Good morning! What I am about to write is a very long journal of my thoughts. I need to write down my inner thoughts and struggles. It helps to keep writing and organizing my thoughts.

We had quite a bit of wet snow this morning. As I was shoveling my driveway, I came to the realization that

(1) XBF and I had the same conversation repeatedly while we were together, whenever we talked about our future. As long as we were not talking about �us� and the �future� we got along well and had fun together but once we started talking about THE topic we got in an argument. This suggests that no matter how I argue or disagree (the fact he could not give me what I was looking for either and thus I built a wall around me to protect myself from the hurt, which to him felt that I was not that much into him), this is how he feels/felt about me and us. And I cannot change his thoughts/feelings. Only HE can choose to change that.

(2) No men like to have this type of relationship talk. This is why in the past whenever we had the talk, we got uncomfortable and changed the subject. We appeared to become �just fine� soon as we stopped talking about our future, but in reality we never really solved the core issues. I had sent letters/emails about us before (because when we had the talk face to face, it always ended up in argument so I decided to let him know of my thoughts in writing), and he each time said he would get back to me on these issues but he never did. I pretended that I had forgotten about it and we just went back to having a �normal� life. The reason he got back to me this time, and this time only, is because I sort of threatened that I would assume he is �done� with us if he did not get back to me by Thursday. So continuing on having the talk will not serve well at all, it will be a huge turn-off. Frankly, even for me, it�s such a daunting task to have more discussion at this point.

(3) He is on the online dating site already. He wants to find someone else. In the meantime he wishes he could still be in our (my and my DS�s) lives. He may just not want to lose touch with DS, he may still miss having interaction with me, or it could be his �back-up� plan in case he cannot find anyone else or new relationship does not work out. Regardless, it�s all good for him, because it�s not emotionally hard on him doing this but it IS for me. The more I pursue, the easier it becomes for him to have this sort of life.

Above is the rationale thinking, early in the morning in the crispy cold air, lol. I know you guys all agree with me. Now here is the non-rationale, emotion-driven thinking:

a. If he was truly done, he did not need to get back to me and simply let me know that we are done. There is some hope that I would still allow him in our lives, regardless of the motivation.

b. Several weeks ago when we were talking about investment opportunities in certain IPOs, he told me �if you want and decide to do this IPO investment but are short of fund, let me know�. Yes, this does not mean anything about our romantic relationship, but surely he trusts me and also is completely comfortable about potentially stuck together as co-investors. If he wanted to cut the code completely, he would not have said what he said.

c. Even though we always had the same conversation (that he feels that I am not that into him or I am doing him a favor by playing golf with him on weekends), he often talked about future in a strange way. For example, he always asked me �if I ever become too old to take care of myself and to function properly, just kill me�.

When I totally detach myself from the situation and analyze this, it seems XBF is not THAT clear on things and he still does not know 100% what he wants.

So this is where my neediness kicks in, started wondering if going to see a counselor would help? Then I go back to my own thought #2. Why on earth would XBF agree to go see a counselor when he does not even want to respond to my emails regarding us, unless I give him the deadline?

If he was not this stubborn a person, I would say �just stop contacting completely, if HE truly misses us and wants to reconcile, he WOULD contact me. But he is very proud, so I know with the 100% accuracy that if I do not do anything now, this is it, we will NEVER ever see each other again in our lifetime.

I understand I need to ask myself many questions. He does not want to compromise (I told him I am willing to sell my house and move for him, I am playing golf with him but he does not have to go skiing with me and DS, we almost always went to places he liked on vacation, I stopped wishing spending the entire weekend as a family or just two of us together because he always had golf tournament and/or lessons and/or games with his brother and friends on at least one of the weekend, if not both, he complained about packing and coming to my house on every other weekend and stayed just one night while I never complained about packing and going to his house on every other weekend and I stayed for two nights, I always pleased him in bed while I did not really ask him much in return), but he wants me to treat him like a king. Is that what I want? Sure, when I put down like this, it doesn�t sound too much of a �catch�, and maybe that�s why I showed in my attitude that he was the greatest �catch� to me. So what makes me think that even if we get back together, unless certain things change that I will be happy enough to treat him like a king? No, so IF and only IF we ever get back together successfully, we both need to recognize the needs for improvement and to be able to discuss the issues heart to heart. Is that what XBF wants? Probably not. But I am willing to do this.

