I try to keep that in mind...
thanks MNG

I HATE HIM! I HATE HIM! I HATE HIM! I HATE HIM! I HATE HIM!
GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Fri night he started to show signs that he was kind of getting it. he says to me "so I guess your not going to let me go out gaming tonight with friends hunh?" I thought about it for a minute, and as much bitterness was wrapped in that statement I thought maybe I should let him go so if nothing else he set things straight with his friends, but I put a condition on it. "If you want to go out that fine as long as 3 things are met.
1. dishes need to get done(this is a huge sore spot for us because I'm not capable of doing them right now, and he hates doing them with a fierce passion)
2. you spend some quality time with the kids before you go
3. since this is taking away from our potential UA time you need to come up with a plan and figure out how and when we're going to make it up over the weekend."
he agreed
He came down and did the dishes, sat down with the kids for 5 minutes, got them involved in a couple of games, and then left. You cant do that with kids this young!!!! they need guidance to learn how to play the games!!! he gave the 2 yrs old a shapes and colours game... how is he supposed to know what to do with it unless you're there each step of the way????
I tried to blow it off and whatever... at least he did the dishes. maybe tomorrow will be a better day.. HA!

Saturday....
It started with breakfast, and I knew at some point today we would have to go out to do some kind of shopping. everyone wanted something different to eat so I suggested we go out for a breakfast buffet, or WE could go out to pick up the stuff to make it all at home or we could go out for breakfast and make a quick stop for essentials, or we could scrounge for whatever at home but then we still need to go to the store at some point.
he said "hmm" and rolled over to read a book.
I thought maybe he's thinking about it or processing it so I sat there for 1/2hr or so waiting... waiting.. finally I said my blood sugar is dropping, we need to make a decision about our day and what we're doing.
he says "well we could swing a breakfast out if that's what you really want to do" ...well no, I don't want to do it if we aren't in agreement about doing it. so I said screw it and went and got myself a bowl of cereal. and he returned to reading his book. when I finished eating I came back and sat down to wait for him so we could plan our day again.. after 1/2 an hour he looks at me says well aren't you going to go eat before something happens? .....SERIOUSLY??? already done!!! he says oh, and continues reading. I waited another 45 min, and went upstairs to bed to cry for 1/2 an hr.
he eventually comes up and says "I guess those hormones can be pretty hard to deal with" then right away says he probably shouldn't have said that. I looked at him and said "you know, I fight depression every day!"
"are you sure?"
"yah, I know what depression is, and part of the way I fight it is to have a plan everyday, so that I don't feel like the day is a total waste of time" and it helps me regulate how much I'm doing so I don't over do things.
He said "well why haven't you gone out to the shopping?"
me "because I was waiting for you to reciprocate your thoughts and desires for the day so we could come up with a plan!"
Then the kids came in so conversation ended. when they left he said that I could go to the store and pick up what we need and when I get back we(and by we he means I) could make a nice breakfast(it's now lunch time) and then we could all go to the library and he could read books with the kids.
I suggested that we could all go to the store so it would be easier on me,
he said I could take the 5yr old so he could carry the basket.
If I take the kids we take a shopping cart (so they aren't pulling on me or running away or touching, either way it's more difficult, if he came he could take the kids on little missions to get the items we need to save me some of the pain that these outings cause).
Well at least it some kind of a plan.... I went by myself...
got home and I was so exhausted emotionally and from being in pain, that I could barely stay awake. I dozed on and off for an hour or so in the chair with him right there reading his book and ignoring the kids(which is why I don't leave the kids alone with him very often) eventually going back up to bed to rest for 15 min.
I came down and asked him to pick something up for me from the store and he said he would do that if I would make breakfast. I felt like that was such an jerk of a request with the way he had treated me this morning but I had intentions to do it anyways so agreed. by the time he actually left I had breakfast almost completely ready... *sigh*
so because it was so late in the day now the library didn't happen, I have no idea what either of us did for the next couple of hours until it was time to get the kids ready for bed but either way he was back on his computer and we had to call him in for bedtime prayers... like we do every night.
he came downstairs and read a book while I watched a couple of shows and then went back upstairs to his PC. he posted a link on FB earlier about how gaming was going to save the world and how we need to game more.... I now sat and watched this 20min video of pure bull-piss! I was already tired and so I went to bed and cried some more...
He wonders why I'm fighting depression... it's because of him! I internalize the anger that I have for him. I spent the entire day hating myself, hating my life/situation, and then my frustration with him at the end of the day turns to hate which then turns to more depression because it's the only way I can deal with him and not throw him out since he has to be present in order for things to get better...

