I�m new to this forum and am wondering where the line is between a person who has angry outburst and uses disrespectful judgements and a person who is emotionally and verbally abusive. I am struggling in my marriage right now. I feel like I have tried very hard to be a good wife and meet my husband�s needs for 11 years. I know there are times when I will react defensively, but usually I will do what I can to keep the peace. Are these situations where I should react differently? I know that it takes two people to create a difficult marriage, but I�ve tried so hard to make him happy that I�ve allowed him to be disrespectful and mean to me.

We were having a fine day, had gone out to lunch together with youngest, had a nice time. We were at the hardware store to buy paint. 4 year old was asleep in the back seat so I was going in to the store alone. He wanted to write a list so I grabbed a piece of paper out of the console. Before I got it he told me to make sure I saw where it came from so I could put it back. Wrote the list, went to put the paper back, before I even got it where I was going to put it he flips out. He starts telling me I�m putting it in the wrong place, I was going to pull out the files to make sure it got where it needed to go but he�s swearing about how I don�t f**n listen so I just open the door and get out, as I do he says how I just don�t give a s**t then I shut the door. I go into the store and have to go into the restroom to cry for a minute and compose myself. A few minutes later he calls on the cell to clarify something and its like nothing happened.

A guy was loading our trailer with a tractor. He put something in a place Hubby didn�t want it. I said it�ll be fine and didn�t tell the guy that it needed to be moved so H got mad and told me how he�s tired of people not f**n listening to him. I walk a few steps off trying not to cry. Then he says to me �you don�t like me, do you?� That�s his favorite line after he does something that is rude or mean to me. That and �I don�t care if you don�t like me.�

There are times when I really love him, but they are fewer and farther between lately. There are lots of times where he is fun to be around and loving and nice and thoughtful. But then there are times where it doesn�t matter what you do he yells and curses. He curses at the children regularly-there are 5 kids between the ages of 4 and 10. Calls them sob�s, tells them to clean the f**g car out before they come in the house, curses when they accidently step on his toes while walking by. There are times when I yell at the kids too, but never swear at them. I have asked him repeatedly to stop doing this. It seems like I spend the majority of my time worrying about him getting angry about something. I will tiptoe around and walk on eggshells just to avoid upsetting him. I try to contain the kids so they won�t have to be yelled at. I will cover for them if they forget to do something they were asked to do. I will warn them to be good or hurry up and do something before daddy finds out.

Hubby believes that kids need to be physically punished for certain things. After one incident with our 8 yr old girl I told him that I disagreed with the way he handled things. He got angry at me and accused me of not caring if our kids grow up to be bad. I told him that I think it�s okay to reprimand her and I agree that the behaviour is wrong and needs to be corrected, but take away privileges, or yell but not hit her. He responded by telling me all about how I don�t back him up in his parenting and how I�m not supporting him and how I�ve been selfish lately. At one point he threatened to smash the computer (I don�t remember specifically why, but I know its because he thinks it�s important to me, in the past he did destroy a laptop so I know he�ll do it if he�s mad enough, but he hasn�t done anything like that in probably 5 years). I ended up telling him that I don�t agree with what he did, but I don�t want to fight. He thinks that because he is hitting them with the intention of disciplining and teaching them something important that it is okay. He was horribly beaten and mentally abused as a child and says that he isn�t even close to doing what his dad did to him. He says that if they are doing something that could hurt someone he will hit them in order to teach them, no matter what my opinion is. A little bit later I asked him what I�ve been selfish about and he said �That bothered you, did it?� but never did give me an answer.

There is so much more I could write about, but really I�m just wondering if you all think that this is a marriage that could be fixed, or if I have waited to long and ingrained too many bad habits to break the cycle? I�ve asked Hubby before about marriage counseling and he won�t participate.

Sorry this is so long! But I'm looking forward to some feedback.

Cam keel, welcome to Marriage Builders. So sorry you are in this situation. Your husband is extremely abusive and is destroying the love in your marriage. I would go read the newsletter in the newsletter section titled When to Call it Quits. I think you should follow Dr Harley's advice in it.

Part 11 http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit2.html

I agree with MelodyLane. You and your children are being verbally and emotionally abused. My ex-husband was emotionally abusive so it sounds very familiar. Abuse always escalates and my ex was not as bad as yours when the children were that young. I, too, have five children and I wish I had ended my marriage sooner.

The book "The verbally abusive relationship" by Patricia Evans was extremely helpful in clarifying what was "over the line" in my former marriage. I was married to a man who sounds just like your husband for 12 years. Another thing that helped was talking to someone from a Crisis Intervention (domestic abuse) hotline. She really helped me see my marriage more clearly. Also read the links suggested from this site. You don't want your kids growing up thinking that this is what marriage looks like.

Welcome to MB. I just wanted to chime in here on the parenting .. i also agree about NOt hitting the children .. unless it is warrented. Children these days seem to be over stimulated and i discovered Here is what I would do and maybe your hubby might agree.

