I want to thank everyone that responded to what at least to me was at that time bizzaro world with the OM death and all. It is barely 6 weeks ago and it all seems like a horrible dream.
Update:
We are still living at home all together, at least in her words "through the end of the year while I see if I can develop feelings for you which I cannot even though I am trying." Some days I feel progress, some days we go backwards. I have been plan A'ing my butt off and have seen some impact:
1. Working out each day for 2 months, progress visible She has noticed a number of times; 2. Super-dad with kid time, reading, teaching, etc. (one of her big complaints before). She has commented on this alot, but still does her best to find fault but it is hard for her . 3. No arguing except for a BIG backslide last night (see below, this was my impetus to write today). 4. Agreeing with her and disagreeing without diasgreeing(Mr.Wondering's plan A-B guide has been my mantra, also just finished a long post from TMTS in 2008 that gave me loads of wisdom). 5. Spending all of my free time around the house with family, no business trips unless no way out (another big complaint earlier, married to my job and not her). In fact she said yesterday before the blow-out that "it is ironic that you spend all this time at home and with family when I do not want it but did not do it when I did." 6. Ironing like a mad man (I could not iron a hand towel 2 months ago but now I put the laundry to shame).
We had our first "date" day last week from 10-5 when I took a couple of days off work, spent all day together doing errands, shopping, lunch, it was her idea, she said "I like when we are friends like this." We then had b-day parties for our daughter over the week-end, spent time with friends, decent interaction together with kids and all was more or less as good as could be expected until last night.
We got home after the b-day party at a local restaurant and she attacked me for "not being man enough to discipline our daughter" after a pretty bad marker-couch incident I missed because I was doing dishes; in the past few weeks when we have had progress I have backed away and she has calmed down but this time I couldn't stand it and wanted to set a boundry and told her not to criticize me in front of the kids. I thought it was a mistake, but i lost it a bit. This got her going and although I never lost my temper, she threatened to leave for her mom's, said how she has wanted to leave for years, she hates me, I disgust her, make her a witch, make her yell in front of kids, at kids, etc. I said she is still my wife (mistake to say!), she said only on paper, we have not been married for 6 years (since birth of first kid). I probably should have then backed away but I did not. Instead I tried to educate her I guess and said this all started 6 months ago in April when the EA started, she says she had no affair!! (if you know the last thread, this is utter BS, but I guess in her mind the EA part does not count, or her soulmate is her true husband, or who knows what she is thinking since it is impossible to read this WWs mind!!). She sleeps in our marital bed with our 3 year old since she kicked me out when she announced the intention to divorce Sept 5, and I will often lay down with our daughter to help her fall asleep and then go upstairs and sleep on the couch, but last night I refused to leave, said there was room for all of is, and she refused to come to bed and worked all night. That was probably too much from my side to push like that and i feel like I over stepped one of her boundries or something by kicking her out of her bed.
This AM I said I wanted to talk, she ignored me 100%, and laid down and I sat on the bed apologized for fighting in front of kids, and told her my intention is to be the best father and husband I can be, I have made mistakes, let's not fight in front of kids again. She would not open her eyes and pretended to sleep. I said thanks for listening and went to work.
Frankly, is this going to be the rest of our life? I feel like we had such PROGRESS last week, but then it was all shot to smithereens by last night's debacle. I feel like I am back in square 1 again and she is threatening to leave with the kids to her mom's again (I guess this is progress as although she works, she does not have enough income for an apartment unless I agree to support her which there is no way I will).
The OM is gone, we are all at home still, but she still seems he11 bent on leaving after the new year, especially after last night. When she brings up leaving I change the subject but I am afraid I just killed any hope with our fight and it validating she wants out of our marriage.
I mean, is this to be expected? I guess I was hoping, or that bad word "expecting", that with the OM death, she would go through WD and have a slow awakening. The WD was bad the first 3 weeks, and has slowly lessened, sometimes even with her normal self poking through now again (at least until last night), especially last week. But now it seems in her eyes our marriage was horrible and she wants out anyway to be free, she hates me. She told me yesterday her best friend has been seeing the same psychotherapist she saw and has now kicked out her husband as well! I laughed and said, what is this therapist also divorced, and she did not like that and attacked instead my parent's marriage and how staying together for the kids without love is wrong, etc.
One more thing last night, she said "I hate you, and be honest I also know you hate me! Admit it! You think I had an affair!" I said: "No, I love you still." "Mosr men would have left, but I am still here, I am waiting for you, but I will nton be able to wait forever."
I'm wondering if perhaps there is another OM. If the OM had not died, I would be saying her sudden behavior of being mean towards you would mean a renewal of contact...
It sounds like you're doing great. Plan A is not Plan doormat, and most waywards hate Plan A like poison. Thats why they poke and provoke you, they prefer you as the bad guy.
Dont allow any AOs though - if you feel you are reaching the end of your tether its time for Plan B. Your Plan A sounds stellar and the contrast to not having you around in Plan B sounds like you will have done all you could. Dr H says Plan A alone is not usually enough.
The death of OM wouldnt necesarily cause withdrawal. In fact it may have complicated the situation as no one chose to end the relationship. She can keep it alive in her mind. Does she have any gifts, mementos, triggers? I would say she does. These will keep the fantasy alive.
Thanks for your post. I have no evidence of a new OM, but of course anything is possible. I have done some snooping as best I could the last few days and found nothing. Again though, anything is possible is one thing I have learned, but I am doubtful at this point.
The fact that OM died doesn't make her less wayward, Hawk. That's the problem. She has fallen out of love with you and still has a wayward mindset.
I think you're doing well, for the most part. Actually, you might be doing a little too much. You don't want to be a doormat. If you tell me you're ironing the bed sheets and socks I'm going to fall over.
That business of sleeping on the couch? Stop it. Why aren't you sleeping in your own bed? If she doesn't like it, she can work all night. But do not allow her to dismiss you from your own bed!
Remind me, please: what is the moving out plan? Why is she staying til the beginning of next year?
Thanks for your post. I have snooped and found nothing physical to give atrigger and anyway do not think there would be much since this A was mostly electronic. I know she keeps messages on her phone from the OM and on her Skype history and she his pictures from a picnic they attended last spring when this started and from previously (him and his wife were old friends of my wife). I have come in quietly and seen her staring at them and she has quickly changed the screen quickly but not the last week. I can only assume though that of course she still does this sometimes.
I am not ready for plan B as long as she stays and there is no other OM. I want to plan A as long as I can. We have a x-mas trip planned for 3 weeks to the US and want to keep going at least through that if not longer. Or do you think I should plan B regardless? To me it is still early days and I am ok most of the time, although it does get to me sometimes late at night, but I never let her see this, not once since the first couple of days she dropped the news. Last week gave me alot of hope, which is why this setback is hurting so much. I let my expectation get ahead of me.
You are so right with her wanting me to be the bad guy. Her friends were all over complaining about their husbands - no kid time, no housework, never do anything without direction - and I was busy setting up a cheese plate for them, making coffee, and then started ironing. It was priceless, they were like "wow", but then my wife tried to criticize that I had left them earlier that day at the theatre, but they defended me and said it was not my fault. She tried to do this 3 times before she gave up! I enjoyed it actually, a guilty pleasure I guess
Thanks ManInMotion for the post. The bed thing is an issue I struggle to deal with becausce of course I don't want to be upstairs while she is downstairs with our daughter and then our son also is in the room downstairs. When she first dropped the bomb she took over the main bedroom and this is now "her' room although I sleep in there with our daughter if she is not asleep and am in there alot anyway with kids, my suits are there, etc. I worry that maybe this is not yet a battle to fight. Or should I now just push it? I have been taking more of a "one small pebble at a time" approach from an old Mark's Musings thread and when I push her hard she really loses it (e.g. you are still my wife comment, sleeping in bed). I mean, does this really help me improve the R, or does it just create LBs at this point? I haven't a clue. This is what happened last night, I pushed back and got close to losing control when my previous approach was to back off and let her calm down. That seeme to be working better. She can be a drama quen, my wife.
Thanks for posting as usual! Your wisdom helped alot last month and helped me grow a pair at a n opportune time. And yes, I see your point with the continuance of the wayward mindeset. It is frustrating to say the least, although I have seen my old wife come out the last week when we spent alot of time together (i.e. "date" day and the 2 days afterwards). But like I posted to ManInMotion, it is hard for me to understand the boundry between 'doormat-ism" and filling her LB. For example, with the ironing I was doing the kids clothes, my clothes and hers. She asked me NOT to do hers, but then I do them anyway and she does not say anything, but seems to like it. It seems a fine line. Btw, i am ironing the sheets but it is a slapdish job on those I draw the line at socks though
And also like I wrote to ManInMotion, the bed thing is an issue. I am afraid this will just cause conflict and piss her off so have given her space, wanting to let it happen at the right moment. Twice my daughter and son have fallen asleep with me in the main bed and she has slept in my son's room. She seemed touched by it. I think after our fight that last night she saw it more as disrepect and pressure and it could have been a LB. Perhaps better to wait a couple of days and then push this again?
On moving out, I laid it out what I want, she just never agreed to not move out at the end of the year if her love had not returned! She says she is staying because she has no choice since I won't pay support. I have been vague when pressed, she says I will not compromise, I change the subject. I am ignoring the end of year date. She says I can't keep her against her will, I agree, she wants me to rent two apartments, I laugh and said why would I do that when me and my kids have this nice big two floor place to call home? I have just tried to duck and weave when she brings this up.
Her big thing now is buying acar for herself. i tis funny. She can't even drive, bless her heart, but she wants a car??!!! About 2 weeks ago she asked me to buy her a car and I said I will once we reconcile and she says "See, that was a test, and you failed!" I thought to myself. "yeah, a test to see if I have lost IQ points recently..."
You know, one question I have it what to do/expect next? if plan B is usually required anyway, 6 months of plan A will be April. Man, she has to break before that, or is that wishful thinking? Should I talk to the Harleys?
A few thoughts on the bed issue: Staying in your bed and your room is not an LB. SHE is the one that wants out. If she wants to sleep elsewhere, then she needs to leave the bedroom. You are staying in your bed. That�s not a love buster. It is a boundary of self respect. SHE wants out, not you. There�s no reason for her to push you around on this.
The OM may be dead, but she�s still very much wayward. I wouldn�t be surprised at all if she was fishing for a new OM.
There�s a difference between being a doormat and with drawing boundaries. One of those gets you respect. The other doesn�t.
There�s no need to fight or argue about some things. She�s going to get horribly mad when you draw your boundaries, but that�s fine. She�ll respect you versus you laying down and rolling over.
Have you made the divorce picture clear for her? You need to do so if you haven�t. Make it clear that if you do divorce there will be no friendship between you if you split. Trust me when I tell you, there really won�t be any. You might try to convince yourself as well that there can be such a thing, but there really isn�t.
Let her know that if she decides to divorce or leave that you will file for abandonment and request the kids, the house, alimony and child support from her.
Tell her that path is an ugly one and you won�t make it easy. Make the alternative much better. Let her know that while divorce might be ugly, fixing your marriage is not.
Also, don�t walk on egg shells about her affair. An emotional affair is an affair, whether she wishes to admit it or not. So when she says she didn�t have an affair, you simply say that it was. Calling it otherwise doesn�t make it less so. Don�t be afraid to hold your ground. Pining over another married man is an affair, especially if there were exchanges of emails and conversations IS an affair.
Here�s the litmus test to challenge her with: Would OMW be ok with the exchanges she was having with OM? Would OM be able to share the email exchanges or phone conversations with the OM not getting upset?
You could use yourself, but it�s too easy for her to say, �You�re unreasonable and jealous.�
So use OMW. If OMW would be uncomfortable with their exchanges, then it is an affair and inappropriate!
Why can�t she drive? I think this was an opportunity for you to make a deposit.
Thanks ManInMotion for the post. The bed thing is an issue I struggle to deal with
Plan A is not Plan Doormat. If you let your W(?)W walk all over you in your own home, she's going to lose even more respect for you, and you will endanger your M even more.
Time for you to establish your personal boundaries. Getting kicked out of your own bed is definitely something that should NOT be acceptable.
From what I've read so far, it sounds to me like you've got a "walkaway wife" with no place for her to walk away to. She will make your life miserable if you give her the opportunity to do so. I say Plan A, but set a definite time limit on how long you do so. And start protecting your finances, if you haven't done so already.
On the bed issue, this seems to be the general agreement. i spoke with my marriage counselor last night and she said the same thing, just start sleeping there. She will either sleep there too or sleep elsewhere in the house.
On the boundries, my wife has anger issues and will respond in stressful situations with kids, me, in public with AOs when she become anxious or impatient. This has become worse as our second child hit 2 years, and was over the top during the first couple of weeksof WD last month. I am working hard on setting boundries in a calm consistent way and with my own self-control. I realize she does not like herself when she has these AOs, and of course blames me for them, that I "make her a witch." She does not like it when I set boundries of course, but i will continue especially with her being critical of me or yelling at me in front of the kids. It is hard and something I am focused on now.
Something I have done in the past when she has these AOs, is to withdraw. I would go upstairs, which is where I am (was!) sleeping, it became my "man-cave" I guess. I don't stay up there anymore and am always downstairs with the kids, cooking, reading, etc. That obviously has not worked! I will instead engage directly, set boundries and help her behave better.
On divorce, this has been said. On the firendship thing, I do want to work this in, and will look for an opportunity next time it comes up. I have also come to the conclusion I do not want friendship with her without R, it would be too painful, and anyway I agree it is unrealistic.
About the affair, thanks for this advice. It makes sense. I believe in her mind she has decided it was not an affair since the PA was really short (once, maybe twice AFAIK), and she is telling herself the EA was just that and since she decided in her wayward mind in August we were done, the PA was then allowable. I can't see how she could say there was no affair without these rationalizations. the way she collapsed and camme to me for support when he died and when she admitted everything said it all. I wonder if she is now trying to disbelieve there was an affair in case I go to court. or maybe she really believes this. Who knows what is going on in her mind, I sure don't. I like what you suggest about the OMW. I will use that next time she takes this path in a convo.
On the car, we have lived outside the US for the last 10 years for my work. We live in a country where there is good public transport and most people do not drive. I have a car for work which I use but we have never bought one for her since she has never learned to drive. Even when we lived in the US, we lived in cities like NY or DC where a car is somewhat optional. She really wants to learn to drive, i offered to pay, and anyway she has a job amd can pay herself. She just does not have the car and has no savings. I have always controled the cash, etc. and took it all away once this started after getting advice on here. So, I told her I would be her a car once we R and she agrees to work on the marriage. She then said that was a test and I don't love her or I would buy her a car. Frankly, I can see her learning to drive, and then loading up the car with stuff and kids and driving to her mom's 8 hours away. Do you think I shiuld buy her the car anyway?
I just wrote alot to helpthelostdads on boundries, and this is something I am determined to work on. Previously I would withdraw when she would have her AOs, but that strategy has failed in the longrun obviously, she has loat respect for me from her, does not like herself when she has AOs, and blames me for them since she calms down when I withdraw! Totally counter productive, you are right.
Yes, she is a WAW but without the finances to get her own place. Even if we D or seperate, due to some technicalities about my work and where we live she cannot force me to support her. If we D in the US, I will destroy her because of the A and my warchest. On PLan A, i realize 6 months is normal with an ongoing A, but what about in a situation like this? No A, two steps forward, one step back. We had our first "date" day last week and spent all day together doing fun things and she told me she liked it when we were friends like that (I think this allowed her to save face). There was even some good sexual tension. But then the rollercoaster goes back down and there is a blowup after she has an AO and she spews filth, how she hates me, etc. The verbal assaults have become less than they were a couple of months ago before the OM died and during the first couple of weeks of WD. I think last week was really a breakhtrough becaus eof the date day and a couple of other days when we spent alot of time together, but then Sunday night exploded after her AO. now she is giving me the cold shoulder again big time. She is being short, sort of rude, but not in an angry way. I respond even nicer to her when she does this, and she hates it I know.
On the eggshells thing, it is hard. I do not do this all the time, but when she is in a bad mood I do. i will have to work on that.
Wow, I never realized the seperate beds thing is feeding this wayward fantasy. And she won't allow to to tuck her in or touch her (positive thinking: yet!). Like I wrote earlier today, everyone is telling me just go sleep in our bed, so why not? I'll try it and let you know what happens
She has touched me a few times the last week for the first time since early August: rubbed her hand up and down my back during a party, rubbed my shoulder during a kid function at school when we were sitting close together, on the date day we went to a store to clothes shop and were in the dressing room together trying on clothes and checking to see what fits in our underwear, laughing, etc. (so lots of good sexual tension that day!). I go out of my way to get "casual' touching and am a predator about it (it is one of my love languages) without her realizing it, but she seems receptive until a new shutdown and AO happens and I am the hated ruiner of her life again. Now she wants nothing to do with me after sunday night's tiff. But last night was really calm, she just gave me the cold shoulder all night.
During Sunday nights debacle, this exchange sort of had me reeling:
WW: I hate you! You disgust me! I will never love you again! Admit it, you hate me too! All of your changes are phnoy!
Me: No, WW, I still love you. My intentions are to be the best father and husband I can be.
Why doe she think I hate her? Is she TRYINGto get me to hate her with all of this crap she throws at me? Its not working. maybe she is slowly tiring since the crap is coming less often?
On the eggshells thing, it is hard. I do not do this all the time, but when she is in a bad mood I do. i will have to work on that.
Wow, I never realized the seperate beds thing is feeding this wayward fantasy. And she won't allow to to tuck her in or touch her (positive thinking: yet!). Like I wrote earlier today, everyone is telling me just go sleep in our bed, so why not? I'll try it and let you know what happens
She has touched me a few times the last week for the first time since early August: rubbed her hand up and down my back during a party, rubbed my shoulder during a kid function at school when we were sitting close together, on the date day we went to a store to clothes shop and were in the dressing room together trying on clothes and checking to see what fits in our underwear, laughing, etc. (so lots of good sexual tension that day!). I go out of my way to get "casual' touching and am a predator about it (it is one of my love languages) without her realizing it, but she seems receptive until a new shutdown and AO happens and I am the hated ruiner of her life again. Now she wants nothing to do with me after sunday night's tiff. But last night was really calm, she just gave me the cold shoulder all night.
It is really hard. I walked over the shells without leaving a trace before everyone on here made me get tougher.
You need to show extreme confidence. Dont chuckle at her anger but let it wash over you Like you have such faith in her love that you arent fooled by it.
It does tend to make them even angrier and they storm off. Then you cn chuckle.
