Question: do ENS change over time? For example, we have no SF now, so she says SF is high need?

But family committment is being met alot by me the last few months, so this is lower on te list (#5), but was always her biggest complaint before.

I think I need to start mind-stopping and to stop analyzing things so much or something. I just sat on an intercontinental flight and thought about this crap for 6 hours out of 10 hours, with only movies being a workable distraction, and all of these doubts and negative thoughts hit me in waves again and again. I am my worst enemy.

Since we have began calls with Steve, my WW has accepted the idea theoretically that being in love with the father of her biological children (me!) is the ideal situation for her greatest happiness.

She has fully completed and discussed with me the EN and LB questionnaires for 5 hours all together last week, she remembers the weekly calls each week and even reminds me of them w/o prompting, and finally has stated that she thinks this stuff works twice (!), but does still not think or is unsure it will work for US (twice)!!!

She eveb said yesterday that regardless, these calls have really gotten each of us to treat the other one so much better. Frankly, my approach has not changed ONE BIT!! But she has become alot nicer the last 2 weeks on most days, and her bad days and verbal attacks are now growing much more infrequent. She even apologized yesterday after one AO that she was over-reacting and she then fully calmed down. It was AMAZING and UNSEEN in our entire relationship for her to be so self-aware in the middle of an AO. This has to be from the LB questionnaire talk and her own after-talk thinking.

AAAgghhh!!!

I need some patience and humility. There are so many people on these boards that are in worst places than me. I still have my WW and kids all in one place living with me, we have a month-long family vacation planned for Christmas/New Years where we will be staying in one room all together for 4 weeks and I have enourmous opps for LB deposits, and we have Steve personally helpign guide us in these early steps.

But I cannot escape these thoughts that I still am losing everything and am not doing enough!

I guess I need some encouragement or something...

Hang in there. There is progress. She doesn't see it as her making it, but that's what it is. You can do this.

You said it yourself Blawkhawk, she has changed in the last 2 weeks, she is making changes for herself and the way she interacts with you......I think you have a lot to look to as a positive, just keep doing what you are doing.....little by little she will fall in love with you all over again.
It does take a lot of patience I remember how I always just wanted to fix things today with one conversation and why didn't he just get it........we just want our lives back and to be in love and to have a happy family......
She could be gone if she really wanted to, she has hope or she would be........
Let Steve help you, learn to meet each other's needs, use your words and show her every day, you are there for her, that you are committed........
While your away, leave her emails, texts.........ask her if she is alright and that you worry about her when you aren't there, that you are looking forward to the family holiday, use certain things she will like to do during that time.....get her thining of the happy times that will happen for your family......tell her how you have noticed how she is changing and that you appreciate it...........
one day at a time, little by little........you have a lot of hope, the holidays is a great time to connect........
don't worry so much, enjoy the time you do have with her ...........

Thanks Celtic Voyager for the encouragement. I know you are right.

jessi,

You are of course right. I just sometimes get down about this and start to second guess things. I was more detached when this thing started and did not even think about the future. Now I do see some progress, and start to worry about the future. I need to detach more and avoid expectation.

Today we have had 3 seperate Skype chats about this and that, she will send me stuff like a store address to visit, or she will have our DD call me, then I write some banal stuff back, and we babble for a bit about nothing. We are now saying bye to each other when we sign off. I forget already how bad it was last time I traveled. She was begging for me to let her go, etc. Hard to believe that was only about 6 weeks ago!

A game of inches indeed...

I got back from my trip last night. WW was affectionate and hugged me (unusual). She also thanked me with a kiss on the neck for a gift I got her (first kiss in 4 months!).

This morning she hugged me again, full hug. Then she later did this again and we stood there for about 30 seconds in a full hug, she then initiated SF.

It then all fell apart when we went to the bedroom. Took off clothes, lay there, then she suddenly jumps up, starts to cry, says "I thought I could do this but I can't." I ask her to just lay together and talk. She refuses and leaves the room.