Do I leave him an option of (because he is so proud and will never contact me if I ignore his email) contacting me in the future only if he wants to get back and agrees to go counseling?
The reason I hang onto him is because of what I said earlier about other couples. I have yet never seen any married couples over several years (over 10 years) that they are still madly in love and happy. My parents have been married for 47 years. They still do many things together and travel together, but my mom complains about my dad a lot, and I know they are together mostly because they are just too old to make any changes. Also they do not have any other people they are attracted to, so still my mom is the best for my dad and vice versa, but it�s not like �oh I love this person so dearly�, no. A lot of my friends are still married but inside stories are not that glorious. Everyone sort of �gave up� on ideal relationship/marriage, and accept the reality as is.

So I know as a fact, no matter who I end up with, I will never be 100% satisfied. He won�t be either. My XBF meets many of my �must have� list. Sure he has flaws but so do I. I am attracted to him. So he is to me. We both love DS so deeply. Why cannot we make it work?

The fact he mentioned about the �ability to make things work out down the road��. He might be thinking �I� need to make changes to make it work, not necessarily him�, but isn�t that a start for now? If he has even a 5% willingness to give it a try, I feel that I would like to take. So it�s not necessarily out of desperation. This is a reflection of reality and recognition that there is no such thing as �perfect relationship�, so I just want to fix and treasure what we already have.

I need to protect myself, yes. At the same time I cannot help but trying to be strategic about the whole thing. Is there a way to reach XBF in a short, not-too-heavy yet effective way, to let him know my thoughts abouve? Or do you honestly think that XBF is completely done. I somehow do not feel that, given the fact he responded to me and other things I mentioned above.

OK, now I am sounding very pathetic again.

I'm sorry milkshake, but this makes no sense at all. Your entire post is full of "what ifs" that might help you get him back, though probably on his terms, not yours. Are you nuts?? Do you not recall that you were the one who wanted to get rid of him, and for good reasons? The constant golf disapperances? The inability to say ILY to you after 5 years? The inability or lack of interest in giving you what you want, a commitment?

I can't understand why you are devoting so much energy to figuring out what is going in his mind, and how you might get him to be something that he won't ever be. And your comments about "no couple is happy after several years, so maybe this is as good as it gets" are very misguided and are the #1 reason why people choose to marry the wrong partners. I was going to say "don't make that mistake", but there is no risk of that since this guy has no interest in marrying you, right?

I think I suggested it before, but I'd recommend you read Will Our Love Last? , it is a great book and will help you get a better feel for assessing compatibility and not making excuses for a bad match.

AGG

Milkshake, go get a copy of He's Just Not That Into You. Read it. Read it again. Accept the fact that he's not the one. Get him out of your life so that there will be space for the RIGHT one to show up.

This---
>> The reason I hang onto him is because of what I said earlier about other couples. I have yet never seen any married couples over several years (over 10 years) that they are still madly in love and happy. My parents have been married for 47 years. They still do many things together and travel together, but my mom complains about my dad a lot, and I know they are together mostly because they are just too old to make any changes. Also they do not have any other people they are attracted to, so still my mom is the best for my dad and vice versa, but it�s not like �oh I love this person so dearly�, no. A lot of my friends are still married but inside stories are not that glorious. Everyone sort of �gave up� on ideal relationship/marriage, and accept the reality as is.>>


is faulty reasoning. IF it is true, (and I don't believe it is) then still and yet you are saying you are feeling this way BEFORE marriage. It has been FIVE years! Let him go!!



There are so many good matches out there. Don't settle for junk.

Cut this guy out of your life cold turkey. The sooner you do so the better for you AND for your ds!! And don't waste another five years on ANY man who isn't a good fit for marriage since MARRIAGE is what you want.