Thanks indiegirl for the advice. I guess the US posters are all asleep! I have chuckled a couple of times when she has criticized me with an AO because it was so transparent. I will have to avoid that, it has to be a LB I guess and disrepctful.
I just listened to some radio clips where the Harley's advise a guy to do plan A for up to 2 years, as his wife is still in fog land. That is scary to me that it could take this long. My marriage counselor thinks she is not going anywhere, and wants ME to make the decision to leave, but that my plan A is slowly working and she is slowly tiring. I don't know, maybe so, I am probably too close to see things clearly. I guess a month ago we never would have spent the day together, but we did do that last week.
During Sunday nights debacle, this exchange sort of had me reeling:
WW: I hate you! You disgust me! I will never love you again! Admit it, you hate me too! All of your changes are phnoy!
Me: No, WW, I still love you. My intentions are to be the best father and husband I can be.
Why doe she think I hate her? Is she TRYINGto get me to hate her with all of this crap she throws at me? Its not working. maybe she is slowly tiring since the crap is coming less often?
WWs are fun...
WW is still living in the land of denial. Still justifying her affair. Still believing things would be different only if the OM did not die.
WW is keeping her mind closed to your changes to maintain her fantasy world. Longer plan A the better the odds are that you will get through to WW.
Though some WW's are of the WAW type and she will never come back. Maybe being from two very different cultures is something she ignored but haunts her now.
Thanks TheRoad for your post. The two cultures thing was never a devisive issue earlier in our marriage and even one of the things we always liked and that she appreciated, but you are right, not now. She criticizes it. I speak her native language well, but not like a native and never at home, so she complains about this now too and that it makes it hard for us to communicate (her English is almost native). The EA was done almost all by e-mail/messaging and the OM was an old college friend so from her culture, friend group, etc. It was a factor I guess she used to justify the A.
About denial, she did tell me a couple of weeks ago about the affair that alot of it was in her mind, and in her imagination. I think she is in love with being "in love", and felt this flash of being in love with the OM and does not think it can be rekindled between us. She still claims it is not about the A, but me/us not being meant for each other.
I just overheard a call to a friend of ours in the US who I have not spoken to in years. She told her she wants a divorce. This person asked why? He's going out on you or something? She said no, he has actually really changed, stays home, into kids, etc. Then this person asked why? WW says she just does. The friend then asked, do you have a lover? She said no, but she wants one, but is not willing to do that living with me (I night have misheard the last part but I think that is what was said).
Ouch, that kills me. How do I take this? Should I contact this friend and try to solicit support? I am not sure if this person will support and anyway, it may give away that I was eavesdropping.
I speak her native language well, but not like a native and never at home, so she complains about this now too and that it makes it hard for us to communicate (her English is almost native).
I think if my wife spoke another language natively, I would try to immerse myself in it and speak it almost all the time in order to reach her emotionally. That has to be a deep need. I want want to strive for 100% bilingualism in our family.
Our kids speak both and she/we has been very stict with me speaking only English and her the native language in the home so the kids are fully ni-lingual. We have lived in a number of countries including the US, and English has just become the normal language we communicate in. I could go full tilt in her native language, but she gets mad because of the kid thing.
I'm really confused. She doesn't want you to speak her native language to her? She's complaining about you not speaking the native language at home, but she doesn't want you to speak it at home?
Anyway, regardless of my confusion, my point is that I think this is a complaint you can and should address.
And I agree. I think this guy was able to meet her needs through language and I am not able to do that as well. Her English is native level too though, but I get your point all too well having read poetry and literature in her native language and not getting it as well as she does.
She wants me to speak only English at home for the kids. But to her she is ok if I speak her native language if kids not around. But her English is much better than my command of her native language although I have general fluency (I work fully in this language).
I went ahead and scheduled a session with Steve tomorrow to get help on the plan.
Good job!
BEFORE your session with Steve, email him a brief summary of your situation with a timeline so you don't have to waste precious (expensive) phone time. That way he already has an idea about what you need to hear and what plan will work.
I just overheard a call to a friend of ours in the US who I have not spoken to in years. She told her she wants a divorce. This person asked why? He's going out on you or something? She said no, he has actually really changed, stays home, into kids, etc. Then this person asked why? WW says she just does. The friend then asked, do you have a lover? She said no, but she wants one, but is not willing to do that living with me (I night have misheard the last part but I think that is what was said).
I'm going to be blunt - from her comments above, it's apparent your WW has decided at this point that she wants to be with anyone *but* you. Trying to "appease" her is likely going to put you into the dreaded "friend" territory. Standing up for yourself is going to likely have her get even more annoyed because she'll lose that feeling that she is in control of the situation.
As I suggested, she sounds very much like a "Walkaway wife", and my previous advice to you on the matter still stands. Set a timetable for Plan A and stick to it (yes, it's possible that a good Plan A could lead to your WW changing her mind about her relationship with you, but it's important that your Plan A makes you look like a desireable spouse, not just a good friend). And protect your finances. Make sure you take the lead, in either recovering your M, or recovering from it.
Can you help me understand more your comment of looking like a desirable spouse versus a friend? What exactly should I do differently?
My focus in my plan A the last 6 weeks since the OM died has been to meet as many ENs as possible that she would let me. This has mainly been domestic support and loads and loads of family and kid time (SuperDad), with conversation thrown in if we can get past the A talks or her wanting to negotiate moving out (this is harder but there has been some progress and I deflect/avoid these 2 issues well). She would have run weeks ago if I had enabled her with any financial support and agreed to this 2 apartments idea she has, but the job she took once she decided to run off to the OM's city before he died (to live as a single mom with our two kids since OM was not leaving HIS wife) pays little and she does not have enough financial resources, or any really, to do this w/o my help. I am giving no help but she thinks I will eventually from her words. She was actually talking to this friend to see if she could help her find work, but from what I heard it is unrealistic (like a lot of her expectations and visions the last few months!).
Is the WD from the A a big part of these feelings?
I feel like I understand alot more of what is going on after the call with S.H. Even though it had the positive impact that it killed the A., the OM death seems to have made this way harder than usual, and made the OM a martyr and put WW into extreme fog-ville.
He recommended an approach I never would have thought of. I now understand how MB is plan-oriented!
My WW does not believe she can ever love me again. She categorically dismisses this idea in her mind that we can fall in love again, so the first step is to open up in her mind that this is in fact possible.
Her big thing now is buying acar for herself. i tis funny. She can't even drive, bless her heart, but she wants a car??!!! About 2 weeks ago she asked me to buy her a car and I said I will once we reconcile and she says "See, that was a test, and you failed!" I thought to myself. "yeah, a test to see if I have lost IQ points recently..."
Well, let me offer some slightly different advice here. Some Plan A-ish advice.
Offer to give WW driving lessons. Does she have a license? A learner's permit?
Anywho, it she can legally drive, you take her out for 15-20 minute lessons. Why? Love bank deposits, for one. UA time for two.
What'cha'think?
But, under no circumstances do you buy her anything pricy while she is wayward.
Thanks helpfordad, you give me hope, which is something I find myself sometimes losing, though not losing as often as much as a month ago. My confidence is increasing now with S.H.'s input.
Step-by-step, and I will keep doing the best I can.
That's a good idea Pepperband, thanks for thiking outside of the box (my box anyway!).
My thinking also was to avoid a big purchase while she is wayward. Why reward her for this behavior? That does not make sense to me. I did tell her though that I would happily by her a car once we reconcile!
She just seems so set on the idea of leaving no matter what. I have to not think about that or I get depressed and lose hope. Instead I have to focus on keeping my changes going and the plan.
One more thing....and I hope this isn't TMI, but may give you some hope:
Last night, with the kids out of the house, W and I had some beautiful UA time -- specifically SF time -- together.
A text from her today:
"You are my life and I am glad we have deep intimacy -- you are special and you are my everything..I look forward to a beautiful date tonight with you, my prince xoxo"
This, after exposure...after divorce threats...after hearing OM and she had a 'connection'...after getting the "But, I'm not IN love with you speech..
Thanks helpfordad for the encouragement, it is not TMI. I have been told by many that I am super patient and keep trying on something after they would have quit long before. I have to lean on that trait now.
I need a better way to respond to these threats of her leaving with the kids to her mom's (in another city). She can't afford any place of her own w/o my support, so her only "threat" is to run with the kids to her mom's. Calmly state that the kids will not leave this house w/o my agreement? Over and over again? Being firm and consistent in a calm and low-key but strong way seems to work well with her to get her to calm down and back off.
Yesterday she played a trick on me to "test" me. I am on a business trip for 2 nights and wrote her by skype to set-up kid time that night. She said don't bother, we're leaving to my mom's. She said this because she got pissed at me before I left and she was trying to get back at me (she admitted this later). I got angry and called her, called her a liar because she promised she would not do this without my agreement, she said it was a joke and "test" to see if I qould threaten her. I called that cruel and she later apologized and said she was just angry and she was wonrg, I do not deserve her, she is a bad person, blah blah blah.
Let her know that if she does that you will file an emergency order to have the kids returned to the marital home.
Let her know you aren't fooling around. Bluff and say you've already talked to a lawyer about it based on her threats.
Be calm and very clear that you won't tolerate any such move or take it lying down.
The kids stay in their home.
Go out and get a book called Father's Rights.
WW's huff and puff and bluff a lot. It's on you to clarify that no such thing will be tolerated.
I would consult a lawyer if I were you and have them on standby if necessary because you wil have to file such a motion if she tries that. It is one of the most common dirty tricks that women pull on men and men lose because they don't kick it in the butt early enough.
The men who win custody are the ones who fight it legally.
The ones who lose are the ones who basically let their wives do such things without a fight.
Take it from someone who allowed such a thing to happen at first. I waited too long to fight it and it was way too late at that point.
I would say, "If you do any such thing I will file an emergency order to have the kids returned to the house. I will file for sole physical and legal custody and request an order that forbids the kids to be taken out of the state. What would you like for dinner? Want to go to a movie?"
Be James Bond. Be cool. Be calm. Calmness and showing you're sure of yourself will take you a long way with a WW.
Thanks helpthelostdads. I have bluffed this the times she has tried this, she blows up, but then backs down. I will hang tough. It is a narrow road and sometimes hard to keep my cool when she threatens this because it is always in response to some other incident/issue that has increased the tension, often involving me setting boundries with her criticizing me in front of the kids, her own AO aout somehthing, or trying to take control of the situation when the kids act out. I have begun standing up to her in these situations and not withdrawing. She gets pissed. I have to maintain my detachment. When I don't, these things quickly spiral.
Wow, it went exactly as he predicted. WW's first call is this week. I am unsure this will help, but I guess baby steps are what this is about right now. I feel like she is only trying to pacify me, but I guess to be expected.
On to other things, today while discussing this call she told me that she came to the "realization" she was in-love with this OM during her psychotherapy for depression in Spring. She said in therapy she "realized" that since their initial brief relationship in college that her whole life she had loved this guy and this was what was wrong with everything. She swears they did not have a PA during their meeting in August. Who knows, maybe yes maybe no, but regardless she was running to his city with our kids to live with fantasies that I would just bow out as friends, and probably that this guy would eventually leave his wife, but she vehemently denies this. I could not help but point out that this was the reason she was moving to this city, but she of course argued no, other friends there also, etc.
Man, the fog never ceases to amaze. It is like she is blotting out all of the drama, outbursts, and erratic behaviors from September and early October. Now she is calm and seems normal except for this threat to leave, no love, etc.
She also requested that we not discuss the deceased OM ever again. Is this good or bad?
We also agreed not to hurt each other any more and she has become much nicer to me the last few days. She actially came up and hugged me yesterday for no reason. That makes living with her easier of course, and makes it easier for me to make LB deposits. But she is still in her words deadset that she needs us to seperate, find new loves, etc. and reiterated this ad nauseum today.
On my side, her job has dried up alot so her income has dropped to almost zero again now for a couple of weeks. She asked me yesterday what our ground rules were now for money and I said I will financially support her as my wife but not as not my wife. I have become very secretive with our finances, all cards gone, no cash in house. She basicalyl yesterday wanted to ask me for money but I said i would buy her myself what she needed. She gave up and left and said nevermind.
Question: did I committ a LB? Should I provide petty cash as before?
While she persists in the fog even if it is to a dead OM you are not obliged to give any monies to her. She is declining to commit to the marriage so decline to give her any cash.
Tell her you don't like the situation but that you don't trust her.
Also tell her whenever she brings up separation that she knows where the door is, but that the kids stay in the house. Any attempt otherwise will bring court documents and court orders if necessary.
Then ask her if she wants to bake cookies or make dinner together.
Thanks Xau, makes sense to me. I will stick with the tight purse strings then.
Pepperband, you are telling me. I did try to sort of use this today to break fog-ville, e.g. I am sorry your friend died because I am sorry for his WIFE and CHILD that they lost their husband/father. Probably no effect at all. Matyrdom is a tough nut to crack. I mean, what if they had an EA and my WW tried to get it to become more and he rejected my WW and then died? That seems almost like worst case. I cannot beat this martyrdom I am afraid.
Me: Let's look at bunk beds for the kids. WW: Let's wait until after the New Year when we see what will happen. Me: Why? I am not moving regardless. WW: That is so unfair, will not be that way. Me: Why would I move. Anyway, let's see again those bunk beds and look at a new office chair for you.
Thanks helpthelostdads for the advice, and you are right, I do NOT trust her. She knows this, and always replies that she does not trust me either. I stopped trying to argue this trust issue awhile back as it got nowhere and she accused me of stabbing her in the back with threats involving kids. we went in endless circles.
I'd stop her when she starts with the crap of not trusting you. Remind her that you've done nothing. Remind her that she's the one who betrayed the trust in the worst way possible.
Don't back down.
Then change the subject.
If she pursues it or argues that you need to go, just make it clear, "I'm not going anywhere. I'm staying and the kids are staying. If you want to leave I can't stop you. I'd rather work on our marriage. Now lets talk about how we're going to decorate the kids rooms."
She also requested that we not discuss the deceased OM ever again. Is this good or bad?
We also agreed not to hurt each other any more and she has become much nicer to me the last few days. She actually came up and hugged me yesterday for no reason. That makes living with her easier of course, and makes it easier for me to make LB deposits.
But she is still in her words deadset that she needs us to seperate, find new loves, etc. and reiterated this ad nauseum today.
It is usually suggested you get a chance to ask all the questions you need to heal. She should provide you 100% honest answers. When that finishes, then the affair should never be brought up ever again.
Do you have unanswered questions? If yes, then let her know you want a chance to ask questions (put them in written context also). Once you get your answers, then you will never discuss this again. You need this to help you heal.
She is still in the mindset that there was no affair (her words), and this is a critical issue for me: she does not see the EA as an affair or as cheating on me. She is reluctant still to reveal things, I think she thinks I will use them against her if we go to court, or maybe she really downplays the emotional connection that developed and how that led her to her decision she was in love with this guy. It is frustrating.
She is still in the mindset that there was no affair (her words), and this is a critical issue for me: she does not see the EA as an affair or as cheating on me. She is reluctant still to reveal things,
In most states when there is a D usually an A does not effect the legal proceedings. Find out for sure then tell WW that what she tells can't be used.
Then tell WW that you will never be able to put the A behind you because the questions haunting you now will haunt you thirty years from now. So if WW wants you to heal and put this in the past then she needs to do some answerin'.
Have you called into the radio program? I would send Joyce Harley an email explaining the situation.
Then Dr. Harley will advise you on what you need to do next. It is free, and I bet will give you the answer you are seeking.
mbradio@marriagebuilders.com
She is still wayward, so my only advice now is to keep trying to meet all her needs without lovebusting. This will be tough. I suspect Plan B may be on the horizon.
Yes, she is still wayward. Even though the OM died, she wants to live seperately regardless since she feels no love for me and is hopeless it can be recreated.
I spoke with S.H. last week for the first time and he gave me an approach to persuade her to speak with him. Her call is tomorrow and I have a follow-up one afterwards. Should I write Joyce also do you think?
itistoughlove, thanks for the response. But if no A (OM dead, I also heard her say privately to a friend she has no other lovers), is plan B a response? It seems best to plan A and meet her needs as long as possible, or am I mistaken? I have been trying to meet her needs and avoid LBs now for 2 months. OM died end Sept, so NC for about 7 weeks. Things are better, meaning her WD has lessened alot, she is now nice to me most days, we spend family time together, we had one date day, etc. Blow ups do still happen though and she says she wants to leave at end of year after the holidays (but to where? no finances), no love possible, etc.
I mean, I realize this cannot go on forever, and the danger is that she could start another affair in a few months, but how long is too long? I heard Dr. Harley say once on the radio program for a man to man-up, be tough, and plan A for 2 years (he had plan A'd for 6 months at that point).
This AM we talked about an upcoming trip to the US for the holidays, she asked "do you want me to go?"
Me: "yes, it is a family trip. me and the kids are going, I hope you join us."
WW: "are you going to divorce me in the US?" She seemed upset by this, it came out of nowhere.
Me: "No, we are going on a family vacation. My intention is to continue working on the M, that has not changed."
WW: "OK. I have my call with S.H. this afternoon. Can you resend the e-mail? I lost it and can't seem to find it. I need to do those questionnaires."
Me: "ok, will resend." I think she might have read the website about Steve and MB and deleted the mail. But maybe not. Who knows.
WW:Looking emotional "Our summer vacation ruined everything, maybe this one will fix it?"
WW: sits down and starts crying. "If you are unsure this will work (MB), I don't know what to do. I just can't stop thinking about the bad things since our 1st DS was born 6 years ago.I don't know what to do."
Me: Hug her. "it's ok you're upset. We have to forget the past, and focus on now. Now is what will determine our future"
She then was nice to me the rest of morning and I took kids to school.
Just keep up the good work and she will soften and come around....SH will do wonders, using logic and give her things to think about that she probably hasn't.... hope it all goes well today..........
Thanks jessitaylor for the encouragement. And you are exactly right on the logic and new ways of thinking, this was his approach and it made sense to me, and my WW told me also he seemed to know what he was talking about, had a scientific approach, etc.
We have a long ways to go, so step by step. I am more hopeful and just gotta keep working the plan to the best of my ability.
An update, advice and analysis/feedback appreciated:
She had call with Steve. She said his ideas seemed logical and she seemed (dare I say it) open to working with him. He gave her some homework (EN and LB questionnaires and reading concepts), which she said she will do this week and she asked for our first joint call call to be in second part of this week. Ok, so far so good.