Oh girl, why on earth did you agree to him going gaming? You are shooting yourself in the foot. Time for gaming is AFTER your UA time is met...not after some blank promise to do it sometime later.

You are blaming him for YOUR actions. Knock it off!

That list of things to do about breakfst was way too long, too many options. In negotiating, I have found it best to state my first choice, an optional second choice I am enthusiastic about, and state openness to any other idea. 2 choices, and an open invitation, and that's it! At the most!

TheQ, I agree with CWMI about agreeing to his gaming. You made a sacrifice which made you all the more resentful when he didn't keep his end of the bargain. Sacrificers keep SCORE and when the score is not even, they become angry and resentful. So please don't agree to things you don't like anymore.

And don't get discouraged that your first foray into negotiations went badly! My own was so bad that my H and I can't show our faces in a certain grocery store again! Just pick it up and try again.

I thought it was only fair to him to give him the chance to set things right with his friends since this has been going on for years. I thought it might ease some of the resentment on his part so we could start fresh this week. kind of like giving him the opportunity to say good bye to a lover?
I wont do that again, that's for sure! he's had his chance.. as for keeping score.. I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing but until we get the handle on spending an adequate amount of time together (and because my baby brain can't retain anything for more than a day or 2) I made a chart so we can keep track of how much time we are spending together so that at the end of the week we can see clearly whether or not there is time/room for friends or other activities. I don't intend to keep it up forever just until we can get a handle on this. maybe I should keep it on the fridge so we can both see it easily, otherwise I was going to keep it beside my chair more for my own reference.

I will keep that in mind for next time, thanks. I would pause after each suggestion to see if it was something he was agreeable to and when there was no response forth coming, I would offer up another idea, wait, no response, and offer another one until something either sticks or I run out of ideas. but I can try it your way next time and see if that works out better....


I can't tell you guy's how much I appreciate your help and insights. It means so much to me... thank you all so very much!

The way to do this is to sit down once weekly and schedule out your UA time. It doesn't happen by accident, but by design. It is too easy to put this off if the time is not scheduled. You write out the date, time, planned activity. It should be away from children and ideally out of the house. But are you able to go out in your condition? Do you have the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love? There is an UA worksheet in there.

No I don't have the book, I do have the The Recreational Enjoyment Inventory from the website here. is that the same thing? or would it be in the love busters book?
I can do small things that don't require much like I can go to the movies or a coffee shop and sit for a couple of hours or long drives, that kind of stuff is about the extent of what I am capable of at the moment. I can do a short walk to our destination but there has to be a place to sit when I get there. I quite often compare myself to a frail granny who can't walk much. I can do about the same kind and amount of stuff, lol

I found the UA worksheet and graph online.. so I copied what I saw and made up my own pages that look the same for the meantime.

I have ordered the books, 5 steps to romantic love, and his needs/her needs for parents.

so as of right now he's not interested so much in the MB stuff, but he did take something to heart though... he said just sitting watching a show is not enjoyable for him but he does enjoy TED (http://www.ted.com/) and then it would be something we could talk about it, with the potential to lead to other conversation/ideas ect.
It's like once he's pushed in the right direction he decides how he wants to do it.
it's something I guess... a place to start, right? baby steps?

That's great you got those books on order. Did your copy of lovebusters come?


IT's still a bit early .. and part of that is probably due to his resentment that he can not do what he wants to do and the other part of that is probably because he hasn't seen whats in it for him yet.


The question you should be asking is Are YOU enthusiastic about his idea? If not .. then your answer should be something like "I am sorry hun, That doesn't appeal to me lets continue to negotiate until we can both really agree on how to spend our time together"


Its going to take some time .. but you will need to show him how the MB program will help make him feel in love with you! Its baby steps sure .. but you have to remember that time in front of the TV or computer is not really UA time .. it can be as long as your interacting during ... but if your ignoring each other, then it doesn't count.