Thast was this morning. Now we are just going about our day. She is very friendly. We continue to have lots of incidetal touching, etc.

What the he** happened???!!!

She just apologized for this morning. Said she was sorry, she has things she has to work through.

I suggested talking with Steve about it during our next call. She did not like me suggesting this. She said she would appreciate it if I do not try to guide her, this should be her idea, not mine. I agreed and asked her to always tell me if she thinks I am over stepping and "guiding" her. She said: "I just did."

Then we talked about some clothes I bought and I tried them on for her. She remains nice and friendly to me.

Blackhawk, keep on loving and waiting. She's still there and you still have hope. I don't have any advice--just wanted to encourage you.

Thanks PleaseSetMeFree, I appreciate your encouragement. I do my best to take one day at a time.

Trying to have SF with me is what through me for a loop. I was on a trip last week, and we kept up good conversations daily. Now I get back and she wants to be affectionate to me for the first time since August. I just wasn't expecting it I guess. It is like some switch flipped in her head while I was gone and she today was really nice to me, ironing my shirts, buying what I like to eat. I am just surprise is all. She has not done thinsg like this since this all started.

I have not posted in a while, so I guess an update is in order! We spent a month together with the kids on vacation through the holidays, lots of great memories and times together, and in fact I think one of the best vacations of my life and our marriage. SF started again during the end of the trip and now has become daily the last 8 days since we got back.

Also, once we returned home she sat down and told me she has decided to stay in our marriage (yeah!!!) and that "you win". I told her it is not about me or her winning as we can together make our marriage something we both enjoy and cherish. She cried and then she said I don't love her, but I said strongly I do, then she asked to have SF (that was about a week ago and has been daily since then).

On the downside, we have so much left to work on. We were doing weekly calls with Steve but she does not want to continue that right now (I think she feels manipulated), although I am w/o DJs trying to get her to change her mind. Two things bother me most at this juncture: we have SF every morning but we still sleep in seperate beds during the evening (DD sleeps with her). Steve game me an approach to use on this and I am working on it.

The other thing, she is not wearing her ring yet (she has not worn it in 6 months). Thoughts on how to bring this up? Is this common?

One day at a time...

By the way, Steve says the call refusal is a defense mechanism on her part.

Also, is it safe to say we are spending time in the stage of intimacy often now? Our conflicts still occur but irregularly.

Just keep going with Plan Aing her and building a great relationship, it is going to take some extra time with your situation.....because the OM died, she only sees a good man she never got to a place where she saw anything defects, we all have them.....a fantasy image is harder to deal with......
But as time passes she will move on just like any loss.........real life will be more important than the fantasy life......
I say you are making great headway, I would slowly try to change the sleeping arrangements if you can, maybe after your daughter falls asleep put her back in her bed and you crawl in with her......try to make that more regular than not sleeping in the same bed.......she will need it after a while......
Make her feel as safe as you can and be as thoughtful to her needs as you can be, that is important to her right now, knowing someone is there for her.....you feel alone after a loss........
Start planning the next get away, or the next day out together, anything that includes conversation and laughing, car ride in the countryside, lunch at a little hidden place.......
she probably does feel a loss of control, she had a life in her mind and that fantasy is gone, she is having a hard time with what her own reality is because of her choices......she will figure it out.........just make her world safe and loving......
I think you are doing great, keep talking to Steve even if she isn't up to it right now.......but encourage her........
keep us posted

Thanks Jessi for the insights. Steve said the greatest danger right now is complacency (from both of us) so I am staying focused and will keep plan A'ing. I'll schedule a call with Steve soon too. The bed thing is something I'll keep working on with her.

Time for another update. I am really down today. We have been having SF regularly, enjoyable for both of us, and spending 1-2 afternoons together alone each week. Kids are happy, we are not fighting and few LBs from both sides.

