I totally understand. I know your kids are young.

I think you're doing a fantastic Plan A and that shows by her being in the state of conflict, which is better than withdrawl.

You are doing good on cleaning up your side of the street. Can you schedule dome UA time without the kids?

Do you still travel with your job?

Thanks BrainHurts. What would she be doing in withdrawal state versus conflict state? I sometimes am unsure. Fighting and trying to engage in fighting (conflict) versus total avoidance (withdrawal)?

On UAT, before her walls went back up in mid-February we were doing better, but she has tried to avoid UAT the last couple of weeks. I make an effort to be around home when kids are out a couple of times a week, keep asking her to lunch, etc. She has been turning things down, but I keep asking. This concert last week I guess, and shopping next week would be a breakthrough (and her idea). It is hard right now with her being so resistant to spending alone time with me. We get a lot of time together with the kids. I will keep trying. Ideas are welcome

On my job, I used to travel about 25-35%, now I travel much less, maybe twice a quarter. We have not been apart overnight in 3 months. I have a 10 day trip next month unfortunately to a different country.

Wow, wow BlackHawk. I went back and read your entire thread and have to commend your Plan A ability and your patience of not letting your "Taker" take over. I know you are in Plan A, but what do you do when she spills vomit all over you with her "I hate you comments and we will only be together until the kids leave"? Do you tell her "I don't like it when... and then exit the room?

I think posters are concerned that you may become a doormat.

I also see that a few posters have recommended Plan B, but I agree with you that you need to follow Steve Harley's advice. Can she go with you when you travel out of town next month?

I see you are coaching with Steve Harley and that is awesome. When is your next session with him?
Is there anyway he can "persuade" your wife to get another session with him again?

I know you've been snooping again, but can you up your tactics? Do you have a keylogger put on her computer?

To me it seems like your wife is in the state of conflict and wants to cause a fight? I know she is still in the wayward mindset, but it sounds like she may be "talking" with someone else? I mean a 6 month from the time that the OM died and she still doesn't want to commit to the marriage? A red flag if you ask me.

You have also read the links by Dr. Harley on the 3 states of Mind in Marriage?

Also BlackHawk I just found a radio clip from Dr. Harley telling children even as young as 4.

The Harley's discuss telling the children even as young as 4 about the affair

Yes, I leave the room and tell her I don't like it. I still use an approach Steve gave me and remind her I want our marriage to be something we both enjoy and something new and better than it was, depending on what she says, and that when we were both working the plan with Steve we were interacting better and were happier. But she has not done this so strongly (the vomit :)) in a couple of weeks. For example, just now we had a nice day with the kids and we started conversing again after a cold week. But at dinner just now she got very angry and yelled at me in front of the kids, so a backslide. I told her I don't like her doing that, very calmly, and asked her to stop. She continued and l left the room. I came back later and she said "I thought we could start talking again, but see what happens." I just ignored this. She is now being short with me again, but not as bad as before, and some friendliness now an hour later. I think I am making progress and setting boundries on yelling in front of the kids is worth the potential step back.

On leaving town together, the kids make this very, very difficult, and I do not think she will agree to go with me regardless. I will ask her though anyway. Thanks for the idea.

On coaching, I speak with Steve tomorrow. We're working on getting her to speak again, but she has not agreed as of yet. Will keep trying. I talk with Steve every 2 weeks or so.

On snooping, no keylogger. She put a password on her computer a few weeks ago and I can't figure out how to get around it (yet). This is a big hole I know but I will keep trying if for nothing but my own peace of mind. My snooping is pretty good otherwise, but have found nothing.

On state of mind, yes, I think we were starting to drop periodically into intimacy, then around Valentine's day she went into conflict and then into withdrawal. Now I feel like she is moving back into conflict, especially the last couple of days. On a new OM, I of course worry about this, frankly alot, although I have no proof, so I have not confronted her. She added a password to her computer a few weeks ago too, hence the keylogger problem. But the kids were on it too messing around and it made her mad so it could have been because of that. It is unclear, and yes a red flag to me too. I discussed with Steve and he said it could be either an OM or something switched in her brain with the dead previous OM, some memory or something (like what Gamma suggested) related to Valentine's day. Also, I am fully confident there was no 2nd OM before February.

On the states of mind in marriage, yes, and today I reviewed again the 3 states or mind in marriage in Love Busters (so I sort of answered my own question on typical behaviors in each state!).

Thanks BrainHurts. I will defintely discuss this one with Steve tomorrow.

Great, keep us updated. Pulling for you BlackHawk, and you're in fantastic hands with Steve Harely.

BrainHurts,

On exposing to kids, Steve advised not to do this in my specific situation.

He agreed we were oscillating between intimacy and conflict in Dec-Feb. She slid into conflict and back to the state of withdrawal in late February. Now, my presence/plan A/demonstration of changes is bringing her back to the state of conflict regularly (like you noted), so he advised to keep chipping away, and be ready to keep going for an unknown distance because mine is an unusual situation with the OM death (i.e. this is a marathon, sprinting is hurtful and to be avoided).

I am to keep taking opportunites as they present themselves to respectfully persuade her working on the M with Steve/MB is the best thing for her happiness, etc. Keep snooping too to rule out another OM. On this he did not rule it out, but he leans toward it being her being ruled by her emotions, with them being especially strong because of the OM death.

Good BlackHawk I'm so glad you're able to coach with Steve H, and thanks for the update.

It seems like your lovebank is doing well? I mean it seems like yours is full for her. You remind me of John and Sue and how well John did with Sue.

I think you would be an inspiration for many BH here.