MNG

Edit for spelling and adjusting

There are several presentations from TED which, in my opinion, are quite compatible with MB. Two of my favorites are on vulnerability and the power of being wrong.

not yet

I see it as being up my alley of what I am capable of at the moment. I watch shows because there isn't much else I can do, so if this is the type of show he enjoys and it gets us talking on any level then I think its a step in the right direction. I did suggest a while ago about getting the newspaper and reading it so we could discuss whatever is going on in the world... I don't dislike it, as long as it's not controversial to something I feel passionate about then it really doesn't matter to me what we watch. ...and really if I was capable of doing more than just sitting here, watching a show wouldn't be my first choice of things I would want to do either. I see it as he's making an effort to engage in something I am capable of doing but at the same time trying to find a way so it'd not so dull for him, which I can appreciate.

even if it's not so interactive, is it not one step closer to becoming that way? I mean, how can you be interactive if you can't even stand being in the same room as the other person? when it's just so uncomfortable being alone in each other's presence, could this not be a way to help break the ice for something more meaningful? the show is a way to help us become relaxed with each other and gives us something to talk about afterwards...

I am very open to suggestions! I will suggest those for watching tonight. thank you

Last sunday I found out that the bishop of our church has in fact talked to H one on one and asked him to step up. H's response was that he does all that he can. HA! ya right! he doesn't do half of what he could be doing!

So Friday night confrontation came as I expected it would...
I had a 4pm appointment with a stress coach and I had marked that there was a bridal shower at 7pm
H came home from work looked at the calendar and said ~ so I guess I have to stay home to watch the kids. oh! or my mom could take them over night and we could both go out to our things!
Me ~ well that's one thought but I have a couple of problems with that. #1. if she has the kids then our time out is wasted because we are not together taking advantage of it.
H ~ well we could go out for burgers afterwards...
Me ~ and #2 is that I am not in an enthusiastic agreement about you going out with your friends to game. I gave him last week to set things straight so that was his problem if he didn't do that.
H ~ oh so now you're not going to let me go out with my friends?
Me ~ when we have spent an adequate amount of UA time together then it can be negotiated.
H ~ well, it's not always about gaming.
Me ~ then will you leave your gaming bag at home?
H ~ no! we might decide to game!
Me ~ that's the problem!
he stormed off in a huff to his room and I went to my appointment(after making sure he was ok with me going). when I got home I asked what the plan was and he said he would stay home with the kids.
I suggested that there was another option, if he wanted his mom to take the kids we could both go out together instead.
he said he was too frustrated for that and told me to go to the shower. which I did.

today we had issues from the very beginning of the day, rather than actually dealing with the children he just kept yelling at them. so I figured this was left over from last night. I spent most of the day trying to do a little bit of laundry while he spent the day on his PC.
this was the tip of the iceberg...
I went out to do a little shopping, the more I do the more pain I'm in and the longer it takes me to do it. when I get home he tells me he doesn't understand why I do it all at once instead of breaking it up and doing some on Monday instead. really??? or he could've shown a little consideration and done the shopping for me! do I really have to spell it out for him? why can't he just have the decency to help out? I even told him before I left that if I go out to do this it will do me in for the night... do me in, no kidding! I started having contractions! I can only guess it's from the combination of over doing it and the stress! he will sit there and watch me get up and down a dozen times to deal with various things throughout the day that to me are very obvious, and never do anything to make life more bearable for me. he behaves like he deserves to be catered to when I'm the one in pain! what the heck???

no the books haven't come in yet, but I'm starting to become concerned about the effect of forcing this issue right now

I also just got a key logger I have it on my pc and I will have it on his by monday. I know he's still gaming even though I feel that I have made it clear that I'm not ok with it and that it needs to stop. he did listen to the radio show last week too! I knew this wasn't going to be easy but if it's going to cause me to start having contractions... I just don't know...

BTW, HHH... we did watch the TED about the power of vulnerability. we both found it interesting but couldn't talk about it because there was so much to process. we decided to watch it again tomorrow night.

I'm not an expert at MB, but I wanted to advise you to ask your H to help when you need it. Simply phrase a polite request, "Hey, honey, how would you feel about doing XYZ for me?" Make it very specific and make it a respectful request, not a selfish demand. If he says no, you will have to be courteous. But keep asking.

My H will always help if I ask; he doesn't know I need help unless I ask him. Sometimes, he will ask me if I need help, but by now, he knows he's "off the hook" unless I ask for his assistance. But I have to be very specific.

My daughter used fume about her H not helping after dinner with dishes or the children. I advised her to simply ask him politely, that he doesn't always see it or he figures the work is well in hand. Like my own H, her H is always very willing to help when courteously requested.

I'm sorry I can't answer to the rest of your post. The POJA is a wonderful tool, the foundation of a good marriage, we believe now, but both people have to agree to it. Both people need to learn to understand that it's not about asking permission to do things; it's about creating a partnership/marriage/friendship that will be free of the bad kind of resentment. You and your H will need to come up with some ideas that will take the place of what he used to do and that will make you both happy.