On Friday (after her call) we had a pretty good day, friendly and all. I was home for the holiday. But Saturday and Sunday we had friends over, spent time with kids, and she became meaner and meaner to me as the week-end wore on. I am deep in plan A, try continuously to meet her ENs and do things for her, no LBs, but she gets mad when I try to do things for her, and the more I do, the madder and less civil she seems to get. It is frustrating.
This culminates in her going to a play with some friends last night (this is legit, I snooped) and she was looking very nice, I compliment her, even say she is turning me on sexually, which she did not on the surface seem to take well. Then she says "who knows, maybe I'll meet a new acquantaince."
Wow, that hurt. I said "that hurt my feelings that you would say that." She got quiet and said: "I'm sorry, it was just a joke." Then she left for the play while I babysat our kids. When she got back, she was again mean to me.
Steve gave her a dose of reality. Her toxic friends give her a dose of fantasy.
When she is ugly like that with you; it is because she is having a hard time making you the bad guy. She needs you to be the bad guy to keep her fantasy ticking.
Steve gave her work that makes her work, and in her mind she is saying (because of your Plan A), why can't I just keep walking all over him?
She is still wayward, which means keep doing Plan A, continue letting her know your boundaries, and secretly prepare for Plan B.
Boundaries: I will not be in a marriage where my wife gives other men emotional support.
I will not be in a marriage with someone who has independent behavior.
I agree with Tough, Fog is still there, she will be up and down for a while......it's hard to stay patient, just stick to Plan A, and if she gets mean just don't engage, don't take things personally, that is what she wants.......she is trying to get you to giver her a reason she doesn't have to try.......justifying. Steve will show her the light, she is smart she won't be able to disgard his logic..... Make yourself look good, smell good, strong, sensitive and forgiving........ jessi
Thanks tough and jessitaylor. Sometimes her caustic comments and meaness to me do get to me, but I try very hard not to show it and to not take it personally (I am pretty good at this now!), or I ask her not to do it in front of the kids. I do feel she is fishing for a negative "old me" angry response from my taker, but I am determined not to do that, and anyway I do not feel angry about these things she says, only sad that it has come to this. It is discouraging to hear them from her and gets me analyzing the situation again, thinking what I am doing wrong, can do better, etc. I never knew what AOs and DJs were all about before MB.
And you are so right, it is hard to stay patient. This board and your responses help a bunch. Stick to the plan is my daily mantra.
Everyday game-plan: cologne, working out, caring, forgiving, upbeat, un-pressing super-dad and super-husband, esp. in front of her married friends (toxic ones live out of town and only get her side of things unfrotunately). I am now at my college weight, and 3 months of working out with weights has even made my 6 year old comment I try to do breakfast with my shirt off. She notices :0
The biggest challenge right now is getting through her wall to meet her ENs. Some days I do pretty good, some days the wall is up bigtime. She bats down affection though still pretty much all the time, with rare exceptioins, like when she cries about something. It is definitely a war of inches.
"Me: BH (41 yo), WW (40 yo) Marriage: 12 years, together 15 Son 6, Daughter 3 Bomb dropped 5 Sept, still living under one roof but sleep seperately, wife wants to live seperately. EA w OM started early spring, brief PA w OM August, OM died end Sept."
Being OM died WW did not get dumped. There is no the OM only used me for fun.
WW never got to see the OM's true colors and realize that you are the better husband and dad material then willingly dump the OM.
Being neither the dumper or dumpee has left WW in extra thick fog. So you will need extra patience.
Yes, unfortunately that does seem to be the case. The fog swirls, disapates ever so briefly, then swirls back. Still, things are improving which gives me some hope.
I read here the idea to take a calendar and mark good days and bad days to judge progress objectively over time. Seems like a good idea.
Road, the irony is not lost on me that if the OM had lived, that this maybe would have been easier since he was married and refused to leave his wife.
I remember when my husband didn't give me the time of day, but I never gave up, he worked with his OW so she had contact with him as well everyday. I just made the house a place for him to escape the talking and gossip others were spreading about he and his mistress....... I cooked and always looked good, I showed him I was a loving mother and wife in the midst of my own life being torn apart..........I acted with grace and dignity...... I used the power of touch at first, I would ask for hugs because I was upset(wink) I would brush lint of his shirt, touch his shoulders or brushed against an arm or leg reaching for something, when I spoke I looked right into his eyes....... touched his had when I spoke, listened as he spoke about what his trials were now that exposure of what he had done was out in the open...... I did little things that he may do for himself but didn't have to because I had taken care of it........he noticed, thanked me, I used the word thank you a lot....... I told him I understood his feelings and how he got himself into the mess he was in...... It took some time but finally after 8 months or so. He came around little by little..........your wife has a different issue, the Om has left her with all the feelings she had for him in her memory........Just like anyone else we lose in time it fades and we move on with reality, she will do the same, you just have to wait her out...... She will eventually understand why, how and what it really was.........an affair....... The OM dying has complicated her emotions ............not forever but until she lets that go............she will understand one day her future wasn't with OM that he was staying with his wife..........
Thanks jessi for the encouragement. Patience, patience and more patience seems to be the key to getting through this. I remember reading earlier, this is a marathon and not a sprint and I did not really grasp this then, but now I am starting too.
Last night was a good night, dinner as a family, looking at relative's photos on line with WW, no mean comments from WW, time with kids, etc. It actually felt normal again. This morning was also ok. Let's see what tonight will bring
I have got to get into the "casual accidental" touching thing more. I do try to do this alot and it goes well. We had some of that last night. I don't know if I am reading more into this than I should, but she never pulls away when I do this even if the casual accidental touch is a long one. But if I intentionally touch her, she pulls away fast. Even when we have had hugs whe I have conforted her a few times, they only last a few seconds before she pulls away.
I just found out I have to be out of the country for work all of next week. Positively, then I am back for a week and then we all go on vacation in the US for one month and stay at my parents (trying to organize a family disney trip for one week too during that month).
Advice, thoughts on being away next week? I realize Dr. Harley says avoid nights away, but it is unavoidable. I am really upset I have to be away right now.
What about the family trip out of the country for one month with the kids? We will be sharing one bedroom with the kids and then a hotel room if we do disney. This has to help connect us, or am I being overly hopeful?
Being together for a month is good for you two.......just keep it relaxed and focus on fun with your wife and family........ While you are away stay in contact, email, text........give her a place to talk about kids, life......... Take it a day at a time, I hope tonight goes well, keep it light and easy, Thank her for anything she does, enjoy supper and the kids.......try to laugh a little to release the stress you two feel....... Slowly she will let that guard go and come around........... Patience and integrity.............. I think you are one of the lucky ones, I will my husband's OW would fall off the face of the earth...............
Thanks jessi for the words of wisdom. Last night was also good, dinner all together including kids. No meaness or AOs, except when putting my daughter to bed. I closed the door accidentally and she got angry and yelled at me. I told her calmly that yelling at me in front of the kids is not allowed. Later she came in and made another daughter request but did it quietly and said "dear (forced), can you please not..." At least no AO!
And I sympathize with you on the OW thing. I do not know how my reactions would have been if the OM had lived, and if the A had continued. She probably would have absconded with the kids to move to his town, she was that out of her head and in this fantasy.
I do admit that when I knew the OM had died that although the father in me felt sorry for his little kid, the husband in me was happy as heii that he was no longer a direct threat to my family and kids' futures. It is the truth. I just hope my wife understands one day that he was going to use her as his side thing and even told her he had no intention to leave his wife.
Of course she will not admit this yet that she was moving to his town to convince him to leave his wife because it messes up the fantasy, everyone divorcing happily, them being together, me and OMW being "replaced", etc. Maybe she will get it in time.
We have our first joint Steve call tomorrow morning.
Tonight, another good night overall. Got home and told her I would have to leave the country for a week for work, she got really upset and out of the blue asked if I was going to divorce her while in the US. This is the second time she has asked this when I have traveled to the US. I held her hand (she even let me hold her hand!!!), reassured her no while looking her in eyes, I am working on marriage, we are working with Steve, what he says makes sense, it is only for work, I'll get back and then we'll all go as a family for one month in the States. She let me hug her briefly before pulling away.
Later, she mentioned I no longer give her money for bills (I have become tight with cash while she is wayward, esp. since she is working part-time from home and saving her own money now), I asked how much is needed, she tells me, then she jokes she will have to start having SF with me for money to pay for things. I jokingly respond, how much do you need, always ready, etc. I almost think she was serious and wanting to justify in her mind having SF, but perhaps I am reading too much into this...
Gave her my old gaming computer for her at-home work and set it up for her, took DD for walk in snow, we then shared a chocolate bar. She is downstairs filling our the EN and LB questionnaires for Steve for our call tomorrow, joking with me if changing a lightbulb at midnight (I do this often) qualifies to write as an annoying behavior.
This is crazy. Last week I felt hopeless, this week I see my old wife coming back.
It happens little by little, the more she sees you as her safe place I like the way you held her hand looked right into her eyes and connected with her and reassured her, she probably felt very safe and loved in that moment...... The little hug was good, my husband used to pull away or not really hang on at first when he start pulling me closer and actually hugging me I knew he was turning a corner ..............little things like that will show you she is back, try to laugh a little and joke it's a good thing........Let her feel safe.. Happy for you Blackhawk
Helping her feel safe seems important right now. I will work on that some more whenever I can. I need to think how I can reassure her more often.
It is the little gestures that add up I guess. We had a big pile of clothes to iron and she said to me not to worry about them (I have been doing ALL ironing since Sept when this began, so even her saying not to worry about them was sort of a big deal to me), she would iron them, but she got busy with work/kids and did not do it for a couple of days, so I did it last night before I went to bed. She went to get some clothes this morning and said something like "wow, I can't believe he ironed everything again" to my son. She was surprised, but in a good way from what I overheard. Little gestures add up.
I once read here a post by a guy named Mark about throwing pebbles into a pond that then fall below the surface, and eventually if you throw enough pebbles the pile of pebbles grows big enough to break through the water. But you can't see the pebble pile under the water, so you never really can be sure if you are making progress or not until the pebbles break the top of the water when the pile is big enough. I am always looking for pebbles to throw into that pond...
You have the plan now, when you first met your wife that is what happened that is how you fell in love.....It didn't happen in a day either....... You sound very solid in your thinking and you seem to have the awareness to know what to do so she feels protected and important...... It won't be long now where she will be in the same place about you and your needs, don't ever get caught up in your needs not being met yet, no expectations, right now it's about her. Just enjoy the time you spend together and your family being in tact still....... eye on the big picture, your future, happily in love with your wife and raising your children in a happy enviorment.
Jessi, I appreciate the encouragement. It really helps keep me focused.
Had a really good day again today. We sat down in the morning and discussed the EN questionnaire as Steve instructed for about 2 hours. We then spent the afternoon clothes shopping and running errands together. Tonight was family time, dinner and alot of laughing and horsing around all together with the kids. Alot of "casual" and accidental touching all day from me
After we completed the 2 hour EN discussion, she told me she understands now the mechanics (ENs, LBs, logic), how it works, and she said she thinks Steve's approach does work (!), but then she added she is unsure if it will work for us yet.
Tomorrow we do the LB questionnaire, and then I leave tomorrow night for a week after spending the day with her and the kids. Our next call with Steve is early next week.
Had a good morning with family all together. She had an AO when dressing kids for outside but apologized to me immediately.
We did the LB questionnaire after lunch. It was so-so and sort of tough and intense for me sometimes. She said it was fine for her but I could tell she was hiding some discomfort and was getting defensive about my indepedent behavior LB explanation.
Anyway, it went fine overall and I guess as well as could be expected (Steve warned us). After the EN one we were both really positive. After this one I felt drained. We had a good evening anyway though later in the day.
Our next step is a joint call early next week with Steve...
Left for my week-long overseas trip. She made dinner for us before I left. As I left, she stood at the door and we said bye twice standing there awkwardly, each time smiling sweetly at each other. Maybe I should have went for a hug, but I did not, too tired of being rejected. At least I got some casual accidental touching in today and I got in a couple of shoulder squeezes. She does not reject touching if there is a reason or by accident, e.g. leaning over each other in kitchen. She will even let it linger (and I really play that card for all its worth). But she acts like it burns to have any kind of intentional touch. I guess to be expected...
Gotta keep working the plan...
I think I am pretty good now at having eliminated most LBs, and my info from her questionnaire will let me take care of the rest. But her ENs, she put honesty (figures...) high and SF and then conversation. We have had some flirting but I do not see SF happening anytime soon. Am I right to just focus then on the top 5 ENs I can meet? Perhaps a Steve question...
I think I need to start mind-stopping and to stop analyzing things so much or something. I just sat on an intercontinental flight and thought about this crap for 6 hours out of 10 hours, with only movies being a workable distraction, and all of these doubts and negative thoughts hit me in waves again and again. I am my worst enemy.
Since we have began calls with Steve, my WW has accepted the idea theoretically that being in love with the father of her biological children (me!) is the ideal situation for her greatest happiness.
She has fully completed and discussed with me the EN and LB questionnaires for 5 hours all together last week, she remembers the weekly calls each week and even reminds me of them w/o prompting, and finally has stated that she thinks this stuff works twice (!), but does still not think or is unsure it will work for US (twice)!!!
She eveb said yesterday that regardless, these calls have really gotten each of us to treat the other one so much better. Frankly, my approach has not changed ONE BIT!! But she has become alot nicer the last 2 weeks on most days, and her bad days and verbal attacks are now growing much more infrequent. She even apologized yesterday after one AO that she was over-reacting and she then fully calmed down. It was AMAZING and UNSEEN in our entire relationship for her to be so self-aware in the middle of an AO. This has to be from the LB questionnaire talk and her own after-talk thinking.
AAAgghhh!!!
I need some patience and humility. There are so many people on these boards that are in worst places than me. I still have my WW and kids all in one place living with me, we have a month-long family vacation planned for Christmas/New Years where we will be staying in one room all together for 4 weeks and I have enourmous opps for LB deposits, and we have Steve personally helpign guide us in these early steps.
But I cannot escape these thoughts that I still am losing everything and am not doing enough!
I think I need to start mind-stopping and to stop analyzing things so much or something. I just sat on an intercontinental flight and thought about this crap for 6 hours out of 10 hours, with only movies being a workable distraction, and all of these doubts and negative thoughts hit me in waves again and again. I am my worst enemy.
Since we have began calls with Steve, my WW has accepted the idea theoretically that being in love with the father of her biological children (me!) is the ideal situation for her greatest happiness.
She has fully completed and discussed with me the EN and LB questionnaires for 5 hours all together last week, she remembers the weekly calls each week and even reminds me of them w/o prompting, and finally has stated that she thinks this stuff works twice (!), but does still not think or is unsure it will work for US (twice)!!!
She eveb said yesterday that regardless, these calls have really gotten each of us to treat the other one so much better. Frankly, my approach has not changed ONE BIT!! But she has become alot nicer the last 2 weeks on most days, and her bad days and verbal attacks are now growing much more infrequent. She even apologized yesterday after one AO that she was over-reacting and she then fully calmed down. It was AMAZING and UNSEEN in our entire relationship for her to be so self-aware in the middle of an AO. This has to be from the LB questionnaire talk and her own after-talk thinking.
AAAgghhh!!!
I need some patience and humility. There are so many people on these boards that are in worst places than me. I still have my WW and kids all in one place living with me, we have a month-long family vacation planned for Christmas/New Years where we will be staying in one room all together for 4 weeks and I have enourmous opps for LB deposits, and we have Steve personally helpign guide us in these early steps.
But I cannot escape these thoughts that I still am losing everything and am not doing enough!
I guess I need some encouragement or something...
Hang in there. There is progress. She doesn't see it as her making it, but that's what it is. You can do this.
You said it yourself Blawkhawk, she has changed in the last 2 weeks, she is making changes for herself and the way she interacts with you......I think you have a lot to look to as a positive, just keep doing what you are doing.....little by little she will fall in love with you all over again. It does take a lot of patience I remember how I always just wanted to fix things today with one conversation and why didn't he just get it........we just want our lives back and to be in love and to have a happy family...... She could be gone if she really wanted to, she has hope or she would be........ Let Steve help you, learn to meet each other's needs, use your words and show her every day, you are there for her, that you are committed........ While your away, leave her emails, texts.........ask her if she is alright and that you worry about her when you aren't there, that you are looking forward to the family holiday, use certain things she will like to do during that time.....get her thining of the happy times that will happen for your family......tell her how you have noticed how she is changing and that you appreciate it........... one day at a time, little by little........you have a lot of hope, the holidays is a great time to connect........ don't worry so much, enjoy the time you do have with her ...........
You are of course right. I just sometimes get down about this and start to second guess things. I was more detached when this thing started and did not even think about the future. Now I do see some progress, and start to worry about the future. I need to detach more and avoid expectation.
Today we have had 3 seperate Skype chats about this and that, she will send me stuff like a store address to visit, or she will have our DD call me, then I write some banal stuff back, and we babble for a bit about nothing. We are now saying bye to each other when we sign off. I forget already how bad it was last time I traveled. She was begging for me to let her go, etc. Hard to believe that was only about 6 weeks ago!
I got back from my trip last night. WW was affectionate and hugged me (unusual). She also thanked me with a kiss on the neck for a gift I got her (first kiss in 4 months!).
This morning she hugged me again, full hug. Then she later did this again and we stood there for about 30 seconds in a full hug, she then initiated SF.
It then all fell apart when we went to the bedroom. Took off clothes, lay there, then she suddenly jumps up, starts to cry, says "I thought I could do this but I can't." I ask her to just lay together and talk. She refuses and leaves the room.
Thast was this morning. Now we are just going about our day. She is very friendly. We continue to have lots of incidetal touching, etc.
She just apologized for this morning. Said she was sorry, she has things she has to work through.
I suggested talking with Steve about it during our next call. She did not like me suggesting this. She said she would appreciate it if I do not try to guide her, this should be her idea, not mine. I agreed and asked her to always tell me if she thinks I am over stepping and "guiding" her. She said: "I just did."
Then we talked about some clothes I bought and I tried them on for her. She remains nice and friendly to me.
Thanks PleaseSetMeFree, I appreciate your encouragement. I do my best to take one day at a time.
Trying to have SF with me is what through me for a loop. I was on a trip last week, and we kept up good conversations daily. Now I get back and she wants to be affectionate to me for the first time since August. I just wasn't expecting it I guess. It is like some switch flipped in her head while I was gone and she today was really nice to me, ironing my shirts, buying what I like to eat. I am just surprise is all. She has not done thinsg like this since this all started.
I have not posted in a while, so I guess an update is in order! We spent a month together with the kids on vacation through the holidays, lots of great memories and times together, and in fact I think one of the best vacations of my life and our marriage. SF started again during the end of the trip and now has become daily the last 8 days since we got back.