In my home .. my children get a "time out" if they misbehave. This Time out is 1 min per year of age. They are told one time what they are being sent there for and are told also that time out starts when they are quiet. At the end of time out i ask them why they were put in time out. IF they cant tell me .. they stay in time out again for another duration but calmly reminded why again. I repeat this process until the point is gotten across to them. If they get too many timeouts or do not comply or repeat the issue .. i empty their room of all their entertainment (toys, video games) and pile them into my basement. THEN what happens next is they earn one toy back per day of good behaviour. If they back pedal a day .. you back pedal the toys back into the basement and repeat the time out process. The child has to have a good day (no time outs) to recieve a toy at the END of the day and if the next day they end up in time out .. they lose the toy from the previous day and start over again. Eventually the bad behaviours are curbed as they want to earn their things back. In fact doing it like this will also show you what their favorite things are and you will discover whats not important to them and downsize the amount of toys in their room. For my wife and I, we did this to my daughter who is now 13 (we did it to her when she was about 8 when we caught her in some petty lies but had to follow through) and we did itto my son when he was 5 after recieveing a report card from his kindergarden teacher that he was disruptive in class for the other students (he was great acedmeicly but disrupted others when he was finished). Both of them benifited greatly from this(no more lies and they respond with YES DAD usually after i say something once now... and are better kids now because of it.

Have you read the concepts on the site? I would suggest you get the book "LOVE BUSTERS" and "HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS for PARENTS" after doing some research on the site and learning a bit about how this program works. YOur marriage is VERY fixable.. will just take some patience and some due dilligence.

In regards to the abuse .. i had read somewhere that many times people are addicted to the adrenalin of their anger without knowing it.. so the neuropathways of your brain are used to responding in a certain way ... maybe your hubby would be interested in coming here?

I would DEF not tolerate his abusive strategies any longer. They are withdrawing massive love bank units ... maybe tell him that? that his yelling and swearing are wearing down your love for him and that you found a way to both get what you need from the marriage and ask if he is willing to try out this program for a time?

Keep posting ... and asking questions. There is TONS of support here.

MNG

Camkeetai, disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts are abusive.

Thank you all for your comments. I guess I do know he is being abusive or I wouldn't be asking the question. I don't know how to go about fixing things. I have spoken to him in the past about changing. I left him for a couple of weeks shortly after our youngest was born. He was being extremely verbally abusive at that point and I had a lot of other stuff going on. I was unfaithful during the time I was gone. He said he could forgive me and has not brought that up at all, but it's something that makes me feel like I'm not in a position to judge him. He told me he would change, and he did make a real effort for a few years, but he has gone back to being angry at the world and mean to everyone around him.

There is always an excuse for his behavior. It is always because somebody else did something. He holds grudges against everyone who has ever wronged him in his life and will bring up events that happened 30 years ago and be just as angry telling it as if it just happened-and he has had some pretty crappy thing happen to him. I don't want to tear our family apart. I'm a little afraid to say anything because he'll be angry- but he's angry anyway so I guess that isn't really a reason. The times he is the worst is when he is stressed out so it doesn't seem fair to add to his stress. And he has a way of turning it around so things are always my fault. I'm rambling, but how do I bring these issues to his attention in a loving non-threatening way that will still help this situation? I've talked to him about doing a marriage course or something, but it never happens. I've done my own searching and made changes to the way I respond to his verbal attacks, but they are still devastating to me and the kids when they happen.

I am not a vet .. but this is very vital info. Part of the reason why he may be so angry is that he has not ever really gotten over your unfaithfulness. he may say it .. but he could or maybe not being truthful to you about how he feels about it.

I will let the vets chime in here a bit more as this unfolds .. however .. I would start by reading all you can on the site .. then get the books is suggested. The thing is you cant change him .. you can only work on you and show him the way. ... your here .. so we can help you with that ..

read ... and ask questions ...

MNG

Cam, I would separate from him for at least a year and only agree to come back when he has successfully mastered anger management classes. Otherwise, you will be dealing with this for life.

I would FIRST write him a love letter telling him how very unhappy you are and ask him to do something TANGIBLE about his anger problem, such as attend an anger management course. Give him a chance to do this. If he does not change within a couple of weeks, then separate from him.

It might take you time to arrange a separation and you will probably need to get a legal separation that protects your legal interests. But you need to do something, Cam.

He will not change unless you change.

p.s. my H used to have angry outbursts and what stopped him was Dr Harley telling him to go to anger management classes in 2007.

He has had a few outbursts in that time and I have dealt with it immediately and FIRMLY. I told him to take me home NOW because I did not want to be with him. You should do this too. Don't tolerate his anger anymore.

I agree ML!

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moderator's note: DO NOT PUT THIS POST BACK UP AGAIN!! This post has been removed several times because it is in violation of our TOS. Do not post it again!

I don't think you are familiar with the various different approaches to anger management. Some are effective, some are ineffective and merely reinforce the anger.

Dr. Harley's position is that if a husband or wife can't stop the angry outbursts, they need to go through an effective program of anger management, and that during that time if their anger is violent there needs to be a separation so that relapses do not endanger the spouse.

I was never once told in anger management that my angry sentiment was justified.

Perhaps you should start a new thread in other topics if you want to discuss how your opinion of anger management differs from Dr. Harley's.

A reminder to posters that the purpose of this forum is to discuss Dr. Harley's views, not your personal philosophies. If you can help this poster with MB concepts, then feel free to post. Otherwise, refrain from posting!

staytogether, I know you think you're helping, but could the rest of us who have different philosophies about helping people have the right to be left alone on this site, which Dr. Harley has provided for that purpose? Do we really deserve constant harassment and invasions by those who think they know better and want to argue and disrupt? Can't we all just leave each other alone? A peaceful parting of the ways? There are plenty of people in the world who need help, and they can all voluntarily choose where to go.

This topic is wandering from its original purpose. Let's get back on topic or this thread will be locked.

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