I remarried 11 weeks after I met dh. While in most 'worlds' THAT may be too quick, there is absolutely NO REASON it should take FIVE years to determine if a man/woman is a keeper or not. Some once suggested that after a year of 'life'....going through all the seasons, vacation, family events etc together....that you should know if you are a fit or not. It it doesn't feel long term after a year, let him go.

Not true. My dh LOVES relationship talk. We talk about 'us' all of the time.


I wish I had a dime for every time I attempted to talk to my WXH about our relationship and marriage. And a dime for every time he refused in one way or another. I did everything I could to fix it but HE DIDN'T WANT TO....you cannot make another human 'want' to be with you.....or want to marry you....or want to talk about your relationship.

Then I met my now dh and I realize how easy it is to love someone and to be loved.

Yes. This. I haven't read it, but I hear it is great.

You got me AGG. That is correct. No matter what, XBF is not interested in marrying me. This is why as long as we were just dating things were fine, but the minute we talked about marriage, we ended up in an argument.

I was actually starting to think along the 'I don't need to get married' line... Why? Because of the same reason, I feel that if I ever get married again, I will always end with the heartache. I wish it's more black and white, you either marry the right kind or be happy the rest of your life, or not. Unfortunately, many marry with excellent intention and motivation and love and respect...., still after many years, your ego and selfishness and desire for 'something new' always kicks in..., so maybe staying as boyfriends and girlfriends might be safer. OK, I am a bit lying here, as of course I would like my BF to be able to commit for life but right now I feel that even boyfriend/girlfriend is nice...

As for his golf disappearances and inability to say ILY..., sadly I think I am used to it now... I view that as his flaw, and I feel that I am willing to trade that in for other things such as his hardworking nature, that he does not flirt with other women, he is good to DS, he is smart and dependable. We all have to compromise; we will never get everything we want in life, right?

I don't want to sound like a broken recorder, but another thing is that it is pretty difficult for me to be physically attracted to a man....

I am scared, however, that if I tell him that I do not need to get married I just want to be with him...., it will weaken my position and would that promote him to go cheat on me? He never did and that's not in his character, however now he is online. He may think "Milkshake is willing to get back to me no matter what, it won't hurt for me to check around other options then".

AGG, you are a wise man. You are NOT XBF, but if you put yourself in XBF's shoe..., is there a way for you to turn around and want to get back with me, if I do not pressure marriage?

Guess I missed a bunch of follow-up posts from you guys. Thanks Kirby and SmilingWoman.

Believe me, I know I sound pathetic, and I am not like this AT ALL on any other aspects of my life, except for my romantic life. I am a control freak; probably that�s why I do fine in other areas since I can control them (career, finances, house choir, etc.) but totally lose and feel vulnerable when it comes to relationships.

Even after I posted my response to AGG, I hated the fact I did it, that I just cannot accept the reality that XBF did not love me ENOUGH to make the commitment and try to work things out TOGETHER, instead of not giving me what I wanted but expected ME to treat him like a king and be his biggest fan. I keep telling myself �GET THE PICTURE ALREADY, HE DOES NOT WANT TO!!!�

I just cannot imagine one day I actually meet someone I LOVE again, someone who meets my needs and I can meet his�.. after two failed relationships, it seems impossible. I honestly feel that �I� am not fit for relationships. I am a great mother, but maybe can never be a great GF or wife. And those who think I am great as a person and woman, I am never interested in. What is wrong with me�.?

Milkshake, there are so many things wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to start. Lots of us have been , trying to tell you that you do NOT need to settle, do NOT need to accept crumbs, do NOT need to hang on to someone who disappears and yells, and yet you keep rationalizing and justifying and explaining. But you are not going to convince me or others, especially those of us who have found mates with whom we did not have to settle... I suspect you don't truly believe what you are saying, you are just saying this out of pain, rather than what you truly believe deep down inside. I hope .


I dunno, milkshake, I cannot put myself into your XBF's shoes because I have always been a family man. The idea of yelling at my partner, disappearing every weekend to play golf, not wanting to talk to my partner about "us", or not being able to commit, is just totally foreign to me.