My H is/was also a gamer. He used to buy all kinds of game pieces, hundreds of them over time, and sneak them into the shed so I wouldn't find out how much there was. So now in our "new" marriage, he and I play games together and he enjoys this just as much and sometimes more than gaming with buddies. Over time, I became his favorite RC companion. It took brainstorming and an open mind and some time, but it can be done.

I always figured that if I say what needs to be done and express the effect it will have on me it gives him the opportunity to step up... but he never does
later that night I asked him what he wanted to about a bday present for his dad. he grumbled that I was supposed to do that while I was out. I said yes, but I came home said I am not capable of walking anymore and was done for the night. thus shifting responsibility for getting it done to him. I gave him an option and asked for other ideas and then he left for the store. he came back with a pop for himself. I asked him what we were going to do then, because I thought he was going out to get something for his dad. he says I don't know that was your job. so I offered 2 options the 2nd idea goes against our belief system, he chose the 2nd.

I changed the way I said things because he used to complain about me nagging him whenever I asked him for anything. so I figured the way around that was not to directly ask but make it known what was needed and wait for him to step up... I can go back to asking though, I don't think I ever did it disrespectfully, I always say please and thank you...

well last night we had a very long talk I asked him how he would like me to approach him when something needs to be done so that he doesn't feel like I'm nagging him. he said he would be ok if I went back to asking him directly.

we talked a lot about the MB concepts (without actually calling it MB), we talked a lot about his resentment and how much he feels he's been asked to sacrifice, he's really bitter about the friend thing, and doesn't know what to tell them. I told him that if they are true friends then he should be able to tell them that he's taking a break for a bit and will see them again when he gets his marriage back on track. Being true friends they should understand that, and knowing them myself I don't see that should be an issue, but that they will wish him the best and leave things open for him to contact them when he's ready to.

he said that he feels like he is constantly sacrificing and doesn't feel like his opinion matters because I do whatever I want to do regardless of what he says. but when I actually got him to talk about examples or specifics so that I could understand his point of view it came down to he didn't want to upset me so he just let it go. I told him that by doing that the problem isn't resolved though, and that I end up feeling like all the decisions are left up to me because there is no/very little input and makes me feel like a single parent. it made me think of the giver/taker article but I couldn't remember it exactly at 1am to explain it properly. I think I will have to review it and review the steps to negotiation. he said he doesn't know what to do with our UA time, so we talked about figuring out each others EN and using that time to meet them. we talked about his mom a little bit but he thinks he doesn't see the manipulation and stuff because he grew up with it and just became accustomed to it. I suggested that if it was a problem hearing about it from me (like if I just put him on the defensive about it) then he could talk to his uncle (who actually took me aside over the summer to see if I was aware of the way she treats the kids when I'm not around. nothing his uncle said came as any kind of surprise to me because I had already seen the same things and drawn the same conclusions).

I don't know for sure but I think he's coming around to it ...as long as I don't actually call it MB.

I made notes from the transcript;


http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2523084&page=1

wow! thank you... that's an awesome thread! that will definitely give us some meat to chew on for a bit. thank you

so to update...
so I thought things were starting to get better between us. His mom took the kids over night last friday so we could work on us and building UA time. we managed to get in 13 hrs last week YAY! as opposed to 8hrs the week before and even less the week before that.

I got the books, love busters, his needs her needs for parents, and the 5 steps to romantic love workbook. do I wait to read them until he's on board with reading them together? which is what I really want! or do I just read them by myself? I've already read most of the stuff on the site here by myself, is this just going to be me trying to fix things by myself again?

I put a keylogger on all our pc's, and today I finally got around to looking at the screen shots... he's been into porn... transgender porn.. what the heck??? Now I need to go find and read those articles about porn. I haven't finished sorting through and cataloging the findings but I feel like the more about him I get to know, the more I feel like I die little inside...

how can we have a relationship if I can't even trust him to be honest with me. I am feeling like he tells me what he thinks I want to hear, to pacify me, so he can do what he wants to do.

Every week I find out there's one more complication with the pregnancy and I have to reduce the stress in order keep things going smooth. I'm becoming increasingly concerned about carrying to term. Do I really need this stress right now? I know Dr. Harley said it would be better for him to suffer through resentment and to address this stuff now to make the forgiveness process easier... but at what cost? I feel so hurt and betrayed right now...