Also, once we returned home she sat down and told me she has decided to stay in our marriage (yeah!!!) and that "you win". I told her it is not about me or her winning as we can together make our marriage something we both enjoy and cherish. She cried and then she said I don't love her, but I said strongly I do, then she asked to have SF (that was about a week ago and has been daily since then).
On the downside, we have so much left to work on. We were doing weekly calls with Steve but she does not want to continue that right now (I think she feels manipulated), although I am w/o DJs trying to get her to change her mind. Two things bother me most at this juncture: we have SF every morning but we still sleep in seperate beds during the evening (DD sleeps with her). Steve game me an approach to use on this and I am working on it.
The other thing, she is not wearing her ring yet (she has not worn it in 6 months). Thoughts on how to bring this up? Is this common?
Just keep going with Plan Aing her and building a great relationship, it is going to take some extra time with your situation.....because the OM died, she only sees a good man she never got to a place where she saw anything defects, we all have them.....a fantasy image is harder to deal with...... But as time passes she will move on just like any loss.........real life will be more important than the fantasy life...... I say you are making great headway, I would slowly try to change the sleeping arrangements if you can, maybe after your daughter falls asleep put her back in her bed and you crawl in with her......try to make that more regular than not sleeping in the same bed.......she will need it after a while...... Make her feel as safe as you can and be as thoughtful to her needs as you can be, that is important to her right now, knowing someone is there for her.....you feel alone after a loss........ Start planning the next get away, or the next day out together, anything that includes conversation and laughing, car ride in the countryside, lunch at a little hidden place....... she probably does feel a loss of control, she had a life in her mind and that fantasy is gone, she is having a hard time with what her own reality is because of her choices......she will figure it out.........just make her world safe and loving...... I think you are doing great, keep talking to Steve even if she isn't up to it right now.......but encourage her........ keep us posted
Thanks Jessi for the insights. Steve said the greatest danger right now is complacency (from both of us) so I am staying focused and will keep plan A'ing. I'll schedule a call with Steve soon too. The bed thing is something I'll keep working on with her.
Time for another update. I am really down today. We have been having SF regularly, enjoyable for both of us, and spending 1-2 afternoons together alone each week. Kids are happy, we are not fighting and few LBs from both sides.
Then the day before Valentine's day she started to withdraw I perceived. On Valentine's Day, I took a chance and decided to experiment. I gave her a hand written note, very sweet and complimenting her phsyically and saying how much I cherish her, appreciate her and thanked her for being her. She seemed unhappy to receive it. We had SF the next day. Then she started saying she did not want to have SF (it was 4-5 times per week for the last month), although we still watched movies together and had pleasant interactions all week, just the SF disappeared. I kept suggesting nicely, she kept shooting me down.
The next day she said (not verbatim): "We can't have love again, but I guess I will keep living with you until the kids reach 18 (that is 12-15 years from now) for the kids. You control/make the money so I have no choice." I countered with "let's make our marriage something we both enjoy, etc."
Over the weekend, we had a moment when I called her "wife." She reacted horribly and said "only on paper, you say you love me, if so don't say this and hurt me." I respectfully disagreed and said we are married, not just on paper. She said, "stop, or i'll leave." I said I am happy we are here together and changed the subject, I could not think of what else to do at the time. Later she tried to argue with me about something inconsequential, saying "stop arguing for once and be a man, can oyu for once act like a man?" I let it pass over me and changed the subject.
I have kept suggesting SF each day and she has kept shooting me down this week. Last night we had both drank some wine and had a small fight. Then I saw her on FB talking about a computer repair issue with her friend's husband. I asked her why had she friended him and she said it was innocent (she did not try to hide the exchange) and asked "can I not have male friends now?" She became very pissed. I know this is a danger zone but did not know how to say so without educating her.
The week w/o SF, together with the wine and then me saying a friend's husband talking with her on FB just set me off inside. I became so upset that later I went to the bed where she is sleeping with our daughter and tried to talk with her about continuning with Steve, progress was being made, etc. (Steve has asked me to continue to try to chip away at her resistance and remind her). She told me to go away but I kept trying to respectfully without LBs discuss it. She said that "there was no progress, it was all fake, I do not want to be with you, i do not want to have SF with you, you think I was doing that to meet your ENs but I was only enjoying myself and now I do not want to have SF with you, you promised we would work on this through the end of the year if I agreed to work with Steve and you lied so I am stuck here with you" (her wrong assumption is I would then agree to D or supporting her financially in seperation, I never said that). I said we started with Steve, progress was being made, let's keep trying, etc. I told her good night after that and frankly with the wine and I guess my expectations after so much progress, I had a sort of breakdown (by myself, don't worry, I know better than to let her see this).
It is my perception that everything began to go south around V-Day. I wonder if this was a trigger for her? I see on one of her websites that she was listening to alot of moody music on the 13th. Can WWs trigger around anniversarys or important days?
another comment made by WW: "I don't want to work with Steve, I do not love you, i do not respect you, I odn't want to live wiht you but to avoid fighting over all of these issues with you in D, i will livewith you until the kids turn 18." "Stop trying to control me, I don't believe in it (MB, Steve), it does not work." "Our marriage was a mistake and sorry I pressured oyu into it."
I realize alot of this is classic WW fog-babble. But man it hurt at the time.
i also saw saw her speaking with a girlfriend I don't know around the 14th, and my intuition is she is somehow connected to all of this whole thing. Early days through x-mas, this person and her kids were on my WWs sreensaver, together with pics of her college friends from 20 years ago. now our family pics are back. before that, had never seen her before. maybe she is an enabler or sonehow connecetd to the dead OM.
I think last night she saw me as needy with the pushing to talk about working on the M. I have not shown neediness in a long time, but the frequent SF, now being with-held, is really depressing me and I feel like we have relapsed. We have an all day hike planned for Friday so I hope this helps. I think a lack of UAT last week and then the v-day holiday have gutted us. Our situation is so fragile. Gotta keep plan A'ing...
i also saw saw her speaking with a girlfriend I don't know around the 14th, and my intuition is she is somehow connected to all of this whole thing. Early days through x-mas, this person and her kids were on my WWs sreensaver, together with pics of her college friends from 20 years ago. now our family pics are back. before that, had never seen her before. maybe she is an enabler or sonehow connecetd to the dead OM.
The gut is always right.
OM was an XBF from years ago and this friend is most likely part of that past social group.
This "friend" could of even helped WW and OM to re connect after all these years. Yes your WW needs to go NC with this group of people and get rid of FB as well to ensure NC and prevent triggering.
I appreciate your attention to my situation. Getting rid of FB (plus 2 other FB clones she uses to contact old schoolmates which I do not have access to) is gonna be a battle royale as she really values the friends she has on there, old college ones and others. She will flat out refuse for now and I hesitate to even bring it up as I think she will see it as me being controling and a big LB. I realize it is needed for transparency. I will discuss with Steve tomorrow. I have a call with Steve every 2 weeks since WW stopped the weekly calls.
It is really a crappy situation. The FB/FB ocntact is what enabled the A to grow, and she is still glued to that stuff for talking with her old friends. She works remotely for another old college friend that is also part of that group. Frankly, it only really got better when we were in the US for a month w/o FB and her computer. We made progress, lots of UAT and then SF started at the end of that month. I feel like we are now spinning our wheels. I won the battle on getting her to stay at home, but the battle is on to see if she will recommitt to the marriage.
Yeah, you're driving her away with your beta tactics. So the agreement (in her mind) is that you financially support her. She will deny you sex and disrespect you. When the kids turn 18 she will leave you.
No one seems to understand. She is feeling trapped. Why? because she does not value your marriage. I guess if the goal is for her to use you till the kids are 18, well its a goal? You see she never lost anything of value (she didn't lose you, you have proven that).
Isn't it amazing that the little you pushed back, changed her attitude somewhat. Imagine if you really set boundaries, and stuck with them. You have tried a beta style so far. How is that working for you? Try going alpha and see where it goes. If she will not join you in counseling with Steve, what exactly do you try now?
If you want to try an alpha approach. First off tell her that if she thinks that you are staying in a loveless marriage with her for the next 15 years, she is high. Next tell her that the comfort and security you provide to her is no reason to stay together and that she would be using you. Not gonna happen. Tell her you are separating accounts. The only one here being controlled by the other, is you.
Its time you stop saying "you are my wife", and to start saying "I deserve better" You have tried your approach for months. She has used you for sex, money, security. Let her experience the consequences of what she has done. What do you have to lose? A cheating, lying, manipulative, selfish drama queen.
They are constantly keeping her triggered and the longer this continues the more abuse and cruelty you will receive.
Friends/family supportive of adultery have a value system that isn't comparable to our system ... this gets them more and more entrenched with crossing boundaries ... if a friend even once encourages her WW to lie to her husband ... then you know as time continues the behavior will become more and more lax ... one lie here another lie there ... socializing with male friends here ... emotionally attaching to them there.
Friends/family supportive of adultery do not have proper boundaries in place to protect anyone and it turns into a deceptive and dishonest relationship.
The goal is to surround your WW with people of a higher level value system, so she can climb the ladder and live by those values.
She is still in an active affair if she is constantly triggered. She is likely being triggered on a fantasy that she would like to create. The lovebank of OM is high and until she is NC with anything that will trigger her it will remain high. This is dangerous because she may start to go out and look for another man who can recreate that high again.
It has to be NC for life on everything related to the adultery.
I appreciated the feedback and thanks again for your earlier posts way back when. I 100% control all finances (her decision early in our marriage, not my idea) except the small income she has from a part-time job and she uses that regularly to help pay some expenses. All retirement accounts are primarily in my name and I have control. She can't leave unless she either abandons the kids and/or she goes and lives with her mom absconding with the kids. This is why she has never left and in her WW mind she is justifying staying in the marriage because that other life w/o my support is not so attractive and the kids want to be in their home. Earlier I refused to talk any kind of seperation or support and told a D willl be hell and I will use every last $ I have to fight paying her anything and to get 100% custody, and we will never speak again or be friends in any way. She has never worked except part time since we married (my job requires periodic relocations to new countries and/or cities), so her options are limited.
That being said, plan A has had its ups and downs. Things have gotten better when we were both using Steve. Now we go back down the roller coaster. I hear what you are saying on boundries and stating my terms. I will work on this and also discuss this idea with Steve tomorrow.
I agree with you that I have not pushed back except in a measured way as best as I can w/o LBs. I try to be matter of fact and w/o emotion when I speak about MB. Last night with the wine I got too caught up in it and also have lately started to have expectations. These are hurting my plan A it seems.
As I understand you are advocating 2 things: setting higher boundries and also going to plan B. My understanding is that plan B is for an active affair or when spouses are living apart, but I am by no means an expert on this.
Thanks TheRoad for the advice and yes I am continuing regular calls with Steve. He has helped get us where we are and I plan to keep this up. My next one is tomorrow.
I do not consider having self respect as either plan "A" or plan "B", I just consider it having self respect. Respect (including self) can exist without love. But love cannot live without respect.
How does she talk to you? With contempt? Sounds like.
I cannot understand how debasing yourself to your cheating mate can result in anything but contempt.
Ihanks for paying attention to my thread. I read this site daily and appreciate your advice and all the others' advice as well. I consider it an honor to get advice from you all.
Your comment on the affect of triggers seems spot on and would explain alot. I recall indiegirl saying something similar back in October when I first posted. WW is still in la la land, but the fog does regularly lift now. These triggers pull her back in. I also worry about starting to findi a new OM since she devalues our M so much right now. It is a slippery slope.
She mainly now talks to me nicely without AOs. She will make DJs but not like before. That has really improved until I make some comment about working onthe M through Steve or her being my wife. Then she talks often with disrepect and contempt. Yesterday was really bad and the worse it has been since November (when we began using Steve). I showed neediness and she pounced on it. This morning she was friendly again. I am curious about tonight, how friendly she will be.
I hear your point on self respect. I agree.
I need to work on my responses when these M issues come up. I may be coming off as pleading without realizing it.
Think back to your courtship. How did you act then? Did she look up to you? Was she proud to have you? Did she brag about you to others.
NOW, think, is this the way you're acting now? If not, why not? I think your wife has built up a false image of you. And you have been reinforcing it. Why don't you treat her the way you would treat anyone who disrespects you? And no more of "you're my wife" UNTIL SHE DESERVES IT. As wrong as she is, she believes that you are controlling her. When she is really controlling you.
Yes, of course you're right. She did/said all those things. She had/has a good life, one different in a good way, one that I made for us with her help.
The false image is right (I am not saying I am blameless, I realize I neglected many of her ENs for too long). I can only imagine what she has said to those friends of her that are enablers, and even the ones that are not also many have marital problems and all commiserate together. Even worse was the divorced IC she went to last spring that helped her get through her depression, find her feelings that she "had always been in love with the OM" (what a load of...) and advised her to leave me for happiness! Her depression was I guess guilt from the budding EA or desire to start the PA.
Come to think of it, this is probably a trigger also since it was about this time last year she had counseling.
I see your point about reinforcing the false image. And I agree that by her actions now she does not deserve to be my wife.
She is promoting that you live as roommates for the next 12 years.
I really think you need to let her know you're not interested in that. Tell her she either gets on board with fixing the marriage, or you start making plans to seperate. And that message doesn't have to come as an angry outburst -- just a statement of fact.
"Wife, I am not interested in being your roommate. Either we fix this marriage or we seperate. My choice is to fix this. If you refuse to participate in that, I am not interested in staying married to you."
Thanks for your attention to my thread. I hesitate giving her ultimatums. Yet I understand that ultimately this is going to be the question: all in or all out.
I have thought that with a good plan A, I can help her see value in our marriage as she becomes less foggy. I have not yet succeeded judging from her words this last week, although I do think I have moved the game piece forward the last few months, and I have been chipping away at her resolve. regardless, the fogginess is still there though much of the time. She is still wayward.
I have been told by many, including Steve, that the OM death has complicated this. Things will take longer.
I will discuss your suggestion with Steve tomorrow. Thanks for your advice.
I have been told by many, including Steve, that the OM death has complicated this. Things will take longer.
Yea your remedies against OM are rather limited, and OM is now a martyr since he never maturing into a POS.
I actually went to OM4's funeral, to be honest to size up his family, but didn't allow my W to go to the reception afterward.
My W refuses to allow me to ask his family members if he was a lifelong philanderer. Not sure what constitutes just compensation when the OM dies without a confrontation.
Thanks for your post. The martyr issue is frustrating and leaves I guess the whole soulmate thing hanging on alive in her mind. I am not sure if the OM in my situation was philandering but would not surprise me. I am not sure why his first marriage broke up (he was on his second marriage).
Gotta tell you, sick of the soulmate thing (no offence). The only mate to my soul is Jesus. Been married 32 years. Her's is the first face I want to see in the morning and the last at night. But the "soulmate" thing seems to be the biggest BS excuse. If your "soulmate" causes you to sin by breaking your vows and lying and cheating and rutting. That's not the kind of soulmate anyone needs. The only creature that advocates that kinda soulmate is satan.
I am sorry that your wife is still stuck where she is, it must be frustrating, I have to agree with Lexxy, I think enough time has gone by that she should have let go of her fantasy man....... Maybe she needs to feel what losing you and her family feels like........right now she knows you are in her pocket whenever she needs some comfort...... It is to bad you can't find some awful things about that OM that she could accidently find and realize he isn't perfect.......... Talk to Steve and follow what he thinks is best.....this is a tough one for sure...... but not impossible.......... just a bump in the road.......get back on your plan and restart.........
Thanks for your post Jessi. I spoke with Steve and basically he said just keep plan A'ing. He thinks the v-day thing and aftermath was an anomaly and registered in her mind as too initimate given where we stand so her 'radar' went off and walls came up. He made a point that we can only go as fast as the slowest person and we have to keep encouraging and motivating WW at the pace she is confortable with. The love note was too much too soon and set off her alarms and she has pulled away again.
It is frustrating and like chutes and ladders because we got high up the board and then fall down again.
I need to fine tune my messaging with her about our progress when working together on MB and be sure no to come across as pressuring or pleading (I am guilty of a bit of this after the love note was not received well).
He is against giving any ultimatums at this point, and instead wants me to focus on respectful but firm persuasion, while keeping focused on plan A and meeting her ENs. Things are getting through to her regardless, so keep chipping away.
She told me last night she is depressed and is not sleeping well.
Is the depression/negativity from withdrawal starting again, assuming there were v-day triggers last week, and assuming this is what has set us back (recalling the fantasy)?
"Everytime there is contact, the recovery clock is back to zero for both you and your w."
Read this in a recovery post today. As I understand the WS withdrawal clock is the same once there is NC, right? So if WW spent a day week before last thinking of OM, looking at photos, and reigniting all those thoughts, then we are back to zero.
Does this mean she has to go all through withdrawal again? It can't be the same level of intensity.
She is acting depressed but not sure if this is because of last week or because of her internal struggles with all of this. Steve did not really answer this during our call.
Or could this be a situation where the LB balance just fell too far from missing UAT and she slipped from conflict to withdrawal.
This is proably too much analysis. I am somewhat confused.
"Everytime there is contact, the recovery clock is back to zero for both you and your w."
Read this in a recovery post today. As I understand the WS withdrawal clock is the same once there is NC, right? So if WW spent a day week before last thinking of OM, looking at photos, and reigniting all those thoughts, then we are back to zero.
Does this mean she has to go all through withdrawal again? It can't be the same level of intensity.
She is acting depressed but not sure if this is because of last week or because of her internal struggles with all of this. Steve did not really answer this during our call.
Or could this be a situation where the LB balance just fell too far from missing UAT and she slipped from conflict to withdrawal.
This is proably too much analysis. I am somewhat confused.
She never got through withdrawal. All his photos, facebook, etc. (anything associated to him) has to be destroyed by fire or trash. Otherwise she will never get through withdrawal.
I would demand she destroy it all, and get rid of her triggering friends. Once this happens ... you may start recovery.
I think you may be right, the triggers and photos keep her connected to the OM for a couple of days but I am sure once the reality hits that he is no longer here in the flesh her sense of logic will return......each time it should be less time to rebound.....
Just reassure her that you are there for her and if she needs a little extra time you will be there for her........ Get the UA time back on track and restart.........you are a good man sticking this out........ignore the sadness and try to make her smile.......just go on with your usual self ........ being depressed is to sad, she won't want to stay there long.... patience my friend......
Thanks PrayIncessantly for your advice. Won't these momentos fade with time since the OM is dead? In my calls with Steve, he is against ultimatums at this point, and how else could I demand her (destroy them or else...)?
