I have posted on divorce/divorcing a number of years ago, unfortunately I could not save my marriage. However I did meet someone afterwards, and we dated for nearly 5 years. I have a 9-year-old and he has never been married.

It's been a long time, we did talk about marriage several times before but it always ended up in argument. Initially he wanted to marry but I was not ready yet. In recent years I became ready but he started to find excuses (?) to drag the whole thing.

He says that having to sell two houses is a big issue. He has no intention to move into my house as it will be too long a commute to his work and also because he is an architect, and he has particular 'preferences' when it comes to choosing a place to live and also a type of house.

To be honest, I need to consider my work and also my son's school, and this is the house he was born, of course we are very attached to this house, but I have told my BF numerous times that "the address is not important, that we are being together is the most important thing. And I am willing to move to a place where he feels happy".

Still he feels it is going to be hard, as I have lots of support here, and we have lots of stuff in the house. But I cannot put up the house for sale if he has not even proposed to me or ever said that he "loves me".

Since it is not going anywhere, I suggested that we take a break. That was about a month and half ago. We still talked sometimes and emailed each other, but we were no longer calling and emailing each other every day. We also met twice during this time, once with my son and once alone.

Then I got a bit upset - I went to see him in the evening on Sunday two weeks ago, and by the time I left his house it was pretty late. He did not call me that night to make sure I got home safely, and I was secretly hurt. Even though we are on a 'break', I thought he would have called.

It was not till Wednesday I heard from him. He emailed me about something (general topic, nothing to do with 'us') to which I replied in an usual nice friendly manner, but at the end of the email I said "I thought you would have called me last Sunday to make sure I got home okay", to which he said "My bad, I lost track of time". But he had Monday and Tuesday...., he obviously was not concerned of me.

So I said something like "I figured you do not love me or want to be with me", to which he did not respond.

He is very stubborn, he would never call or email me unless I initiate. I always called or emailed me first whenever we had any argument in the past too.

Do you think I should contact him? Sigh.

If this is the same guy who would disappear to play golf every weekend, you were totally incompatible. I'd say good riddance and no, do not contact him again.

He never said "ILY" in your 5 years together??

AGG

He clearly is not really interested in you, at least not in a way that bodes well for marriage. Leave him be and get on with your life.

I agree with the others. He's just not that into you. You deserve better. Now you're free to find someone who will really love you.

100% NO !!!

This is a sour relationship and it has remained sour despite your best efforts.

Cut bait.
Pull anchor.
Fish another spot.

What Pep said............

I agree with the others. If two people love each other, they declare it. They don't come up with excuses to not be together, they brainstorm ways TO BE TOGETHER. They care about each other and need to know the other made it home safely.

I think you already know the answer, you may not want to know, but it's there inside of you...you just need to do the right thing for you and DO NOT CONTACT HIM! Let him go. You have invested five years of your life with someone that is not the one. Time to enjoy today with your son...you don't need a man in your life, but freeing yourself up from this person may just pave the way for someone right for you to enter your life at some point.

Wow, you guys are GOOD, you remember my story...!!! I was really impressed by your memory but more importantly, was touched as I feel like you guys are long-known friends

I could not see any of your replies till now, and I did contact him on Sunday as I had to ask him about something he did to my humidifier. He was helpful, asked me to call him back to let him know if I would need anything else, etc.

I know he loves me in his own way, but as all of you have pointed out, he does not love me the way I would like or he does not love me 'that much'. I have asked him that hearing from him that he 'loves me' is important to me, but he has always said "in my opinion, saying is not important, showing love in action is more important". I know what he means but still wanted to hear every once in a while, but he never said it.

I think I have shown him in my own way that I was willing to compromise - I played golf with him, signed my son up for golf lessons, did not ask him to come ski with us, I almost always let him pick the vacation spots (as all the places I picked he never liked), chose dishes he could eat whenever we went out as he has so many dishes he does not like but still always wanted to share (which means I had to pick things he could eat, not what I wanted to eat). Yet he always told me that he did not feel I was excited about him. He said he could tell I would do anything for my son but I would not be like that for him. I have explained to him that my son is still young and needs to be taken care of, there is no comparison.

I asked him if there is anything 'positive' about me since he was complaining about us so much. He said that I am beautiful, smart, succesful, great mother, great cook, sexy, great in bed, nice, atheletic, looks young, and so on. Then he said "but these are nothing to do with me". He thinks I play golf FOR him, not because I enjoy it truly. I told him I actually do enjoy when I am out there playing with him (even though I do not need or want to play every single weekend), but he starts yelling often when I am taking my time. Then I gave him an example when we went on vacation, we were at this beautiful course, and we (including my son) were enjoying ourselves. We were ahead of time, so we did not need to be in hurry, but just because the group of people behind us were faster and catching up, my BF got very irritated and started to yell at us "just go!". I got upset, and at that time I stopped playing.

I told him that there was no need for him to yell (he yells easily), especially we were ahead of time and were not holding other people up. He said "yeah, that was my fault, I did not realize we were ahead of time", although at that time I did point that out but he never said sorry or anything at that time. Then he went on to say "but by now you should know that I yell, but it does not mean I am angry, it is just the way I am".

I am still attached to him, I guess it is only natural because we spent nearly 5 years together. Weird..... He is very stubborn and proud, I know he will not apologize or say that he loves me even if he feels bad about certain things he did in the past, because he does not believe in 'changing', I should accept him for who he is. Maybe that's true too, I get confused sometimes.

Thanks for all of your inputs and really, for listening to me!!!! You guys rock!

Of course you're attached to him, but that doesn't mean it's a good relationship for you or that you ought to be. I repeat, you should have no more contact with him. Of course you'll do what you want, so I won't bother saying it again, but this one last time...he is not right for you and you are not right for him...otherwise, it would have gone different. This man does not have a lot to offer you emotionally and you would not only be "settling" if you gave him another chance, but you would live to regret it...probably sooner rather than later. Your son would suffer because of it too.

He doesn't think he can do both? It's not an either/or issue.

I saw some other things I was going to quote, but I'll just leave it at this: I agree with the other posters. Time for you to give other guys a shot at your fabulous self.

You deserve better.

This man is a used car sold 'as is'.
The car has idiosyncrasies that make riding in it very uncomfortable and unpleasant for you.
If you are holding on for 5 years because you hope that some day this 'as is' car will improve, you are wasting your time.
Once you've past the 5 year mark (actually, the 2 year mark) you do know if this is the vehicle for you.
It's not.
But you keep hoping it will be one day.

The part that bothers me the most is the following:


Please, do not MARRY a man with whom you cannot POJA.
The multiple sacrifices you make are a that you will eventually feel very resentful within this relationship. (you call it "compromise", but in fact, you are sacrificing your own happiness for his)

I am NOT saying he is not a nice man.
I am saying that this man is not right for you.
I am also saying you have fallen into a trap of your own making.

Your "giver" has been running the show.
Making sacrifice after sacrifice in order to please this man.
Have you learned from MB how sacrificing will result in an incompatible and unhappy lifestyle?

If you date him further, stop making any sacrifice and attempt to POJA.
You make decisions that affect both of you (like a restaurant, recreational activity, etc) based on mutual enthusiasm.

If YOU are not really and truly enthusiastic about the decision, guess what?

YOU are ruining the relationship with dishonesty !!!

Guess what?


He's right!!!
You are not enthusiastic about him.
You want him to be different.

Nice to see you back on MB.

I suggest that you .... READ THIS THREAD .

Pay particular attention to the POJA part of the discussion.

Milkshake,

Spend some time reading at www.baggagereclaim.com. I think it will help you realize this guy is not for you and you need to go no contact with him. He is emotionally unavailable and quite selfish. He wants your world to revolve around him.

Thanks KayC and maritalbliss...

I admit it, I am very weak. I tend to cling, I know it sounds pathetic but I do. Maybe because I do not have family in this country. I am very afraid of being alone. And this is not to say that I feel I will not be able to find someone else anymore. I am afraid of breaking something I/we have, especially if it�s something my son and I are accustomed to; because it is like my �family� in this country and giving it up requires significant courage on my part.

I am scared of starting over. I doubt that I can find someone I would fall in love with again, because it is extremely difficult for me to fall in love, it takes a very long time for me to �develop� love�., I rarely just instantly fell in love in the past. Typically guys asked me out, I would date, dates became relationships and then gradually I fell in love with them. Often I felt there was a timing mismatch, as they were really in love with me earlier on when I was not, and later on I became attached to them but by then they were not that much into me anymore.

BF and I have invested nearly 5 years in our relationship � really, do I want to throw that away? At the same time, I know the downside risk of it. BF did not want to break up with me but has many concerns when it comes to marriage. If I contact him and we start talking and meeting again�., we will just continue what we had, and will not live together or marry. Can I really live with it? Some days I feel yes I can, some days I feel, wow, it will be very painful.

I know all of you share the same view: BF and I are not compatible and we are not good together. But I keep coming back to the idea - no one is perfect, we obviously like each other and attracted to each other, why can't we make it work?

He never really had LT relationships before, I believe the longest prior to ours was just 2 years or so. I know I should not be wasting my time analyzing him, but the fact he has never been married before and did not really have many long-term relationships, nor living with someone together, maybe he is afraid of the life-changing commitment, as anyone in his shoe might be? Maybe he needs to be convinced that we have a good thing going on here?

I almost know though what you guys will say about above, as that is something I would say to my friends if they are in my situation. I understand in my head, it is another story when it comes to your heart.

But honestly � IF there is a way to make this work, from that standpoint � what would YOU do? Thanks for your wise inputs, I REALLY appreciate it!

Do not marry him under any circumstances.
Do not live with him under any circumstances.
If you continue to date him, you must accept his behavior 'as is' and not hope for anything better.
No complaining once you accept him 'as is'.

Sounds dismal to me.
But, I am not you.

How's that working so far?

Oh,I didn't realize your responses, thanks Pepperband and Brits_Brat.

Wow, I just read your recommended thread on POJA. It's so powerful. It's interesting as my BF said "good relationships should come more naturally if we feel that we are making efforts, then that's wrong", but it clearly says "you need to make mutual efforts to have a wonderful relationship". I did tell him at that time even though I did not know about this POJA - that every successful marriage/relationship takes efforts; people do make efforts they do not just come naturally or effortlessly. He actually agreed with me despite what he had said earlier.

Brits_Brat, I could not open up your link, it's being blocked here at work - I will check it out later at home.

I know you guys make total sense. I, despite all the whining above, know that. It's the weak part of my heart comes and whispers I need to talk to him....

Ah...................not well

Believe it or not, this made me LOL

Lemme tell you about my past.
I dated one BF for 14 years ( FOURTEEN !!! ) before I dated my H.
I did my very best "audition" so that BF would want to marry me.
I waited.
I auditioned some more.
I tried to fix him.
I tried to fix myself.
I waited some more years.
In the 14th year, he came over to where I was living.
Sad-puppy face. Sighing deep sighs. Pensive.
He pulled out his 3 carat diamond ring his granny had left him.
He says to me:

"I've been carrying this around for a week trying to ask you to marry me. Something is stopping me from asking. I just can't."

I heard the door close (FINALLY) on my expectations and my hopes and my constant auditioning for that relationship.

After FOURTEEN FREAKING YEARS .... he still said "I just can't".



It was a freaking RELIEF!
I was not sad.
I was not angry.
I was just DONE.
It was such a relief.

We spent a pleasant few hours together.
When he was leaving, I told him it was "over". I was "finished". Not to call me.
I was no longer interested in a relationship with him.

In other words, I said a final "Good-bye".

And the rest is history.

I've been married 30 years to my H, BTW.

Again, Pepperband, you have way too many powerful stories.....

I felt that I wasted my time trying to repair my marriage (even though I am glad I have grown as a person as a result) with my XH, and then now I feel I had wasted another 5 years. This is so depressing.

Hey, 5 ain't so bad.
Try looking back on 14 years of auditioning without landing the part !

DOH !

Milk,

The rest of my story is pretty weird.

The old BF stalked me off and on after I was married.
He showed up at my work one time with a single red rose.
"Can I take you to lunch?"
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


We went to highschool together.
On the 20th reunion, he comes to where I am sitting (once I am alone) he sits and says to me:

"I should have married you when I had the chance."

I was FURIOUS !

I unleashed some atypical rage on him right there

" You had your chance. I am grateful to God that we never married. You would cheat on me like you did when we dated. We would be divorced."

I got up and left.

I knew he wanted to date me while I was married.
Because, marriage held no real value to him.
He dated many married women during those 14 years I wasted trying to audition.

He died a few years ago.
I felt nothing for him.
I felt badly for his elderly mother.
But him?
Nada.

Your BF does not value marriage.
It's a fact.

But you can't MAKE him do anything. That's where your relationship stalls. The sad fact is that he doesn't WANT to make it work.

These are the words of a lazy person. Wouldn't you rather be with a man who says "I love you so much that I want to work with you to make the greatest marriage ever!" They ARE out there.

I am always amazed at the people who get married and think they can just kick back and relax without having to do anything else. The wedding is just the beginning.

You have gone through some experience Pep. I am glad you did not waste your 15th year with him and married your husband You made it sound like it was a piece of cake, but I am sure cutting your old BF out completely from your life was difficult as hell...after 14 years!!! You guys essentially grew up together since high school.... Hat off to you for your courage Pep.

I know this reverse psychology where once you feel you have lost something, you want it very badly..., my XH was so adamant on divorcing, he blamed me for his stress from work, drug use, sex addiction, arrest, etc., even though his own family and counselor have told him they were his own issues. But when he approached me by saying "maybe I can consider reconciliation" (yes, it was like that, very arrogant, he assumed I was still there waiting for him), I told him it was too late..., he started calling every day, sometimes like 15 times a day, crying over the phone. I felt so sad that he did not feel bad about destroying our family sooner. What a waste.

I don't want to do the same with my BF..., if my dragging the whole thing would only make things worse, meaning he just wants to hang out without committment, I do not want to. I don�t want to waste time anymore. But at the same time, I want to recognize some differences here � my BF never cheated on me like your old BF or my XH. He has never used drugs or anything, and he also wants to be married and have his own kids.

So I think our problem is, yes, he is chickened out about getting married, that is true and same as your BF, but that's not because he just wants to be a freeloader and date without commitment. I think he is concerned that the marriage will not work out. He has told me that he is concerned that I might get bored if I marry him, as he is not so social, he is more introvert, and I have many friends, I may like doing things he does not care about. He is concerned that I may find the way he spends weekend boring once we starts living together.

He may be selfish when it comes to his 'wishes'...., he wants to choose the place to live, the type of house, what kind of 'hobby' we as a family should be engaged in, and vacation spots...., but I've noticed sometimes he realizes that he might be pushing something I may not be so crazy about, and asks "what do YOU want to do?", so I want to believe that he is at least trying to be reasonable.

My problem is that we like each other, we are attracted to each other, I respect his intelligence and hard-working nature, and he respects my intelligence and being a good mother. But he has many concerns about marriage, and as a result cannot commit to marriage.

Given all of the above, would you still say "cut him out" of my life?

Oops, I cross posted with maritalbliss.

Yes, if he says he does not want to 'work' on it, then I am at the dead end. But I see some signs that he is willing to change a bit - he gives an impression of being cold, and I have pointed it out in the past (for example when my basement got flooded, all I wanted to hear was "it is going to be okay", but I heard "well there is nothing you can do"), and the other day when I called him regarding the humidifier, I could tell he was trying to be more sympathetic by asking me questions, etc. Also, he was never good at just 'talking' on the phone so he would not call or if he calls, he talks about whatever he needed to say (what time should we meet, where do you want to go, there is xxx event going on, etc.), and that is it. He never does sweet talk, never have chit-chat with me, but since we are 'taking a break', I can tell he is making an effort to try to hold longer conversation.

I sound desperate, don't I? Yikes.

Like I said ....


Do not marry him under any circumstances.
Do not live with him under any circumstances.
If you continue to date him, you must accept his behavior 'as is' and not hope for anything better.
No complaining once you accept him 'as is'.

He has not asked you to marry him. After 5 years.
He has failed his marriage material audition.

If YOU don't want to get married, then date him.

Please, please, please, go read at www.baggagereclaim.com for a while and, then, come back and try and convince us you should stay with this loser. You are trying to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse and it isn't going to happen. You have an emotionally unavailable man on your hands and he's not going to change - at all.

BTW, the sixth paragraph of your second to last post, above, starts out, "My problem is we like each other...." That's what YOU said...."like". You did not say love, you said "like." Freudian slip?

Yes.

I'm sorry.

Wow, overwhelming votes for "NO". No one is playing a devil's advocate eh.......

I cannot open the link for www.baggagereclaim.com now, but will check it out later.

Thanks for your feedback Pepperband, markos, Brits_Brat, and kerala. I may appear to be �not� getting your points, but I do, it�s just that my heart is rejecting to accept them�..

I think the devil's advocate would say "sure, keep dating him, maybe in another 5 years he'll stop yelling at you and disappearing every weekend. Wouldn't life be grand then?"

Seriously, you already know my answer, but you seem intent to keep trying with him, so I hope it works out for you.

I'll try to avoid posting to you in the future on this particular guy, because you appear to only want us to agree with your course of action, and I cannot do that in good faith.

AGG

Thanks AGG. I appreciate your honesty. I am not only searching for views that support mine, I just want to try to see this from many different perspectives, as everyone is different, each case has some unique factors, and I did not want to conclude there are only "yay" or "nay", two categories. I wanted to see if there is gray zone which was experienced by others, and how they have responded to such situation.

I read the articles on www.baggagereclaim.com, very very interesting. They sure make you think. I need to read more on this...

milkshake --

All the time you are spending "hoping" for him to change is wasted. You are passing up the time you could be using to find the RIGHT person.

Time is precious.

Thanks Lexxxy, it is so true. I started to see things in a right mind. I was in denial, trying to NOT see things that have been obvious, just because I am getting older and just because we have invested 5 long years.

I studied investor behavior science while at graduate school - how many rational people have hard time letting go 'money losing securities', as they do not want to admit that they made a mistake. So rather they try to hold on to the loss, hoping one day the investment will be in gain again. It's like that - I do not want to admit that I was stupid enough to continue this for 5 long years, so I have been trying to turn this investment to 'black'...

If I continue, I will end up losing more of my precious time, yes������ as all of you have told me.

You asked what we would do...
Knowing what I know now, I would go no contact and not look back. I would rather be alone than in a bad relationship. All a bad relationship does is cut your options and make you miserable. I am alone now and it's not so bad!

You mentioned sounding desperate. Yes, you do. Change that. Needy and desperate is a turnoff for most people. Learn to value yourself more. Enjoy the time with your son. You are teaching him...the question is, "What are you teaching him?" Try teaching him that a good relationship is worth waiting for. Teach him it's okay to be alone. Teach him to value himself. Teach him his mother is a strong person that will make it with or without someone in her life. Teach him to be choosey. Teach him it's not okay for a man to yell at a woman and her little boy. Teach him you'll place him and how he's treated ahead of some abusive man. Expand your world, join something, meet parents of your child, go to church, volunteer somewhere, have a block party, make friends. Then you won't feel so alone.

I totally get this as it is a large part of the reason I stayed married to my now XH. I just didn't want to admit it was a mistake. One of my biggest regrets is staying as long as I did.

And I agree with Kay below....stop sitting around waiting for him. Get out and live with your son.

It's been a while, it feels a lot longer since last time I posted. To be honest, it has not been that easy, although sometimes it does not feel all that hard. I am here just to thank you all, you guys were so right, my BF just did not have intention to have the lifetime commitment. Who knows, maybe that's why he has never been married before. Thanks for trying to put some sence in my hard head

((milkshake))

It will get better - promise.

We want you to be happy...he is not the way. I've been there, it took me way too long to learn those painful lessons. It seems with the wrong guy, the harder you try and more you give/do for them, the more they view you as needy and desperate. You're not, you need to know that and keep in mind what a wonderful woman you are and all of the great qualities you have. You'll make it fine with or without a man in your life. When you view yourself in a healthy way, they will treat you better and you'll attract a better quality guy.

Oddly enough, though, when my late husband and I were together, we couldn't do enough for each other! It's just how we both were, we love and cared for each other so much and it was very mutual, we couldn't out give each other. But I guess that's cuz we went together so well.

Thanks for the hug kerala, I can really use one..., and kayc, thanks, as always, for your kind words.

The truth is, I don't even know what I want. That is the problem. And I know why that is the case. Because I am scared. I am not scared of 'not' finding someone else, but of 'finding' the special someone, the 'right' one...

For instance, I hear/see others struggle with mans with their kids from the previous marriages. Because the schedules tend to be busier, of course, and many women feel that they are not the priorities. Or I hear/see others complain about their husbands/boyfriends being too busy at work and not spending enough time. And of course I see many who get hurt by their partners' affairs.

If I can be completely honest here - one of the 'additional' reasons I am still attracted to my BF (or ex BF) is the fact he does not have his own kids and (maybe that's why) he truly developed genuine love towards my son. Of course I have friends (women and men) who love and treat my son like their own, whether they are married/unmarried with or without kids, so in my head I understand that it could happen again with other man. However, statistically speaking, divorcees' second marriages with kids are much more likely to fail.

I know how damaging it can be to have a step parent and/or step siblings, based on my experience with my XH. He and his siblings suffered greatly because they were raised by their step mom and she treated her own daughters much better.

These things very much scare me. Which tends to make me feel desperate (although I haven't really contacted him, and even when we had communication, I never talked about us since the last talk, and we talked about business, economy, politics, etc., so I do not believe I gave the impression of being desperate). At the same time, I did notice that guys who have been married and have kids have certain maturity that single men do not have.

I know no one can predict what would happen in the future, you just need to believe in yourself and your future and God that things will work out and you need to move on. It's just every time I hear others' stories (those that did not work out) b/c of the spouses' ex's and/or kids, it discourages me, and it make me realize that with BF, I at least would not have had those issues...

How do you manage such fear? 50% of marriages ends in divorce. As a divorcee, my odd would be even higher. If I marry someone who has also been divorced, the chance is...... Very, very scary.

...and I also realize how my BF might have felt with us, since my priority has been my son when we are together.

Those are real concerns, but you can't "settle" because he has a few good qualities if he's not right for you...and he's not. There are men out there that would not only treat your son well but love him for who he is and because he is your son...my late husband was wonderful to my kids, they both still miss him and talk about him. They exist...you just have to meet the right one and don't settle for the wrong one before you meet him!