Then the day before Valentine's day she started to withdraw I perceived. On Valentine's Day, I took a chance and decided to experiment. I gave her a hand written note, very sweet and complimenting her phsyically and saying how much I cherish her, appreciate her and thanked her for being her. She seemed unhappy to receive it. We had SF the next day. Then she started saying she did not want to have SF (it was 4-5 times per week for the last month), although we still watched movies together and had pleasant interactions all week, just the SF disappeared. I kept suggesting nicely, she kept shooting me down.

The next day she said (not verbatim): "We can't have love again, but I guess I will keep living with you until the kids reach 18 (that is 12-15 years from now) for the kids. You control/make the money so I have no choice." I countered with "let's make our marriage something we both enjoy, etc."

Over the weekend, we had a moment when I called her "wife." She reacted horribly and said "only on paper, you say you love me, if so don't say this and hurt me." I respectfully disagreed and said we are married, not just on paper. She said, "stop, or i'll leave." I said I am happy we are here together and changed the subject, I could not think of what else to do at the time. Later she tried to argue with me about something inconsequential, saying "stop arguing for once and be a man, can oyu for once act like a man?" I let it pass over me and changed the subject.

I have kept suggesting SF each day and she has kept shooting me down this week. Last night we had both drank some wine and had a small fight. Then I saw her on FB talking about a computer repair issue with her friend's husband. I asked her why had she friended him and she said it was innocent (she did not try to hide the exchange) and asked "can I not have male friends now?" She became very pissed. I know this is a danger zone but did not know how to say so without educating her.

The week w/o SF, together with the wine and then me saying a friend's husband talking with her on FB just set me off inside. I became so upset that later I went to the bed where she is sleeping with our daughter and tried to talk with her about continuning with Steve, progress was being made, etc. (Steve has asked me to continue to try to chip away at her resistance and remind her). She told me to go away but I kept trying to respectfully without LBs discuss it. She said that "there was no progress, it was all fake, I do not want to be with you, i do not want to have SF with you, you think I was doing that to meet your ENs but I was only enjoying myself and now I do not want to have SF with you, you promised we would work on this through the end of the year if I agreed to work with Steve and you lied so I am stuck here with you" (her wrong assumption is I would then agree to D or supporting her financially in seperation, I never said that). I said we started with Steve, progress was being made, let's keep trying, etc. I told her good night after that and frankly with the wine and I guess my expectations after so much progress, I had a sort of breakdown (by myself, don't worry, I know better than to let her see this).

It is my perception that everything began to go south around V-Day. I wonder if this was a trigger for her? I see on one of her websites that she was listening to alot of moody music on the 13th. Can WWs trigger around anniversarys or important days?

Is this kind of setback to be expected?

another comment made by WW: "I don't want to work with Steve, I do not love you, i do not respect you, I odn't want to live wiht you but to avoid fighting over all of these issues with you in D, i will livewith you until the kids turn 18." "Stop trying to control me, I don't believe in it (MB, Steve), it does not work." "Our marriage was a mistake and sorry I pressured oyu into it."

I realize alot of this is classic WW fog-babble. But man it hurt at the time.

i also saw saw her speaking with a girlfriend I don't know around the 14th, and my intuition is she is somehow connected to all of this whole thing. Early days through x-mas, this person and her kids were on my WWs sreensaver, together with pics of her college friends from 20 years ago. now our family pics are back. before that, had never seen her before. maybe she is an enabler or sonehow connecetd to the dead OM.

I think last night she saw me as needy with the pushing to talk about working on the M. I have not shown neediness in a long time, but the frequent SF, now being with-held, is really depressing me and I feel like we have relapsed. We have an all day hike planned for Friday so I hope this helps. I think a lack of UAT last week and then the v-day holiday have gutted us. Our situation is so fragile. Gotta keep plan A'ing...

The gut is always right.

OM was an XBF from years ago and this friend is most likely part of that past social group.

This "friend" could of even helped WW and OM to re connect after all these years. Yes your WW needs to go NC with this group of people and get rid of FB as well to ensure NC and prevent triggering.