you discussed skipping exposure. Exposure is a really good way to ensure honesty in your new start. Exposure makes your wife accountable. Where are you up to with exposure?

If your W was truly committed to your M, she wouldn't want to do that in the first place.

Indiegirl - yeah, I would say that honesty and openness has been a major problem with POJA in the past. There have also be disrespectful judgements on my half (probably hers too). There are a lot of bad behaviors and habits that feed off each other and it is hard to "start over" with out those coming up again.

In terms of exposure - done. There was a great exposure soon after the disclosure, so I wouldn't say that I skipped it. We just didn't tell my parents and her father for reasons mentioned about. My parents now know.

Where are you with exposure?