Hey Milkshake!
I think you are on the right track. As others have said there is no reason to "settle." As Thomas Edison said of his 500 failed experiments when developing the lightbulb "I have been successful 500 times in finding way NOT to invent a lightbulb."
I think you should focus some time on the EN questionairre and get a good sense for the things you're looking for -- the things you feel will be important to you in a relationship. Then date with those things in mind. When one exhibits signs of not having those qualities (or, let's say he's not a good conversationalist, when IC might be a EN of yours), then you simply move on.

As I read a long time ago: "if you don't know what you want you're sure to find it." or something like that. You get my point, hopefully. BTW I like your moniker but it always makes me a little hungry.

opt

Thanks KC and Opt. I certainly would like to see my 'trials and errors' in relationships as a way to invent something meaningful and have the true (literally) 'aha!' moment

OK, here is my confession. My friends have been urging me to just get out and go out to see other guys. So I did. Some are very intelligent, successful, kind hearted, genuine, passionate, romantic, etc., etc, but I am not physically attracted to. Some are sexy, handsome, I am very much attracted to, but I know they are not very good marriage materials.

Throughout my dating history, I noticed something. I tend to be attracted to the 'wrong' type guys. Just look at my XH! He is cute, tall, romantic, etc., etc., but had major issues and his life was full of lies. My most recent XBF. He is also very tall, handsome, but not very warm hearted and everything has to be in his way, so again, not a very good marriage material.

I went out with those who I believe would make a great husband and father. They are very nice and sweet, and I respect them so much. But I am just not attracted to them! What is wrong with this picture? Then there is this guy, who is so wrong, he is tall and good looking and sexy...., but I know I should not be with him.

My head and heart are not in sync. Why am I attracted to the wrong kinds? I want to be happy, but my heart always directs me to the wrong kinds who will make it harder to have a happy and healthy relationship/marriage with.

At the same time, I am the kind of person who develops love gradually, and except for 2 relationships I had in the past, my relationships including marriage always started out as the guy pursuing me, and initially I was not interested much but then later on I became very fond of and fell in love with them. So I wonder I should just keep dating those whom I may not be too attracted to initially... Physycal attractiveness of the partner is usually a big thing for guys, I wonder why this has to be a big thing for me, I am a woman...

My GF said to me "if you just want to be with a nice, smart, and caring person, why can't you be with your girlfriends? The reason it has to be a guy is because there is sexual attractiveness too, so if I were you, I cannot date someone I am not sexually attracted to", which kind of made sense to me. But if I follow my heart, I have a feeling I would not be able to have a happy, healthy and long-lasting relationship....I felt hopeless.

Can you change your taste for guys? Maybe it's hard for guys to do, I know it's a lot more visual for men, but for women you would think with experience their tastes may be able to change...

Nothing wrong with physical attraction being a major EN for you. This is not a problem.

You need to see and detach from the idea of being with someone who is not emotionally available (which is a pattern from your childhood by the way) and move towards the partnership idea. Focus instead on how nice it would be to be cherished. Meet people with an open mind, maybe try Match.com?

The "project" or "fixer-upper" guy is what attracts you.

Your response illustrates my point -- identify your most important EN's. One might be PA.
It is for me. I've been criticized by my family for this "you married good looks first and look how that turned out..."
However, my new GF NatureGirl is very pretty. She's thin and in shape, and her skin is magnificent. You know why? Because she respects herself. She doesn't drink, eat junk, drink soda; she's physically active. Guess who else strives for these things? ME. So it's just another thing we have in common, and that's good for a relationship, IMV.

I can see why Harley calls Physical Attractiveness a legitimate physical Emtional Need. There's no reason to change your tastes.

opt

Ooooh. That's really good advice. I think I'll look at that, too.

I made a top ten list. It is how I was able to extricate myself from a 'wrong' relationship (post divorce) and find the right one after that.

Questions for ladies -

How quickly do you get really excited about your new date and feel 'in love'? Do you know immediately "this is it!"? Maybe except for when I was young, like in college, I never had this instant 'click' many people talk about. It takes a long time for me to fall in love. Does this happen to any of you?

Questions for gentlemen -

When do you feel 'loved' by your spouse or girlfriend? Is there such thing as you are very attracted to the lady, respect her, care about her, enjoy her company, look forward to seeing her, but feel not loved and therefore cannot love that person?

I ask these questions because I'd better learn from my experience and mistakes. My relationships had always started out where I was being pursued by the guy, and I was never really crazy about the person at the beginning, like I said, when I was in college, this was not the case, I fell in love with my boyfriend first, but that's a long time ago

The problem is this timing mismatch - because they pursue, I was not really in it in the initial stage; they felt they were not loved by me. Then I would fall in love with them after I got to really know them and comfortable with them. But I feel very bad during the time when I was not so crazy about them, and also ended up feeling bad because by the time I became crazy about them they are sort of already 'checked out'.

There have been some guys who have been asking me out. Some I have no interest nor see any future together so have told them I was not interested. Some are nice; meeting some of my key 'must have'-needs-list. I have gone out with them, but I'm not clicking. I don't want to just judge after just one date, so I went out several more times with two completely different types. But I am still neutral. They are now increasingly asking more of my time, and I find myself feeling it is a bit of a 'choir' to do this. At the same time I know a big part of the reason I feel this way is because I still have feelings for my XBF, so I am desparately trying to kill them by going out with different people (including girls too). But I still have this empty feeling when I am with new dates. I feel bad, I think this is not fair for them either.

I know I have been trying to not talk about my xBF, but I keep missing him. Maybe because it's gone so I feel I want it more? I hope not, but I still wish things could have worked out. My xH, xBF, and some other men who once loved me, all said that they did not feel they were my priority. They are right, I guess, as I prioritize my son, but for things I feel as a mother I should be doing so. So far, my feeling is that no men want to feel they are not the number one on my list.

They are, but they are not. I need to protect my son, provide for my son, and make sure he feels loved and grow up healthy so that he would not do things my XH did since he never felt that he was loved by his step mom when he was little.

But then guys I was with felt I did not care about them as much. I mean, I praise my men just as I do for my son. I cook very nice gourmet meals for them just as I do for my son. I show lots of affection (hugging, kissing, holding hands, etc.) just as I do so for my son. Maybe I'm not thinking about my men as much as I am thinking of my son, but I cannot help it - but I know people can tell I'm talking about my son a lot.

Is that such a big crime? Is it so bad for men? Please, I would like to hear both sides of honest opinions on this. Thanks!

I haven't had a date since the early 1980s, so I'm not sure about all that. It seems to me that it OUGHT to take some time. If you have fluttery feelings when you don't know anything about the guy isn't that just lust/physical attraction?



Maybe you need to take some time off from dating. It takes time to recover from a broken relationship.

My divorce was final in March and I'm not looking to date yet. I'm going to wait until it's been a year. A couple of months ago I was really eager to get out there and start dating, but some things happened that made me a little more cautious. As time goes on, I'm getting past that frantic desire to find a man. Now, I'm thinking more about how to find the RIGHT man.

I suggest studying the EN questions. Then when you go into a date(s) you can begin to ask the questions to the guy. You may be seeking men who have a low FC, and that is why there is this mismatch. If you can find a man with a higher FC, then you may have more of a connection.

What you are observing here is not the process of falling in love which always takes at least six months but the infatuation's chemical shortcut that says 'this is someone special, pay attention'. That process is an instant two way feeling and there is no reason at all why you should not feel just as much swept off your feet by it at 60 as at 15.

If you are not feeling any fireworks you might just not have met the right person or you are not emotionally available. This might be because you are afraid to put yourself out there or because you are involved with someone already. You might have to push yourself a bit, that's what I did and then my knees failed in one look when the right man came along.

There can be an instant "clicking" and there can be an instant attraction, not to be confused with love, which takes time to grow as you get to know each other. Men who would expect head over heels from you instantly are either egotistical, immature, or just don't have a clue, either way, I wouldn't worry about it.

It wasn't that long ago that you were in your relationship. I would give it time to get over him before moving on to the next person. As I said before, focus on your son and also yourself. Develop new interests (besides men) and enjoy your life, you have plenty of time...

Thanks guys, I know my emotions are still vulnerable. I do have busy career as well as other interests which can occupy my time (thank goodness!), of course along with activities with my son, and lately I have not been obsessed with my XBF.

It just so happened that yesterday my son had his first basketball game, and my XBF just showed up out of blue. Honestly, I thought it was nice of him. But then I got confused, is he doing this just to make the transition smooth and easy for my son? And that thought paralyzed me. I had to call and ask him that while it was very nice of him to show up to support my son, I needed to know if he was doing so just for the sake of my son, or if he had intention of getting back with me.

He said I have many wonderful qualities and am beautiful and among all the women he had ever been with, he had never met anyone to whom he was more attracted than me. YET, he said, he never felt he was my priority and therefore he cannot love me. Also he said my playing golf with him he felt that I was doing him a favor.

Yes, despite 'taking a break' status, it really hurt me. So I told him that then we should just move on. But it really hurts. He cannot love me! After all of these years! Then why did he stay with me for 5 years???

Anyway, till yesterday's incident, I was doing relatively OK...., it was a setback. It was totally unexpected that he showed up (he knew of the schedule since way back when he talked to my son he had asked him about his basketball game schedule).

Maybe I will just stay single for the rest of my life..., I feel like no matter what I do, men may always feel shortchanged.

Maybe it's not you, maybe it's just this one with you. I would tell him to please not keep coming by, that you and your son need a clean closure, because like you said, it sets you back, and it may be hard on your son too.

Hi, Milkshake. You know what, I think Kay is on to something. I bet it's not really you, it's the combination of you and the men.

I read two books on compatibility. One of them talked about how people's need for emotional intimacy varies. Some people need a lot of togetherness time, telling each other everything, they need pretty constant demonstration that they are important. Other people feel smoothered and clausterphobic with that kind of depth.

Maybe you would have better permenant results with a man who didn't need that constent emotional togetherness.

It turns out, I'm pretty independent. I like a lot of personal space. I told a friend of mine that I tend to put up walls when someone gets too close to fast. She laughed and said not only did I build a big brick wall, I dug a moat around it.

So for me, a man who gets emotionally up close too fast, or for too long, or is too intense, that feels very scary and wrong to me.

Mike, my late husband, was like me, only probably more so. He was also really good at reading people. So, we were a good match in that way. However, our relationship was very slow in the beginning. There wasn't the rush I had normally found so exciting, and it took a long time to get to know him. Even now, I don't think I knew him as well as I would have liked.

I know none of this makes you feel any better now. But, it can be food for thought.

Milkshake,

I know it is hard breaking up with someone, but the best way to do it is like yanking off a bandaid - do it quickly. Don't linger in the neither here nor there territory of "taking a break" or being confused. And like kay said, tell him to stop showing up where he knows he'll find you.

Thanks KC, GG and AGG. I love the analogy of the Band-Aid AGG, how did you know that I was one of those who peels it off slowly rather than yanking off at once? LOL. Yup, it's better off to be done with. Now I come to think of it, my son has the same trait - he is soooooo scared of any pain, I hope he will not in the future run into the same type of problems as mine...yikes.

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone, for the first time ever, I'm hosting it at my place tomorrow, even though my son will be with his dad. I'm excited about it. On this year's Thanksgiving eve, I am very thankful for everything I have, my son, family, health, job, and people around me including you guys who have supported me throughout my tough time and given me sincere advice.

A book title comes to mind, "He's Just Not That Into You".

Seriously, I will never understand the incessant desire to "work" on a relationship.

If it is good, then it is effortless and doesn't feel like work. It just flows. It flows because both parties accomodate each other's needs.

But if you sit there and expend tons of mental energy trying to figure out why he won't call, then he's not worth the effort and neither is the relationship.

But my biggest question to you is this: Why put your son through the back and forth drama? Why not focus on HIM and not on some guy you're dating?

I say this as a man who made his current wife wait 7 months before ever introducing the kids to her.

I don't want drama in their lives.

I suggest you make your 9 year old your priority and quit worrying about a boyfriend who doesn't care about you. Your son will be out of the house in 9 short years.

A good man will accomodate you and your son and respect both.

Thanks to all of you, you guys really give me lot of comfort and courage.

I came down with a cold, probably from lack of sleep as I entertained guests every day for five days of last week. It was a lot of fun, a great way to keep myself busy and distract myself from relationship thoughts, but I guess I did too much

I hope all of you had a very nice Thanksgiving!

Guests every day for five days?! You're a goddess. I'd say saint, but saints don't have super powers.

You are so funny GG. No, no goddess or saint, just a stubborn lady who is determined to keep our house not empty for my son and myself Though, yes, I definitely don't have any super power, my throat was killing me all of this time when I was pretending everything was okay!!

Pepperband mentioned "auditioning" for marriage.

Your situation is like you are director who wants to put on musicals. Your boyfriend is an actor who doesn't sing or dance.
Plays are great. Musicals are great. But you end up putting on plays so that your BF is happy instead of the musicals you really want. He is not a bad person. You are not a bad person. But what he wants and what you want are just different so why try to keep making the other person fit?

Thanks wannabophim. It's been a while. I wanted to post, but writing sometimes makes me think of my situation more and I have been staying away from the board.

My mom was in town so that helped ease the pain, but still, it was the first Christmas in a long time that my xBF wasn't around. Yet, he called and wanted to stop by to drop off presents for my son, and (yeah, you guys would have told me NOT to) he came over on Friday and had dinner with us. He took my son out to the park and played with him - my son wanted me to join, but I said no, as I had to cook (which was half true but mostly I didn't think I should create a fake family-like moment). He bought tickets to a Globetrotter's game/show and asked if he could take my son out this coming Friday. This was a while ago. I know, I should have 'no contact' in place, but it's so hard...., I said yes, but purposely asked him to go to the 2pm show instead of 7pm he was originally thinking. My thinking was that if he chose 7pm, somehow I would feel more lonely and also my son may feel more 'special' about this event, but if it's during the day, since I would be working anyway, my son would have to go to a childcare and he would prefer going to see the game. Anyway, he bought 3 tickets and said that my son can invite someone; it would be more fun for him. Of course my son asked if I could go with them, but I told him no. I invited my son's best friend so that two boys can have fun. But deep down it's making hard for me because I am feeling like I could have gone....

I read a part of the interview of Demi Moore. She said her biggest fear is that she feels 'not worth to be loved'. She is beautiful and powerful and successful. But this is her fear. Because she was betrayed by both of her husbands.

I can totally relate to that. My X-husband betrayed me multiple times, and it left a huge scar. So even though I remember being affectionate and loving towards my x-BF, and he was very much attracted to me, the fact he could not committ makes me feel that I am 'not worth' being loved. They can say all the compliments in the world to me, that I am a nice person, beautiful, gorgeous, sexy, a great mother, smart, successful, great cook, athletic, etc., etc. In the end, my marriage failed and my boyfriend did not want to marry me.

It is not a good place to be. It hurts tremendously, and I honestly do not know what to do about it. Because as I say, it really does not matter how other people say great things about me, the fact is that I am not successful in the relationship arena. Maybe God is telling me I am not suited for marriage.

Does anyone feel this way too?

I don't think God is trying to tell you that. Perhaps it's the self esteem issue getting in the way? If, inside, you don't feel worthy of being loved, your partner senses it and subconsciously agrees. At the very minimum, confidence is very appealing to others, and beating yourself up is sort of the opposite of that. 'Knowing' you're not worthy of being loved is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, it seems.

BTW, if you figure out a great solution to those feelings, please share it. A lot of us could use the help, too.

FOTL, I understand what you mean. Strangely, when I just met someone, b/c I am not into him yet, usually I am not needy and priorities my personal life including going out with my girlfriends, attending work functions, etc., he would pursue me so hard. And when we establish a relationship, I become dependent on him emotionally, I would cancel my outings with my girlfriends, etc., and I am sure he senses that and i start to feel distance and then I cling more, which prob pushes him away more. It's a vicious cycle. Then I get complaints like those from my XH and XBF that I did not care about them, I provide much love to my son...., so I tried more to pay attention and show affection, which somehow never really worked. It seems very contradictory.

Also, I wonder if I have been depressed. I noticed I have been very irritable and yell at my dear son a lot. I really want to know what it is that God is trying to teach me or provide. I have been in this hurtful journey for a long time and I still do not feel He will rescue me any time soon.

Self esteem. Ah yes. Mine when it comes to relationships, it went very low and is staying low for quite some time. I used to think as long as I have many friends who truly love me and think I am a great friend to them, and also guys find me attractive and wonderful, then I can get the self esteem back...., so wrong. Because romantic relationships are different. But I wonder why I can have so many terrific friendships when I tend to fail on romantic ones with guys.

When I figure that out, I may get a step closer to the solution...hopefully.

Milkshake, Look within to develop your esteem instead of looking outside of yourself and you will develop it. It'd be good to have a break from trying to find a relationship and concentrate on being present and happy in the moment. Yelling at your son could be a symptom of your unhappiness. If you are feeling depressed, see a doctor and get some recommendations on how to best deal with it. You've been through a lot, it will take some time for the inner healing...

KC, you always have a very strong insight. That's a great point. I need to build my esteem within instead of looking for outside validation. But I don't know how.

I have always been 'validated' by good grades and report cards when I was in school. Neighbors, teachers and my friends always 'validated' that I was good. I felt I 'accomplished' my goals by winning whatever sports I was playing and winning awards on my art. I have been 'validated' by getting promotions at work and getting calls from headhunters for bigger positions.

If none of the above happened, I am sure I would be feeling worthless, which I KNOW wrong and not true. Because we are all supposed to be loved, treasured, and appreciated. But that's just in my head. My heart would not agree if I don't get any outside validation.

The same goes for relationships. The more guys pursue me and beg to go out or to have relationships with me or to want to marry me, the greater I felt my 'value' was, again, even though my head knows that is an unhealthy thinking. Thus, the complete opposite is true too. If those 'validations' withdraw, I feel my value declined.

I thought I was lacking the spiritual side, and participated on weekly Bible study sessions, read a lot of books, meditated, etc., but then I see 'injustice' in life where those selfish, irresponsible and dishonest people who hurt others in order to pursue their own selfish pleasure get everything they want. Those who got hurt and betrayed have an extremely hard time getting back on their feet and life is never the same for them, and of course, they do NOT get everything they wish for. So I felt hopeless even spiritually.

I am glad I have a great career, hobby, and my son that allow me to forget all of the dark thoughts even just for a moment each day. I am very thankful that I am healthy. It's just that feeling great about yourself and your future seems very difficult WITHOUT outside validation (which I think I am using as a 'judge') and WITHOUT justice (God is being judge here).

Did you develop esteem within WITHOUT outside validation? How did you do that?

Oh Milkshake, my heart goes out to you! I totally understand. In our society, we have learned to rely on outside validation, but it is SO IMPORTANT to know what we know is true and do what we do FOR OURSELVES.

I grew up in a home with an alcoholic father and a certifiably nuts mother that was very abusive. I didn't get anything I needed from my parents. It took me well into my adulthood to learn and change my perceptions and act accordingly...most of my learning and development has come in my 50s, incidentally, those have been the "hardship years" of my life.

My son is one of those people who was just born wonderful. He was as perfect a child as anyone could hope for. He got straight A's in school, graduated valdictorian of his class, served in the Air Force, Staff Sargent Elect when he discharged. He's built a house, worked as a mechanic, was a Windmill company supervisor, and is currently enrolled in college with a double major in Computer/Science Engineering and Mechanical Engineering, straight A's and in Honors College. He's half way done and has done so debt free. He has saved himself for the girl of his dreams and waited for God to send the right person into his life and is now engaged to a wonderful girl that is very well suited with him. When he was a teenager, however, I remember him placing great pressure and stress on himself. Nothing he did seemed to be perfect enough to suit him. He was small and when he went out for football, many of the guys on the opposing teams were twice his size. I used to tell him we all bring our assets to the table, and without him tutoring his fellow team members, many of them wouldn't be there to make their touchdowns. He was a member of the team and very much needed with his reliability and wisdom. Backing up a bit, I remember his dad placing pressure on him to join football. After a year he elected to not participate the next year. When he was considering whether to go back to it the following year, I told him, "Paul, if you do this, you must do this for yourself. Not for your father, not for me, but for YOU!" I told him the same thing with regards to his schooling. I never paid my kids to get A's, I told them their learning was for THEM! It's taken him years, but my son has finally got it. He still wants A's, he still wants to achieve the honors, although he never wanted his awards flouted, but he realizes that the better he does, the better it will pay off for him in life and he wants to achieve his best FOR HIM.

I have been through some really hard things in life, esp. in the last 12 years. There were times it was hard to get up and face the world but I had to do so. Yet it was those really tough years where I had to learn to stand alone that really made a difference in my life. I hadn't realized it, but I had placed great importance on what others thought...and once that validation was removed, it was tough, I can't tell you how tough, but maybe it was the best thing that ever happened to me. When my kids' dad and I divorced after 23 years of marriage...we'd always been extremely involved in our church, and their support was quickly withdrawn and people who had always esteemed me, suddenly withdrew their support and I began receiving a deluge of hate mail and nasty phone calls. I got to where I hibernated, only coming out of my house to go to work, and even the stress I received there was hard to bear. My now XH took custody of the church and friends and I was alone. People I had worked with on every imaginable board and committee now cut me off. It was amazing. One day my son said, "Mom, don't you think it's about time you found another church?" and so the next Sunday I showed up at my new church. I can't say as I've ever gotten as close or as involved in my current church, the pain and scars of what transpired in my old one still affect me and make me much more cautious. But with all the whispering of a small town, I've had to learn to hold my head up and be true to myself. I determined I would not let "them" change who I was. I would continue to smile at them, continue to be myself, continue to believe in myself. I remember placing a sign above my office desk during this period that said "It's not who people believe you to be but who you ARE that is important." I glanced at it often. I have been hurt a lot in my life. If I believed that who I was was a summation of my failed relationships, I would be in deep trouble. I choose to take with me the lessons learned from each relationship, each job, each situation, regardless of the outcome of each.

There are little things you can do that can help you in this process. Tell yourself positive affirmations. Sit down and think of some and make a list, refer to it often. (I am a caring person. I try my best. I am honest. etc.) Try to make it about who you are rather than about looks or even intelligence which are something you had nothing to do with but are merely God's bestowing on you. I used to tell my son (he's a genius) that it's his character that impresses me, even more than his intelligence. I also taught him that God's blessing him with high intelligence was something He entrusted to him, and with it comes a high degree of responsibility, to give back to society with it, rather than laud it over others or think highly of himself because of it. With much blessing should come equal humility.