Have you ever looked in on INTERAL_PAIN's thread in recovery? He struggles with the SF with his WW.

So are you still taking care of yourself in your wonderful Plan A? Do you two workout together?

I just heard on the radio show Dr. H tell a BW she should go workout with her WH because they go to seperate gyms.

BrainHurts,

Lovebank-wise I am in an ok place. When we were drifting back towards intimacy in Dec-Feb that helped refill me, as did the frequent SF during that time. Of course that makes riding the roller coaster back down frustrating. But it is a marathon and I am committed to the long-haul. My kids help motivate me too, and perhaps that is my biggest motivation.

Working with Steve has helped guide me through these minefields and know what to expect and how to react, I guess much like John did in SAA working directly with Dr. Harley. I find these boards so useful as well of course, and regular reading and re-reading of the web materials and the books.

I read INTERNAL_PAIN's thread today, by the way. It reminded me again about how long this stuff takes. I guess the hardest part is having this proactive patience. I know I want to rush things, and think why doesn't she see this like I do? But as DoormatNoMore wrote, it usually takes more time to win WWs back.

I am doing a decent job of taking care of myself physically. I am at my college weight, but more toned and muscular than anytime in my life with these daily work-outs . I make sure to sleep and eat well and don't really drink that much anymore, except for the occasional beer or when sharing a bottle of wine with WW (found myself too emotional too easily when drinking early on in this). As for WW, she is into yoga off and on but she does not work out regularly. It is a really great idea though and I will try to see if I can interest her.

My thing right now is in increasing our UAT, even though she does not want much UAT the last couple of weeks. That, and focusing my time on our kids when WW and I are together. We have some things planned this week and frankly was surprised she agreed.

So what does she like to do during your recreational time?

You sound like you are doing really well.

Do you think you and your wife are in the start of recovery?

We're not in recovery. And I would not say we are doing so well at the moment, as she is not committed to the marriage. Instead, I would say that we were doing well Dec-Feb in moving towards recovery, and now I am doing as well as I can by continuing to work the plan with Steve's help.

Things were moving towards recovery in Dec-Feb, especially when we were both working with Steve. In fact, I even considered moving to the Recovery forum, good grief! But with this backslide in mid February her walls are up and she is hostile towards me the last few weeks and hostile towards working on the marriage in any way, shape or form. But step by step I am chipping away at the walls, and I see that as that happens day by day, then her hostility slowly reduces. It just takes time I guess, and the other situations I read about on here seem to support this: time, time, time.

We are living together throughout all this and that is tremendously important in my opinion, as it gives time for daily interaction, with or without UAT, and let's her see my demonstration of change regardless.

Recreationally, being outside with the kids, shopping, walks. Again,this was going well 6 weeks ago before her walls came back up. Now not so much, but we are supposed to go shopping together today, but had a lot of drama this morning where she lost her wallet, so not sure we will go.

My WW is guided by her feelings, as a person. Further, she does not believe in the changes in me yet that she sees, and thus she is guarded in her feelings towards me. She started to let her guard down (walls down) in Dec-Feb and it became apparent to me that her feelings were slowly, slowly changing again. That was when we began to periodically return to the state of mind of intimacy. But then in mid-Feb, for whatever reason, she pulled away again, maybe she felt we were becoming too intimate and she put her walls back up for protection. So that is where we are now, back in the withdrawal-conflict stae of mind zone.

When they say this is a roller coaster, they are not kidding! So it is important to understand these steps back will happen as feelings oscillate day to day and week to week and month to month. It is important I think to not let these peaks and valleys cause a BS to lose hope and for the BS to keep working the plans regardless. It is truly a marathon.

Anyway,this is how I see my situation from my reading and working with Steve. Just keeping working the plans and chipping away at her walls.

Good day shopping 6 hours with WW yesterday. We had fun together, bought some stuff for home and for DS's b-day.

That is great, stuff for the home.
Maybe you could suggest a little change in the home, a project you two could do together, shop for, lots of opportunity to spend time ask for opinions and have fun with.
Can you think of something she wants to change a new garden?
Time equals closeness.
Let her control the design
Kids bedrooms?
Even if she says no at first start without her she will follow

Thanks jessi for the ideas. She has been talking about curtains and changing the kitchen furniture so maybe these are a start.

We had a good day Wednesday, but then Thursday back to her being short-tempered and critical towards me again, for the most part. These yo-yos in behavior are frustrating. Its like she starts to let her guard down with me, we become comfortable together, incidental touching, talking, but then the next morning its like it never happened and back to the guardedness and short-temper.

Question: if WW was secretly reading this thread, could that be damaging to our situation?

Good suggestion jessi! My H & I did this. We built a fish pond & waterfall in our backyard. It took lots of planning, designing, shopping and working together but it was worth it. Then choosing our fish & plants. Sitting back, admiring our finished project, watching the fish and waterfall was so relaxing and rewarding.


That's why they call this a "rollercoaster ride" You just gotta hang on tight! You're doing a great job! Keep it up!

If you feel your W is reading your thread, notify the moderators by clicking on the notify link on the bottom of your post. Let them know the reason for your concerns and ask if they have any suggestions, solutions or advice. Yes, it might be damaging to your efforts.

Thanks Nerlycrzy for your comments. It is a rollercoaster and then some!

The last few days she is back to giving me the cold shoulder and doing her best to ignore me most of the time, e.g. if I ask her a question she just pretends not to hear unless I repeat the question 3 times. Or if I start a conversation, she will try to avoid it or leave the room. It is quite childish. Should I just give her space and go about my business?

When she does this do you let her know?

"It hurts me when you ignore me and walk out of the room". If you do what does she say?