Steve tells me to keep in Plan A because LB deposits are getting through (we still live together).
I have begun to realize how long this is going to take. When we started SF for 6 weeks and she was working with Steve, I had alot of hope. Now I am just treading water. It is difficult to know whether I am chipping away at things or not. Steve says yes. I see other posters here where it took their WS 8 months to defog even when living together. That is really getting me down.
I would love to demand her to destroy these things and sit her down and get her to understand why the A happened but teaching a fogged out WW is counter productive I have learned from all of you. She began working with Steve for about 2 months but is not willing for the last month (and progress has stalled as a result). Steve wants to ask her to speak with him to get her perspective on things he is working with me on, so let's see how that goes.
Has your wife ever posted here? Maybe it would help her to just express her feelings and to read the stories of other's realizations about affairs and the fogginess of the process of having the mind set to have an affair.........
Has your wife ever posted here? Maybe it would help her to just express her feelings and to read the stories of other's realizations about affairs and the fogginess of the process of having the mind set to have an affair.........
His WW doesn't want to talk with Steve so she won't come here.
Blackhawk, as Steve said just keep plan A'ing and make LBD's.
Thanks jessi for your replies. I am plan A'ing as usual and LBs are fully under control. Conversation is one of her high needs and I am finding it difficult to meet this need since we had this pullback (Steve recommended to focus more effort on this one too). SF is another one, but Steve thinks this is actually affection. Another high need is Honesty (ironically).
I guess we are coming down from a peak back into another valley. She seems to have her walls all back-up and is neutral/civil to me right now, sometimes sarcastic/mean, but more just neutral/civil (with foggy exceptions noted above). I am trying to get the incidental touching going again to build some tension. Purposeful touching right now is rejected.
I will spend some time at home with her this week a day or two and see if I can entice her into a hike or lunch or shopping. I suggested a hike last Friday and she declined (she was really bad that day and fell to the floor crying during the day, she spent 1/2 the day in bed). I went on my own to hike anyway. Will try again this week. She was also PMS'ing last week, and she gets mean/emotional during that period so perhaps another driver.
On posting here, as TheRoad noted she is not willing to speak with Steve right now so she won't come here. But a good idea for the future.
Thanks for your reply and support. Plan A continues.
reading,
Wow, an idea I would not have thought of. I like it very much.
Overall, today we have had a couple of humorous moments, so no meaness from her. She has been civil but her walls are up and touching is not allowed. This is discouraging given that less than two weeks ago we were having SF more or less daily! Now, she recoils at my touch. Frustrating. How can she change from SF to loating my touch?
She wants to take a week long trip to her mom's next week with the kids to "get energy from home." She said "I am not inviting you and I do not want you to go, but feel free to come if you wish." Of course, I am going.
After discussing this, I asked her a bit later why did she put back up the full walls last week. She said "I refuse to answer." I told her if she wants to talk about it, I am here and will not judge her no matter what she says. Is this classified as R/M talk, and to be avoided unless she brings it up?
Plan A continues tonight. And yep, would not miss that trip for the world. I'll be driving us up there for 6 hours. Lots of family time, walks, maybe some skating and hiking for an entire week.
No more R/M talks. Think I would have learned my lesson before, but occasionally a 2x4 is needed it seems, even now...
Yesterday she was nice, but today she was quite mean and dismissive towards me all day. Over dinner she said something about pretending to be nice to me in front of her family on our trip next week. I said let's make our M something we both enjoy for real and be nice for real and not pretend. She dismissed this idea with meaness. I then said that our M can work, and our problem is not the M but the adultery you had with a married man. She appeared in shock that I said this and screamed at me in anger not to bring it up in front of the kids. I have never seen her so angry. Then she seemd totally deflated and sat in front of the tv. She later went to lay down and just lay there. Later she was quiet and the meanness was mostly gone.
What just happened?? How should this have played out correctly? Did I just do a huge lovebuster?
Thanks PrayIncessantly for the feedback and apologies for the late response but I have been away on that trip I mentioned with my family. I do know her top ENs from November when we did the EN questionnaires together, and this morning was thinking the same thing - just pile on the ENS and try to build the LB deposits. They are:
1. Honesty & Openess (ironically...) 2. SF 3. Conversation 4. Rec companionship 5. Family committment
Ideas on how to meet the top 2? We were having frequent SF in Jan-Feb until 15 Feb but not any longer. #3 is also a challenge right now (thanks reading for your idea).
Last night she tells me she will stay living with me because of the kids, but our M is over (and more of the usual WW script about M being over a long time, don't/can't love you, don't want to try right now, etc.). I countered with let's make our M something great with MB, etc.
I think maybe that the D-Day 6 month mark is what has set her off and she has put walls up to fight for this dying fantasy. I even think perhaps she was thinking of moving to her mom's, but I believe this idea was squashed, so it is like we are back at square 1.
All you can do is exactly what you are doing and be happy with what she can give right now, she has chosen to stay and that is the first step. She can't give you what you need until she lets go of the OM and because he has died she is hanging on to that probably out of loyality....thinks she owes him that or something like that....... In that healing process as time goes on you can move past the loss and start to rebuild a life you do want, she can't go forever being in that grief.......but she is obviously not ready to move past it...... All you can do if you can handle it is stay and do what you are doing, I would try to make each day a great day and a memory she can look back on, when she finally starts to let go she will see you and her family in a different light..... Is there one thing you can have in this relationship that can be enough for you to stick it out, if there is enjoy that and try to be patient......... I hope the trip was fun..... I think you can only maybe use some playfulness and joking around to soften her I think enjoying moments is the only way to have her want to come out of the funk she is in....... As far as SF goes that is tough, again her softening the attitude is key......might have to wait for that until she has had time to mourn again...... I would try to do something simple with her like a walk, drive but keep it a weekly thing or daily thing she needs to expect these outings so if you miss one she will miss it too......make it be a part of her life....... when she say she is only staying for the kids for now tell her you would rather have a great marriage but if that is what she wants you can live with that until she has a chance to figure out her emotional well being. But you will continue to love her as her husband it is a choice you are making for your lives....... I feel for you and I wish I could wave a wand and have her wake up and realize he is gone and all the mourning isn't going to bring the fantasy she had with him back and that her real life and opportunity is with you and your children...... I think if you give her enough time she will get to that... I have lost a few times and I can tell you that you live in a fog for a while and I think you just go through the emotions and the tasks of the day but that is all you can muster during that time...... But eventually your own needs and happiness comes back into play and you start to make a better life for yourself and learn to laugh and love again. I so hope that happens for your marriage and I hope it doesn't take that long to happen.........It must be so difficult........
Thanks jessi. I really appreciate your feedback and encouragement. On staying in the M, she struggles with it. As Steve said to me in one call, WW has this cognitive dissonance going on in her mind. I think she and maybe one of her friends talked herself into moving to her mom's after she had this trigger episode last month, and her mom/family talked her out of it during our trip. I think you are right with the loyalty to OM. I can only guess that she sees this past year � her budding EA, depression counseling about feelings, PA, decision to leave, OM death � as being for nothing if she stays in the M. Plus there is the whole contrast effect.
It sometimes reminds me of my youngest when she struggles to get dressed to go to pre-school. She tests me to see if I will be firm and keep going and make her get dressed. In the end some days there is drama but she gets dressed and we go. I try to never react, I only act and remain calm and matter of fact, sometimes I will distract her and play fun games. Other days, she gets ready and goes happily. But she still tests and struggles because she is testing and establishing her independence. My WW�s actions these last months to me are in many ways the same. She keeps testing and struggling, but she struggles less. She is angry because she can�t have her way. I guess it will just take time.
On ENs, thanks for these ideas. Humor helps with her and I try to use it. When she is really mean, I just withdraw and leave her alone. On SF, yes this will take some softening to start-up again. If I got her to soften once, I think I can get us there again. I have always liked the analogy I saw from Steve/Mark about pebbles in the pond and to keep throwing the pebbles because you never can tell when the stones will break the surface.
I will discuss meeting ENs with Steve tomorrow when we have our next call. I am sure he will have some ideas too. He has told me recently to focus heavily on being with the kids since my WW likes when I do that. The intimate ENs I guess will have to wait a bit until her walls start to come down again and she softens.
Had another call with Steve. Basically, he said to keep following the plan, stay on course, avoid LBs of course, and meet ENs as best as she will let me. This will take time, so be proactively patient...
She has changed her tactics and WW is now trying to give me the cold shoulder at home and avoid speaking to me except as necessary. Such a change from one month ago when we were having SF! I continue to try and plan A and avoid all LBs. She has alot of AOs now, but I do not react, only act. I slipped though once last week, first slip in months, but quickly recovered and apologized (raised my voice and slammed door in response to her slamming door in my face).
Our exchange this afternoon: WW: i want to minimize conversations with you unless it concerns our separation. I am sorry. If we continue to live under one roof I have a requirement - you leave me alone. otherwise I am always ready to discuss separation. we live under one roof - we stay away from each other, otherwise i wont be able to continue this, I am sorry.
Me: WW, i hope we can avoid making our situation more challenging. our kids like to see us spending time together. we take one day at a time.
Me: I hope we can make again our living together enjoyable instead of unpleasant, more like one month ago, when we were interacting with each other with more care. I realize we are in a tough place right now, I just think it would be easier to navigate through this place by showing care for each other, if for nothing else as the parents of our two kids. anyway, have fun walking. if you change your mind about me joining you guys, just let me know.
We then later talked by phone and she very angrily says she does not believe these changes in me, especially my focus on our kids all the time. She was screaming at me, but I answered calmly, then she calmed down and we said bye.
How should I respond to this cold shouldering? Just go about my business cheerily and keep inviting her all the time to things? This is what I did last fall and it slowly, slowly worked.
She has changed her tactics and WW is now trying to give me the cold shoulder at home and avoid speaking to me except as necessary. Such a change from one month ago when we were having SF! I continue to try and plan A and avoid all LBs. She has alot of AOs now, but I do not react, only act. I slipped though once last week, first slip in months, but quickly recovered and apologized (raised my voice and slammed door in response to her slamming door in my face).
Our exchange this afternoon: WW: i want to minimize conversations with you unless it concerns our separation. I am sorry. If we continue to live under one roof I have a requirement - you leave me alone. otherwise I am always ready to discuss separation. we live under one roof - we stay away from each other, otherwise i wont be able to continue this, I am sorry.
Me: WW, i hope we can avoid making our situation more challenging. our kids like to see us spending time together. we take one day at a time.
Me: I hope we can make again our living together enjoyable instead of unpleasant, more like one month ago, when we were interacting with each other with more care. I realize we are in a tough place right now, I just think it would be easier to navigate through this place by showing care for each other, if for nothing else as the parents of our two kids. anyway, have fun walking. if you change your mind about me joining you guys, just let me know.
We then later talked by phone and she very angrily says she does not believe these changes in me, especially my focus on our kids all the time. She was screaming at me, but I answered calmly, then she calmed down and we said bye.
How should I respond to this cold shouldering? Just go about my business cheerily and keep inviting her all the time to things? This is what I did last fall and it slowly, slowly worked.
Originally Posted by Blackhawk
Had another call with Steve. Basically, he said to keep following the plan, stay on course, avoid LBs of course, and meet ENs as best as she will let me. This will take time, so be proactively patient...
You know the answer.
As Steve said keep plan A'ing.
Your WW has not defogged and does not want to believe the changes she is seeing in you. This is the reason to keep plan A'ing so WW see's that these changes are permanent.
Blackhawk, the main drivers for my FWW in regaining her attraction and committment to the marriage was multiple factors.
However, early on, I tended to be overly needy. This was a HUGE attraction killer. Once I started acting more independent (meaning focusing on myself and MY standards to stay in the marriage), things drastically changed.
From an outsider looking in and not knowing all the factors that got you where you are, is there a chance you are not holding HER accountable for her actions and participation in the recovery?
Respect and attraction are typically directly related to a man's confidence level in himself. Also, I have learned not to be sucked into her emotions/drama. I help when she asks for help but just listen otherwise....then go make myself a sandwich!
I cringed a couple of times reading your thread and it crossed my mind if you are still checking up on her actions. I would hate to think another person has entered into your equation again.
First, you can only meet her needs if she lets you meet her needs. Leading by example allowed me to break through to my FWW.
I had moment of weakness 8 years ago at a music festival where a woman kissed me and I kissed her back. Nothing else happend but it weighed on me for years. I confessed this to my FWW months ago. My goal was to Lead By Example and not ask for anything more than I was willing to give.
I shared the story and we discussed again all of our EP's which included rules for both of us.
I meant to write this to you a few days ago, but I suspect your WW was triggered by Valentines day and some joyful memory of OM.
I don't know what to do about that aspect of affairs, my W has never turned on OM2 as she finds him faultless. W has never even admitted to much fault herself. Just a week or two ago she mentioned some charming detail about OM2s lifestyle, one that I never heard before, this is after 20+ years. She just doesn't get it.
The next time that your WW speaks about separation, you say, "I refuse to speak about separation in any way, I will only speak to you about marital recovery, would you like some tea?" You don't actually have to give her any tea, but you want to move the subject on.
When she is having her AO's think of her as a small child that is throwing a temper tantrum, because that is exactly what waywards are like. Don't worry about it. Let it pass. Don't engage her. And if she becomes disrespectful or abusive, let her know that one of your boundaries is not to allow anyone to speak to you in such a manner, and WALK AWAY. If you feel like YOU are about to blow, DISENGAGE.
I agree with Scotland, I think it's probably what you are doing anyway......time, time, time. ..... Just look at this way right now you are just helping her heal from herself and her mistakes, that is a rollercoaster for her as well........ Stay buckeled in and just try to enjoy parts of the ride for now, the giving and loving part.........she will have to believe in the changes at some point, everything will lead her there......
She has changed her tactics and WW is now trying to give me the cold shoulder at home and avoid speaking to me except as necessary. Such a change from one month ago when we were having SF! I continue to try and plan A and avoid all LBs. She has alot of AOs now, but I do not react, only act. I slipped though once last week, first slip in months, but quickly recovered and apologized (raised my voice and slammed door in response to her slamming door in my face).
Our exchange this afternoon: WW: i want to minimize conversations with you unless it concerns our separation. I am sorry. If we continue to live under one roof I have a requirement - you leave me alone. otherwise I am always ready to discuss separation. we live under one roof - we stay away from each other, otherwise i wont be able to continue this, I am sorry.
Me: WW, i hope we can avoid making our situation more challenging. our kids like to see us spending time together. we take one day at a time.
Me: I hope we can make again our living together enjoyable instead of unpleasant, more like one month ago, when we were interacting with each other with more care. I realize we are in a tough place right now, I just think it would be easier to navigate through this place by showing care for each other, if for nothing else as the parents of our two kids. anyway, have fun walking. if you change your mind about me joining you guys, just let me know.
We then later talked by phone and she very angrily says she does not believe these changes in me, especially my focus on our kids all the time. She was screaming at me, but I answered calmly, then she calmed down and we said bye.
How should I respond to this cold shouldering? Just go about my business cheerily and keep inviting her all the time to things? This is what I did last fall and it slowly, slowly worked.
Originally Posted by Blackhawk
Had another call with Steve. Basically, he said to keep following the plan, stay on course, avoid LBs of course, and meet ENs as best as she will let me. This will take time, so be proactively patient...
You know the answer.
As Steve said keep plan A'ing.
Your WW has not defogged and does not want to believe the changes she is seeing in you. This is the reason to keep plan A'ing so WW see's that these changes are permanent.
TheRoad, yes I guess I do know the answer, you're right. There are no shortcuts, just keep working the plan, stay on course...
I have not read your thread completely but i will.
But from the stuff ive read id say life is too short.
This comes from a guy with a fww who is beyond remorseful so take LITS for what its worth.
I think this program among many possible outcomes lets you know when to cut bait and move on.
Thanks MikeStillSmiling for responding to my thread. For now I am continuing my plan A. I still have a lot of fight left in me, and I'm patient. I will continue to do my best and see where MB and Steve and the vets here can take me.
Blackhawk, the main drivers for my FWW in regaining her attraction and committment to the marriage was multiple factors.
However, early on, I tended to be overly needy. This was a HUGE attraction killer. Once I started acting more independent (meaning focusing on myself and MY standards to stay in the marriage), things drastically changed.
From an outsider looking in and not knowing all the factors that got you where you are, is there a chance you are not holding HER accountable for her actions and participation in the recovery?
Respect and attraction are typically directly related to a man's confidence level in himself. Also, I have learned not to be sucked into her emotions/drama. I help when she asks for help but just listen otherwise....then go make myself a sandwich!
I cringed a couple of times reading your thread and it crossed my mind if you are still checking up on her actions. I would hate to think another person has entered into your equation again.
20YearHistory, I appreciate your attention to my situation. I think that sometimes the appearing needy thing has been an issue, but more after this last pullback. I was like a starving man that started to eat again, and then again it was taken away (translation: I began to have expectations). I am re-anchored now and back on track. I appreciate your comments on acting independent which I interpret as focusing on improving myself for myself and for my kids, and also in avoiding her drama. I have to keep reminding myself this and to act, not react.
On checking up on her actions, I have done some work on this the last month since the pullback, and continue to do so as opportunities allow. Let's say I am 75% sure there is not a new OM, but that 25% remains uncertain only because I do not have full access. Another person entering the equation is a worry of course, at least in theory. I will keep checking to the best of my ability as standard procedure.
First, you can only meet her needs if she lets you meet her needs. Leading by example allowed me to break through to my FWW.
I had moment of weakness 8 years ago at a music festival where a woman kissed me and I kissed her back. Nothing else happend but it weighed on me for years. I confessed this to my FWW months ago. My goal was to Lead By Example and not ask for anything more than I was willing to give.
I shared the story and we discussed again all of our EP's which included rules for both of us.
Leading by example I guess could be thought of as plan A/ing without expectations, right? The tough part right now is getting through those walls and her allowing me to meet those intimate ENs again, as you noted. I will keep chipping away...
I meant to write this to you a few days ago, but I suspect your WW was triggered by Valentines day and some joyful memory of OM.
I don't know what to do about that aspect of affairs, my W has never turned on OM2 as she finds him faultless. W has never even admitted to much fault herself. Just a week or two ago she mentioned some charming detail about OM2s lifestyle, one that I never heard before, this is after 20+ years. She just doesn't get it.
God Bless Gamma
Thanks Gamma for your reply. This was my thinking also, but of course lots of things went through my head as to the cause of her walls going back up this last month. But like you wrote, this seems to make sense, especially since their EA was gathering momentum this time last year. It is that dang contrast effect again.