Another thing you can do is start by treating yourself with value and respect and caring. Treat yourself to a bubblebath, a special homemade breakfast, that concert you've been wanting to attend, even if you are alone...for you alone are worth it! We don't need someone else in our life to enjoy things with, someone else is just an added dimension, but not necessary for enjoying what is. I have had to learn this since I lost my late husband 6 1/2 years ago. I am no longer part of a couple, I am me, I have had to learn to value me as such. I don't need a man's eyes' appreciative glance to tell me if I look good. I can look in the mirror myself. I don't need a boss (who may be an idiot) to recognize my achievements...I need to do my best on my job and pat myself on the back and KNOW what a great job I've done to save the day, whether anyone else sees or recognizes it or not! We aren't always going to get recognition from outside sources. Sometimes we're a wonderful wife and our spouse leaves us. Sometimes we're a superb employee and our job is cut. Sometimes we're financially responsible and we lose our home. Sometimes we're a great parent our our child doesn't come around. Sometimes we're a great friend and our friend moves away. Life is not always fair. Deservedness doesn't always depict great outcome. Call it luck or call it divine providence, whatever your belief, it can seem rather random. Sometimes, though, just sometimes it might be that we are picked for hard places because Someone wants a greater dimension for us that comes from those experiences. And sometimes walking through those hard places is so hard, so painful, but we discover there are silver linings to clouds. And all of that is what makes us who we are.

Practice going to a movie alone. Practice going to a great restaurant alone. Put on some classical music and set a candlelight dinner and tablecloth just for you! Have a bubblebath, paint your nails, watch a great movie, take time to read the paper or a good book, take a drive in the country, buy yourself some roses. YOU are worth it and you don't need anyone else to tell you so!

I read the title, "1st Long Term Relationship After Divorce Went Sour", and my first thought?

Your first LTR after divorce is SUPPOSED to go sour. You sure as heck don't want to marry the first one.

Consider yourself a bullet-dodger.

Thanks KC for your kind and warm words. You have gone through a lot, and I know that is why you understand others' pain, which is a tremendous quality. I know there is always some 'good' that can also come out of sad/unhappy/upsetting events. Your son sounds wonderful. When I was reading your post, the first thing I thought was that "God gave this wonderful son to KC!"

I can't go see a movie or go to a fancy restaurant alone, I have never done so in my entire life! But that's an interesting suggestion... Actually I was planning on a nice & fancy vacation with my son, and my friends' family decided to join us. I know, if i continue to try, I can have fun without 'my man'.....

Krazy, you are too funny, your comment about me being a bullet-dodger made me laugh Thanks for lightening things up.

Sure you can, just do it! It may feel out of your comfort zone at first, but that's how we broaden our comfort zones. Bring a newspaper or people watch or just concentrate on the atmosphere and how wonderful the food is. When my husband passed away, I had a hard time going to church by myself, but I did it and now I'm used to it.

will give it a try! Hope you are having a good day KC.

I was supposed to clean out my bookshelves for my impending move...but the first good book I came to I sat down and started reading it.

LOL, well at least you got another use out of it! I am going to do some serious cleaning myself, but here I am, checking in on the MB site...

I took bubble bath over the weekend per KC's suggestion, which was wonderful, got together with my girlfriends, and did watch lots of movies by myself (no, I didn't go to the theater but I have Netflix at home)! Yay for me. So far, so good.

Then I went out with a guy for dinner. He is one of the guys whom I met several times two months ago. I did not feel the chemistry, even though he is wonderful - he is very sweet, generous, would never yell like my XH and X-boyfriend, is a great father, hyper smart and successful, appreciates me for who I am - so I had told him I would not be interested in meeting him again. He but thought about it and asked if we can still communicate to build a friendship with no pressure. I said I wasn't sure if it would work but we could try. He has not put any pressure since then, he has not asked to meet up for two months, yet emailed me every day to talk about work, world, kids, anything. He had called me several times but at that time I did not even want to resume phone conversations then he left me alone. Finally I got a bit more comfortable so I suggested we could meet this time.

He is a very nice guy, a world traveller (I love that because I have diverse background too), extremely mild temper, and is spiritual too. I am just not physically attracted to him unfortunately. But I have always been attracted to 'unavailable' type - whether emotionally or psychologically. These men are good looking but love themselves more than anyone else - so I decided that I would focus on his personality and intelligence this time. This is why I need to take a baby step, to see if we can just be friends first, if we can share laughter (which we do), build trust, etc. first. This was totally unexpected, but before we left he said he loved me. He said that I AM the quality woman he has been looking for and had mentioned even a 'family'.

I was flattered and WAS happy to hear it, because it shows his genuine interest in me, not just my look or financial positions (it may sound bizarre but some guys like successful women b/c of the financial benefits that come with it) but the whole package. At the same time I wonder why - my xBF could NOT say this 'L' words in 5 YEARS!!!

I know this goes back to the discussion of 'outside validation', but I have to wonder why..., everyone says the same thing about me, whether men or women, pretty much they know what I bring to the table as a person, as a friend, as a neighbor, as a mother, and as a woman/girlfriend. It's not like my X-BF sees something they do not see or vice versa. Yet he could not love me because I am not a golfer. Because my interests are different. �Love� then all of the sudden sounds very cheap and practical. Is that what it is? I am doing good most of the time, but I still have moments from time to time where I miss my X-BF. And it is sad to think that guys I am not interested in appreciate me but the guy I spent so much time together chooses NOT to.

OK, enough self-pity, time for me to go to my dance lessons!!!

Have you read the article here about how to choose a compatible mate? I love it.

I understand the concept of compatible mates. But if you are in love, would you quit it just because you have missed some of the 'check' boxes? If you do so beforehand, that's being very smart, but I just feel it's too cold to give up what you have just because you see unchecked boxes on your list..., you know what I mean?

Some things are "must haves".
Some are not.

When I divorced my XH after a horrid two year marriage, I made two lists...one list is dealbreaker stuff, the other is preferential. The preferential list is negotiable, the dealbreaker list is not. For instance, on my dealbreaker list I have "Christian, honest, no drugs, sense of humor, etc." On my preferential list "enjoys camping, riding motorcycles, etc." I enjoy motorcycles but can live without them. But I canNOT be with a cheating lying scumbag again!

Hurrah for the bubblebath! Gosh, this guy sounds wonderful!

I had extremely busy, physical, tiring, YET fun-filled and beautiful weekend. I am exhausted, even now many parts of my body aches, but it was GREAT that I did not have to dwell on any sad thoughts.

KC, yes, this guy is an extremely nice person, and for me, intelligence is a 'must-have' item on my list, so he has it more than any of the guys I have ever dated. My X-BF is well educated and very sharp too, but he was not well travelled so did not know much about different cultures, he tends to be narrow minded, which was a bit unfortunate aspect for me. Anyhow, this new guy is nice and smart, only if I can find him physically attractive, it would be perfect... I keep hearing physical attractiveness is more important for guys than us women, so I am hoping over time I wil not even remember I said what I said...

With my late husband, George, my soul mate, best friend, and love of my life...it wasn't physical attractiveness that first drew me, we were attracted initially from the heart, but our love grew to the extent that there is no one in the world that could compare with him and the attraction was sizzling. That was NOT my initial first thought upon meeting him though.

There are others who have said the opposite. My kids dad was probably more physically attractive, yet we never had that spark. He didn't treat me with love and tenderness though. I think how you interact makes a HUGE difference in whether or not you develop attraction. (Remember Beauty and the Beast?) Still, there are relationship experts that cite the physical pheromones as being an integral part of it. For myself, how you are treated plays in hugely.

How many guys have fallen for a physically attractive woman only to find that beauty is skin deep? I know widowers whose wives were ravaged with cancer and their love was immeasurable. So it can't all be chemistry or physical attraction.

The point is to not fall in love with someone who isn't compatible.

If you are already married, then of course take steps to make it work. If you are NOT married when you discover the incompatibility then consider that knowledge a gift and run away.

I never thought Valentine Day was THAT hard without my XBF. It is ridiculous, my life is not determined by him, yet I had to fight every single minute. I do miss him...

I have had the urge many times where I wanted to tell him "okay, you won! I don't care, we don't have to marry, I just want to be with you". But I haven't...I am fighting each day. Besides, I am not even sure now if HE wants to get back with me even without the marriage promise.

My son bought me the best rose bouquet at the store for Valentine Day. He is only 9, so obviously does not have much money yet insisted that he gets the best one for me. I wonder if he felt sorry for his mom without her boyfriend who always got me flowers...

I know all of you have told me to move on and close the deal with my BF. But..., I still have a feeling for him and am devastated this morning. I have an account at an online dating site, although right now I am not a member (but I still receive matches, it's just I cannot see the pics and also I cannot respond to any of those matches b/c currently I am not paying) - this morning I fir some reason decided to check it out. Then... Boom! My xBF showed up. He lied about his age by 2 years, but the same name and city, I knew it was him. I checked and surely it was him. So now he is officially looking for a GF. This devastates me. He still emails me and came to my son's basketball games, and I thought he still cared about us. That's why the fact he didn't even call or email me on Valentine's Day I was so sad.

I really want to talk to him.... I shouldn't be desparate, but that is how I feel. What should I do?

Milkshake,
I know how you are feeling, most of us have been there, but getting back with him is not the answer. He has moved on, you need to too. You are not defined by a man or having a man in your life, you are defined by YOU! Spend time on yourself, give yourself the gift of time, and when you are fully healed, you will be fully ready to embrace your NEXT BF. (((hugs)))

Tell him to stop coming to your son's games. Block his email address. Change your phone number. Realize that this guy is so scummy that he lies about something as basic as his AGE.

Read this blog.

http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/

Thanks KC and Kirby. But it was so hard on Valentine Day, clearly I still have feelings for him. I do miss him. But he may not be open to the idea of getting back together. If he says that to me, it will devastate me even more. I really can't take any more hurt.

Then staying completely out of contact with him is the right thing to do.

AGG

I know you guys will yell at me, but I have to be honest. I ended up calling my XBF and left a message saying that I miss and still love him. Next day (yesterday) I got an email from him but he was just talking about the nice weather, how my son and I should go out and have fun, blah blah blah.., basically nothing to do with my voicemail. So I took that as a statement he is only interested in staying friend with me and being involved in my son�s life but nothing more, which of course devastated me and I could not respond to his email pretending I was okay. All day we spent at my friend�s house yesterday to keep my mind occupied. When we came home, there was a phone message from XBF (he have never emailed and called in one day after we broke up in Sep � when we were together we talked several times a day). Very light and cheerful, almost joking message for both of us. Again, it had nothing to do with my phone message the night before.

XBF obviously cannot say yes he loves me too and wants to get back together. Yet he contacted me twice in one day, which never happened after we broke up, so he does not necessarily want to lose me either � he cannot make up his mind. That is how I interpreted. He is the kind of person who does not like to pursue much or initiate, he likes things to come to him. OK, whether that�s good or bad, but if I am the one who wants to get back together, I feel I should be doing the work. I don�t mind that. But, has he already made up his mind? I do not want to keep wasting my time, but at the same time I do not want to tell him NOT to contact me just yet. I am not ready�
Aside from regaining my inner/mental/emotional strength (I�m working on it!), what else can I do? There is a spring concert at my son�s school, which XBF always came. I want to invite him but only if he is open to us getting back together. Is that dangerous to ask him to come, IF and ONLY IF he is interested in getting back together?

I know I sound pitiful, I am very aware of that�. And I know you have told me to move on, 99.99% chance I know I would HAVE TO move on, the way XBF has been behaving...., but I would feel that I need to do this last time before giving up. If there is a 0.01% chance XBF is still willing to giving it another try, I would want that.

I cross posted with AGG. Thanks AGG, I know you made it clear that you believe moving on is the best way and otherwise you would not comment. I totally respect your opinion, and as I mentioned above, 99.9% of (even) my brain tells me that that is the right thing to do and ONLY thing I can do.

XBF knows I still love him. He still cares about me and my son, but not to the degree where he can make any type of committment. I realize that. He is in the power now. He knows I am not likely to go anywhere anytime soon. This will probably promote him even more to go out to see other girls, because he CAN.

This is why I feel that I should send the email to let him know that even though I still love him, I cannot be friends with him and if he is not interested in being my BF again, I would not want him to come to my son's spring program.

I am not sure if he noticed that I now know that he is online looking for someone else - I am not sure if I should let him know. Maybe that's none of my business now?

Milkshake.

It's very hard for people to be sufficiently brutal to get the message across to someone that they should move on. I would not read in anything into your XBF's response other than guilt.

I'm sorry. But if he wanted to be with you, he would be with you.

Nothing turns off someone who has already checked out of a relationship than the other person trying to resuscitate it. Even if he does allow himself to get enmeshed again, he will not be able to give you what you need.

Look. When I met my husband he was not ready for a long-term relationship. We dated for a year but it just didn't make me happy. We broke up. After some time, we became friends. After an even longer time, (like, 12 years!!!) we got married. He had changed. But NO WAY would that have happened had I hung onto him. It hurt like hell. I wanted to be in a relationship more than he did. Now he loves and wants to be with me every bit as much as I do. Because he's not the same person that he was 18 years ago.

I am NOT saying this will happen for you. I AM saying it will NOT happen for you RIGHT NOW. Not with this guy.

Thanks kerala, you make perfect sense and that's what I have been reading and hearing. Many times when you completely cut the rope, either (1) you break up (and it is painful....) yet meet someone who is better and willing to make the type of committment you want, or (2) your old love comes back and this time he is ready to make the committment.

I know this, but it's so hard to do when it is about myself. But okay, you just gave me some encouragement. I was writing the email I mentioned above, but I will hold off..... I think I am very afraid that he will meet someone online soon, and will hit off, at least initially, and he will completely forget about me. For me, even though other guys may be asking me out, I just do not feel ready so nothing really happens, but for guys, it's different and he can always welcome new sex and that can occupy him for a while...

Milkshake, I would not write any email to the XBF. He has absolutely no, zero, zilch, interest in being back together with you.

He apparently does enjoys occasional interactions with you, maybe saying hello or going to your son's concerts, which is why he pops into contact occasionally. But these interactions are extremely painful to you, because you keep hoping that maybe they are signs of him wanting to be back together with you. But they are not, and the sooner you accept that the better.

I actually don't think that your XBF is doing anything wrong, he is just leading his little life as he wants to, which is his prerogative. He is not leading you on, he is just being friendly. The problem is, you cannot be friends with someone that you want/need more from. It is an unbalanced and unhealthy relationship. To some extent, I have to give your XBF credit that he is not taking advantage of your neediness, that would be bad but not uncommon.

But the point is, you are the one here who is causing yourself pain. If this helps at all, I was dating a woman who put me in a situation similar to yours. Or I should say a woman with whom I placed myself in a situation similar to yours, because it was my choice to allow it. She kep leading me on that maybe some day things would progress between us, she just wanted time to decide. So I went all out to woo her, yet nothing ever developed. And every time I decided to back off, she'd call me, e-mail, invite me to do stuff. And I would think "wow, maybe she has changed, things will be better". But that never happened, she only called because she was bored or whatever. This lasted on and off for several years, I'm embarrassed to say, until I was able to decide to make a clean break from her, to ignore her calls, etc. And after a couple of months, I hardly knew her name anymore. I guarantee that if kept responding to her contacts, I would have never moved on.

I don't know what else I or anyone here can tell you for you to cut off contact. Even if we did get as brutal as kerala mentioned, it would still be up to you to act on the message. So you have to realize that you are a big part of the problem here, but the beauty of it is that you are also the solution, if you just cut contact completely.

Don't forget that your XBF is an X for a reason - he did not give you what you needed in many years of dating. So ask yourself, why would want him back? And "because maybe he changed" is not a valid answer.

AGG

AGG did the below follow a pattern from your XWW? Also - did it follow a pattern of 2 years for your PEA chemicals to die off? Would you classify this as pure lust/infatuation? If yes, why did she never go farther with you ... was it a character flaw of hers? Did she fit Dr. Harley's Freeloader description? Can you provide feedback in terms of your Lovebank? What was keeping your lovebank high with her? Was the physical attraction the key LB depositer? Thanks for the insight!

AGG, I really appreciate your feedback.


My head knows that you are absolutely correct... my whimpness has the hard time accepting it.



That's true, sadly I must agree with all of that. He could have taken advantage of me, but he hasn't. When he took me out to dinner for my birthday, he kissed me on my lips but since then when we met he just hugged me tight, that is all.



Thanks for sharing your story, AGG. I wonder why you always sound so sure about these types of situations. PEP also share her story and I know in my head that my situation is not any different from those of yours, PEP's, KC's and all others.


This gave me the positive energy. Yes, since I am the one who is holding onto something impossible, only if 'I' cut the code, the pain will eventually go away... I need to keep telling this to myself each morning and night.


I am getting tired of second guessing each time he calls or emails me, if he misses me and wants to get back...but regardless of his personality (that he is very proud and stubborn, even when he has arguments with his best friend, he waits for his friend to initiate contact - one time I asked him why he was not contacting his friend if the fact he wasn't talking to his best friend bothered him, he said "if my friend is not calling me, our relationship is over and I am fine with it"), if he truly loved me, he WOULD have come through to let me know that he would not like to lose me. So, yes, he has already given me the answer.

I will try not to think about his profile on the online dating site. It should not matter to me, I will need to keep telling myself that.

Everything else I can control - my career and finance and my appearance and household stuff - I do so well, I don't understand why when it comes to romantic relationships I totally suck at them.

Hmm, good questions. It did not really follow a pattern from XW. It took me a while to get over the loss of the marriage, but I don't think that the PEA chemicals had anything to do with it, it was the loss of the family that I mourned. It's kinda hard to have much chemical attraction to a woman, even if she's your wife, who is receiving texts at your home from a married coworker saying "Lick My C***!", right?

As for the woman I mentioned earlier, yeah, that was all infatuation. I made her out to be a demi goddess in my mind, largely for PA reasons, but also because she fit the mold of who I thought was perfect for me. So my Lovebank overflowed, but not so much based on her actions as for what I thought she was, which she wasn't . Did you follow that?

I think that milkshake (since this is her thread) is doing the same thing. She is projecting that her XBF was the perfect guy for her (like our newer poster tnmom67 something was doing with her XBF), despite the compelling and overwhelming evidence that these guys can't and won't give them what they so desperately need/want. So how is that healthy? How is it healthy to be mourning or yearning for someone who does not meet your needs? Yes, the answer is "because they COULD meet my needs", but there is no evidence of that whatsoever. What they are doing, like I did with the woman I mentioned, was latch on to the positives, and brush off the huge elephants in the room with a "well if only she did A B or C, then she'd be perfect". I didn't realize how absurd that sounded until I looked back at it with a clear head. Same with mikshake ("if only XBF told me he loved me") or tnmom ("if only he committed to me") - sure, the road to misery is paved with "if onlys"....

I know for a fact that one day milkshake will look back and wonder what she ever saw in XBF.. But she needs to cut the cord or pull off the bandaid (take your pick) and never contact him again before she can start clearing her head.

AGG

Just curious but did you see his pic on the online dating site?

I think (and I'm not expert) that you are just a normal woman and are over-analyzing the situation. Have I mentioned before that I HATE being a girl? I don't think most guys feel like we do. They just don't get how their actions/words can affect us.

This is my advice to you - write the email. Don't send it. Keep it. If he keeps contacting you, send it. If he is THE ONE, he'll be there 12 years from now like kerala's husband. If he's not the one, just think what God might have in store for you when you do find the one!!!

I'm in the process of learning to be happy being single. I don't see an end in sight, but I know it's there.

I'm a quote junkie so I'll leave you with this: Believe in yourself and all that you are. Know that there is something inside you that is greater than any obstacle.

Thanks AGG and Prissana, my gosh, some of your posts made me cry a bit, and I am in the office!!!!!!

I know you guys are right. My head and heart are not in sync though..., well that's not even true, my heart even knows that it is over. I am a pretty proud person too (I'm not proud of that, lol) yet if I REALLY want it, I go for it, I call up my XBF just to let him know that I still love him, sounding totally pathetic...., so obviously no matter what character flaws he may have, the fact he was okay letting me go, that's the answer right there.

Milkshake,
I am shaking my head because I feel like you are not listening to us. We know what we're talking about! If you continue contact with him, you must want more heartache, what you've gone through already is not enough.

Some people continue emails/phone calls because they want to ease their guilt and want to let you down easy, or maybe they enjoy your company but not to the point of actually marrying you. It doesn't matter, you KNOW moving on is the thing to do and you KNOW no contact is what you should be engaged in! Yet you continue to do what you want to do, not what you know is the right thing to do. Let the man go! Don't make things worse on your child by dilly-dallying with this man!

Have some self-respect! If you continue throwing yourself at him, he will have LESS respect for you and treat you WORSE! Don't you get it? Don't be easy for him! And don't try to manipulate him or change his mind/heart! You aren't right together, let it go! Something I have learned is, some people will treat you worse the more you give instead of appreciating you, it's as if they view your love cheaply. Save it for someone who deserves it and will reciprocate.

Do NOT send the email. Just do not contact him at all. Come here and write instead. Call up your best friend. Anything but contact him.

Milkshake, he's not right for you. He sees something about the two of you that doesn't work for him. Therefore, as much as it stinks, you need to move on.

Get out of the house. Meet new people. I'd also suggest some better self-talk here, rather than "I am so in love with XBF!" I'm thinking "Wow. I must be bored right now because I really want to connect with that idiot." Or "I want a shoulder to cry on... I wonder who will listen to my pity party for 10 minutes."

It's best not to feed your obsession.

Milkshake, This was in my Divorce Care email yesterday. I thought about you when I read it.

God wants to meet you right where you are now. He is never surprised or appalled by anything you have done. He wants to ease your lonely heart today.

Prissanna, I do hear you guys. What I was saying is that "I already called him over the weekend just to let him know that I was still in love with him, even though I can be very proud too, so no matter how proud my XBF is, if he REALLY wants to, he would have told me so already". So I was not implying that I was going to call and tell him how much I love him again.

Thanks for the quote. I need lots of encouragement these days just to let time pass by. Thanks for thinking about me. I know you have gone through a lot too, I read your story, and it amazes me how you can stay strong despite all the mess and hurt and heartache and sadness and injustice.

Last night and this morning I kept telling myself that 'sooner I accept the reality, the better off I am'...., I am working on it!

Greengables,

>> "Wow. I must be bored right now because I really want to connect with that idiot." Or "I want a shoulder to cry on... I wonder who will listen to my pity party for 10 minutes." >>>

I love this! YES, the fact I can afford thinking about the person who could not even say ILY in 5 years tells I should be adding more of dance classes to my schedule

You guys really rock! Okay, are you guys willing to share the secret of staying strong when you have those 'moments'? I mean, I actually do have very busy life, which I am extremely grateful for. My 9-year-old keeps me very busy, and my social life is pretty busy too usual. I know I should be spending more time with my friends, etc., and I booked a nice vacation with my son and my friend's family with a young child in March, which I am very much looking forward to. I am trying to fill my schedule and occupy myself. But I still have those moments, which weakens me fairly easily. How do you fight that?