But I can tell you this - I have several times broken up with women who, IMO, were not right for me, and who then said "OK, I am going to change", or "I no longer want what I previously wanted" (e.g. have a kid), or change in some other way. And inevitably, that never made me think "great, let's give it another shot". If anything, I lost some respect for them. And you cannot love someone whom you do not respect. Besides, I would never want someone to fundamentally change for me, that's just not fair to anyone.

You are still missing the elephant in the room - not that he did not want to marry you, but that he did not treat you the way you wanted to be treated. You were right to end things with him, and you would be making a huge mistake going back to that unsatisfying relationship. But it's your choice - a little bit of pain from breaking up, or prolonged pain from going around in circles yet again.

AGG

Seconded. My H has no issues talking about our relationship. That's because he's generally happy with it, and with me. But back when we were first going out, it was like pulling teeth.

Seriously, milkshake, you've got to let this guy go. Like...today. No need to send him any kind of final good bye. Just do it.

I really hope so too, I am in tremendous pain and I sure hope this is why I am not making sense.


This, one my GFs told me before..., hearing from a guy makes me believe more in it.


Somehow this made me cry. Thanks.

So now yours and SmilingWoman's husbands proved me wrong. That's great, I love being wrong in this arena.


Thanks kerala, I know you told me that your H was not able to committ way back when you were dating, and he changed. You did not think back then, though, that you and commitment-phobic boyfriend will end up marrying in the future right? Did you two become friends AFTER you became emotionally detached from him?

I do not think I can nor want to wait 18 years like you , lol, but just curious... Well, knowing my and his personalities, your story will not apply, if I do not respond to his email, I KNOW that we will NEVER meet or speak again.

My head is telling me to cut him off. I just need to get stronger.

One day when you look back at this, you'll wonder what took you so long .

AGG

And THIS is how you know for sure he is not the one for you. And maybe it also means he knows you are not the one for him and he is strong enough to not contact you again.





AGG is right....you will someday wonder 'what was I thinking?!' Did you watch that clip that Kirby posted called 'Let Folks Go'. It is priceless. I've showed it to my ds12 and my dh and everyone I can think of . I LOVE it.

And as someone else said, 'you can't make room for the right one when your life is consumed by the wrong one.'

Let him go.

Here is a trick I used when I was 'letting go' of my WXH. I pretended he was dead. You can't email a dead man. You can't call him either.

Pretend he is dead. I had to do that with my X because I knew I could NEVER take him back or I would be totally destroyed....but I knew I was susceptible to being sucked back in by him because I had been married to him for 26 years and he was/is the father of my child. Yet I KNEW I had to be done with him. So I pretended he was dead.

Whatever trick will work for you...let him go.

UGG --- AGG can you please clarify the bold?

From my understanding of reading Dr. Harley, in a buyer relationship partners are adapting to the changing needs of the other partner. If you partner is not meeting your needs, then change has to happen so the partner can learn how to meet your needs. It is done in a POJA format.

Wow, I can't believe you're still rehashing this because we've gone over this and over this time and again and it's as if you want to keep saying the same things over and over until you hear what you WANT to hear, which is, "there is no such thing as the perfect match, you have to settle so you might as well make compromises and settle for THIS man". But you aren't going to catch any of us saying that because we are telling you the opposite!

Incidentally, my late husband and I talked about EVERYTHING, including relationship, and we were deeply in love and in sync and very happy! My son is nearly 28 and has looked for the right person all his life. He has never like relationship talk. UNTIL last summer when he met THE ONE! We have been having a wonderful time watching him turn into one of us! He spent a month searching thousands of rings to find JUST THE RIGHT ONE for the girl of his dreams! He made special plans for THE PROPOSAL. They are planning a huge wedding, in which he is a happy participant. This is the person he wants to spend the rest of his life with, he has waited for her all of his life, and they couldn't be happier! He used to hate being on the phone, now he dashes when he hears it ring because "it might be a call from HER!" These changes have come about because he has finally met THE ONE and he wants and desires to be with her and please her, just as she does him. For the first time in his life I see ready smiles on his face (he's always been serious and stoic) and he glows...as does his bride to be. THIS is what you should wait for! Don't settle! I had it with my late husband, and it was a huge mistake when I remarried and I've paid a dear price for it. If I can't have that all out love again, I'd rather be alone. Being alone is not a bad thing, it's not the worst thing in the world...being with the WRONG person is!