This memorializing of the OM and WWs feelings for him is something I do not know how to combat, except to just keep chipping away through plan A.
The next time that your WW speaks about separation, you say, "I refuse to speak about separation in any way, I will only speak to you about marital recovery, would you like some tea?" You don't actually have to give her any tea, but you want to move the subject on.
When she is having her AO's think of her as a small child that is throwing a temper tantrum, because that is exactly what waywards are like. Don't worry about it. Let it pass. Don't engage her. And if she becomes disrespectful or abusive, let her know that one of your boundaries is not to allow anyone to speak to you in such a manner, and WALK AWAY. If you feel like YOU are about to blow, DISENGAGE.
Keep PLan Aing.
Scotland, thanks for taking the time to read and respond to my thread. And thanks for the approach on seperation talk. I almost feel like she was testing me by bringing it up.
On AOs, I have thought the same thing, i.e. her tantrums are similar to our children's tantrums. Tonight twice I remembered what you wrote and when she tried to start something like that I just went upstairs and came back later. Our interactions were so much more pleasant afterwards since I did not engage. She vented and it passed.
I agree with Scotland, I think it's probably what you are doing anyway......time, time, time. ..... Just look at this way right now you are just helping her heal from herself and her mistakes, that is a rollercoaster for her as well........ Stay buckeled in and just try to enjoy parts of the ride for now, the giving and loving part.........she will have to believe in the changes at some point, everything will lead her there......
Thanks jessi. I like how you put it, me helping her heal herself from her own mistakes. That makes sense.
It is very much a marathon. I have to remember to keep pacing myself. One day at a time.
Tomorrow night WW and I are going to a concert by ourselves without the kids. She bought the tickets for us back in early February when things were much better. I was not sure she would still want to go given the last couple of weeks, but she reminded me today that tomorrow night is the concert so come home early from work to eat, etc. It should be a fun night
Do you have any time to maybe buy a new shirt before the concert?
Plan A involves a lot of things you do while courting. So, you want to look, and smell your best. Also, you would be on your best behaviour. Channel your James Bond.
Do you have any time to maybe buy a new shirt before the concert?
Plan A involves a lot of things you do while courting. So, you want to look, and smell your best. Also, you would be on your best behaviour. Channel your James Bond.
Thanks Scotland. Concert was great, and I plan A'ed to WW all evening w/o expectations. She spewed some fog babble during the evening a couple of times and she did her best to be as unpleasant as possible like a sulking child. But we both enjoyed the concert tremendously (together) and the walk home from the baby sitter with our kids was nice.
These last few weeks it is like she is purposefullly doing her utmost to get me to engage in LBs or to surrendor and seperate. She is hateful and angry towards me pretty much all the time. I guess hateful is better than ambivalent.
Do you have any time to maybe buy a new shirt before the concert?
Plan A involves a lot of things you do while courting. So, you want to look, and smell your best. Also, you would be on your best behaviour. Channel your James Bond.
Thanks Scotland. Concert was great, and I plan A'ed to WW all evening w/o expectations. She spewed some fog babble during the evening a couple of times and she did her best to be as unpleasant as possible like a sulking child. But we both enjoyed the concert tremendously (together) and the walk home from the baby sitter with our kids was nice.
These last few weeks it is like she is purposefullly doing her utmost to get me to engage in LBs or to surrendor and seperate. She is hateful and angry towards me pretty much all the time. I guess hateful is better than ambivalent.
Well ok, maybe not ALL the time she is hateful/angry at me, but 75% of the time It is a tough road right now.
I just figured something out that may explain the walls up around V-Day. She was talking to a female friend by Skype video, and I did not know this person, but remember seeing pics of this person and some young 12 year old girl on my WW's screen saver up until our month long trip to the US for the holidays. I asked who this was and she refused to answer, so eventually I let it drop. After the holiday trip she replaced all these pics with our old family pics and trip pics, relieving me greatly, especially together with the return of SF together.
Well, I have stepped up my snooping recently in response to this pulback last month and I have figured out that this person is a former lover of the dead OM and that the other pic is of their child. Apparently this happened during or right after his first marriage ended. It seems my WW became good friends with this person before/after the OM death and they had a long chat after V-Day I guess commiserating, etc. Good lord, I am in shock that WW was looking at this every day on her screen saver until December. No wonder we were strugging so much last fall, she was reminded of the OM every 5 minutes all day!
Thos screen saver pics were like one of those fog machines just pumping out the fog I guess. At least those pics are gone, but I guess that video call again around V-day with the that woman set us back a great deal. I can only imagine all the memories it dredged up. They probably memorialized him. AAGGHHH!
I meant to write this to you a few days ago, but I suspect your WW was triggered by Valentines day and some joyful memory of OM.
I don't know what to do about that aspect of affairs, my W has never turned on OM2 as she finds him faultless. W has never even admitted to much fault herself. Just a week or two ago she mentioned some charming detail about OM2s lifestyle, one that I never heard before, this is after 20+ years. She just doesn't get it.
God Bless Gamma
From this latest revelation Gamma, I think you are right.
WW: (1/2 jokingly, smiling, making small-talk) I don't worry that you'll be able to find a new wife, everyone is interested in meeting you.
Me: (matter-of-fact) WW, I have a wife already. I still hope we can use the MB plan to make our marriage better.
WW: (screaming angrily, like a fuse snapped) "Never say this again! Never bring this up again in front of kids! Never bring up again or you will end up in front of a judge in court with me!"
Me: (calmly) I was only saying that I think we can make our marriage better using Steve and MB.
WW: (still screaming) Never say it again! Stop! Or it will be court! Is that what you want"
At this point I left the room and when I came back in a couple of minutes later she was acting ok again. Steve has told me to hit and run with presenting the truth/MB to her, but her anger this time surprised me a bit.
How could I have done this better? Should I just ignore these comments?
Wow, I'll have to think about that one, how much exposure did you give your children and how do they now view/treat your WW?
God Bless Gamma
Gamma,
The kids have not been exposed. They treat/view her as their mom. But of course they understood something was going on last fall.
As an update, about an hour after this conversation, we all had lunch and she apologized to me
WW: "I am sorry for what I said. I started it by what I said."
Me: "What do you mean?"
WW: "Just that I started it, that was my fault, you didn't do anything to cause that conflict."
Me: "Thanks for apologizing and being honest with me about how you feel."
Afterwards we had a nice lunch all together, she was friendly and we talked about her vegetarianism, I mentioned i admired her ethically for it (it is new for her, last month), and asked if it it was a spiritual decision, ethical or what. She said she just decided but then proceeded to talk about it awhile. I think I was able to make a LB deposit.
Later I left to take the kids to a play, and she called me as I was leaving by a term of endearment I have not heard since before the pullback in mid-February. Tonight was drifting back towards "friendly" neutral again.
Tomorrow she suggested we all go with friends to a movie, with the kids.
She also suggested we (me and her) go shopping for together next week. Last time we did this we had a great time.
These are little things, but seem significant to me. At our mid-week concert she could barely stand to be next to me and was refusing to talk with me. As of last night and today we are interacting more positively (but not all the time, tonight she bit my head off when asking about one of her family members).
Thanks for your attention to my thread. I realize it is recommended. I decided they were too young. I realize my son is borderline age. My DD was barely talking last fall (she was 2 then).
I think you're doing a fantastic Plan A and that shows by her being in the state of conflict, which is better than withdrawl.
You are doing good on cleaning up your side of the street. Can you schedule dome UA time without the kids?
Do you still travel with your job?
Thanks BrainHurts. What would she be doing in withdrawal state versus conflict state? I sometimes am unsure. Fighting and trying to engage in fighting (conflict) versus total avoidance (withdrawal)?
On UAT, before her walls went back up in mid-February we were doing better, but she has tried to avoid UAT the last couple of weeks. I make an effort to be around home when kids are out a couple of times a week, keep asking her to lunch, etc. She has been turning things down, but I keep asking. This concert last week I guess, and shopping next week would be a breakthrough (and her idea). It is hard right now with her being so resistant to spending alone time with me. We get a lot of time together with the kids. I will keep trying. Ideas are welcome
On my job, I used to travel about 25-35%, now I travel much less, maybe twice a quarter. We have not been apart overnight in 3 months. I have a 10 day trip next month unfortunately to a different country.
I think you're doing a fantastic Plan A and that shows by her being in the state of conflict, which is better than withdrawl.
You are doing good on cleaning up your side of the street. Can you schedule dome UA time without the kids?
Do you still travel with your job?
Thanks BrainHurts. What would she be doing in withdrawal state versus conflict state? I sometimes am unsure. Fighting and trying to engage in fighting (conflict) versus total avoidance (withdrawal)?
On UAT, before her walls went back up in mid-February we were doing better, but she has tried to avoid UAT the last couple of weeks. I make an effort to be around home when kids are out a couple of times a week, keep asking her to lunch, etc. She has been turning things down, but I keep asking. This concert last week I guess, and shopping next week would be a breakthrough (and her idea). It is hard right now with her being so resistant to spending alone time with me. We get a lot of time together with the kids. I will keep trying. Ideas are welcome
On my job, I used to travel about 25-35%, now I travel much less, maybe twice a quarter. We have not been apart overnight in 3 months. I have a 10 day trip next month unfortunately to a different country.
Wow, wow BlackHawk. I went back and read your entire thread and have to commend your Plan A ability and your patience of not letting your "Taker" take over. I know you are in Plan A, but what do you do when she spills vomit all over you with her "I hate you comments and we will only be together until the kids leave"? Do you tell her "I don't like it when... and then exit the room?
I think posters are concerned that you may become a doormat.
I also see that a few posters have recommended Plan B, but I agree with you that you need to follow Steve Harley's advice. Can she go with you when you travel out of town next month?
I see you are coaching with Steve Harley and that is awesome. When is your next session with him? Is there anyway he can "persuade" your wife to get another session with him again?
I know you've been snooping again, but can you up your tactics? Do you have a keylogger put on her computer?
To me it seems like your wife is in the state of conflict and wants to cause a fight? I know she is still in the wayward mindset, but it sounds like she may be "talking" with someone else? I mean a 6 month from the time that the OM died and she still doesn't want to commit to the marriage? A red flag if you ask me.
You have also read the links by Dr. Harley on the 3 states of Mind in Marriage?
Yes, I leave the room and tell her I don't like it. I still use an approach Steve gave me and remind her I want our marriage to be something we both enjoy and something new and better than it was, depending on what she says, and that when we were both working the plan with Steve we were interacting better and were happier. But she has not done this so strongly (the vomit :)) in a couple of weeks. For example, just now we had a nice day with the kids and we started conversing again after a cold week. But at dinner just now she got very angry and yelled at me in front of the kids, so a backslide. I told her I don't like her doing that, very calmly, and asked her to stop. She continued and l left the room. I came back later and she said "I thought we could start talking again, but see what happens." I just ignored this. She is now being short with me again, but not as bad as before, and some friendliness now an hour later. I think I am making progress and setting boundries on yelling in front of the kids is worth the potential step back.
On leaving town together, the kids make this very, very difficult, and I do not think she will agree to go with me regardless. I will ask her though anyway. Thanks for the idea.
On coaching, I speak with Steve tomorrow. We're working on getting her to speak again, but she has not agreed as of yet. Will keep trying. I talk with Steve every 2 weeks or so.
On snooping, no keylogger. She put a password on her computer a few weeks ago and I can't figure out how to get around it (yet). This is a big hole I know but I will keep trying if for nothing but my own peace of mind. My snooping is pretty good otherwise, but have found nothing.
On state of mind, yes, I think we were starting to drop periodically into intimacy, then around Valentine's day she went into conflict and then into withdrawal. Now I feel like she is moving back into conflict, especially the last couple of days. On a new OM, I of course worry about this, frankly alot, although I have no proof, so I have not confronted her. She added a password to her computer a few weeks ago too, hence the keylogger problem. But the kids were on it too messing around and it made her mad so it could have been because of that. It is unclear, and yes a red flag to me too. I discussed with Steve and he said it could be either an OM or something switched in her brain with the dead previous OM, some memory or something (like what Gamma suggested) related to Valentine's day. Also, I am fully confident there was no 2nd OM before February.
On the states of mind in marriage, yes, and today I reviewed again the 3 states or mind in marriage in Love Busters (so I sort of answered my own question on typical behaviors in each state!).
On exposing to kids, Steve advised not to do this in my specific situation.
He agreed we were oscillating between intimacy and conflict in Dec-Feb. She slid into conflict and back to the state of withdrawal in late February. Now, my presence/plan A/demonstration of changes is bringing her back to the state of conflict regularly (like you noted), so he advised to keep chipping away, and be ready to keep going for an unknown distance because mine is an unusual situation with the OM death (i.e. this is a marathon, sprinting is hurtful and to be avoided).
I am to keep taking opportunites as they present themselves to respectfully persuade her working on the M with Steve/MB is the best thing for her happiness, etc. Keep snooping too to rule out another OM. On this he did not rule it out, but he leans toward it being her being ruled by her emotions, with them being especially strong because of the OM death.
On exposing to kids, Steve advised not to do this in my specific situation.
He agreed we were oscillating between intimacy and conflict in Dec-Feb. She slid into conflict and back to the state of withdrawal in late February. Now, my presence/plan A/demonstration of changes is bringing her back to the state of conflict regularly (like you noted), so he advised to keep chipping away, and be ready to keep going for an unknown distance because mine is an unusual situation with the OM death (i.e. this is a marathon, sprinting is hurtful and to be avoided).
I am to keep taking opportunites as they present themselves to respectfully persuade her working on the M with Steve/MB is the best thing for her happiness, etc. Keep snooping too to rule out another OM. On this he did not rule it out, but he leans toward it being her being ruled by her emotions, with them being especially strong because of the OM death.
Good BlackHawk I'm so glad you're able to coach with Steve H, and thanks for the update.
It seems like your lovebank is doing well? I mean it seems like yours is full for her. You remind me of John and Sue and how well John did with Sue.
I think you would be an inspiration for many BH here.
Have you ever looked in on INTERAL_PAIN's thread in recovery? He struggles with the SF with his WW.
So are you still taking care of yourself in your wonderful Plan A? Do you two workout together?
I just heard on the radio show Dr. H tell a BW she should go workout with her WH because they go to seperate gyms.
Lovebank-wise I am in an ok place. When we were drifting back towards intimacy in Dec-Feb that helped refill me, as did the frequent SF during that time. Of course that makes riding the roller coaster back down frustrating. But it is a marathon and I am committed to the long-haul. My kids help motivate me too, and perhaps that is my biggest motivation.
Working with Steve has helped guide me through these minefields and know what to expect and how to react, I guess much like John did in SAA working directly with Dr. Harley. I find these boards so useful as well of course, and regular reading and re-reading of the web materials and the books.
I read INTERNAL_PAIN's thread today, by the way. It reminded me again about how long this stuff takes. I guess the hardest part is having this proactive patience. I know I want to rush things, and think why doesn't she see this like I do? But as DoormatNoMore wrote, it usually takes more time to win WWs back.
I am doing a decent job of taking care of myself physically. I am at my college weight, but more toned and muscular than anytime in my life with these daily work-outs . I make sure to sleep and eat well and don't really drink that much anymore, except for the occasional beer or when sharing a bottle of wine with WW (found myself too emotional too easily when drinking early on in this). As for WW, she is into yoga off and on but she does not work out regularly. It is a really great idea though and I will try to see if I can interest her.
My thing right now is in increasing our UAT, even though she does not want much UAT the last couple of weeks. That, and focusing my time on our kids when WW and I are together. We have some things planned this week and frankly was surprised she agreed.
We're not in recovery. And I would not say we are doing so well at the moment, as she is not committed to the marriage. Instead, I would say that we were doing well Dec-Feb in moving towards recovery, and now I am doing as well as I can by continuing to work the plan with Steve's help.
Things were moving towards recovery in Dec-Feb, especially when we were both working with Steve. In fact, I even considered moving to the Recovery forum, good grief! But with this backslide in mid February her walls are up and she is hostile towards me the last few weeks and hostile towards working on the marriage in any way, shape or form. But step by step I am chipping away at the walls, and I see that as that happens day by day, then her hostility slowly reduces. It just takes time I guess, and the other situations I read about on here seem to support this: time, time, time.
We are living together throughout all this and that is tremendously important in my opinion, as it gives time for daily interaction, with or without UAT, and let's her see my demonstration of change regardless.
Recreationally, being outside with the kids, shopping, walks. Again,this was going well 6 weeks ago before her walls came back up. Now not so much, but we are supposed to go shopping together today, but had a lot of drama this morning where she lost her wallet, so not sure we will go.
My WW is guided by her feelings, as a person. Further, she does not believe in the changes in me yet that she sees, and thus she is guarded in her feelings towards me. She started to let her guard down (walls down) in Dec-Feb and it became apparent to me that her feelings were slowly, slowly changing again. That was when we began to periodically return to the state of mind of intimacy. But then in mid-Feb, for whatever reason, she pulled away again, maybe she felt we were becoming too intimate and she put her walls back up for protection. So that is where we are now, back in the withdrawal-conflict stae of mind zone.
When they say this is a roller coaster, they are not kidding! So it is important to understand these steps back will happen as feelings oscillate day to day and week to week and month to month. It is important I think to not let these peaks and valleys cause a BS to lose hope and for the BS to keep working the plans regardless. It is truly a marathon.
Anyway,this is how I see my situation from my reading and working with Steve. Just keeping working the plans and chipping away at her walls.
That is great, stuff for the home. Maybe you could suggest a little change in the home, a project you two could do together, shop for, lots of opportunity to spend time ask for opinions and have fun with. Can you think of something she wants to change a new garden? Time equals closeness. Let her control the design Kids bedrooms? Even if she says no at first start without her she will follow
That is great, stuff for the home. Maybe you could suggest a little change in the home, a project you two could do together, shop for, lots of opportunity to spend time ask for opinions and have fun with. Can you think of something she wants to change a new garden? Time equals closeness. Let her control the design Kids bedrooms? Even if she says no at first start without her she will follow
Thanks jessi for the ideas. She has been talking about curtains and changing the kitchen furniture so maybe these are a start.
We had a good day Wednesday, but then Thursday back to her being short-tempered and critical towards me again, for the most part. These yo-yos in behavior are frustrating. Its like she starts to let her guard down with me, we become comfortable together, incidental touching, talking, but then the next morning its like it never happened and back to the guardedness and short-temper.
Maybe you could suggest a little change in the home, a project you two could do together, shop for, lots of opportunity to spend time ask for opinions and have fun with.