I will NOT check my emails till the end of today so that I will not even have a chance to get sad not seeing emails from XBF.

I knew you hadn't called him again. But I do know that when we do stuff that we feel stupid about later, it keeps popping up in our heads for months to come. Believe me, I know this from experience.

How to cope? Generally I shove thoughts out of my head as soon as they pop in there. I went back and read ALOT of the threads in this section that I thought applied to me. It helped to see that I wasn't the only person who has ever obsessed over someone. It also helped to read advice about not being ready for a relationship. I never realized how complicated the whole process was. Perhaps if I had have known, I would have done better with picking my first mate you know?

I have started trying to connect with my friends more. I pushed a lot of them away for a long time but thankfully they didn't get offended. I have an internet job as well as my regular job so I have plenty to do. I am starting a few home projects in the next month or so and I am looking forward to that. I hope to whip my yard back into shape this year. I have to MAKE myself go outside at times. Part of being depressed means you want to stay inside I think. I have started making myself go to both church services on Sunday and I'm amazed at how much better I feel for doing that. I've gleaned some wonderful/encouraging info from being there.

Have you ever heard of Pinterest? I'm addicted to that. It has craft ideas, humorous things, fashion ideas, etc. It's where I get a lot of my quotes from. I save them to my phone and re-read them when I'm feeling like an idiot. I have little inspirations posted all over my window at work that I read and re-read depending on how I'm feeling. I listen to praise music when I'm in the car so I don't have the silence to think. I keep telling myself 'You were given this life because you were strong enough to live it.'

I think it's wise for you to check your email one time a day. It shows strength on your part.

Pinterest, I have never heard of that. I just googled it, but unfortunately here at work the site is being blocked. I will check it out at home later.

I have a lot to do too around the house, I need to complete a painting job done (not myself, I will hire someone -;), yard needs to be improved, and potentially one of my bathroom remodeling. I need to yank some strength to motivate myself to go through off of my 'to-do list'.

I know, when I do not have my son around over the weekend, if I just stay in, that's a really bad idea. This weekend I am throwing a baby shower at my house, so at least that will keep me busy one of the weekends. Then I may get together with the guy I mentioned in my earlier post (the one who is very nice but somehow I am not attracted to). Or I wonder that will only make me feel even lonelier. It's hard to believe I can fall in love again...., it takes a long time for me to really like someone.

I have lots of post-it notes on my monitors too, to remind me to stay positive and of the great stuff I have in life. I'm embarrassed that other people can see them, so I write them in my mother language - hee hee, the advantage of having my secret codes

Now I am actually getting upset. How dare, XBF to waste my precious 5 years! If he did not think we would go anywhere as a couple, why did he waste my time and continue to date? Why he complained that "I" did not love him enough??? Why he made it sound like "I" did not show my love to him and complained that I prioritized my son??? All this time, "HE" wasn't really thinking of marriage anyway!

I am losing some faith though... many people I have met claimed they are 'happy' in their relationships, but when I really have serious talk with them they all revealed issues and complaints in their relationships. When I was going through divorce, I joined this group at church. It was like a divorce group, but the purpose was more to 'rebuild', 're-strengthen' marriages for those couples who were going through tough time. Anyway, I was assigned to this group and the head of the group was a �happily� married couple. They were the leaders and consulted with us with problems. Later on, the female leader (the wife) and I became friends personally, and found out that SHE and HER HUSBAND (they appeared to be so happy together!) had major issues and they were at a verge of divorce.

Many of my friends have told me "we are very happily married" and have given me a lot of advice on my private life when I was going through divorce as well as going through this breakup with my XBF, yet two of my GFs called me saying "I want to divorce my husband!" one day. The other one confessed that �it is what it is, I am not going to divorce my husband, but I really don�t care about him anymore�. The other one said �when my kids leave the house, I will divorce my husband�. One guy who has pursued me for many years despite I turned him down many times�., he has said million times that �Milkshake, you ARE the one! You are such a quality woman�, and when he learned that I broke up with my BF he begged me many times to consider taking him as a new BF. Yet, the other day we were talking and he said something about this girl he is seeing � it is okay, I am not interested in him, so I wasn�t shocked or jealous, but I was puzzled. I asked him about her and he said �yes she is my girlfriend�. They have been together all these years when he was pursuing me. AND she is married. �Why have you been pursuing me then if you had a girlfriend? Or more appropriately, why are you dating a married woman, and also WHY do you pursue other woman while you have someone you are seeing?� He said �oh she is a fall-back plan, I really want YOU, but you haven�t accepted my offer so in the mean time I am spending time with her. The list goes on, but ALL OF THE STORIES totally discourage me. Why we cannot stay happily married? Is it just a fact of life that people would eventually get bored and take his/her partner for granted and other people/options start to look better?

Even my XBF. He kept talking about his friends with marital problems, he judged them, he criticized them, and talked how 'different' he was and we were - but inside he was secretly planning on ending our relationship. Not to mention my XH who is a pathological liar - till the day he dropped the bomb, he kept telling me how 'lucky' he was to be married to me and have our beautiful son and how he would do 'anything' for us - while he was chasing other women and ended up getting arrested and diagnosed with an SA.

What can I trust? I know there are many on this site who say they have happily recovered their marriages or they met someone and remarried happily - I really DO want to hear those success stories, but are they real? They are not telling us who go through the hard time just to cheer us up? Do they truly have happy marriages? I sure hope so, otherwise I would feel hopeless...

Girl anger is GOOD! Keep it up. Keep thinking these thoughts. Stay mad at him.

I have the same thoughts you do about if ppl are truly happy or if it is partially a show. One side of my brain wars with the other as to whether I can ever trust again or if should just resign myself to singleness.

When I first separated, I just KNEW I would never desire another relationship. Months later a nice looking guy that I like as a person but am not interested in as a date asked me out and my mind started thinking this might be fun (I haven't went with him - it's a standing invitation). That's when the war in my head started.

Another guy friend and I have talked about going out to eat together and going to the movies when our schedule allows - he's even talked to my ex-husband about us doing these things. That freaked me a bit but they work together so ... I think it would be fun, but because of the state I'm in, I just don't know if I should. Plus you can't control who you fall for and I'm not willing to mess up our friendship. He is a WONDERFUL person. I'm not interested romantically but ... I could become that way and then where would we be? He knows all of my crazy thoughts so he's going into this with his eyes WIDE open. lol We have a tentative date for the end of March. I plan on waiting to see how I feel then and re-evaluating.

I read stories like yours and the guy who posted recently about his GF going back to her ex and see/feel the hurt. The situation with my crush devastated me (and still bothers me at times) and we didn't even have a relationship. I don't know if it's worth it to even try you know? I had 17 years of hurt, it's time to be happy for a change. Then I read other stories and think awwww ... if only. So I feel your pain and indecisiveness.

Seriously. 50% of married couple ends in divorce in this country. Of the 50% remained (those who stay married), it sounds like 2/3 aren't happy. They just stayed together for the sake of money, kids, work, heath reasons, age, whatever.

This makes me feel that WE ALL try to get this 1/3 of 50%, which is a mere 16.67% share of 'happy marriage' pie. No wonder it's sooooooo difficult!!! There are then those who just cannot make the life-time commitment, who knows how many guys are like that (sorry, it could be women too but isn't it more common that guys are commitment phobia?), and there are those 'rich' men who would have multiple women...., so if say 20% of eligible men are either commitment phobia or players, then that would just leave us 80%, of which 50% goes bad and only 16.67% okay..., well 13.3%. 13.3% of us women may be able to get happily married. Yikes. I even hate the number 13, that's a bad luck!!

Please someone, give some positive outlook on this whole 'happy marriage' animal...

I had a terrible first marriage and I am remarried for over a year now. I can honestly say I am happier than I thought possible. I also have a good friend who married last summer and she says the same thing. Both of us have kids/step-kids/ exes....but even with all of that we are still very happy. I have many many close friends who have good marriages and I do believe they are 'real'....not perfect but certainly real.

I will give you that marriage is under attack in our current society. It takes effort to keep a marriage strong.

As far as finding someone....I really like Dr. Harley's article on this site about compatibility. I found it very helpful and right in line with what I had discovered about myself over trial and error.

The Harley's have good information, but I'd also look around to some other sources as well since there are a lot of different aspects to compatibility.

My second marriage was perfect, but the relationship did have it's challenges. But the challenges were peanuts compared to how in sync we were. How could I remain mad at Mike when Mike was me to a large part? I couldn't. Our biggest spat lasted 3 days when Mike didn't speak to me beaucse he blamed me for his cat disappearing. He started talking again even before the cat showed back up. LOL.

Another secret? You know a lot better who you are after age 40 than do you before. Therefore, you choose a lot better.

I received the following email late last night from my XBF, although I did not see it till this morning. He sent it yesterday because he left for his business trip/golf outing today and will not return till Sunday. And I had mentioned last time I left a message that if I did not hear back from him before he leaves for his trip on Thursday I would assume he is �done�.

------
Hello,
I recently got a new computer at work and had to clean up and get my few personal pictures off of the old one that I had saved. The attachments brought a big smile to my face but also some tears. Yes, we have had so many great times and fun experiences and I write this shedding more tears. ==> <<He attached two pictures, one of him and my son, and the other one of all three of us together>>

At the end of the day this is all about you and me because at some point down the road DS will eventually be on his own. It is about each other's abilities to compromise on certain issues, how we truly feel about each other, and how we can agree to work out things down the road.

I have always thought that you are a smart and beautiful woman, a good cook and a great mother to DS. Unfortunately, I have never felt that I was to you a great catch and necessarily worth the added effort and that you would do nearly anything for your spouse, ie. me. Your comment about look what it got me with XH has always sort of seemingly been there. For me the most important things in your partner are feeling that the other person is your biggest fan, biggest supporter, nearly always on your side and will do nearly anything for you and not feel that it is a lot of work or too much effort. I never really felt that I got that from you.

I will always care about you guys and love the both of you. I treated DS as if he was my own son, probably the closest I will ever be to having a son of my own. I understand if it is better and easier for you to not have me anymore in your and DS's life although that comes with sadness also, but if you feel that is in your and DS's best interest then I guess it will have to be that way.

Love always,

XXX

It's ironic that this is the first time ever he said that he loves me.

How are you feeling Milkshake? Did this email help or hurt?

Thanks for asking Prissanna. It's mixed... For one thing, I was happy that he could not just ignore my request and responded by Thursday, even though he did not have to. For another, it is sad to see that we both have the feelings and are sad about the whole thing yet this had to come to this.

To me he is very clear that he sees no future with you. I do think he wimps out a bit by sort of blaming it on you (he doesn't feel likie you are his biggest fan) but then again maybe that IS his complaint and it is a valid one.

I hope you will be well now.

I completely agree with SmilingWoman. The email does show some feeling, but also makes it clear that there is no future.

Not like it's a surprise, because you did spend 5 years together and it did not work, so you already know that.

You still need to cut off contact, because I know that these kind of sad emails tug at your heart strings and make you think "no, wait, we can still be pals, no need for a clean break". That would be a mistake.

AGG

Marriage requires great effort and some people want to blame the other for all of their problems instead of looking for solutions and ways to make it better.

My late husband and I were very happy together, we had great communication, balance, it was wonderful. I felt he was my soulmate in every sense of the word.

Some of the things you cited here are some of the reasons I don't want to date, let alone marry. I'm not saying never, but for right now I really just don't feel like it. I don't want the drama, the heart break, the disappointment.

Good morning! What I am about to write is a very long journal of my thoughts. I need to write down my inner thoughts and struggles. It helps to keep writing and organizing my thoughts.

We had quite a bit of wet snow this morning. As I was shoveling my driveway, I came to the realization that

(1) XBF and I had the same conversation repeatedly while we were together, whenever we talked about our future. As long as we were not talking about �us� and the �future� we got along well and had fun together but once we started talking about THE topic we got in an argument. This suggests that no matter how I argue or disagree (the fact he could not give me what I was looking for either and thus I built a wall around me to protect myself from the hurt, which to him felt that I was not that much into him), this is how he feels/felt about me and us. And I cannot change his thoughts/feelings. Only HE can choose to change that.

(2) No men like to have this type of relationship talk. This is why in the past whenever we had the talk, we got uncomfortable and changed the subject. We appeared to become �just fine� soon as we stopped talking about our future, but in reality we never really solved the core issues. I had sent letters/emails about us before (because when we had the talk face to face, it always ended up in argument so I decided to let him know of my thoughts in writing), and he each time said he would get back to me on these issues but he never did. I pretended that I had forgotten about it and we just went back to having a �normal� life. The reason he got back to me this time, and this time only, is because I sort of threatened that I would assume he is �done� with us if he did not get back to me by Thursday. So continuing on having the talk will not serve well at all, it will be a huge turn-off. Frankly, even for me, it�s such a daunting task to have more discussion at this point.

(3) He is on the online dating site already. He wants to find someone else. In the meantime he wishes he could still be in our (my and my DS�s) lives. He may just not want to lose touch with DS, he may still miss having interaction with me, or it could be his �back-up� plan in case he cannot find anyone else or new relationship does not work out. Regardless, it�s all good for him, because it�s not emotionally hard on him doing this but it IS for me. The more I pursue, the easier it becomes for him to have this sort of life.

Above is the rationale thinking, early in the morning in the crispy cold air, lol. I know you guys all agree with me. Now here is the non-rationale, emotion-driven thinking:

a. If he was truly done, he did not need to get back to me and simply let me know that we are done. There is some hope that I would still allow him in our lives, regardless of the motivation.

b. Several weeks ago when we were talking about investment opportunities in certain IPOs, he told me �if you want and decide to do this IPO investment but are short of fund, let me know�. Yes, this does not mean anything about our romantic relationship, but surely he trusts me and also is completely comfortable about potentially stuck together as co-investors. If he wanted to cut the code completely, he would not have said what he said.

c. Even though we always had the same conversation (that he feels that I am not that into him or I am doing him a favor by playing golf with him on weekends), he often talked about future in a strange way. For example, he always asked me �if I ever become too old to take care of myself and to function properly, just kill me�.

When I totally detach myself from the situation and analyze this, it seems XBF is not THAT clear on things and he still does not know 100% what he wants.

So this is where my neediness kicks in, started wondering if going to see a counselor would help? Then I go back to my own thought #2. Why on earth would XBF agree to go see a counselor when he does not even want to respond to my emails regarding us, unless I give him the deadline?

If he was not this stubborn a person, I would say �just stop contacting completely, if HE truly misses us and wants to reconcile, he WOULD contact me. But he is very proud, so I know with the 100% accuracy that if I do not do anything now, this is it, we will NEVER ever see each other again in our lifetime.

I understand I need to ask myself many questions. He does not want to compromise (I told him I am willing to sell my house and move for him, I am playing golf with him but he does not have to go skiing with me and DS, we almost always went to places he liked on vacation, I stopped wishing spending the entire weekend as a family or just two of us together because he always had golf tournament and/or lessons and/or games with his brother and friends on at least one of the weekend, if not both, he complained about packing and coming to my house on every other weekend and stayed just one night while I never complained about packing and going to his house on every other weekend and I stayed for two nights, I always pleased him in bed while I did not really ask him much in return), but he wants me to treat him like a king. Is that what I want? Sure, when I put down like this, it doesn�t sound too much of a �catch�, and maybe that�s why I showed in my attitude that he was the greatest �catch� to me. So what makes me think that even if we get back together, unless certain things change that I will be happy enough to treat him like a king? No, so IF and only IF we ever get back together successfully, we both need to recognize the needs for improvement and to be able to discuss the issues heart to heart. Is that what XBF wants? Probably not. But I am willing to do this.

Do I leave him an option of (because he is so proud and will never contact me if I ignore his email) contacting me in the future only if he wants to get back and agrees to go counseling?
The reason I hang onto him is because of what I said earlier about other couples. I have yet never seen any married couples over several years (over 10 years) that they are still madly in love and happy. My parents have been married for 47 years. They still do many things together and travel together, but my mom complains about my dad a lot, and I know they are together mostly because they are just too old to make any changes. Also they do not have any other people they are attracted to, so still my mom is the best for my dad and vice versa, but it�s not like �oh I love this person so dearly�, no. A lot of my friends are still married but inside stories are not that glorious. Everyone sort of �gave up� on ideal relationship/marriage, and accept the reality as is.

So I know as a fact, no matter who I end up with, I will never be 100% satisfied. He won�t be either. My XBF meets many of my �must have� list. Sure he has flaws but so do I. I am attracted to him. So he is to me. We both love DS so deeply. Why cannot we make it work?

The fact he mentioned about the �ability to make things work out down the road��. He might be thinking �I� need to make changes to make it work, not necessarily him�, but isn�t that a start for now? If he has even a 5% willingness to give it a try, I feel that I would like to take. So it�s not necessarily out of desperation. This is a reflection of reality and recognition that there is no such thing as �perfect relationship�, so I just want to fix and treasure what we already have.

I need to protect myself, yes. At the same time I cannot help but trying to be strategic about the whole thing. Is there a way to reach XBF in a short, not-too-heavy yet effective way, to let him know my thoughts abouve? Or do you honestly think that XBF is completely done. I somehow do not feel that, given the fact he responded to me and other things I mentioned above.

OK, now I am sounding very pathetic again.

I'm sorry milkshake, but this makes no sense at all. Your entire post is full of "what ifs" that might help you get him back, though probably on his terms, not yours. Are you nuts?? Do you not recall that you were the one who wanted to get rid of him, and for good reasons? The constant golf disapperances? The inability to say ILY to you after 5 years? The inability or lack of interest in giving you what you want, a commitment?

I can't understand why you are devoting so much energy to figuring out what is going in his mind, and how you might get him to be something that he won't ever be. And your comments about "no couple is happy after several years, so maybe this is as good as it gets" are very misguided and are the #1 reason why people choose to marry the wrong partners. I was going to say "don't make that mistake", but there is no risk of that since this guy has no interest in marrying you, right?

I think I suggested it before, but I'd recommend you read Will Our Love Last? , it is a great book and will help you get a better feel for assessing compatibility and not making excuses for a bad match.

AGG

Milkshake, go get a copy of He's Just Not That Into You. Read it. Read it again. Accept the fact that he's not the one. Get him out of your life so that there will be space for the RIGHT one to show up.

This---
>> The reason I hang onto him is because of what I said earlier about other couples. I have yet never seen any married couples over several years (over 10 years) that they are still madly in love and happy. My parents have been married for 47 years. They still do many things together and travel together, but my mom complains about my dad a lot, and I know they are together mostly because they are just too old to make any changes. Also they do not have any other people they are attracted to, so still my mom is the best for my dad and vice versa, but it�s not like �oh I love this person so dearly�, no. A lot of my friends are still married but inside stories are not that glorious. Everyone sort of �gave up� on ideal relationship/marriage, and accept the reality as is.>>


is faulty reasoning. IF it is true, (and I don't believe it is) then still and yet you are saying you are feeling this way BEFORE marriage. It has been FIVE years! Let him go!!



There are so many good matches out there. Don't settle for junk.

Cut this guy out of your life cold turkey. The sooner you do so the better for you AND for your ds!! And don't waste another five years on ANY man who isn't a good fit for marriage since MARRIAGE is what you want.

I remarried 11 weeks after I met dh. While in most 'worlds' THAT may be too quick, there is absolutely NO REASON it should take FIVE years to determine if a man/woman is a keeper or not. Some once suggested that after a year of 'life'....going through all the seasons, vacation, family events etc together....that you should know if you are a fit or not. It it doesn't feel long term after a year, let him go.

Not true. My dh LOVES relationship talk. We talk about 'us' all of the time.


I wish I had a dime for every time I attempted to talk to my WXH about our relationship and marriage. And a dime for every time he refused in one way or another. I did everything I could to fix it but HE DIDN'T WANT TO....you cannot make another human 'want' to be with you.....or want to marry you....or want to talk about your relationship.

Then I met my now dh and I realize how easy it is to love someone and to be loved.

Yes. This. I haven't read it, but I hear it is great.

You got me AGG. That is correct. No matter what, XBF is not interested in marrying me. This is why as long as we were just dating things were fine, but the minute we talked about marriage, we ended up in an argument.

I was actually starting to think along the 'I don't need to get married' line... Why? Because of the same reason, I feel that if I ever get married again, I will always end with the heartache. I wish it's more black and white, you either marry the right kind or be happy the rest of your life, or not. Unfortunately, many marry with excellent intention and motivation and love and respect...., still after many years, your ego and selfishness and desire for 'something new' always kicks in..., so maybe staying as boyfriends and girlfriends might be safer. OK, I am a bit lying here, as of course I would like my BF to be able to commit for life but right now I feel that even boyfriend/girlfriend is nice...

As for his golf disappearances and inability to say ILY..., sadly I think I am used to it now... I view that as his flaw, and I feel that I am willing to trade that in for other things such as his hardworking nature, that he does not flirt with other women, he is good to DS, he is smart and dependable. We all have to compromise; we will never get everything we want in life, right?

I don't want to sound like a broken recorder, but another thing is that it is pretty difficult for me to be physically attracted to a man....

I am scared, however, that if I tell him that I do not need to get married I just want to be with him...., it will weaken my position and would that promote him to go cheat on me? He never did and that's not in his character, however now he is online. He may think "Milkshake is willing to get back to me no matter what, it won't hurt for me to check around other options then".

AGG, you are a wise man. You are NOT XBF, but if you put yourself in XBF's shoe..., is there a way for you to turn around and want to get back with me, if I do not pressure marriage?

Guess I missed a bunch of follow-up posts from you guys. Thanks Kirby and SmilingWoman.

Believe me, I know I sound pathetic, and I am not like this AT ALL on any other aspects of my life, except for my romantic life. I am a control freak; probably that�s why I do fine in other areas since I can control them (career, finances, house choir, etc.) but totally lose and feel vulnerable when it comes to relationships.

Even after I posted my response to AGG, I hated the fact I did it, that I just cannot accept the reality that XBF did not love me ENOUGH to make the commitment and try to work things out TOGETHER, instead of not giving me what I wanted but expected ME to treat him like a king and be his biggest fan. I keep telling myself �GET THE PICTURE ALREADY, HE DOES NOT WANT TO!!!�

I just cannot imagine one day I actually meet someone I LOVE again, someone who meets my needs and I can meet his�.. after two failed relationships, it seems impossible. I honestly feel that �I� am not fit for relationships. I am a great mother, but maybe can never be a great GF or wife. And those who think I am great as a person and woman, I am never interested in. What is wrong with me�.?