Thanks SmilingWoman, you guys are so strong and supportive and full of wisdoms. I managed to function at work over the past several days because of you guys. Seriously. Thank you.

I actually draged the whole thing a bit too long too when my marriage ended. My XH's personality is very different, and I knew he would come back when he wanted to.. and he did, but he just wanted to use me. In the meantime I kept praying and hoping that he would become a person with honesty and strength and responsibility - that never happened. I wasted a lot of time waiting around for him. Then I met my XBF. I do give him a credit and thank him that because of him, I was able to eventually let go of XH and started having fun again. Even though our relationship ended and it took us 5 years to realize that, I am glad at least I did not waste my time waiting for XH

I could not pretend my XH was dead, even though I wanted to, because I have to see him every other weekend. So that made it much harder for me to move on. And also he is the father of my son. But with XBF, if I pretend he is dead, I can actually pull it together..., today I deleted his last phone message from this past Monday. It was hard and I cried, but I did not want to remember his voice. My navigation system still has his address, but I will delete it today.

I hate the end of the relationships. KC is right, sometimes I wonder why people want to continue to fall in love...., it's so painful. I hope there are meanings to all of my heartache. I also feel so sorry for my son, for losing two important men in his life at such young age. DS's basketball coach likes me and asked me out, although I declined. Yet, I can tell my son seems to be somehow hoping that the other man will come and rescue us?

I sense that DS is trying NOT to talk about XBF, maybe because he sees pain in me or maybe it's painful for him as well so he does not want to talk about it..., he did ask one time if I miss XBF. I said yes, but kept it light. He asked why we would not be together so I told him I did not think it was a good idea to stay boyfriend/girlfriend without getting married. He agreed, he wants me to get married again.

Happy to clarify. IN NO WAY did I wait for my now H. We did not speak for over a year, then slowly became friends. Even after that, I had two serious relationships with lovely men, both of which could have ended up in marriage. Ultimately, they didn't work out and J proved to me that he wanted a true commitment. If anything, I took some convincing.

That's a nice story. I love hearing happy-ending stories...;) Again, that won't happen to XBF. He takes what comes to him, but he does not chase after. He is the only one I ever dated who never really pursued me. Sure he liked me, but if I didn't call, he was okay not calling me for a few days.

XBF does not really have many friends. One he speaks to the most is a golfer, and he is single too. When they have a conflict, it's always his friend who ends up calling XBF. One time they did not speak for 2 weeks and XBF told me "we may not talk again.... but that's okay if it turns out to be like that", but I could tell he was in pain. I asked why he would not call him, but he shook his head. He said he does not have 'friends' because that was his choice..., the other one he knows since college is bi-sexual and still single. So he really does not have any good friends who are happily married. I wonder if that had anything to do with the whole thing... His brother is married but no kids, because he wants his golf to come first, and he and his wife go on vacation whenever he needs to go practice and have private lessons from famous coaches. They never just go to places because she wants to or just for sight seeing. It has to be always golf-related reasons. She does everything and anything for him, she even carries his bags, so I know XBF thinks his brother is very lucky (which he said to me many times). Yet he felt that his brother is selfish, and claimed he is not like that (which is true, XBF is much much better than his brother).

Anyway, I can't wait for the day I feel 'nothing' or better yet, "great, I am so much happier now, why didn't I break up with him sooner?".

They continue to take the risk because the rewards are great if it pans out.

My advice, go out with the coach and anyone else nice that asks you...not to fall in love or get married, but just to have fun and enjoy someone else's company and get to know them. And if somewhere along the journey you should happen to meet the right man, all the better, right? Just don't try to make every date into a potential marriage partner, they're just a date, keep it light and take things slow with people.

And I'm APPLAUDING you for deleting his message! YAY!