Good suggestion jessi! My H & I did this. We built a fish pond & waterfall in our backyard. It took lots of planning, designing, shopping and working together but it was worth it. Then choosing our fish & plants. Sitting back, admiring our finished project, watching the fish and waterfall was so relaxing and rewarding.
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These yo-yos in behavior are frustrating.
That's why they call this a "rollercoaster ride" You just gotta hang on tight! You're doing a great job! Keep it up!
If you feel your W is reading your thread, notify the moderators by clicking on the notify link on the bottom of your post. Let them know the reason for your concerns and ask if they have any suggestions, solutions or advice. Yes, it might be damaging to your efforts.
Thanks Nerlycrzy for your comments. It is a rollercoaster and then some!
The last few days she is back to giving me the cold shoulder and doing her best to ignore me most of the time, e.g. if I ask her a question she just pretends not to hear unless I repeat the question 3 times. Or if I start a conversation, she will try to avoid it or leave the room. It is quite childish. Should I just give her space and go about my business?
Thanks Nerlycrzy for your comments. It is a rollercoaster and then some!
The last few days she is back to giving me the cold shoulder and doing her best to ignore me most of the time, e.g. if I ask her a question she just pretends not to hear unless I repeat the question 3 times. Or if I start a conversation, she will try to avoid it or leave the room. It is quite childish. Should I just give her space and go about my business?
When she does this do you let her know?
"It hurts me when you ignore me and walk out of the room". If you do what does she say?
Question: if WW was secretly reading this thread, could that be damaging to our situation?
There are many marriages that recover even when BOTH spouses know about MB.
Have you told her about MB? Do you think she checks your history? Why do you think that she's reading your thread?
She may know things that you will do and won't do beforehand, but that doesn't hurt your chances at recovery. There are times when I wished that my WH would know about MB, then he would know that it IS possible to recover from adultery. I won't go out and tell him though. This place is my safety net.
Thanks Nerlycrzy for your comments. It is a rollercoaster and then some!
The last few days she is back to giving me the cold shoulder and doing her best to ignore me most of the time, e.g. if I ask her a question she just pretends not to hear unless I repeat the question 3 times. Or if I start a conversation, she will try to avoid it or leave the room. It is quite childish. Should I just give her space and go about my business?
What does Steve tell you to do when she does this?
Question: if WW was secretly reading this thread, could that be damaging to our situation?
There are many marriages that recover even when BOTH spouses know about MB.
Have you told her about MB? Do you think she checks your history? Why do you think that she's reading your thread?
She may know things that you will do and won't do beforehand, but that doesn't hurt your chances at recovery. There are times when I wished that my WH would know about MB, then he would know that it IS possible to recover from adultery. I won't go out and tell him though. This place is my safety net.
Scotland, it was mainly intuition based on her reactions to my actions. It could just be my paranoia though. I am not the most trusting person anymore with her I have no proof she is reading my thread. I have no proof of anything.
She knows about MB and we had joint sessions with Steve from the end of November through the middle of January, then she refused to continue with Steve, although I have of course. We did all the questionnaires in November. She has not really read alot though on the site though.
The last week has continued to be crappy mostly. Today I again brought up working with Steve and turning our marriage into something we both enjoy. She says she just does not want to, does not feel like it, and that she has done what I wanted our entire marriage and now she won't. She tells me she is staying only because she does not want to take the kids out of my life (she has said this for a few months off and on) and although living together we need to live seperate lives. Then she started to list a litany of ways I failed her in our marriage and that we are just too different.
I responded with my script from Steve and stayed on message without DJs. At the end I just changed the subject and we then had lunch with the kids and her mom. I worry that I may be bringing up working with Steve too often and she is feeling too much pressure from me.
Thanks Nerlycrzy for your comments. It is a rollercoaster and then some!
The last few days she is back to giving me the cold shoulder and doing her best to ignore me most of the time, e.g. if I ask her a question she just pretends not to hear unless I repeat the question 3 times. Or if I start a conversation, she will try to avoid it or leave the room. It is quite childish. Should I just give her space and go about my business?
What does Steve tell you to do when she does this?
Brainhurts,
I've got a call with him tomorrow, and will ask his advice. This is sort of a new tactic from her. Steve usually just tells me to stay anchored and don't react to what she throws at me, let it roll off my back and just keep on plan. And be ready for a long plan A unfortunately...
Steve advised to address her disrespect by asking her what she is trying to achieve, and then using that as a hook back to the original idea: creating a M we both enjoy, being in love again is better than seperation or a D.
He advised not to dismiss it, as that could give her sense it is ok and acceptable.
Steve advised to address her disrespect by asking her what she is trying to achieve, and then using that as a hook back to the original idea: creating a M we both enjoy, being in love again is better than seperation or a D.
He advised not to dismiss it, as that could give her sense it is ok and acceptable.
Thanks BlackHawk for the feedback from Steve. I learn so much from his coaching to you.
So I'm not hijacking anyone else's thread, you're welcome! When you feel up to it, let me know. There is SOOOOOO much more that you can do if you're willing to learn, which you seem to be.
Steve advised to address her disrespect by asking her what she is trying to achieve, and then using that as a hook back to the original idea: creating a M we both enjoy, being in love again is better than seperation or a D.
He advised not to dismiss it, as that could give her sense it is ok and acceptable.
Thanks BlackHawk for the feedback from Steve. I learn so much from his coaching to you.
Do you know how you will address this with her?
Well, she gave me an opportunity to try yesterday, and I basically just asked her what is she trying to do by being mean, she said I told you what I want, and I said do you think a D or seperation or seperate lives while living together would be better than a happy repationship or being in-love? She did not answer snd just got angry so I retreated.
Steve has a lot of hooks he can give, but the main thing is to make sure the discussion always turns into that question above. She will kick and scream, but stay matter of fact and w/o emotion. That is sometimes difficult, as is maintaining no expectations
She is struggling and contrasting her feelings for me now and in her fog memories of what we had pre-affair versus what she had with dead OM last year. Steve says things are getting through. I am opposing her and representing an idea opposite of what she right now believes she wants. She will struggle like this until she becomes more of a believer, I guess like where we were earlier this year. I also need to work on getting her to open up her concerns with the entire approach, apparently she got off track with the basic premise, which is being in love with father of kids is the ideal scenario for her happiness.
So I'm not hijacking anyone else's thread, you're welcome! When you feel up to it, let me know. There is SOOOOOO much more that you can do if you're willing to learn, which you seem to be.
Thanks AJoseJake. Let me play with this some and then let's talk again. Thanks for the advice!
Steve advised to address her disrespect by asking her what she is trying to achieve, and then using that as a hook back to the original idea: creating a M we both enjoy, being in love again is better than seperation or a D.
He advised not to dismiss it, as that could give her sense it is ok and acceptable.
Thanks BlackHawk for the feedback from Steve. I learn so much from his coaching to you.
Do you know how you will address this with her?
Well, she gave me an opportunity to try yesterday, and I basically just asked her what is she trying to do by being mean, she said I told you what I want, and I said do you think a D or seperation or seperate lives while living together would be better than a happy repationship or being in-love? She did not answer snd just got angry so I retreated.
Steve has a lot of hooks he can give, but the main thing is to make sure the discussion always turns into that question above. She will kick and scream, but stay matter of fact and w/o emotion. That is sometimes difficult, as is maintaining no expectations
She is struggling and contrasting her feelings for me now and in her fog memories of what we had pre-affair versus what she had with dead OM last year. Steve says things are getting through. I am opposing her and representing an idea opposite of what she right now believes she wants. She will struggle like this until she becomes more of a believer, I guess like where we were earlier this year. I also need to work on getting her to open up her concerns with the entire approach, apparently she got off track with the basic premise, which is being in love with father of kids is the ideal scenario for her happiness.
For anyone following my thread, I have not updated in some time since there has been nothing really new to say. We are still living together as a family and I continue to counsel with Steve regularly by myself and to plan A and meet her ENs as much as she will allow. There are good days and then bad days, but the bad days seem fewer now.
For anyone following my thread, I have not updated in some time since there has been nothing really new to say. We are still living together as a family and I continue to counsel with Steve regularly by myself and to plan A and meet her ENs as much as she will allow. There are good days and then bad days, but the bad days seem fewer now.
Thanks for the update BlackHawk. She still isn't talking to Steve?
With less bad days do you think you're on the road to recovery?
I have been wondering how you and your wife are doing. So glad the bad times are fewer, just keep loving her, someday she will really see you again. She is a lucky woman. Jessi
For anyone following my thread, I have not updated in some time since there has been nothing really new to say. We are still living together as a family and I continue to counsel with Steve regularly by myself and to plan A and meet her ENs as much as she will allow. There are good days and then bad days, but the bad days seem fewer now.
Thanks for the update BlackHawk. She still isn't talking to Steve?
With less bad days do you think you're on the road to recovery?
How much UA time are you getting?
BrainHurts,
She is still not willing to speak with Steve, but I keep trying to chip away at that with Steve's guidance. We are not yet on the road to recovery by any means, but our interactions seem to be improving as I plan A better and at a pace she is confortable with. It is hard and slow work and it sucks, but I am at a sustainable pace right now.
On UA time, this is a problem. We get family time all together a couple hours a day and longer on week-ends, but UA time is a lot, lot, lot less. It is hurting us, but she is super resistant. Steve counseled me that exposure and care over time will have an impact, so I keep plugging away.
I have been wondering how you and your wife are doing. So glad the bad times are fewer, just keep loving her, someday she will really see you again. She is a lucky woman. Jessi
Thanks Jessi for your kind words. I continue to follow the plan and chip away at her resistance and meet her ENs as she allows, and I continue to counsel with Steve every couple of weeks. As I wrote above, Steve has counseled me that exposre and time will have an impact, so I keep at it. Patience and perseverance...
UA time is a good question. She is reluctant to do things together without the kids the last few months. I keep suggesting things like shopping and lunch. I come home early from work some days, stay home some days. I will just keep trying.
Nothing new to update really. Continue to counsel seperately with Steve every couple of weeks. We did register DS in first grade this week for September. This is somewhat significant since there was a significant cost to securing the school spot and it means she/we are committed to living in the town where we live for another year (which means together).
We leave for a week to her mom's tomorrow, me, WW, kids. Will check in when we return.
Since we have began calls with Steve, my WW has accepted the idea theoretically that being in love with the father of her biological children (me!) is the ideal situation for her greatest happiness.
This is encouraging to read. This is precisely the same idea Steve wants me to persuade my wife to accept.
Blackhawk, the similarities between our wives and their behaviors is uncanny.
Friends/family supportive of adultery have a value system that isn't comparable to our system ... this gets them more and more entrenched with crossing boundaries ... if a friend even once encourages her WW to lie to her husband ... then you know as time continues the behavior will become more and more lax ... one lie here another lie there ... socializing with male friends here ... emotionally attaching to them there.
Friends/family supportive of adultery do not have proper boundaries in place to protect anyone and it turns into a deceptive and dishonest relationship.
The goal is to surround your WW with people of a higher level value system, so she can climb the ladder and live by those values.
She is still in an active affair if she is constantly triggered. She is likely being triggered on a fantasy that she would like to create. The lovebank of OM is high and until she is NC with anything that will trigger her it will remain high. This is dangerous because she may start to go out and look for another man who can recreate that high again.
It has to be NC for life on everything related to the adultery.
I agree and completely see your logic on this. My questions are:
1) HOW do you surgically remove people (who were supportive of or contributed to the affair) from your WS's life?
2) WHEN do you do this? In my case, I have known all along that certain people in our lives MUST go for our marriage and family to survive. I have been extremely hesitant to communicate this or to enforce my boundaries related to these people for fear that this would be one of the fastest tickets to world war 3 and a certain divorce. At what point do you say "By the way WS, if you want to stay married, our family (and you) will never have any contact with (list of people) ever again?"
1) You cannot remove anyone from your WW's life. She has to be willing to do that herself. If she is serious about recovery and knows those friends/family are toxic to your marriage she will (without hesitation) will remove them (go NC) for life. If she is not serious about recovery, your pain will mean nothing to her.
2) You start today. If you have people in your life who are toxic, then simply sever the relationships. If they ask why, you simply tell them. I do not have friends who lie, cheat (support cheating), and are not morally sound in my life.
Your boundaries will become your strength. The more you remove people who are toxic the better you will feel.
As for your WW ... she has to be ready and willing to dramatically change her lifestyle and it is a very narrow path to recovery. Removing all adultery supporting people (family included) is ESSENTIAL to recovery.
...I think your wife has built up a false image of you. And you have been reinforcing it. Why don't you treat her the way you would treat anyone who disrespects you? And no more of "you're my wife" UNTIL SHE DESERVES IT. As wrong as she is, she believes that you are controlling her. When she is really controlling you.
Wouldn't it be true that all WS's fabricate a false image of their spouse? In my case, my WW's image of me has become hugely distorted. She practically reinvented me to her friends and family to justify her affair and desire to end our marriage.
It seems pretty clear that changing/eliminating/correcting this distorted image is not something that occurs overnight.
The million dollar question is, how do you treat your WS the same way you would treat anyone else who showed you such extreme disrespect? The solution you propose seems to be in conflict with the behaviors that are required to win back the WS.
I'm not disagreeing with your advice on this, I just don't see how one can take an extremely hard line and say, for example, "don't ever show me disrespect that way again" to someone who genuinely has no respect for you as a result of being in a "fog."
1) You cannot remove anyone from your WW's life. She has to be willing to do that herself. If she is serious about recovery and knows those friends/family are toxic to your marriage she will (without hesitation) will remove them (go NC) for life. If she is not serious about recovery, your pain will mean nothing to her.
2) You start today. If you have people in your life who are toxic, then simply sever the relationships. If they ask why, you simply tell them. I do not have friends who lie, cheat (support cheating), and are not morally sound in my life.
Your boundaries will become your strength. The more you remove people who are toxic the better you will feel.
As for your WW ... she has to be ready and willing to dramatically change her lifestyle and it is a very narrow path to recovery. Removing all adultery supporting people (family included) is ESSENTIAL to recovery.
Herein lies the problem. As far as I'm concerned, I have already cut certain people out of my/our life. SHE, on the other hand, would never in a million years (so I predict) do the same with some specific people she considers to be "family."
Just because I would never call or speak to person X ever again doesn't mean that she won't -- unless this is discussed at some point and she agrees to cut this person out of her life.
Wouldn't it be true that all WS's fabricate a false image of their spouse? In my case, my WW's image of me has become hugely distorted. She practically reinvented me to her friends and family to justify her affair and desire to end our marriage.
It seems pretty clear that changing/eliminating/correcting this distorted image is not something that occurs overnight.
Most of this problem is eliminated when the OP is removed from the scene. The demonization of the BS is necessary to justify the affair. When the affair is over, the demonization is no longer necessary.
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The million dollar question is, how do you treat your WS the same way you would treat anyone else who showed you such extreme disrespect? The solution you propose seems to be in conflict with the behaviors that are required to win back the WS.
You are correct, Driven. It is in conflict and is not effective. We don't treat our WS the same as anyone else because they are not anyone else. Doing so would be like shooting ourselves in the foot.
It took me a while, but I have now read your entire thread in detail. First I want to say that I am in awe of your tenacity and perseverance through this. The volatility and AO's you are dealing with are far greater than in my situation. The way you have been able to discipline yourself to NOT react to her every incident is truly inspiring and helps me to believe I can develop the skills to do the same. It's just so hard not to get sucked into the drama when my FWW behaves the way she does.
**edit**
One question I have for you that did not seem to come up in your thread concerns your FWW's overall mental health. Has she ever had issues with depression or anxiety in the past? Has she ever taken antidepressant meds? The reason I ask is that my read on her behavior in general is that she appears to have extreme volatility in her mood from day to day. You may know all of this already, but anxiety and depression are essentially different manifestations of the same underlying chemical imbalances. AO's, agitation, anger, screaming etc.. are one end of the scale whereas withdrawal, hopelessness, "you don't love me" etc.. are the opposite end of the spectrum. My point is that your entire affair recovery scenario may in fact be complicated by a completely separate, independent factor - an anxiety/depression problem.
Again, you may already know all this so I apologize if I'm preaching to the choir on this. There are many different medications but the majority of them work to eliminate a deficiency in the neurotransmitter serotonin. AD's don't eliminate depression or anxiety but significantly reduce the extremes at each end of the spectrum. They work to stabilize moods to be more centered towards the mean.
If she's not taking AD's currently, do you think you could persuade her to try them? If she is adamantly against taking prescription medication, there is an over the counter supplement that is very similar chemically to antidepressants called 5-HTP. It is a precursor to serotonin so it actually becomes serotonin when ingested.
In my case my FWW would definitely benefit from AD's but is adamantly against taking them. And thanks to the worthless, destructive marriage counselor we had who advised her NOT to take medication because it would be used against her in a custody battle, FWW is even more reluctant to do so.
My thoughts are with you. Keep fighting the good fight.
It took me a while, but I have now read your entire thread in detail. First I want to say that I am in awe of your tenacity and perseverance through this. The volatility and AO's you are dealing with are far greater than in my situation. The way you have been able to discipline yourself to NOT react to her every incident is truly inspiring and helps me to believe I can develop the skills to do the same. It's just so hard not to get sucked into the drama when my FWW behaves the way she does.
**edit**
One question I have for you that did not seem to come up in your thread concerns your FWW's overall mental health. Has she ever had issues with depression or anxiety in the past? Has she ever taken antidepressant meds? The reason I ask is that my read on her behavior in general is that she appears to have extreme volatility in her mood from day to day. You may know all of this already, but anxiety and depression are essentially different manifestations of the same underlying chemical imbalances. AO's, agitation, anger, screaming etc.. are one end of the scale whereas withdrawal, hopelessness, "you don't love me" etc.. are the opposite end of the spectrum. My point is that your entire affair recovery scenario may in fact be complicated by a completely separate, independent factor - an anxiety/depression problem.
Again, you may already know all this so I apologize if I'm preaching to the choir on this. There are many different medications but the majority of them work to eliminate a deficiency in the neurotransmitter serotonin. AD's don't eliminate depression or anxiety but significantly reduce the extremes at each end of the spectrum. They work to stabilize moods to be more centered towards the mean.
If she's not taking AD's currently, do you think you could persuade her to try them? If she is adamantly against taking prescription medication, there is an over the counter supplement that is very similar chemically to antidepressants called 5-HTP. It is a precursor to serotonin so it actually becomes serotonin when ingested.
In my case my FWW would definitely benefit from AD's but is adamantly against taking them. And thanks to the worthless, destructive marriage counselor we had who advised her NOT to take medication because it would be used against her in a custody battle, FWW is even more reluctant to do so.