Milkshake, there are so many things wrong with this statement, I don't even know where to start. Lots of us have been , trying to tell you that you do NOT need to settle, do NOT need to accept crumbs, do NOT need to hang on to someone who disappears and yells, and yet you keep rationalizing and justifying and explaining. But you are not going to convince me or others, especially those of us who have found mates with whom we did not have to settle... I suspect you don't truly believe what you are saying, you are just saying this out of pain, rather than what you truly believe deep down inside. I hope .


I dunno, milkshake, I cannot put myself into your XBF's shoes because I have always been a family man. The idea of yelling at my partner, disappearing every weekend to play golf, not wanting to talk to my partner about "us", or not being able to commit, is just totally foreign to me.

But I can tell you this - I have several times broken up with women who, IMO, were not right for me, and who then said "OK, I am going to change", or "I no longer want what I previously wanted" (e.g. have a kid), or change in some other way. And inevitably, that never made me think "great, let's give it another shot". If anything, I lost some respect for them. And you cannot love someone whom you do not respect. Besides, I would never want someone to fundamentally change for me, that's just not fair to anyone.

You are still missing the elephant in the room - not that he did not want to marry you, but that he did not treat you the way you wanted to be treated. You were right to end things with him, and you would be making a huge mistake going back to that unsatisfying relationship. But it's your choice - a little bit of pain from breaking up, or prolonged pain from going around in circles yet again.

AGG

Seconded. My H has no issues talking about our relationship. That's because he's generally happy with it, and with me. But back when we were first going out, it was like pulling teeth.

Seriously, milkshake, you've got to let this guy go. Like...today. No need to send him any kind of final good bye. Just do it.

I really hope so too, I am in tremendous pain and I sure hope this is why I am not making sense.


This, one my GFs told me before..., hearing from a guy makes me believe more in it.


Somehow this made me cry. Thanks.

So now yours and SmilingWoman's husbands proved me wrong. That's great, I love being wrong in this arena.


Thanks kerala, I know you told me that your H was not able to committ way back when you were dating, and he changed. You did not think back then, though, that you and commitment-phobic boyfriend will end up marrying in the future right? Did you two become friends AFTER you became emotionally detached from him?

I do not think I can nor want to wait 18 years like you , lol, but just curious... Well, knowing my and his personalities, your story will not apply, if I do not respond to his email, I KNOW that we will NEVER meet or speak again.

My head is telling me to cut him off. I just need to get stronger.

One day when you look back at this, you'll wonder what took you so long .

AGG

And THIS is how you know for sure he is not the one for you. And maybe it also means he knows you are not the one for him and he is strong enough to not contact you again.





AGG is right....you will someday wonder 'what was I thinking?!' Did you watch that clip that Kirby posted called 'Let Folks Go'. It is priceless. I've showed it to my ds12 and my dh and everyone I can think of . I LOVE it.

And as someone else said, 'you can't make room for the right one when your life is consumed by the wrong one.'

Let him go.

Here is a trick I used when I was 'letting go' of my WXH. I pretended he was dead. You can't email a dead man. You can't call him either.

Pretend he is dead. I had to do that with my X because I knew I could NEVER take him back or I would be totally destroyed....but I knew I was susceptible to being sucked back in by him because I had been married to him for 26 years and he was/is the father of my child. Yet I KNEW I had to be done with him. So I pretended he was dead.

Whatever trick will work for you...let him go.

UGG --- AGG can you please clarify the bold?

From my understanding of reading Dr. Harley, in a buyer relationship partners are adapting to the changing needs of the other partner. If you partner is not meeting your needs, then change has to happen so the partner can learn how to meet your needs. It is done in a POJA format.

Wow, I can't believe you're still rehashing this because we've gone over this and over this time and again and it's as if you want to keep saying the same things over and over until you hear what you WANT to hear, which is, "there is no such thing as the perfect match, you have to settle so you might as well make compromises and settle for THIS man". But you aren't going to catch any of us saying that because we are telling you the opposite!

Incidentally, my late husband and I talked about EVERYTHING, including relationship, and we were deeply in love and in sync and very happy! My son is nearly 28 and has looked for the right person all his life. He has never like relationship talk. UNTIL last summer when he met THE ONE! We have been having a wonderful time watching him turn into one of us! He spent a month searching thousands of rings to find JUST THE RIGHT ONE for the girl of his dreams! He made special plans for THE PROPOSAL. They are planning a huge wedding, in which he is a happy participant. This is the person he wants to spend the rest of his life with, he has waited for her all of his life, and they couldn't be happier! He used to hate being on the phone, now he dashes when he hears it ring because "it might be a call from HER!" These changes have come about because he has finally met THE ONE and he wants and desires to be with her and please her, just as she does him. For the first time in his life I see ready smiles on his face (he's always been serious and stoic) and he glows...as does his bride to be. THIS is what you should wait for! Don't settle! I had it with my late husband, and it was a huge mistake when I remarried and I've paid a dear price for it. If I can't have that all out love again, I'd rather be alone. Being alone is not a bad thing, it's not the worst thing in the world...being with the WRONG person is!

Thanks SmilingWoman, you guys are so strong and supportive and full of wisdoms. I managed to function at work over the past several days because of you guys. Seriously. Thank you.

I actually draged the whole thing a bit too long too when my marriage ended. My XH's personality is very different, and I knew he would come back when he wanted to.. and he did, but he just wanted to use me. In the meantime I kept praying and hoping that he would become a person with honesty and strength and responsibility - that never happened. I wasted a lot of time waiting around for him. Then I met my XBF. I do give him a credit and thank him that because of him, I was able to eventually let go of XH and started having fun again. Even though our relationship ended and it took us 5 years to realize that, I am glad at least I did not waste my time waiting for XH

I could not pretend my XH was dead, even though I wanted to, because I have to see him every other weekend. So that made it much harder for me to move on. And also he is the father of my son. But with XBF, if I pretend he is dead, I can actually pull it together..., today I deleted his last phone message from this past Monday. It was hard and I cried, but I did not want to remember his voice. My navigation system still has his address, but I will delete it today.

I hate the end of the relationships. KC is right, sometimes I wonder why people want to continue to fall in love...., it's so painful. I hope there are meanings to all of my heartache. I also feel so sorry for my son, for losing two important men in his life at such young age. DS's basketball coach likes me and asked me out, although I declined. Yet, I can tell my son seems to be somehow hoping that the other man will come and rescue us?

I sense that DS is trying NOT to talk about XBF, maybe because he sees pain in me or maybe it's painful for him as well so he does not want to talk about it..., he did ask one time if I miss XBF. I said yes, but kept it light. He asked why we would not be together so I told him I did not think it was a good idea to stay boyfriend/girlfriend without getting married. He agreed, he wants me to get married again.

Happy to clarify. IN NO WAY did I wait for my now H. We did not speak for over a year, then slowly became friends. Even after that, I had two serious relationships with lovely men, both of which could have ended up in marriage. Ultimately, they didn't work out and J proved to me that he wanted a true commitment. If anything, I took some convincing.

That's a nice story. I love hearing happy-ending stories...;) Again, that won't happen to XBF. He takes what comes to him, but he does not chase after. He is the only one I ever dated who never really pursued me. Sure he liked me, but if I didn't call, he was okay not calling me for a few days.

XBF does not really have many friends. One he speaks to the most is a golfer, and he is single too. When they have a conflict, it's always his friend who ends up calling XBF. One time they did not speak for 2 weeks and XBF told me "we may not talk again.... but that's okay if it turns out to be like that", but I could tell he was in pain. I asked why he would not call him, but he shook his head. He said he does not have 'friends' because that was his choice..., the other one he knows since college is bi-sexual and still single. So he really does not have any good friends who are happily married. I wonder if that had anything to do with the whole thing... His brother is married but no kids, because he wants his golf to come first, and he and his wife go on vacation whenever he needs to go practice and have private lessons from famous coaches. They never just go to places because she wants to or just for sight seeing. It has to be always golf-related reasons. She does everything and anything for him, she even carries his bags, so I know XBF thinks his brother is very lucky (which he said to me many times). Yet he felt that his brother is selfish, and claimed he is not like that (which is true, XBF is much much better than his brother).

Anyway, I can't wait for the day I feel 'nothing' or better yet, "great, I am so much happier now, why didn't I break up with him sooner?".

They continue to take the risk because the rewards are great if it pans out.

My advice, go out with the coach and anyone else nice that asks you...not to fall in love or get married, but just to have fun and enjoy someone else's company and get to know them. And if somewhere along the journey you should happen to meet the right man, all the better, right? Just don't try to make every date into a potential marriage partner, they're just a date, keep it light and take things slow with people.

And I'm APPLAUDING you for deleting his message! YAY!

Well, not AGG but remember PI this poster is not married. POJA doesn't apply in this situation.

Discovering fundalmental differences that might make a relationship unhappy or impossible is part of the dating process and it is how you weed out the wrong ones.

Yw. And keep coming here if you feel weak.

Good job deleting his vm!

That is a very sweet story kay, I am so happy for your son! And milkshake, there is another very valuable point in kay's story that bears repeating - when you meet "THE ONE", you'll know it, it is head and shoulders above the "maybes". You never question it, you never doubt, you just know it. It's like hitting a home run after a bunch of infield singles.

So THAT is your best sign that your XBF is not the ONE. You don't feel that way about him and he does not feel that way about you. If you try to make it work with him, you are guaranteed to be settling for the infield singles instead of the home run. Don't do that. When you find THE ONE, you will not believe that you wasted so much time with the wrong guy.

AGG

Sure, as SmilingWoman already said, there is a difference between what you do for your spouse and what you do when dating, i.e. "shopping". It's like when you go looking for a house to buy - you look for the house that suits you best. AFTER you buy it, you will clean it, maintain it, fix it up if you want, etc. But until then, you don't hear a realtor asking you to clean up a messy house that he is showing you, or to build an addition to a house that's too small - you keep looking till you find the one that suits you, THEN you take care of it .

Thanks SW and AGG -- I didn't realize there was a difference in dating the one and marrying the one.

The whole thing about "you know when you met the right one", that is actually what makes me very nervous and also discourages me. I never, I Repeat, NEVER had such experience.

On the other hand, my XH said he knew I was the one, but look what happened. My XBF said the same thing, he said he waited all these years to meet me, the best ever. Then this... I don't know, but I tend to think even though you should shop around to make sure what you are getting is close to your ideal, since nothing is perfect, you need to take certain things as is.

Otherwise, what do I make out of the whole things? I am such a horrible person that all theses guys who thought I was the one changed their mind?

PrayIn, I don't know your sitch well, but know you are hurting too. Well with your husband and the father of your children, it't even harder. I feel pretty powerless right now, but I am sure all of these wise and experienced people can give you useful advice. Hugs.

Milkshake, I think you're looking at this in a very troublesome way.

First, regarding this XBF's email. I personally thought it showed a lack of maturity on his part. He dangled just enough emotion out there to get you going over "what if's" again. That was selfish.

Also, please note that when he mentioned love it was in the context of loving you and your son, almost as if it was the same kind of love.

And finally, I hate the "you never loved me enough" argument.


You really, really need to read the book Will Our Love Last? In it, the author talks about validation and the initial phases of love. It's really easy in the beginning to think "This is The ONE!" Because you haven't seen all aspects of that person. You've only seen the best case scenario. Over a year or two, you see all aspects of the person, and you may find things which make you change your mind. This is probably what happened with the men who broke up with you.

I will say that when I decided that Mike was someone I wanted to marry and felt safe marrying, it was a very unique feeling. It wasn't ever the Whamm! struck-by-lightening feeling. For me, it was slower and steadier. I think it was when I realized Mike was my rock.

Ditto

I'm still following your story MS but I'm reading what everyone has to say as I have nothing to help you.

I have a question about this. If you go out with someone just to be going out with someone, isn't that a bit unfair to the person if you don't have an interest in them? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong??? It feels like using someone to me. Plus you risk falling for the WRONG person too. Maybe I'm complicating things. *sigh*

Not at all, as long as you are honest with them about it. If you are upfront about going out just to meet people and chat, there is nothing wrong with that. Just don't portray yourself as being ready for a relationship. If you do that, you are not using anyone.

As for risking falling for the wrong person, I think the more you go out on onesy twosie dates, the better you are prepared to screen out the bad ones. If you only go out to "get involved", then you are a worse screener than if you have gone out with many people more casually. Don't ask me how I know.

AGG

double post

No matter whether you are looking for a serious relationship right this instant or not, I think everyone should go out with the initial intent of getting to know someone and enjoy their company. Else, how do you know whether you want to be in a relationship or not?

I wouldn't go out with someone I disliked or found physically repulsive or knew I wouldn't ever be friends with.

And let's think about what a relationship really is. A voluntary relationship outside of work is formed because two people enjoy similar activities, or enjoy each other's conversation. Even in an exclusive romantic relationship, this is still true, there are just other benefits, like enjoying each other physically to one degree or another.

PS: You can also make sure you're not using the other person by making the time spent together as enjoyable as possible.

How do you know you aren't interested if you haven't given them the chance of one date? Note, I DID say "nice", I don't think you should go out with people who obviously are not nice. It takes TIME to get to know someone, meanwhile, you can enjoy each other's company. How is that unfair? Once you KNOW it's not going anywhere, of course don't continue. Be honest!

GG, my friend said he felt that what XBF was saying in the email is that "well these are the things that were missing in our relationship and only if YOU (= me) make changes, I may consider, maybe". Is that what you saw and referring to in the first part?

On the second part, I didn't realize it, but now you mentioned, yes, I see that, it's almost like he loves me the same way he loves DS. Which is possibly true, even though we always had greatest sex and he was very attracted to me physically, the overall love he had towards me might have been more like 'family' type love and not one that of couple's. DS and I might have become a 'family' to him.

On the third part - can you elaborate on that? My confession, this is my weak point and I always felt guilty about this for my XH and XBF.

With XH, we were so young when we got married, fresh out of college. We had many similarities however we were too young to care for each other and I think we were just too selfish. I was always studying because I wanted to go to good graduate school while XH wanted to watch movies with me at night. Once I was accepted, I was always working and studying. But I was physically there at home, and on Friday and Saturday nights, we did go out often. But I also spent a lot of time studying. He resented that. I took an international assignment (but XH told me to take the chance, he was supposed to follow me and live overseas together for 2 years). I waited for XH but he could never get transferred, so after one year I quit and came back. He resented that tremendously, and said I told him �Fxxx XH, career is more important than XH�, which of course I never said and I was crying when I had to make the decision because I did not want to separate from XH, and XH told me �take is Milkshake, otherwise you will regret. Our love is so strong that a little separation will NEVER break us apart� That�s what he told me, and that�s why I decided to take the overseas position. While I was overseas, I came visit him twice, and he came to visit me once. Each time we spent about 2 weeks. We also called each other every day and emailed to each other several times a day. But it turned out he was having an online affair while I was overseas, which I had no idea about. I came back but he felt that he was not loved enough by me. Once DS was born, he felt even more that he was not important. He was gone every weekend doing drugs and chasing other women (and ended up getting arrested), which he said was my fault because I made him feel not loved.

With XBF. I showed lots of affection, I didn�t go anywhere during the weekend, I always kept my schedule open for him. He is the one who was always gone. The first year was tough for me, I did express my desire to be able to spend more time together, but he said �if you love me, and I am so passionate about golfing, then you should be happy about it and support it�. So I never ever complained about it since. I let him go every weekend. DS likes other sports, but because XBF wanted DS to do golfing, I signed him up for classes, and we played together too. I always told XBF BEFORE I even purchased tickets that we are going home (overseas). I wanted him to come, but he could never take enough days off to go all the way to the other side of the globe so DS and I went home alone every year. XBF felt that he was not loved because I did not make it work so that he could come with us. But tickets are so expensive that it did not make sense to go just for a few days. And I never get to see my own family because they do not live here. Anyway, he felt that was a sign I did not love him enough. I took XBF to Cirque du Soleil and several other ballet shows (I am a dancer myself so I love these shows). He always ended up falling asleep during the show. Every single time. So I took that as a lack of interest. So I would not force him to see the show. One year my parents came to visit us. It happened that Cirque was in town so I decided to buy tickets as gifts and take them. As you know, tickets for Cirque are very expensive. I paid for my parents and DS and myself, 4 of them for a week night since it was slightly cheaper on weeknight. XBF NEVER came to our house on week night. He only came on Saturday evening, and stayed only for one night. The show took place just by my house. I wanted XBF to come but he is not interested in, for that, ticket is way too expensive for someone who is going to just sleep. And it was on a week night. So I did not even think it was a big deal to just to go with my parents. XBF felt that it was a sign I did not care about him. I took a half day to take DS to Six Flags on one Friday, XBF said �you do anything for DS, but you wouldn�t do that for me�.

Even though none of them was intentional nor on my part a lack of love but they felt that I did not love them enough. And somehow I feel very guilty, these remarks make me feel like I am such a cold hearted person. I hate feeling bad about myself but I do feel so low and less confident about my ability to love someone when I hear these complaints.

So I want to know, what you meant by that you �hate �you never loved me enough� argument. I wish I was strong enough to counter argue like you when my partner claims I did not love him enough. But I do lack the strength, because I feel maybe something is wrong with me to make my partners feel I do not love them enough. And because I felt guilty in both cases (XH and XBF), I ended up spending a lot of my time trying to �fix� things.

If I ask differently, when is the statement "you didn't love me enough" argument valid?

Also, how is that different from my feeling of "XBF was always gone to play golf and could not even say ILY in 5 years"? If I translate my feeling, it is the lack of love, no? So we are both quilty. It's like a chicken and an egg. Never ending. We both failed to make each other feel loved. Therefore it's a bad match? Or is it because I am willing to make changes but because he is not willing to make changes?

I miss him... Sigh.

Milkshake, if neither of you felt cared for, cherished by the other, it is probably just a bad match.

But, in general, I object to the "you never loved me enough" argument because it's a lot like blaming the victim. And I've seen people use it to blungeon others into submission. No matter what, it's never enough.

It's different than having complaints about specific behaviors that can be easily changed, like curtailing golf to 8 holes a weekend, max.

Just using this as a journal...

I had a baby shower today so was doing okay during the day and in the afternoon, but was secretly missing my XBF. Funny, even though we never really spent Sat during the day together because he usually go to the gym in the morning on Sat and then to the driving range if the weather is nice or run some errands, if he comes to my house, he never came before 7pm. Then we eat dinner together, go to bed, and on Sun morning usually he is already gone to the driving range most of the time when the weather is good. So why am I missing him when we didn't really have that much Sat memories?? Dunno, I just missed him so much.

And now..., I am missing him tremendously. I am actually having two dates tomorrow - one with a guy who is now a good friend (he has been pursuing me for 3 years or so, but I declined every time he asked me to make him my boyfriend). He knows I am going through a hard time, and has been texting or calling me every once in a while to check on me this past several weeks. He said he has a strategy for me to get over the pain. He said he would take me out to a funny movie tomorrow. During the day, so there would be no sexual stuff. He knows I do not want to be taken advantage of. He said he loves me and wants to help me. He said he loves me not because he wants me, but he said he just loves me as a person, and even if I end up marrying someone else, he said he would always be there for me to help out. Even though I do not think I would end up with him as a couple, I was very grateful he is trying to help me move on. It's so painful though...

And the other one, this is the guy I mentioned a couple of times - he is wonderful, it's just that I am not very excited about him physically. I met him after I 'broke up' with XBF last Sep., but does not know I am still going through a hard time emotionally with the long-term XBF. We'll probably meet for dinner or something, but he is still sick so will keep it short.

I am trying to go out there and have fun. I am trying to open my heart for other possibilities. But...., I still miss XBF. Even though we never lived together, after 5 years, I felt as if we were a family, it is very difficult to NOT remember him in every aspect of life.

Thanks GG...,



Very insightful and makes sense. Specially the "it's never enough" part. I'm sure I was doing things that made him feel unloved unintentionally, but when he complained, I changed that. I always baked a birthday cake for his birthday but one year we were busy, I bought a cake and did not make it. He later complained that I didn't bake it, he is not getting the special treatment anymore..., so I baked a cake the following year. Besides, I always baked other type of stuff for him on the regular basis but I guess that wasn't enough... When he complained that I wear jeans to go see a movie and not making our date more special, I started to wear skirts and dresses all the time, I almost always wore skirts when we went out afterwards. I think I did my best to please him. I am not perfect, so made some mistakes but I listened to his complaints and tried to change that. I kept asking him to sometimes express love verbally, but he never did because he did not believe in it. Yet he believes I failed to make him feel loved..., despite he appreciated my intelligence, looks, cooking skills, athletic ability, and being a good mother, and despite he loves my son..., he rather ends our relationship. I feel so not worthy. I feel so inadequate.

This screams ... a man who pursues a woman in a relationship does not have good boundaries.

This is why Dr. Harley suggests there be no SF outside of marriage. It harms all involved and creates a false sense of relationships. It automatically produces a freeloader mentality, and at best the person may become a renter.

Stick to men who will only have SF inside marriage ... then you know you will have a buyer on your hands.

QFT*





* If you aren't familiar with the abbreviations, that stands for "Quoted for Truth."

I completely agree with GG - sounds like NEITHER of you felt loved enough in the relationship, so what is there to try to get back to? Feelings of not being loved? WHY??

As for this:


Looks like a shark is smelling blood in the water and is circling for the kill, I'd be really careful (not physically, but emotionally).

AGG

Thanks Pray and Fred.

I am not worried about this guy, as I am not interested in him in a romantic way. I told him I was in a relationship before, and he just wanted to stay friends. We occasionally talked on the phone or he would forward some jokes by email but I mostly didn't even respond. He would ask for my advice when he was changing jobs, etc., so it's been just a friendship. We have met up for lunch once or twice a year prior to my breaking up with XBF, when he was doing business near my office but we mostly kept in touch via occasional phone calls (and mostly the calls were about work, friends, etc.). He had asked me a couple of times if I could come help him out picking a suit and shoes but I didn�t do that either. When he felt I was down, he would say "I would feel better if I made him my BF", but I usually just laughed at his jokes.

He had similar situation, that he was with this woman for 5 years and he was very close to her children too, but after 5 years she wanted to get married. She pressured him and they broke up. Soon after that she got married to someone else, apparently that devastated him so much - the whole thing sounds to similar to mine, but I just did not understand his motives and emotions - he obviously loved her. He was devastated that his XGF married someone else. BUT he didn't marry her when she wanted to marry. That is just so counterproductive to me. I asked him about it. He said he just couldn't, he wasn't ready to get married. I asked him if she wanted to get back together back then, if he would have..., he said yes. I don't understand, why they did he break up with her? He is almost the same age as my XBF and has never been married either.

Because he has gone through the same situation, I asked him some questions last weekend. He said "well if you still love him then call him up and ask him to get back together", which prompted my call last weekend. I haven't really spoken to him since, but he texted me to check on me how I was doing several days later. I told him I was not doing so well, that I miss XBF. That's when he said he has an idea, let's go see a funny movie.

I am not doing as badly as last night in terms of missing XBF. But I still do. Why did he have to attach pictures to his email? Why he can let me go so easily while he still has feelings enough to cry? He is coming home today, I do not know what time though. I feel that he (1) sort of wants that I do not respond so there will be no more drama, we are officially done and (2) wants to see my response so he could continue to be involved in DS�s life, and maybe in mine too a little but in the meantime he could continue his search for new love online.
I hate putting myself in this lack of confidence mode. Keeping distance is the BEST way to protect my emotional well-being. But I am a competitive person in nature, I feel that I need to counter argue his points, even though I know that is a waste and I read in some books that men NEVER change their mind just because their GF�s try to convince them. No way to win this battle for me�.

MS, Why did he attach photos to the email? Because he lacks empathy and compassion. And for what it's worth, he didn't let you go easily. This has been a very messy break up, which is part of the problem.

Why get into a debate where there is no winning? The only way to win this time is to not play.

How many months or even years of your life do you want to spend thinking and strategizing how to win this man back? A man that you recognize you are not compatible with?

Life is short, MS, and it's getting shorter. Move on.

Now regarding your friend... Have a good time with him. Just be wary. My guess is his strategy is that you spend a lot of time with him!

Came back from the movie. Mr. COO whom I was supposed to meet up later on today is still sick as a dog, coughing and has fever so we canceled our date, which is fine with me because I am tired and want to go to bed early tonight.

We saw Descendent with George Clooney. What part of that is funny??? It was a very good movie but very sad, I jokingly told my friend "hey, you are supposed to cheer me up but this made me even sadder"; he knew it was a good movie but didn't know what it was all about.

We talked about my and his relationships. We just sat in the lobby of the theater and talked for hours after the movie. I told him my struggles with XBF and he opened up a lot to tell me lots of his relationship history. He had several key relationships where he had talked about marriage, and yet he never did - he never even got engaged. I realized that he has always been subconsciously attracted to �unavailable� women so that he did not have to make a commitment. And when they became available (like they divorced or came out of the previous relationships), he lost interest. And when the women were pushing him to make the commitment, he felt cornered and left the relationship. They usually kept in touch for a while but at some point women said "enough is enough, I do not want to go on like this" and completely stopped the contact - then he always felt devastated and tried to reconcile with them, but no women took him back afterwards.

He admitted that it was a good point (that he was subconsciously looking for a woman with whom he did not have to be committed to). The more I spoke to him, actually more I was discouraged about my situation because it�s probably the same with my XBF � he is subconsciously afraid of the commitment so that whenever it gets close to the decision-making moment, he comes up with all the excuses and/or complaints about me so that he could postpone the decision.

GG, I know. Life is too short. I do NOT want to waste my time anymore. It�s just I keep wondering WHY he said it is about our ability to compromise�why he was crying�.why he attached the pics of us� maybe he TRULY feels that only if I made him feel he is loved then he would want to get back� when my XH wanted to come home, it was too late but I still remember what a waste it was, the whole mis-matched timing. When I wanted to work on it he did not want to and when I was finally over with him he wanted to come back. Life is just so twisted and unfair.

One thing I was thinking, though while I was driving. Life definitely throws lots of challenges. I wonder why often. BUT here I am, none of you guys have met me, but I feel you are all cheering me with a big huge flag saying "hang on, don't give up, you can make it!". When I thought about it, I knew that life is not all that bad either. Than you all for your support.

I don't know whether you and this man have a future together or not, but I think is good that he can talk to you this way. Who knows maybe he is having his 'lightbulb' moment about why his life has gone so badly so far and he will work to correct himself so he can be a good mate to someone if that is what he wants in life.

Same with you. I hope you can find a man who wants to be WITH you and not just after 7 p.m. on Saturday night and breakfast Sunday morning. That isn't enough MS. You deserve more.

I agree with PI about the sex issue. That once you let sex into a relationship you don't 'think' the same way and you cannot be as rational. Even if you do not have religious reasons for keeping sex in marriage, there are some very good practical ones. So I hope you will get really focused on yourself, your son, what YOU both need and work toward that. If a man comes a long who fits in, great. If not, enjoy your life anyway. It sounds like you DO enjoy your life and that it is busy, but I hope you can stop pining after the shadow of your XB because what you wanted it to be it never was and never will be.


I am happy your friend was able to give you the 'male' insight to that type of man....in the way that AGG isn't able to because he isn't that type of man. But it shouldn't discourage you to 'see' the type of man your XB is...it should ENcourage you because it is HIM not you that is the problem. The only problem you have is your picker. And your willingness to settle for less than you want/deserve in a man.


He was crying, he was manipulating, because he wants what he had with you. Which was a 'relationship' where he didn't have to put much effort into keeping you around. For five years. I'm sure he has feelings for you, but he is an immature, selfish man and you are better off without him.


I've experienced the cheering from the board here and I'm happy to repay.

Thanks SW. No, I was never attracted to my friend in a romantic way, and especially now I know who he really is (he is not a bad guy, he is always positive and helping his friends and family, but he is just not a good relationship material), I would be beyond crazy to even consider any 'future' with him.
I do agree with you, it was actually very helpful to speak to him to get the males� perspective. Like you said, AGG and many others on this board are different types of men, so it was truly eye-opening experience to hear my friend�s stories.
Ironically, he has told me numerous times �MS, you are such a quality woman, you deserve better, when you find the right person, you would know. It should never be this tough to have a good relationship. The fact you are working so hard, this is the wrong relationship�. This sounds like the same healthy advice I have been getting on this board, right? Yet it is coming from a guy who himself has lots of relationship troubles. This is one of the reasons I sometimes do not believe in it because I have seen so many �bad examples� telling me things like that.
My friend DID meet good women, and he did have many long-term relationships. I told him �I�m sorry if this comes across sounding like I am judging you, but it does look like to me it is YOU and not them. You have dated many different women in different ages, background, circumstances, personalities, life goals, etc. One thing that is common is that each time they started wanting you to make the life-time commitment, you got angry or frustrated and ended the relationships�. He did not deny it at all. He in fact agreed �I noticed that too, I know it�s ME�. Well, so it really didn�t matter whether he met the �right� person or not. I believe he did, but it still didn�t work out. That�s where I got discouraged. I know XBF and I have differences, but it is true we are very attracted to each other and he did meet quite a few things on my needs (not the emotional side but honesty, hard-working nature, good looks, intelligence, high education, athletic ability, and the fact he truly loved my son). But it doesn�t matter. He does not want to make such commitment. He believes if it�s with the �right� person, it should not be this hard. Just like my friend believes, XBF believes if it�s hard then it�s a wrong match. It�s an abusive way to interrupt the whole �right� person theory I think. And this is why I got frustrated that he does not see it that way.

My XBF's personality is different from this friend, and I am sure he is not even aware that he is another 'commitment phobia'. He may actually not be, as he has brought up 'marriages' many times in our early relationship when I was not ready to make the big move. Maybe he honestly felt that I did not love him enough so he got cold feet when he thought about marriage. But then we should have had the talk to see what is missing on his end and my end. I have told him about spending more time together, but he basically told me �this is who I am". As for not being able to say ILY, "I do not believe in saying it". As for not calling me much and having conversation often, he said �I�m not the phone conversation kind of guy, I rather do something together�. As for not just dropping a simple line or text or call just to let me know he is thinking about me when we are not together, �I am a practical guy, you need to appreciate that�. As for his yelling, while he each time admitted that he was wrong, in the end he said �but you should know by now after so many years together that it�s just how I am and it does not mean I am actually angry at you�.

The point is, I do not feel he was willing to see my points of view. I do believe I tried to improve things he felt missing - playing golf with him, not complaining about his golfing, always making myself look pretty when we went out, ordering food HE can eat even if it�s for me at restaurant so we can share (he has many items he cannot eat so if I just pick what I like, he won�t be able to taste mine, so I never got to order what I wanted), letting DS learn golfing, and many other things he had complained about.

So I do believe even though he might have genuinely felt I did not love him the way he wanted me to, if he chose to ignore the fact at least I made an effort while he did not do so as much - and yet using that as a reason, along with other silly reasons like our having two houses to sell, to avoid the life-time commitment, to me, that is still a sign that he was coming up with excuses so that he did not have to make the move.

You are still thinking about XBF on a daily basis...maybe see if you can go a day without mentioning him once, as you begin to do that, maybe he will lessen in your mind. It comes across as almost obsessed, so it might require an actual effort to change the habit.

It seems your "date" was insightful...I hope you continue to view him as "not relationship material" because it's too similar to what you just got out of. I hope you can find someone enjoyable to date where it's just light and fun.

Yes. You are obsessed. Retrain your brain. If you come this board, journal about OTHER things. When he settles into your mind, shove him away.

Ouch! But you are so right KC. I noticed that too myself. But believe it or not, even though I posted the rather long comments, this morning I felt better. I did feel a bit lighter compared to a week or even just 2 days ago. Because I do feel that I have tried enough to let XBF know what I wanted (the full commitment), while he is just not capable of responding to my simple and natural needs.

And although you do sound a bit obsessed I also recognize that you probably are doing all your venting here...not in real life.

I think some ppl (mostly women) just need to talk things out to make themselves feel better about a situation. I always feel better when I talk something out.

I wish we could just say whatever happens, happens and not obsess/talk/worry about it. That's not me though. I remember being this way as a teenager so it's not because of my divorce that I'm like I am (not totally anyway). I don't know how anyone can change that???

Yes I am releasing all of my frustration and sadness and grief here...., sorry for using the board as a sandbag Otherwise I am afraid I end up contacting XBF.

This afternoon, I did have a brief moment when I could honestly say I was excited about meeting 'the one' who is better and right for me in the future. For no apparent reason the happy thought crossed my mind when I was washing my hands in a lady's room, LOL, but I am not going to psycho-analyze what that means (the fact it popped up while in a bathroom .

I am just like you Prissanna. I wish I do not worry or obsess this much, but I have grown up in a society/culture where they taught us that good things will happen to you as long as you are being good and work hard. So I still to this date try to control situations by trying harder. It is very difficult for me to accept the reality, especially when the situation seems unfair. Also I have always been analytical, which often makes it harder to live in this world because many things in life cannot be logically explained. How are you doing Prissanna? Didn't you say you might be having a 'date' next month?

I still don't know that I'm going to 'do it'. lol It's not really a date, just a friendly thing. I actually haven't talked to him in a few weeks. That doesn't bother me (which is amazingly good for the type person I am) but I'm still indecisive as to whether or not to take this risk to our friendship. And the fact that it doesn't bother me to not have heard from him lets you know I'm not interested in that way huh?


How the heck did you get two dates in one weekend? I've had some offers (and declined all so far :-( (except my crush and we all know where that ended up - me an insane obsessive mess) but none are falling over me since my divorce. lol When it actually comes down to it I don't know that I would ever have the nerve to date. Sorry. Didn't mean to hijack. I have read your story and kept up with it because we seem to be much alike. You make me feel normal cause we are so much alike. lol

I don't believe this.

My friend (the guy I went to see a movie with on Sunday) called me this morning. He sounded down so I asked what happened. You wouldn't believe this either.

He said what I told him - that he was following a pattern where he was always choosing unavailable women (married or being in a relationship) subconsciously - really made him think, and he did not like to be that way. So he talked to his GF (that he was sort of treating like a casual GF previously). He told her "maybe we should talk about our future".

To his surprise, she did not get excited about it, and instead, told him "you have no idea what you are getting into. You have a wonderful life, you get to do whatever you like whenever you like. My life is crazy with 4 children. You have no idea how my life is like".

He told me "I never had a woman who did not get excited about marriage; she is the first one who seems hesitated". And now he feels very sad.

I told him I know exactly what his GF meant by what she said. I actually told my XBF the exact same thing when he wanted to discuss future but I did not feel ready or I did not feel he was ready. I told XBF "you have been single all your years, and all you had to worry about has been yourself. Your work, house, health, and your hobbies/interest = golfing. You don�t even have a pet to take care of. I have to worry about the exact same things as you PLUS my son's well-being, school work, emotional needs, financial needs, future, I am responsible for another human being. But I gladly sacrifice my needs over my son�s. I am not sure if you are okay sacrificing your needs over someone else�s". What a flashback.

So I told my friend that his GF knows how my friend lives - he is also very busy, always out with his friends playing golf, biking, hunting, whatever. Which is great, as an individual, but not as a family member/partner.

Strangely, now it seems the table is turned and my friend sounded desperate and said to me "but MS, I do not want to be like that. I do not think I will ever be able to have my own children now, it's too late - and I would love to watch my GF's kids grow because they grow up so fast, I want to share that".

When I asked about his interests, the fact he is always gone over the weekends, that he is used to the freedom but he cannot do that if he gets married � sure he can still have fun and pursue his interests, but it has to balance out with the family life once he gets married, if he thinks he will resent that then he will not be happy not to mention his GF or her kids - he said "no, I'm past that, I have done enough for myself".

Gee how I wish I wanted to hear these words from my XBF!!! Still it felt good that at least one single guy who has been avoiding the lifetime commitment seems to have had the light bulb moment. I really hope things will work out for him, but his GF is being smart being cautious. I even told my friend that she is a smart lady and is a keeper

Prissanna,if you do not 'dislike' this guy, even though it does not sound like you two have the sparks at this point, it's often better to go slow anyway, so I would say 'go out with him'!

I know KC gave me the same advice on my DS's coach, but he is just not for me, I have zero interest so I wouldn't... but if I had even an ounce of interest, I would have. The guy whom I could not meet up this weekend because he was sick - he is not perfectly my type either, but there are certain qualities I admire, so that is why I have gone out with him.

I noticed that you do lots of 'analyzing' too, lol, we make our own lives harder and crazier But what can we do, that's who we are right??

OK, help me out here MS... Are you talking about the same guy in all these posts?


And this:


If this is the same guy, he sounds like a parasite to me. Aside from always choosing married women, he was pursuing you while having a GF?? WTF? I would tell his GF with 4 kids whom he "wants to marry" that her BF is wooing other women... That should help her make the right decisions about this guy.

AGG

He was pursuing me on and off for the past several years. But I was with XBF, so I declined his offer. He wanted to stay friends with me so we kept in touch via occasional phone calls or emails. I had no idea that he had a GF (sounds like he started seeing her about a year ago), but since we were not dating and I was never interested in him that way, I never even asked.

When I heard that he has a GF, I asked him why he was pursuing me then and he said because it's not serious. Obviously he wasn't honest. But isn't that still good that now he admits that he was fearful of committment and now he is ready to overcome such fear, and he will try to be honest and less selfish?

AGG is always a wise man..., now your post is making me review the whole incident in a completely different way.

Your advice is always spot on. Did you ever experience that you have done so wrong in a relationship and feel such a failure? If so, how did you overcome that and regain confidence?

I got excited about my friend turning around the corner but you are right, he is not being truthful towards his GF. I was focusing on his �a-ha� moment and giving him a credit for trying to make the change, despite the fact he was pursuing me while he had a GF. I tend to think 'but he is still a good man, he offers so and so...', about anyone, that's how I have always been towards men I got involved in with, which is probably my insecurity that is making me behave like that. And that insecurity is steming from my divorce.

AGG has good points.

As for your friend, anytime we have a serious character flaw we have to begin somewhere in our questo to fix ourselves...and the fallout from that is painful. In his situation, to fully fix himself he would need to be fully honest with his GF to be sure she understands that he hasn't been a stand up guy during the relationship and he wants to turn over a new leaf.

Aha moments are good....I always wonder if my WXH had his Aha with me divorcing him...will he now be the faithful mate for his ow/gf? It is depressing but the fact is he had done so much to me that there was no way for him to repair his relationship with me. With a new gf, if he so desires he can say, 'look I've been a sorry man my entire adult life and hurt a lot of people, but I want to be differnet now.' And to someone he will seem a good man and maybe even BE a good man.

I don't beleive in holding something (even a lifelong patter) against someone for ever, especially if there is real evidence of change.

Milkshake, I was not trying to criticize you, I hope you did not take it that way. I was just cranky with your friend, who pursued you while he had a GF, or you had a BF, or both. That on top of him pursuing married women in the past. Ugh.

I agree about a-ha moments being good, but what I see here is not an a-ha moment as in "I need to change my behavior so I can be a better person". Rather, I see him think "oh crap, I may end up all alone, so I need help finding a way to reel in GF, milkshake, somebody"... This is a person who is still being immature and selfish, and has not really had an epihpany. At least that is my take.

Do you have any friends who are not selfish overgrown boys with self-absorbed hobbies, but who believe in marriage, or at least in monogamy and commitment? I think they might be good for you .

AGG

You are right, that is how women process things in their brain, by talking it out.

And AGG is right, if the guy was after you when he had someone else, not goodQ

I think she realizes that...and isn't interested in him. She is just more interested in the possibility of a man changing.

It is possible right?

AGG, no, I did not take it that way, no worry. I was disappointed at my friend when I learned that he had a GF while he was asking me to make him my BF, because I always thought he was a man of honor with good spirits. He helps out his aunts, sisters and friends, and even though I was never interested in him as a potential romantic partner, I wanted to stay friends with him too because of his personality. Also when he told me about his past relationships on Sunday, it was the first time I learned how he was always pursuing unavailable women.


Ideally, you want your partner to want to marry you because he/she loves you, but isn't it also good that people can adjust their unrealistic and irresponsible expectation/fantasy? For example, my friend has stayed single because he wanted to continue to play the field, but now he may realize that he is trading in his current fun for his future loneliness. I think it�s still good that he realizes that there is no free-riding. You will always end up paying the price for your actions/choices.

My XBF has said to me several times �I love golf but I know that golf clubs cannot keep me warm at night or take care of me when I get old, but my partner can. That is why my brother is so lucky to have his wife�. His brother can continue to play golf like a single guy (his wife tags along his practice and tournaments, plays golf with him, and even caddies for him. Their vacations are always decided by XBF�s brother which are obviously golf related and his wife just goes wherever he wants to go to) and yet at night he can be with his wife. I always knew that for XBF, his brother has the BEST and IDEAL marriage. Yet ironically XBF often criticized his brother for being selfish, and always told me that he was not like his brother. When I asked XBF if he wishes I was more like his sister-in-law where I would do everything and anything, he did not deny, he just said that I would not need to carry his bags

Anyway, not sure if it�s necessarily a bad thing when an individual who used to be irresponsible and selfish realize the consequences and out of fear he wants to change his behavior, you know?

Good morning. My emotions are still swinging from one extreme to another...

Sometimes I honestly can believe that it was good we ended our relationship, that otherwise I would end up wasting more time and also this pain will bring me future happiness someday. Also sometimes I do not feel that much pain anymore and can be positive about my future.

Other times I am still scared that I'm spoiling the slightest chance I might have had by not responding to his email (I NEVER ignored his calls/emails during our relationship in 5 years even when we had some argument/disagreement). Because he has always been that way: I or his friend had to contact him first, he would never initiate contact even if he misses the person secretly - he is the kind of person who could just rationalize the situation - "well if I do not hear from him/her, this is it, and I will accept that". So when I think of the possibility, I feel "gosh, I need to do something about it!"

As Prissanna said, I wish I had more relaxed personality where I could completely believe in "things will work out just fine and if it's meant to be, it will happen", and just sit back. That's just not me.

Agreed. What I am differentiating between is someone who changes their behavior because they had an epiphany and wanted to change themselves versus somone who changes their behavior because they want to influence someone. The former is more likely to be permanent, the latter temporary.


If you knew that this was how your BF felt about marriage, I am surprised you stayed with him for five years. It sounds like he did exactly what his brother did - enjoyed his single life, but had a warm body to spend the night with. Weird.

AGG

Yes I know. Guess I wanted to believe that b/c he was so attracted to me that his expectations would evolve over time.

Milkshake, we gotta talk ...



AGG

Milkshake, I saw this on Pinterest last night and thought about you.

Thnaks AGG and Prissanna. I cannot see what you attached (it's being blocked at work), Prissana, but I will check it out later tonight at home.

AGG's response made me laugh. Thanks for lightening up my day.

Just saw the attachment Prissanna. This is too funny!

Someone put some sense in me pls..., having another anxiety attack where I feel like I NEED to ask if he is open to counseing... Just because he will NEVER contact me again if I did not respond to his email. Agh.

DON'T DO IT!!!!

Hon, if you're seriously having an anxiety attack over this, you might consider talking to your doctor about anti-anxiety meds.

Keep banging my head When I think of something else, now I can sort of switch XBF off of my mind, even if it's brief. So I think I am making a progress. But then when I feel like I would never meet a guy with his qualities again, it makes me feel desperate.

I'm with Kirby....just keep pushing him out of your mind! He is NOT the one for you!

But he is a good looking guy with brains and succssful occupation... how many guys are like that and single???

Good-looking with brains and a successful career?
Darlin' they're a dime a dozen.

Good-looking with brains, a decent job, solid morals, and a synergy with you? Those are harder to find, and impossible to find when you are settling for the dime-a-dozen.

Kick Mr. Wrong out of your mind, and start looking around. Fix yourself up a little. I personally always change my hair with any major life upheaval. If nothing else, treat yourself to a new lip stick.

Put on self-confidence the way you would pantyhose. Do it intentionally, and wear it with swagger (not arrogance, but panache). You'll have a lot of men beating down your door, and you can choose.

Oh milkshake, there are so many things wrong with this statement that I don't even know where to start. First, GG's answer is right - a dime a dozen. Shoot, half the guys on this forum probably qualify. Second, I don't care how good looking, brainy, or successful your XBF was - he is, forgive me, a loser. A guy who views the ideal marriage as one where he plays golf, has his wife caddy for him, and have her keep him warm at night, is not a man, but a boy. Sorry to be blunt on this, but it's true. Being a man means dealing with your responsibilities, and your X sounds like a college kid, and I am being generous here. You seem like a smart, attractive, and "together" woman - don't settle for a boy.

AGG

GG and AGG (hey, it rhymes!), thanks! You have NO IDEA how encouraging these words are. So you really think there are many of them, eh? And AGG's post totally made me laugh - thanks for being so blunt, I LOVED it!!