My thoughts are with you. Keep fighting the good fight.
Driven2,
Thanks for your words of encouragement, they mean alot. I read recently a post by Pepperband on plan A where there is a discussion from some Board heavy-hitters about plan A, and I will say that for me plan A has made me a better husband, a much better father, and a better man. If nothing else, I do see the world differently now and I am a better person. I remember a Dr. Harley radio segment where he said he no longer gets angry because he retrained his mind in his youth to not get angry. In my mind, retraining ourselves to remove negative behaviors to make a better marriage possible is alot of what MB is about. Also, counseling with Steve has helped tremendously and is a big reason why I have gotten this far, so I applaud you for working with him.
On anxiety/depression, honestly it is not something I have noticed in her before late 2010 when this all started. She has always had issues with AOs and this has caused some drama, but not depression. In fact, the first time she had noticeable depression was in Spring last year when she started seeing a psychologist after she told me she was having thoughts of suicide. Little did I know that the depression was caused by guilt from her developing EA and that the psychologist was feeding into this, divorced herself, amd todlher to leave me for the OM for her happiness! I will bring this up with Steve though on our next call and let you know what he thinks.
Little did I know that the depression was caused by guilt from her developing EA and that the psychologist was feeding into this, divorced herself, and told her to leave me for the OM for her happiness!
You have done a public service by posting this, it needs to be emphasized that we cannot trust persons in positions of trust without first doing our homework about who they are.
Didn't anyone at my Ws church think something was wrong with a married woman bringing a single man with her to service?
Little did I know that the depression was caused by guilt from her developing EA and that the psychologist was feeding into this, divorced herself, and told her to leave me for the OM for her happiness!
You have done a public service by posting this, it needs to be emphasized that we cannot trust persons in positions of trust without first doing our homework about who they are.
Didn't anyone at my Ws church think something was wrong with a married woman bringing a single man with her to service?
God Bless Gamma
Indeed Gamma, how true what you write about trusting those in authority without learning about them. About this psychologist, she then went on to counsel my WW's friend on her M after WW recommended her, and this friend also was counseled to leave her husband (she did, but they reconciled, no A in the situation to throw things further off kilter)! At the time - this was last Oct/Nov right before we began counseling with Steve - I pointed this out and made a big deal about how this psychologist was a divorce advocate and that she herself was divorced. WW did not like that line of thought of course since it threw in doubt the validity of her decisions. This psychologist even agreed with WW that it seemed OM and WW were meant to be together. Not so apparently! I believe this "counseling" is one of the big reason my WW is still in the fog.
On your WW and the church service, that is unbelievable that no one said anything.
On your WW and the church service, that is unbelievable that no one said anything.
After I put an end to my W taking OM4 to church with her, and my W mentioned my objection to the ladies at the church, the ladies came up with the suggestion of sending one of the men to pick up OM4. Fortunately they never followed through as OM4 was some distance from town.
So they did say something offering to continue bringing OM4 to church, to my knowledge however nobody there saw it as a problem, or that I was going berserk.
I will say that since OM4 was 85 years old they likely saw it as innocent or assumed it could not be physical which I believe is true.
It was also a relatively unsophisticated church from a counseling standpoint, with the pastor having closed door sessions alone with some of the married ladies in troubled marriages.
We are in a kind of limbo. We still live together, interact daily about kids and household stuff, usually have dinner together, do stuff as family often on week-ends, etc. but she rebuffs all attempts at care, affection, etc. She believes divorce is the answer, she can't imagine being in love again with me. I keep avoiding LBs and keep trying to show her care when I can, and I keep trying to put reconnecting with me as a possibility back on the table. She is closed to the idea and extremely resistant, so I keep chipping away as best I can. Ultimately she has to participate for this to work of course.
I also regularly and respectfully keep trying to persuade her to begin again with Steve. She wants nothing to do with that though.
It seems like a waiting game or like a seige, where one tries to persevere and outlast the other one before someone yields.
Steve helps me with tactics and we keep trying to get through her wall. But like I wrote above, ultimately she has to get onboard on her own for this to work and see value in saving our marriage. I can only do my part of it.
Thanks HDW. I do keep punching, but am taking some body blows at the same time. It sucks, but it is what it is. A couple of things keep me motivated, for what it's worth:
1. My 2 kids: I want the best for them and that is 2 loving biological parents that are in love with each other. If that is not possible though, then I want to be able to tell them some day that I fought for their mom, I fought for our marriage and I gave everything I had to make it right for all of us. 2. My WW: I still remember what we had. I miss that person. She is still in there, so I keep chipping away trying to find her. Like with my kids, I want her to know that I fought till the end for her, for our kids and for our marriage. If I persevere and we renew our M, then she will remember this. If we have worst case and the M ends, some day she will also remember and realize that I fought for her and gave everything, that I stood my ground for her.
I like this song and it sort of speaks my mind about #2.
Do you and Steve talk about an end date if WW doesn't get on board? I know Dr. Harley says up to 2 years for BH to Plan A? You've been almost a year, correct?
On end-date we have not discussed a specific date. Over time my energy level will erode and I will start caring less and less, so if there is no change over time then something like plan B (meaning a seperation) would be the next step.
We have discussed the 2 strategies, A and B, and the risks with both. With A, he is telling me the danger is that it runs the risk of reinforcing over time her bad habits, e.g. disrespectfulness, IB, etc.
I think its also important to note that since there is no active affair that these strategies are "like" a plan A and a plan B, but I guess that is just splitting hairs. She is not demonstrating care for me or meeting my ENs, which is what marriage is about of course for each spouse, so I try to demonstrate my willingess to change and persuade her to join me in changing our marriage together through my plan A (which is code for trying my best to meet her ENs, avoid LBs, etc.). At some point if she does not reciprocate, then the next strategy to employ is like plan B, a seperation.
When that point is, I can't say. Its like a race where you don't know how long you need to run, so keeping a steady pace and keeping going is all you can do.
We have not discussed a specific date. He has compared it to running a race and eventually the runner at some point says enough and does not want to run anymore and they are done. Where that point is depends on the runner and the course (that last part I added ).
We have not discussed a specific date. He has compared it to running a race and eventually the runner at some point says enough and does not want to run anymore and they are done. Where that point is depends on the runner and the course (that last part I added ).
Gotcha. Sorry my misunderstanding.
Marathon races are long. Maybe you'll be doing multiple Marathons?
Checking back with you to see how things are going after the summer. What's the latest? Hopeful to hear some good news...
I'll post an update on my movie over in my original thread.
Wishing you the best.
Driven2,
Thanks for thinking about my situation. I just saw your post today, hence the long wait to reply. I don't really have anything new to report. The summer had some good patches and some rough patches, mainly all around this 4-week vacation we took with us and some friends and family in July/August. But since returning in mid-August things have been sort of quiet, but in a neutral/good way.
I continue to work with Steve every couple of weeks and continue my Plan A, and I listen to the radio show each morning when I work out. It has been a year since D-Day, so Steve and I have discussed Plan B but neither Steve nor I think it is appropriate now since my energy level is ok and I am emotionally strong right now. WW and I continue to live together. We are busy with taking care of kids, now kids' school, work, etc. We usually go out as a family every week-end and interact ok at home. Me, I just keep on doing my plan A thing and trying out what Steve suggests. Steve has used this throwing pebbles into a pond analogy before and I guess it is like that, I just keep tossing in my pebbles and waiting for demonstrations of care and physical proximity to have an impact on her.
I saw a post from Marcos some time back where he talked about sudden shifts between hate and dislike, dislike and neutral, neutral and like, and finally like and romantic love. I would say we have shifted now back into neutral (which I guess in Harley-speak would also be the state of mind of conflict). She will try and bait me into fights sometimes when she is frustrated but I do not engage. I am pretty good now at maintaining my calm and thinking before I do anything. I also try to learn from these moments, because they are actually her complaining about something I am or am not doing.
We are actually coming up on the anniversary of OM's death, so Steve and I discussed this last week about her potential reactions. We have a family circus trip and then a mall outing planned for this weekend so will let you know what happens.
Have a question about DJs after reading a thread in the MB 101 forum by BigPicture where MelodyLane points out he is DJ'ing his wife and he tries to explain he is setting boundries.
WW has lots of AOs in front of kids. When this happens I have taken to saying "let's not yell in front of the kids, let's not teach them this" very calmly and I will firmly repeat this over and over until she stops or storms off. She will sometimes say "stop trying to teach me" or "who are you to tell me what to do."
Question: is she perceiving this as a DJ? Would it be better to let it pass for the moment and then bring it up later when we are alone (and she is calmer)?
I am afraid I am LBing her when I set these boundries the way I am doing. When we did the EN and LB questionnaires back in December 2011, this was the main complaint (DJs).
BH, there is a big difference between educating a spouse and not tolerating abuse. What your wife is doing is abusive and I agree you should put a stop to it. The best interest of your children trumps all.
Thanks MelodyLane for this clarification. I feel better about my approach. In fact just now at dinner she had a big AO, I calmly and firmly told her to stop, it went on for some time but I held firm. Eventually she backed off and a bit later apologized to me first and then the kids. She also started to cry and said something else is cauing her to be this way (I assume the OM death anniversary but who knows). Now she is nicer and asking me to help her with some stuff.
There are two ways of fighting abuse. You can challenge the abuse "Please do not behave like this towards me" or say nothing at all. Let them yell and scream. Step away and let the abuse go by you. That's what I did. I let her yell and scream. In India Ghandi never fought physically. He used passive resistance.
Thanks HDW. I use the 'step away' tactic also if the AO is aimed at me and the kids are not around. First though I usually ask her to stop first before I disengage.
WW is not that bad anymore, but there were times last year when she could be (and it sucked at that time!). She does get angry if I talk about MB, so I try to be subtle in weaving it into conversations.
There was an interesting segment on Thursday (yesterday my time) on the radio program where Dr. Harley discusses plan A and how a wife/WW can - after building up her emotional walls - reject her husband's showing of affection, i.e. getting her that cup of coffeee, but he says keep trying anyway as this can get in at least some little points in her love bank.
A lot of good topics on the show today, as always!
Ugghhh. The last couple of weeks or so things have been going much better. She has been much more talkative and friendly, and has even started being being flirty sometimes. Incidental touching has greatly increased and she has stopped shying away from my casual touching. Yesterday at DD's b-day party she even stroked my back and called me "such a great husband.".
Then this morning it is like it all went south again, "I hate you," "I'm not your wife," "leave me along." It is discouraging. Back to the plan...
Ugghhh. The last couple of weeks or so things have been going much better. She has been much more talkative and friendly, and has even started being being flirty sometimes. Incidental touching has greatly increased and she has stopped shying away from my casual touching. Yesterday at DD's b-day party she even stroked my back and called me "such a great husband.".
Then this morning it is like it all went south again, "I hate you," "I'm not your wife," "leave me along." It is discouraging. Back to the plan...
Are you seeing any correlation to anything when she has these mood swings?
Last time this happened I think there was an anniversary associated with the dead OM. This time, it sort of came out of the blue as she was waking up this morning. She worked really late last night so she was tired and really cranky. I think she wanted me to get DD up and dressed for school, but she normally does this while I get ready for work. She did not this morning and she and DD overslept. I then got attacked for waking her up.
She works at home doing writing work. In general, I am attentive to the potential of "attention" from someone else on-line but have nothing concrete on that, but I do keep watching.
Last night she slapped my butt playfully during dinner and she was back to being nice to me again. Maybe she just needed her coffee yesterday AM, I don't know.
I was listening to the radio show today where Dr. H talked about the state of conflict (after the state of withdrawal, not to be confused with affair withdrawal). He mentioned spousal love-busting behavior being sort of the norm in this state, although the spouse is also open to their emotional needs being met. She is in the state of conflict for sure.
Just thought I would pop in and say hi since its been 2 months since my last update.
We just spent the holidays with her family for a couple of weeks. It was pleasant and the kids loved it. Our marriage continues in the same limbo: ups and downs but no real intimacy and she is not on board with MB, so I continue my plan A. UA is not what it needs to be as it is always with the kids and she does not want to do anything w/o the kids (although I do get us out alone together to do errands or do shopping about once per week for a couple of hours).
Steve and I have recently discussed going into plan B at some point in the future but no firm date and for now I am still in plan A. I have no evidence of an OM, but my snooping is not 100% fullproof either. We had a conversation at her parents where I got frustrated with her and point-out asked her if she was having a new affair, and she said no and that she is still in love with the dead guy. This conversation went nowhere fast and was turning ugly so I let it die. She was strangely very sweet and kissed me the next day though, first time in ages.
Two days ago I thought something had changed again as she started flirting with me and approached me intimately, but with the kids around we had to wait so nothing happened. But yesterday she is back to LBing me, complaining about what I do/don't do, and tries to argue with me about every minor thing.
Any help in understanding her behavior would be appreciated. Also, any help in diagnosing things I may be missing or should focus on would also be appreciated. I have not spoken with Steve since before the holidays, but plan to set-up a call later this month to touch base with him.
Two days ago I thought something had changed again as she started flirting with me and approached me intimately, but with the kids around we had to wait so nothing happened. But yesterday she is back to LBing me, complaining about what I do/don't do, and tries to argue with me about every minor thing.
Well it sounds like plan A is working! She is bouncing back and forth between conflict and withdrawal stages
Yes JK, that's what seems to be happening. I am afraid though that one of the problems is her hanging on to the dead OM, he can't do anything wrong dead unfortunately. This just seems like a neverending battle.
I am now reviewing my LBs to make sure they are eliminated. Sometimes I falter and will argue with her once a week or so (and this arguing is not voice raised, but just not agreeing with her about something). It is frustrating. I need to keep focused on no arguing ever. Dr. H mentioned this on the radio show Friday, about eliminating all LBs 100%.
Two days ago I thought something had changed again as she started flirting with me and approached me intimately, but with the kids around we had to wait so nothing happened. But yesterday she is back to LBing me, complaining about what I do/don't do, and tries to argue with me about every minor thing.
What are her complaints?
Are you arguing back with her?
BrainHurts,
Sometimes I do still find myself arguing back, or respectfully disagreeing :), but she still sees this as arguing with her. I will stay focused on eliminating this as a LB. Usually, this stuff just rolls off of me now.
Her complaints recently have been 2 main ones:
(1) Don't ask her if she wants me to do something or needs help with something, instead just do it. She wants me to be more proactive in doing stuff around the house that she finds important, which is often different than the things that need doing that I find important. We had a part-time maid for years that did alot of the housework but WW fired her last year and gets angry when I bring up taking her back/finding someone new. She likes cleaning a certain way and does not want someone else doing it, plus she values the act of me doing it without her asking or me asking (which I believe is a demonstration of affection by doing an act of care).
(2) She wants me more involved in teaching our kids and also not asking her about stuff or her opinion, but again just do it. I am very involved with the kids but not in teaching things like alphabet, reading, etc. I prefer to read to them, play games, take them outside, sports, etc. I will keep trying to improve this.
I try to get her opinion on stuff to be respectful, but she almost sees this as unattractive and would rather I just do it. This is funny to me now, since last year she complained that in our marriage we had always done things my way and she just followed along (we have followed my career our entire narriage and she has been a SAHM the entire time).
She also seems to get annoyed when I try to small talk her by Skype during the day so I do this less often now. I still to initiate conversation this way with her but she resists.
I see you were together before marriage. Did you live together? I lived together with my ex wife. After reading the book Buyers Renters Freeloaders I realized that we were renters out entire marriage.
Were you and your wife ever buyers? If so she may not want to be a buyer. She may want to remain a renter
I don't recall if you ever got a full confession or a polygraph from your WW. At this stage it's like she is holding on to some imagined golden age in her life, and the OMs death has made him heroic.
That your WW still loves someone else means she has no intention yet of recovery.
That your WW still loves someone else means she has no intention yet of recovery.
BH, do you have an end date for your career as a caretaker "Wack Job Happy Farm" where WW chooses to reside? Seriously, sixteen months carrying a torch for what is by now moldy worm-food?
I see you were together before marriage. Did you live together? I lived together with my ex wife. After reading the book Buyers Renters Freeloaders I realized that we were renters out entire marriage.
Were you and your wife ever buyers? If so she may not want to be a buyer. She may want to remain a renter
Yes JK, you are insightful. We lived together 2.5 years before marrying and frankly she was a buyer when we first married, and I was a renter big-time although did not realize it until I found MB. She does want to remain a renter for now it seems.
There was a time when we were both buyers at the same time after our first child. After our 2nd child things started to deteriorate and she tried to get us to work with a counselor, and she complained but I did not listen. There are no excuses of course for what she did, but there are reasons and I am at fault for withdrawing after our 2nd child and not listening to her complaints. Painful lessons indeed...
I don't recall if you ever got a full confession or a polygraph from your WW. At this stage it's like she is holding on to some imagined golden age in her life, and the OMs death has made him heroic.
That your WW still loves someone else means she has no intention yet of recovery.
God Bless Gamma
Gamma,
She confessed the day he died, but not everything. The rest I found out by reading their e-mails later.
And yes, this memorialization is keeping us spinning our wheels.
That your WW still loves someone else means she has no intention yet of recovery.
BH, do you have an end date for your career as a caretaker "Wack Job Happy Farm" where WW chooses to reside? Seriously, sixteen months carrying a torch for what is by now moldy worm-food?
NeverGuessed,
Moldy worm-food, I like it))
Steve and I have discussed plan B in alot more detail in our last 2 calls, but we have not discussed a set date. For now my energy level is ok so I am still in plan A, aka "wack job happy farm."
So what do you think about what Steve says about Plan B? What do you think about it?
Well, plan A as long as possible with WWs, right?
So you don't want to put an end date on it?
I have not yet. Steve has told me to go as long as I can and as long as my energy level remains ok.
I'll ask him what he recommends later this week. It is a good question. I assume I have been able to hold out this long in ok emotional shape because there is no ongoing affair (with a living person that is!).
I don't recall if you ever got a full confession or a polygraph from your WW. At this stage it's like she is holding on to some imagined golden age in her life, and the OMs death has made him heroic.
That your WW still loves someone else means she has no intention yet of recovery.
God Bless Gamma
Gamma,
She confessed the day he died, but not everything. The rest I found out by reading their e-mails later.
And yes, this memorialization is keeping us spinning our wheels.
BH
When OM died I thought of it as a huge gift for our marriage. Looking back now, what I thought was a gift seems to be instead a curse. Instead of the guy making mistakes and throwing her under a bus eventually, he is perfect forever in her mind.
She has noticed a number of times;