I like GG's idea of making changes to my hair. I can't even remember when was the last time I ever had different hair style than what I have now. Changes sound GOOD. I am getting excited about the idea...

I'm glad, but I also hope that you take what I wrote to heart - I meant it!

MS, we wanna see pics when you change your hair! Before and after!!! Sounds fun!

I'd like to restate AGG's idea. Milkshake, you are NOT looking for "guys." You are looking for a MAN! Personally, I look for MAN first and Gentleman second. "Guys" can be gentlemen, but never are Men. (AGG is the exception, but he's not a guy in spite of his tag name.)

Here are some things that I use to weed out guys or boys from men.

1. If they are in a band that plays together more than once a month.
2. If they belong to more than one men's sporting club. IE they play in a softball and a volleyball league.
3. Sailors (not in the Navy sense, but sailboat sense) This is a prejudice from my youth spent on a sailboat.
4. If they emphasize "sponteneity"
5. If they are daredevils, or adrenelin junkies.
6. If they treat their girlfriends as if they were sport cars.
7. If when you ask them about the weekend, and they never mention the words "chores" or "errands."


For men reading, the females can be divided similarly. There are Women and there are Princesses. Princesses often look good on the outside, but scratch the surface, and you have demanding, spoiled girls. And yes, there is such a thing as a Tom-boy princess. Instead of diamonds, she expects regular heli-skiing trips to Chile in July, and sucba diving in the Seychelles in February.

GG, what an awesome post! They should make a sticky out of it on this board for all the newcomers.

So many people are conditioned through movies etc to value the very things that do not lead to good relationships ("fun" instead of "commitment", "play" instead of "home life", etc).

It is a sign of maturity (emotional, not physical) when we are able to weed away the snazz factor, and look for stability and dependability. I personally find that way sexy.

Milkshake, I hope you are paying attention to GG's words, because I think I am sensing that you are very attached to your XBF's external qualities (good looks, fun, good job) and are ignoring that he is completely lacking in the truly important qualities (communication, commitment, partnership). Think about it.

AGG, er, AGM

GG, do you know many single guys who do not fit in 1 and 2? Almost everyone I got to know have things they enjoy doing over the weekend and they claim they are 'happy' with themselves. I honestly believe once you have a family, you will have to spend the majority of time with your family, other than your work, of course, and the remainder can be spent alone or with your friends. But it seems men I have met so far all said they need lots of 'alone' time. Where do I need to go to find men who are okay spending time with their family on weekends?

Every book and article I have read, they say men do need some free time to spend alone or with their buddies. I agree with that, and I need some time for myself too, but it seems the definition of 'some' is VERY different from what I think appropriate, and that is why I had revised my expectation to reflect the reality.

You need to start meeting different men, milkshake.

I did most of my dating online, and I learned fairly quickly to weed out profiles that were not suitable for me. Words like "spontaneous", "fun", "willing to try anything once", "passionate about scuba/skydiving/boating/skiing", "my dog is my best friend", etc etc, all became red flags to me. In contrast, women who mentioned gardening, reading, movies, art, hiking, were much more of my type.

I never looked at guys' profiles, but I suspect in your case you should be avoiding GG's list of words ("play in band", "enjoy playing in all sports") and look for more family oriented tell tale signs ("home improvement", "cooking", etc).

There are TONS of single men who would make good husbands, you just need to make sure that your picker is tuned to those men, and not to overgrown fun boys. Based on your XBF and your movie date, I have my concerns .

BTW, there is nothing wrong with needing alone time. I like to spend time on some weekends tinkering with cars or working on the house, while my wife enjoys reading or going on hikes alone. It works well for us. But notice that neither of us is into extremes , like ski every weekend, or disappear for the whole day every weekend, etc. It's keeping your hobbies in check that is the key. And most importantly, we set aside lots of quality together time, which makes up for the alone time.

AGG

My husband Mike was 44when we first met. He had never married and had no kids. A red flag for me. He also owned FOUR cars. Another red flag. But he liked routine. He had a house and he gardened. He worked a lot but was cutting back because he wanted to find someone. He liked going out to dinner, travel andmovies.

I am not sure how old you are MS but if you are out of your20s you should not assume they will give up their way of life when they have a family or girlfriend. Me that are. Good candidates are hard to find. Online dating can make it easier once you recognize buzz words.

Just cross posted with AGG, a.k.a AGM

AGG, you are right. I am/was attracted to some of XBF's internal qualities, such as responsibility, dependability, and hard-working nature. These are qualities, unfortunately, my XH lacked completely. So I thought I was doing better in screening men.

However, quickly - soon as we started dating, I often felt XBF was selfish in a different way from XH, and cold (no sympathy or empathy towards others), very negative about everything in life, and always shifting blames to others. If he loves golfing so much that he spends most of the weekends away from me, at least I wanted to see him being 'happy' when he comes back from the games to come see me. I wanted to hear him say "oh it was a great day! I had so much fun". Then at least I could feel that golfing was really doing him good.

But he was always cranky, and whenever I asked how the game was, he never ever said "great". He always responded "disappointing", "frustrating", "bad", �worse than ever�, etc. Then if I tried to cheer him up by saying how I think great his play is, how his score is better than previous times, how at least he enjoys being outside playing his favorite sport, how the weather was beautiful, etc. something positive. But it somehow almost always annoyed him. He always told me that I 'do not understand'. "Golf is the hardest sport", that is what he always told me. The fact I was trying to say positive things made him feel that I did not understand his frustration or the golfing sport itself. Or maybe he was just throwing a tantrum because he did not play as well as he wanted to.
Since I never ever hear anything positive, for a few times I did not ask how his game was, then he complained big time! He said I was not being supportive. When I told him that it was because no positive words came out of his mouth and I wanted to hear that he had a good time playing, he told me I was the one being negative to feel that way about him. He said if I was really in love with him, I should never feel he was being negative and support him all the way.

So AGG, yes, I probably always knew that I was not �in love� with XBF�s inner qualities. That is why I was never excited about him as a person, which obviously he sensed. But over time there are certain things he improved and also I came to realization that no one is perfect and I should not view him that way, and when I started accepting his behaviors/way of thinking/selfishness and wanted to get married (because he is good looking and has a good job and because we have invested so much time already), he pulled away.

When I discovered a lot of secrets about XH (addictions, affairs, lies, etc.), I did the same thing. I came up with a lot of excuses for him and told myself �everyone has flaws��

Same thing about the men I have met � they all said it is painful to spend weekends as a family all the time �well not all of them, but A LOT OF THEM. I must say these words came mostly from either guys who have never been married before and/or those who have never had kids. Guys who have been married before and/or have had kids, they at least seem to understand the reality of family life and demands and responsibility, whether they choose to honor such responsibility or not.

Alone time or getting together with friends is not the same as reliving your glory days in sports, or having several time consuming hobbies like cyclingandgolf and hunting.

Also people have different needs for time alone. This speaks to compatibility. You need to find someone with the same level. If you need 5 hours a week tobeby yourself, but your man needs 20,you'll have a problem. Also people have different levels of comfort when it come to emotional intimacy. Openness&honesty.OH is a low need for me, and if a man wants to hear all my deepest thoughts all the time, I feel smoothered and invaded. He would feel shut out and like I didn't care.

Get some books on compatibility. When you understand where you fall on a variety of scales, you can choose better. Based on AGGs posts over the years, Ibet that he is a planner and probably has a similar risk tolerance to me. When I date I look at things that way. Some times I haves dated men I liked who were fun, butI quickly realized that they were not candidates for a serious relationship, and I guarded my heart.

Ah, and isn't that an old-fashioned idea? Guard your heart. Be ready to walk away. Realize that all relationships in this world end, it's just a matter of when and how. This makes it a little easier for me to deal with rejection or hurting someone else's feelings.

I do not think I am looking for a 'fun' guy, AGG... I thought I have always been looking for a stable family man. Out of curiosity, why 'my dog is my best friend' was a red flag for you? I am an animal lover, so just curious...

As for my friend, yes, he is totally NOT a serious relationship material. Now I know for sure. He is still trying to convince his GF to agree to marry him, yet in the meantime he told me he is jealous that I am going out with other guys and had a nerve to ask me to NOT go see them! I told him that I do not belong to him and I could not believe he is telling me this while he is trying to marry his GF. So I am very glad that I never ever considered him as a candidate

GG, my XBF also owns a house and two fancy cars. He does take a very good care of the house and gardens though. But your husband was willing to make changes to be a family man? It must be YOU then who made him want to make such changes and to make the commitment. What is it that I am doing that makes guys feel it is okay for them to continue doing what they want while keeping me around? What is it that they feel I do not love them enough?

I am not sure now of my ability to weed out bad candidates. I do not know much about this COO friend, other than the fact he is a great father to his 3 kids (they were raised by their mother but the youngest one who is 18 chose to stay with him several years back, so he has been the residential parent), he has a very mild temper, and works very hard. He is busy, given that he is the partner of this firm, and he works out a lot. He goes to a gym during the lunch time and he does a lot of biking and running with his cousin on weekends. He is now challenging for a 100-mile biking as well as marathon I believe. So even though he seems like a nice family man, again, he has something that may take up a lot of his weekend time. I wonder if this is another red flag..., more importantly, at this point I am not that attracted to him yet, which might be a bigger red flag He has told me he 'loves' me a couple of times, we do exchange a lot of long emails with our inner thoughts, but I don't understand how he can say he loves me when he does not really know me.

I am scared now I will see red flag everywhere on every guy I see. Besides, I love dogs...

I was afraid of ruffling feathers, didn't mean to . I love animals too, though I'm more of a cat person. What I was talking about is that I found that some women, and of course I don't mean all, expected their partners to look at them with the same unconditionally loving, adoring eyes that their dogs do. Guess what, won't happen. Men are usually (hopefully) more complex than "give me food and I will love you forever".




I'm not GG, but I am perceiving that you are trying too hard to get men to love you, sort of "if I love them enough and change myself enough, they will love me". I don't think that works. I want a woman who knows herself and does not compromise her integrity. When you start being overly flexible to get the man to love you, they won't respect you, because you are teaching them that you will accept whatever they give you. Remember the most important adage - people treat you the way you allow yourself to be treated.


He can't love you, at most he can love the idea of you, but not you as a person. I'd view it as a red flag - love requires cultivation and time together, not the feelings of "wow, she's hot, I'm in love" .

AGG

Maybe he is smart enough to know he is isn't all that lovable and that is why you don't really love him the way he wants to be loved even though he knows he isn't all that lovable. !!!

The interaction you described with your XB is a BIG deal MS. Hard to feel at ease in a relationship like that huh? No conversation with my XH ever seemed to 'flow' happily. I was always 'practicing' my comments ahead of time and anticipating what he would say and my response. Crazy way to live.

I will give you a simple example of a WONDERFUL (to me) conversation with my current dh. We were talking on the phone when a friend texted me to tell me she was having to drop out of our weight loss competition. I texted back (while on phone still with dh) and said, 'why?!' She says, "I'm pregnant." I screamed into the phone and told dh. He was so happy too. I could hear the joy in his voice. They got married last July (2nd marriage for both, this child will be their 6th and she will be 40 this year). And yet....both dh and I felt joy for them. We chattered on about it for a bit then I hung up to call my friend...later that night he texted me asking me all about it. Interested. Joyful about a baby.

My XH? He would have turned his nose up as if he was smelling something bad and go on to list all the negatives of this situation--in his opinion of course. His mood would put a real damper on my joy....and he would never ask another word about it except perhaps in a year or so say, 'did friend ever had that kid?'

Do you see the difference? Am I explaining myself propertly.

And it wouldn't just be that he thinks it is a bad idea to have a baby in their situation...I was thinking about this and last night dh and I were at McD with a group of friends talking about our pregnant friend. (she wasn't there) There was lots of good natured kidding about it....wide eyes, shocked looks from the ones who were just being informed....but it felt like they were at least INTERESTED even if they were like 'better them than me!'

XH was/is so disconnected and selfish.

I sooooo appreciate my dh and our easy conversations.

They are out there. I promise.

You need to find a different circle of men.

I mostly agree, but she did say they have been exchanging long heartfelt emails.

And also, the word 'love' is handled differently by different people. I don't think that every man who says it to me wants to spend the rest of his life with me.

Still and yet I agree it is probably a red flag.

The feeling of romantic love can arise pretty quickly in some people, particularly those with a high need for an attractive spouse. Those people can experience massive Love Bank deposits just by looking at their date or even at a complete stranger.

Whether or not they will commit to doing the things that sustain that feeling is a different matter.

Harley says to survive long term a relationship needs passion and logic. And it is easier to create passion if it does not exist than it is to make a relationship logical if it is not. If the logic is not there, the passion will likely eventually fizzle.

And he says to go to your friends and your family to find out if you are being logical, because when the passion is on, you won't be able to tell!

Yes. Very true. Dh and I both did this when we were dating. It was very helpful and reassuring especially since we had both one very stupid rebound relationship after our divorces. We certainly didn't ask for feedback from family/friends on those rebound relationships.

Do you do that MS? Do you have people in your life whose opinion you trust and who know you well enough to be able to offer opinions about the kind of man you need in your life?

Milkshake, my husband Mike had a lot of habits that made him ideal for a family man. First, he was a homebody. He didn't do a whole lot of partying or getting together with people. Second he liked routine. Third, he didn't want his own children at that point in life, but he wanted a family. He wanted dinner on the table by 6:30. He wanted Sunday mornings, and grocery shopping. He wanted homework.

For me, the cars were a red flag, not a bonus.

I did not change what he wanted. I was just the right mate for him.

MS, rather than ask why the guys think they can keep doing what they want and have you around, why not ask why you want to be around them when they are doing stuff you don't like?

See, when you're dating, the idea is to find someone you don't have to change for and who doesn't have to change for you. If they have behaviors you need changed, you should walk away. Changing behavior, especially when it deals with who we are, is very difficult. There's simply not enough at stake in a dating relationship to make that worth while.

Not all behavior rises to the level where we want to walk away. Mike never once said ILY first. Never. He never told me I was pretty. I noticed it, but honestly, after I brought it up once, I decided it was no big deal. His actions were clear, and for me, that was enough. For many if not most women that would be a dealbreaker.

Any mention of dogs being your best friend would be a warning sign to me. Mainly that the person didn't relate well to people.

I love it!

Interesting, your take on dog-lovers. My dog is my best friend and I relate very well to people, am a good communicator, loving, good at give and take and believe a relationship takes effort. I don't expect a man to view me the same as my dog; however, my late husband seemed to love me unconditionally, as much as any human can, it was very evident to all. The fact is, I don't have a man in my life, but I do have my dog and he means the world to me.

I think what GG and I are trying to say is that a dog, or any other animal for that matter, cannot be your friend. A pet is an animal, a friend is a human. This is not to take anything away from pets, it's just apples and oranges. You can't borrow 20 bucks from your dog, you can't ask him for a ride when your car breaks down, and he cannot tell you about all his problems. A dog can provide comfort and fun, but it is not a bilateral relationship like a true friendship is.

AGG

And really, Kay, it's unlikely you'd emphasize your relationship with your dog in your Match.com profile. I think that's where the disconnect comes in.

I think that happens pretty frequently with people who are unattached. A dog lover is a dog lover. They'll put that on match.com.

I have a lot of friends that are dog-lovers who would totally disagree with you on this. No, my dog is not a substitute for a husband, but he's very important to me, and so are my friends' dogs to them. It would be a red flag to me if someone was not a dog lover because they would not be compatible with me. By the same token, I'd want someone who is not a city boy, but a country boy that loves nature and animals. Nothing against city folk, they just aren't a match for me.

I guess you haven't heard the adage "man's best friend"?

That's the point I was trying to make - to me , someone who was that much into their pet was a sign of incompatibility, with me. Just like I would be a poor match to them. Obviously someone who considers their pet a better friend than their human friends should look for the same qualities in their partner.

I also found that I should avoid any extremism in my partner, I did much better with an "everything in moderation" type than someone who was an avid fill-in-the-blank. But again, that's just me - someone else may prefer to jump out of perfectly good airplanes every weekend, more power to them.

AGG

You know, it also strikes me that AGG and I both have children still at home. I think this makes a huge difference in how you view your pets.

It's interesting how we are very similar yet can be very different in certain aspects/preferences in life.

To me, if a guy does not show any compassion towards animals and little kids (because to me, they are both similar in a sense that they are powerless, helpless, innocent, and have to rely on us adults to survive), he is not a warm hearted person, but that's me. I do not believe any pets can replace humans, but it is like having another family member, a bit more like a child to me.

My DS had a spring program last night at his school. It was so cute, and made me realize how fast the time flies by. Soon he will be a teenager and will not like to be seen holding hands with me in front of his friends. XBF came to DS's piano recital and games and these music programs. It's the first time DS only had me attending the program, which did make me sad, but when I saw him being so happy and proud, I felt better. He is doing well. As long as DS is okay with it, I do not need to feel sorry for him at all. I was very proud of him.

I can see where this would be an accurate comment.

That's awesome about the music program! And I can assure you that your DS will be MUCH better off not growing up around the type of person that your XBF is, someone who is more focused on his hobby than on his family.

AGG

Thanks AGG. I began to calm down a bit and feel that I see things with more clear mind. I feel that something inside me just snapped and I finally came to the realization XBF loves himself so much that he just cannot imagine having a life where he is not the main character.

My friend called me on Friday when I was on my way to go to DS's school. He asked what I was doing so I told him DS is having a spring program and I was driving to his school. He said "MS, you are such a good mom, my GF is always busy too driving around her 4 kids to baseball, soccer, gymnastics, etc." I told him "yup, that's what we do as a parent", and told him if he thinks it's too much to do and he rather goes out on Fridays, then marrying his GF with 4 kids will not be the 'thing' for him. He said he understands that, and said his GF keeps telling him the same thing.

And he started to say something about my XBF, how XBF is like him..., for some reason I got irritated. Maybe because I sensed that my friend is again having the cold feet a bit, knowing how mothers around him - whether his GF, his sister, or I � are always busy taking care of our children.

I told him that I do not want to have a life where all I want need to do is to take care of myself. Life is not meaningful for me then. DS gave me the meaning of life to me, and I would never trade it in for anything.

My friend must have felt my irritation in my voice, and he told me he knows how to get XBF back... to get my attention? I don�t know, but I just got so annoyed by the whole thing. So I told him �you know what, that�s okay, because my XBF just wants to take care of his needs and that is how he has lived so far, and he does not want to change. He gave up something good to only satisfy his needs � and you know what, I began to think now that I don�t want that kind of person anyway�. He seemed to get shocked by my intense response, and I just told him that I had to go.

I am sure there still be moments where I miss XBF but seriously, I am upset how selfish he has been. He knows how busy I am, with work, house choir, DS, and also I help out my friends quite a bit. And I do not have any family members in this country to give me a hand. Yet, instead of trying to help me out with the choir, he complained that I did not treat him like a king?? Even though he had nothing else to do, other than work and pursuing his passion for golf? Basically everything he does is for himself.

I really hope I can do a better job next time screening out these guys who only care about their fun times. Aside from the COO friend, I have another prospect which I am reasonably excited about�, he is my age (COO friend is 5 years older), tall and handsome (sorry, external stuff, but I cannot help noticing these positives ;), and sounds reasonably intelligent. I do not know whole a lot about him yet, but yes, on a physical level, I am 200 times more attracted to this guy than the COO. However, he could be another XBF. I have to and will be very careful.

DS came down with a 102 fever last night, so we stayed home all day today. After some meds he felt a bit better and asked if he could help me cook, so I let him. I made five different dishes, and he helped with every single one of them.

Everything from scratch, and I explained why I do things in a certain way, what veggies need to go in before other veggies, and the reasons behind. He was listening carefully and told me that �once I learned how to cook, if YOU get sick, I will take care of you Mama�. It was so touching. Then after all the meals were cooked, after lots of chopping and peeling and marinating and stirring� he said �wow, being a mom is a lot of work!�. I hope when DS grows up to be a dad in the future he can pass on the tradition and can prioritize his family over his personal interests.

Sounds like you had a good epiphany Milkshake - stay away from selfish narcissistic men . I'll repeat what GG said, there are plenty of good fish in the sea, don't settle for the bottom crawlers .

AGG

I am going thru same emotions. My Ex hubby was not the one for me, despite me being loving and committed to him and his children. Apparently he stonewalled a lot while we were married and despised me I have just been recently told that fact.

Life can be so strange and changes constantly.

{{Sable}} You know that you did not do anything intentionally wrong or bad, and most importantly, you tried to make it work but he didn't.

I am actually amazed at how I am now....okay. I was beautifying our memories while closing eyes on many obvious red flags as you all pointed out. Also my friend being very similar to XBF helped wake me up. Life is good!

I am not in a position to diagnose, but your XBF does have some narcissistic qualities and Narcissists are to be RAN from! They do not make good partners or parents. My XH was a Narcisssist, I learned the hard way.

I am so proud of you MS, you are learning! I think sometimes we just have to get away from the person to let emotions die down enough to have clarity of mind. And you're getting there. I'm sure your friend was trying to "help you out" based on what you'd led him to believe you wanted, so he may feel your response was a little over the top, but it's a great sign that you no longer want XBF and it's good that the people in your life understand that so they can respond more appropriately to your needs.

Your son sounds like a sweetie! I'm sure it's because you've done a wonderful job with him.

And I agree with your remarks about having a dog; although I've had dogs all my life and they've always been considered a member of the family, they mean all the more to you when you've lost your spouse and you're an empty-nester. My dog loves me unconditionally whether I'm having a bad hair day or not, and cuddles with me every night, and makes sure I get enough excercise every day. We play ball and he has a sense of humor and a terrific personality. Of course it isn't the same as having a partner, but it is an important relationship to me nonetheless and I could never consider anyone who doesn't love dogs for me. However, by the same token, I would never post to everyone that NOT liking dogs is a RED FLAG. To me, a "red flag" is alcoholism, drugs, perpetual unemployment, irresponsibility, abusive, controlling. Whether someone is a city person or country person or loves pets and children or doesn't is not a red flag for everyone to avoid, it is a personal preference about your own compatibility. One of my best friends is not a dog or cat person, but she loves horses. This doesn't mean we can't be friends, but by the same token, if I were to consider someone for marriage, I wouldn't want someone who disliked pets because that would mean I would never get to have one again...the way to avoid that is to only date other pet lovers, and that is what I would stick to. If you can't abide fur in your house and don't want to spend the time walking a dog or taking care of them when they're sick or spending time and attention on them, you probably should avoid a partner that loves pets or you'll be constantly irritated. I think all of my fellow pet-loving friends feel the same way.

I think so - now I am at a different mental stage, not only I am not obsessed anymore and thus each day is so much easier to take, but I am also looking forward to my future. I can�t explain but I feel that I am finally waking up from a long bad dream and something good is waiting for me. I also feel that I should have done this sooner. Of course not all was bad and I had a lot of great time with him, which I am grateful for, but in the end I wasted my precious 5 years on something that did not have a future. Which, I guess, is a part of learning process in life, and I know you all told me to NOT waste my life, but finally it is sinking in, not as words but as a reality.

Even though DS loved my XBF, and at the beginning he was missing XBF, I can see that he has accepted the fact XBF will no longer be a part of our lives. He did this �acceptance� much sooner than his mother And maybe because he sees/feels that his mom is finally being happy again, I see some changes in him too. In a strange way, the whole experience seems to have solidified our relationship as a mother and a son. We have always been very close, but now DS seems to have stepped up as a �bigger boy� to help his mother out, instead of just being a recipient of my love and care.

Thanks KC! It took me a while, but I am learning each day. And yes, my son is such a sweetie. He is the meaning of my life. I can't thank God enough to have given him to me. And I tell that to my son every day.

I am a dog person too, so I know what you mean by dogs being your family members. After my last dog died in 2008, though, we have not had any pets till last September. We have a very busy life, so I did not think it would be fair for the dogs. But DS has been missing our dog and wanted to have something to care for. So at his 9th birthday last September, I figured he was old enough to be responsible for a small animal, and I bought him a bunny. Well, I am an animal lover, but must say not all the animals are the same He NEVER make any sound, probably still does not know his name, bites us when we are cleaning his cage, chewed up my Tiffany lamp�s wire, my laptop�s external memory�s wire, and our phone wire! He is still cute, but gees, I wish we had a dog instead Well at least my son loves him�

I hope you didn't throw your Tiffany lamp away, some people know how to rewire them.

You aren't a kidding not all animals are the same! My dog chewed up everything when he was a puppy...the couch, my bed, the trim on the house, my son's MP3 player, countless shoes/slippers, my favorite dress, a book on Boundaries (the irony didn't escape me), etc. But he was worth it and he had a wonderful personality, all of those are just things, but he keeps me company and has settled down into being a wonderful dog. Am not sure I have it in me to go through puppyhood with another again though...if I ever face this again, I'll probably adopt an adult dog that has already gone through this stage...trouble is, the agency wasn't forthright about his age, I found out he was not a year old AFTER taking him to the vet, AFTER adopting him. I can definitely see why dogs are not for everyone, but for me, they make life worth it all.

It sounds like your experience has been a learning exp. not just for you but for your son. He will respect you for doing what is the best thing instead of being a victim. And you will show him in the process what is the GOOD way to treat women so he won't pattern his own self off XBF.

I hope you keep your bunny a safe distance from other bunnies or you'll have lots more to contend with!

That sounds about right . We often need to step away from a relationship to truly see how toxic or unhealthy it was, because we do not see it clearly while still in it. That's why it's important to cut contact when ending the relationship, instead of continuing to interact - when you continue to interact, you do not get the fog to lift. Once it lifts, you often see things in a new light, or at least you see things clearly.

Good work milkshake!

AGG

[quote/]

I hope you keep your bunny a safe distance from other bunnies or you'll have lots more to contend with! [/quote]

Oh gosh, my son has been asking me to find a girl rabbit so ours can "marry" her and have babies! Not happening!

Thanks AGG, it was fear that was making me cling, not love. I loved him but at the same time over the past 3 years there was always doubt about us since he was not saying ILY and also not wanting to make the life-time commitment. I was always second guessing, and got tired of such relationship. But I was afraid to rock the boat. My GF kind of pushed my back to have the 'serious' talk, knowing that the fact he was not proposing was bothering me. Losing something you got so used to having around is very difficult, but in my head I knew I could not keep fooling myself. And now I can say it was worth it. Yes, it wasn't easy. It was painful. It was scary. But I did not have to waste another 5 years.

Thank you all for your support and cheering and encouragement! Good night everyone.

When you say a "happy person", what kind of person do you think of?

DS and I are vacationing with my family friends in St. Thomas. It's absolutely gorgeous. I planned the trip back in Dec., as a way to be emotionally independent, since the last five years I have not had any vacations, other than when we went back home to see my folks, without my XBF.

But the result is..., I am missing him and wish he was here with us. I see this beautiful golf resort and think of him. I know I am beautifying my memories a bit, since XBF was never really a beach person, and did not like to just sit and relax at the beach. And because he has a pretty bad vision, he would never go snorkeling either, so why am I thinking of him when I am doing all of these things we never did together?

Dunno, but obviously the weather, the sun, the breeze, and just being on vacation..., remind me of him. Wish he shared the same feelings.

MS

MS you are probably just missing sharing with someone - not necessarily him in particular but the relationship part of it. The idea of it you know? Our mind can make things look ideal but that doesn't mean they are. I read romance books. My mind automatically wants a relationship like that even though I know it's not probable in the long run since life gets in the way. When I do find the man that kisses the ground I walk on, has millions of $$$, is gorgeous, etc. I will be sure and let ya'll know.

Well I can assure you that what you're looking for does exist...I had it with my late husband, he was everything I could have wanted! Loyal, caring, sweet, understanding, great communication, giving, helpful, hard working, AND we went together perfectly and enjoyed the same things! He was also romantic. I miss him tremendously.

Thank you all fir reminding me that it's not just me who misses our old relationship. It can be hard, but I know we all have gone through it. I don't understand why XBF is okay w/o us around even though he is also used to having us around on weekends and on vacation. I wish I was that tough.

KC, your late husband sounds like an awesome man and the perfect partner for you. Once you had it, it must be harder to find a replacement.

Even though I am sad that our vacation is ending tomorrow and I will be going back to work on Thurs., I am also a bit relieved that I would not have to suffer so much from lack of 'my partner' during our vacation. I felt so bad for my son, when everyone else had their parents. I did a lot, in fact EVERYTHING he wanted to do with him to make sure he would not feel bad about that. It seems he was too busy having fun to be reminded of it, but I also felt that he intentionally tried NOT to mention XBF's name because he did not want to feel sad and also did not want ME to look sad.

Your son sounds like a wonderful person, probably your greatest blessing in life, as my son is.

Yes my late husband was my soulmate and the best partner for me...maybe that's just another reason I don't want to date, I tried other relationships but they didn't work and I just don't think there's much likelihood of finding someone wonderful (for me) again. At least I've had it once...

Thank you KC, yes, DS is the best thing ever happened to me in life. You and I are lucky to have such blessings, and I understand we cannot have everything in life so maybe that's why we are a bit "short" on the partner side

It must be even harder for you just because your husband passed away. He was the perfect partner for you, and he passed away, so no bad memories of him... If he was still around, I am sure he may still be able to upset or irritate you sometimes but he is not even doing that. I can see how it is difficult for you to even fall for any other men.

I didn't have a perfect husband, in fact he had way too much issues, but I still wanted our marriage to work, for DS's sake as well as for both of us, since we were together for a long time and also it WAS the original family. It didn't work out that way. Then XBF. He was much better from the responsibility and reliability points of view, compared to my XH, but was a bit too 'cold' as a person for me. I still wanted it to work out, again, because I loved him but also DS's sake as well. So if the losses have been this hard for me, even though the relationships were not perfect, I can't imagine how hard it must be if you lose the perfect relationship. But I guess in the end, soon or later, we all lose them....

We are flying back today, I hope this vacation without XBF made me stronger.

Girl what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. You are getting stronger by the day.

Thanks Prissanna. So true. I will be checking in on you on your thread

I know this because of my divorce AND my crush. :-) My crush opened my eyes to many things.

I think we need to exchange emails. We could be long lost sisters or something. Did you have a twin at birth that was sent to live in Georgia? Hahahaha!

LOL, that's funny but that's a good idea, we should exchange emails. We have very similar thinking process for sure! I started reading "Will Our Love Last?", and I can now relate to this. You and me, for example, we are the same sex but found some similarities. We connect. Very simple.

When DS and I were on vacation in St. Thomas, I met this lady who came to pick us up at the airport and we just hit off. It turned out that she is also a single mom. She invited us over to St. John since she, her kids and her BF were staying there for the weekend. Again, among all those people, we connected. We became good friends.

I observe my son. He is quite popular among other kids, yet he always ends up being very close friends with those who like similar activities and who have similar sense of humor.

Well why would it be any different if it's for opposite sex? Of course not! XBF and I had many differences even though we were physically and intellectually attracted to each other. XH and I had similar personalities, but he just lacked too much of responsibility and other important skills.

I think as the book says, it is the fear that I have to start all over again, that I may not be able to find my soul mate anytime soon, that DS has another broken heart... It is scary, I admit. No one wants to waste time/life looking for something he/she may not even be able to find in the end.

My COO friend was emailing and texting me every day while we were in St. Thomas. He is very sweet. He calls me his 'love'. He said that because I am so self-sufficient financially and physically, I do not require a man, so if I choose to be with him, I am doing so not because of his wealth.. I think that's a part of his attraction towards me. He has said that he wants to have a baby with me; he said the child will be super smart and beautiful, which is...., somewhat flattering but also scary to be honest. As far as I am concerned, we are not officially BF and GF yet, so it feels way too soon to be talking about it.

At the same time I do not want to make a same mistake, which is to spend way too much time before I realize that I am developing love for the person. I feel that I have too much of a heavy protection armor around my heart when I come out of a relationship, which always slowed me down and made the other person feel "I am not that into him". That's what happened to XH and XBF and some others. They all complained that I was not in love with them as much as they were with me in early days. But isn�t that normal for women who have been hurt? Am I being too cautious?

This guy is smart, successful, a great family person, honest... Why wouldn't I like him? Maybe this is the person I would have more 'similarities'. His parents are still happily married and so are my parents. He is close to his parents and siblings. He has high education and so do I. He likes fine things but not a show-off. He likes nature as well as cultural stuff, just like me. He is not a picky eater. He cooks. He loves kids. He works hard but keeps weekends free. He likes to travel. He has lived overseas as well. He plays musical instruments. He has been divorced and understands the heartache. He has been to many counseling sessions and is not afraid of sharing his deep inner thoughts and verbally expressing his feelings/emotions.

The problem is that I am not feeling the same level of excitement he is feeling for me just yet�� I wish I was more careless and can jump right into another relationship with open arms and heart. I was never like that. Seriously, often I feel it is ME who is causing all the 'mismatch' timing that can be crucial for successful relationships. I am too late into the game when I finally realize that I love the person. Because I am always interacting with my partner through the wall around myself initially. Maybe I am just not good at romantic relationships.

I think that was my MAIN problem with the obsession over the crush. My mind wanted to think he was the one (him being great looking is part of the reason I think - my ex had beat me down so much til I didn't think I was good enough for anyone that looked halfway decent) so I wouldn't have to actually find the one you know? I knew his family and was raised up around his family so he was 'safe' to me. And I wasn't even looking until he came along. Sure I had thoughts but .... I wasn't openly looking. Not that I am now, but I have many more thoughts than I used to have about finding the right one.


Well you just don't know how you will feel - eventually. Some relationships start out as friendships and progress. That's what is scaring me about meeting with B this weekend. I don't want that to happen because for one thing I'm not ready and for the other, I don't want him to be THE ONE because he's not what I have in mind for myself. And now ya'll are saying she is off her rocker. lol

I think you are better off not wanting to jump into another relationship right now. What you are going through is the same thing as a divorce so any relationship would probably be a rebound relationship.

Yup. Back in Novemeber I realized that it was not working out. That's because I was on a rebound and was not having much fun. I turned him down but he wanted to just continue communication via email, which we did for two months. I got to know him better through the process.

Now I feel a little more comfortable with him, and I feel that I do have more leveled head and clearer mind in terms of starting a new relationship. It's just that I am not that into him yet, and who knows, it may never develop to that degree. I have seen some of my friends just completely fell in love with a new date after a few meetings, and I always felt that I am lacking something or being overly cautious.

Went out with my COO friend. Something I discovered..., he DID cheat on his first wife and he has been married twice.

Now, on our first 'date', he told me that he was married for a very long time (like 17 years or something), and when he got transferred, she refused to come with him (she was a homemaker), told him to go alone, and eventually after doing so for a few years, she filed for a divorce. Then he had a long-term relationship with this lady but it did not work out because she did not want to move here and he could not move either.

What he told me yesterday is that yes, his first ex-wife DID refuse to move with him and told him to just commute back and force over the weekend (between IL and CO), while she stayed here with the kids and close to her own family (mother and sister). He did feel unloved, also he said she withheld sex to punish him often, and he said "I am not trying to play a victim, and I am not proud of what I did, but the truth is that I felt I just needed to give money to my ex and she did not need me at all, and I met someone in CO and fell in love, and my wife did file for a divorce but after I met this lady so technically I did cheat on her".

I was shocked to hear this, because he seemed to be the last person to cheat on his wife. See, these are the kind of things you discover along the way which totally turns you off trying to find 'Mr. right' for you.

Anyhow, this lady is the one he ended up marrying and stayed for 7 years, however she filed for a divorce since eventually he had to move back to IL and she could not move (she had her own business). They were flying back and forth but he felt that it was more him making the effort but she seemed to be okay without spending enough time with him. And she told him that this long-distance relationship wasn't working out, and in the end she divorced him.

Now I told him "you didn't tell me you were divorced twice", and also told him that "to be honest, I am shocked to learn that you had cheated on your wife".

He seemed to be totally in love with me, he kept saying how crazy he is about me and even scared me by saying that he wants to stay with me every day and wants to marry me.

He asked if that scared me (that he had said he wanted to marry me), and I had to be honest to say yes. I was not that into him in the first place, and then after hearing his past, I was very turned off.

Then I started to miss my XBF tremendously. I wish I was with him instead of this guy. I might just be missing the loving situation, not necessarily XBF, but still, I miss him and the situation and all. I missed him during our vacation too last week. I know I did not like XBF�s coldness but now it seems he is still a much better person than this COO guy� Besides, I have been trying to physically accept him but it is almost painful for me to even kiss this guy. It will not work out if I get physically turned off by him, right? I will never meet anyone I would find attractive AND right for me��

Sigh.

MS I can totally understand you being turned off by this guy. If he cheated once, he is subject to do it again. That's too much of a risk for me. That question is on the dating applications I'm handing out. J/K but it is a big concern for me.

I would think you probably don't need to see the COO dude again because it is giving him false hope. Unless you can be clear that your relationship will never be anything but friends.

I know how you feel about thinking Mr. Right is not out there. That's why I'm trying to learn to love being single and not caring one way or the other. Do you think you would/could be happy if you never had a relationship again or is that a big MUST for you?

You know, when I was going through my divorce, I desperately wanted to have a relationship, to fill my void. I was scared, and wanted to have someone I could lean against. I got XBF. He fell in love with me and I could tell he wanted to marry me. But that actually scared me a bit, just like now my COO dude is scarying me. The reason I felt scared when XBF hinted he wanted to marry early on, is very similar to how you felt when you thought your friends might have thought B was your husband/LT boyfriend. It was the fear, I did not like to feel I was erasing my XH and replacing him with someone else. Even though I was looking for someone to fill my void. It did not make sense. I guess because I was in love with XH still. And I did not want to feel that I was destroying my original family, and replacing DS's father with someone else. Even though it was XH who had left.

Then now with the COO guy, this time, I do not have such fear of replacing XBF with someone else, either because I have become so much stronger over time, especially after having gone through divorce, or because in the end he is not DS's father. Also we were not living together. Whatever the reason is, I do not have the same level of concerns and hesitation, although I do have many sweet memories with XBF. The only reason I am not happy about this guy's aggressive approach is simply I am not that into him. On top of it, now I learned something new about him...

I know we are not perfect. I have made many mistakes too. So I know it is not fair to demand so much in others either... and I do not, usually. I am a very accepting person when it comes to my friends and all others. I always find something great about people, and I think that is why I never had any issues at school and workplace, I never had 'bad' bosses. Even those others may call 'jerk', I could become friends with because I managed to 'get' and like them.

Yet, when it comes to my partner, I know I have a very high standard - even when he is having a bad day, if he takes on me, it really hurts and I lose respect. I know it's wrong. I need to support him no matter what. If he is mean to others, it bothers me, and again I tend to lose respect. Even though I might be doing the same things without my realizing it. Maybe I am very selfish and demanding only in a romantic relationship.

Would I be okay without a relationship? That's a good question. I thought I rather have a BF than another husband before - that is when I was dating XBF. I did not want to go through all the troubles and issues and betrayals and heartaches and disappointment again. But over time I began wanting to have a family again. And the pressure pushed XBF away. Now I am on the other end. The pressure from the COO is not pleasant. But that does not mean I do not want to have a family. I think I DO want to have a family life again. I just want to have someone I can completely trust, and spend time together without having worried about him resenting of his freedom being taken away. I want someone we can grow old together. I am not planning on taking him for granted, but at the same time I would want a relationship where we never even question about 'us' being together, because it's so natural and we cannot imagine being without each other.

A partner shouldn't take out his bad day on you. I don't think you are wrong for losing respect there. You certainly aren't wrong for losing respect over him cheating. I'm sorry but no matter what your spouse does, I will never be convinced that it is OK to cheat.

I don't see you as being selfish and demanding after I've read the stuff your XBF did. He is the selfish and demanding one.

I like what you want in a relationship. I've told myself that I won't settle for less than a man who worships the ground I walk on (and I in return worship the ground he walks on).

Milkshake,

The phenomeonon you describe with both XBF and COO is what the author of www.baggagereclaim.com describes as "future faking" and "fast forwarding":

When someone is a Future Faker they via their words and initial actions give you the impression of a future so that they can get what they want in the present. They make thinly veiled or even direct references to stuff like marriage, babies, moving in together, going on holiday, being together the following year and other such things that imply or state that you�re a part of their life, and then they either disappear or replace the person you thought they were with someone altogether different.

When someone Fast Forwards you, they speed you through, in particular, the early stages of dating by sweeping you up in a tide of intensity, so that you miss red flags and mistake the intensity as being reflective of their deep feelings for you. Fast Forwarding is not just the words of Future Faking, but pushing for emotional and sexual commitment, contacting you or wanting to be together all of the time, introducing you very quickly to people, taking you to look at places or giving you their key, and other such madness.

Wow. Very interesting, this is the first time I heard of these terms. Do women do this to men too, or only men do this to women?

Don't men (maybe women do this too, but since I never dated women, lol, I don't know) all this though?

When I was dating XH, he asked if I could marry him if we were still together in the future. That was only the first or the second month after we started dating. The other guys I briefly dated mentioned marriage right away. XBF mentioned marriage early on, and I was introduced to his mom and other family members right away. Now the COO guy. He keeps telling how much he loves me, but I haven't returned the L word back, because I cannot. He wants to introduce me and DS to his family but I do not want to introduce him to my son yet. I thought all guys do this early on when they feel they are in this intense feeling of love. My XH met his current GF a few years ago, and he was so much in love that he even shared the story with me, which was weird. They got engaged last year and are getting married this summer.

I do not want too fast a development, but at the same time looking back how XBF and I 'lost' fuel in the long-term relationship, I do not want to spend too much time before we move onto the next level either. It's a huge dilemma.

I had not heard those terms either but it makes me wonder about my ex-fiance...maybe he did both. I don't think he consciously set out to, but that was his display. Very interesting. I guess it just shows we not only need to be careful about not letting a relationship go too fast in the beginning but also need to be so aware of red flags, esp. someone that seems to be manipulating us by using what we want to get what they want.

Milkshake,

No, not all men do this. There is a different between good guys and those who are emotionally unavailable or [censored]. The good guys take things slow...they don't try and bed you on the first date...in fact, many of them won't even try to kiss you on the first date. They don't rubber band back and forth between hot and and cold. Let me repeat: normal, respectful people with empathy and care don�t behave this way.

I encourage you, strongly, to spend time reading the multitude of articles on www.baggagereclaim.com about relationships and dating. It made a world of difference to my life. I was the type who continually got involved with guys who eventually broke my heart through disappearing (what I called "poofing"), the "slow fade", cheating on me (both when I was married to him or while I was dating them), really wanting only sex and using me for it, etc. After one, particularly hard breakup, after my divorce, I spent a great deal of time reading and thinking about the ideas on Baggage Reclaim. It totally helped me see where my perceptions were off and taught me to rethink the men I was meeting/dating. It was long after that I met an absolutely super guy who didn't kiss me goodnight on our first date but did follow up afterward telling me what a nice time he had, who didn't try to jump into a relationship hot and heavy straight away, who didn't blow hot and cold or try to bed me on the first or second date....in fact, it was many months, who didn't tell me he loved me for MANY months, who didn't push to move in with me, who doesn't have financial or work issues, who doesn't lie when its convenient or to cover up misdeeds, who doesn't have drinking problems and isn't still hung up on an ex or clinging to his past, someone who valued me for who I am inside, not just on the outside. This man didn't run away from marriage...in fact, I didn't have to bring the subject up and we didn't talk about it ad infinitum. It was him who brought it up at the appropriate time two years after we met, not two minutes, two days or two months.

If a guy is future faking or fast forwarding, it's a HUGE red flag....beware!

Happy Friday and...pre Mother's Day to all of you wonderful mothers!!!

You too milkshake.

You too MS! Haven't heard from my kids but I took my 90 year old mom out last night...she is mentally very gone so it's hard to watch her decline. We're in the painful process of trying to get intervention through the courts so we can assure her safety as she doesn't cooperate or let us help her. I wouldn't wish this on anyone...so it is that this year Mother's Day kind of has a dual edge for me.

Oh I'm sorry to hear that KC. But I'm sure when she has the moment when she knows what's going on around her, she appreciates her daughter being with her.

My mom is very negative and mentally ill...always has been. It's just worse now, it's progressed and dementia has set in. I'm trying to be patient with her and know God will make her well next time around. She's NOT enjoyable to be around, but we're trying to be good kids and do the right thing regardless. It's tough.

I did get to spend some time with my son and his fiance, that was great!

I hope you all had a good mother's day!

{{{{{KC}}}}}

That's funny, Daisy, I just sent you hugs in the other thread! LOL

awww, thanks!

Like others say, the "fastfowarding" is a red flag, and I think that "I am doing so not because of his wealth.. I think that's a part of his attraction towards me" is also a red flag...I think you are taking that to mean "she is independent, that is awesome" where it could also mean "I have no money so she sure as heck can't rely on me and maybe I can get some out of her".