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Just using this as a journal...

I had a baby shower today so was doing okay during the day and in the afternoon, but was secretly missing my XBF. Funny, even though we never really spent Sat during the day together because he usually go to the gym in the morning on Sat and then to the driving range if the weather is nice or run some errands, if he comes to my house, he never came before 7pm. Then we eat dinner together, go to bed, and on Sun morning usually he is already gone to the driving range most of the time when the weather is good. So why am I missing him when we didn't really have that much Sat memories?? Dunno, I just missed him so much.

And now..., I am missing him tremendously. I am actually having two dates tomorrow - one with a guy who is now a good friend (he has been pursuing me for 3 years or so, but I declined every time he asked me to make him my boyfriend). He knows I am going through a hard time, and has been texting or calling me every once in a while to check on me this past several weeks. He said he has a strategy for me to get over the pain. He said he would take me out to a funny movie tomorrow. During the day, so there would be no sexual stuff. He knows I do not want to be taken advantage of. He said he loves me and wants to help me. He said he loves me not because he wants me, but he said he just loves me as a person, and even if I end up marrying someone else, he said he would always be there for me to help out. Even though I do not think I would end up with him as a couple, I was very grateful he is trying to help me move on. It's so painful though...

And the other one, this is the guy I mentioned a couple of times - he is wonderful, it's just that I am not very excited about him physically. I met him after I 'broke up' with XBF last Sep., but does not know I am still going through a hard time emotionally with the long-term XBF. We'll probably meet for dinner or something, but he is still sick so will keep it short.

I am trying to go out there and have fun. I am trying to open my heart for other possibilities. But...., I still miss XBF. Even though we never lived together, after 5 years, I felt as if we were a family, it is very difficult to NOT remember him in every aspect of life.

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Thanks GG...,

Originally Posted By: Greengables
But, in general, I object to the "you never loved me enough" argument because it's a lot like blaming the victim. And I've seen people use it to blungeon others into submission. No matter what, it's never enough.

It's different than having complaints about specific behaviors that can be easily changed, like curtailing golf to 8 holes a weekend, max.


Very insightful and makes sense. Specially the "it's never enough" part. I'm sure I was doing things that made him feel unloved unintentionally, but when he complained, I changed that. I always baked a birthday cake for his birthday but one year we were busy, I bought a cake and did not make it. He later complained that I didn't bake it, he is not getting the special treatment anymore..., so I baked a cake the following year. Besides, I always baked other type of stuff for him on the regular basis but I guess that wasn't enough... When he complained that I wear jeans to go see a movie and not making our date more special, I started to wear skirts and dresses all the time, I almost always wore skirts when we went out afterwards. I think I did my best to please him. I am not perfect, so made some mistakes but I listened to his complaints and tried to change that. I kept asking him to sometimes express love verbally, but he never did because he did not believe in it. Yet he believes I failed to make him feel loved..., despite he appreciated my intelligence, looks, cooking skills, athletic ability, and being a good mother, and despite he loves my son..., he rather ends our relationship. I feel so not worthy. I feel so inadequate.

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Originally Posted By: milkshake
Just using this as a journal...

I am actually having two dates tomorrow - one with a guy who is now a good friend (he has been pursuing me for 3 years or so, but I declined every time he asked me to make him my boyfriend). He knows I am going through a hard time, and has been texting or calling me every once in a while to check on me this past several weeks. He said he has a strategy for me to get over the pain.


This screams redflagredflag ... a man who pursues a woman in a relationship does not have good boundaries.

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Originally Posted By: milkshake

had a baby shower today so was doing okay during the day and in the afternoon, but was secretly missing my XBF. Funny, even though we never really spent Sat during the day together because he usually go to the gym in the morning on Sat and then to the driving range if the weather is nice or run some errands, if he comes to my house, he never came before 7pm. Then we eat dinner together, go to bed, and on Sun morning usually he is already gone to the driving range most of the time when the weather is good.

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But...., I still miss XBF. Even though we never lived together, after 5 years, I felt as if we were a family, it is very difficult to NOT remember him in every aspect of life.


This is why Dr. Harley suggests there be no SF outside of marriage. It harms all involved and creates a false sense of relationships. It automatically produces a freeloader mentality, and at best the person may become a renter.

Stick to men who will only have SF inside marriage ... then you know you will have a buyer on your hands.

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Originally Posted By: PrayIncessantly
This screams redflagredflag ... a man who pursues a woman in a relationship does not have good boundaries.

QFT*





* If you aren't familiar with the abbreviations, that stands for "Quoted for Truth."


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
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I completely agree with GG - sounds like NEITHER of you felt loved enough in the relationship, so what is there to try to get back to? Feelings of not being loved? WHY??

As for this:

Originally Posted By: milkshake
Just using this as a journal...
He said he has a strategy for me to get over the pain. He said he would take me out to a funny movie tomorrow. During the day, so there would be no sexual stuff. He knows I do not want to be taken advantage of. He said he loves me and wants to help me.


Looks like a shark is smelling blood in the water and is circling for the kill, I'd be really careful (not physically, but emotionally).

AGG


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Thanks Pray and Fred.

I am not worried about this guy, as I am not interested in him in a romantic way. I told him I was in a relationship before, and he just wanted to stay friends. We occasionally talked on the phone or he would forward some jokes by email but I mostly didn't even respond. He would ask for my advice when he was changing jobs, etc., so it's been just a friendship. We have met up for lunch once or twice a year prior to my breaking up with XBF, when he was doing business near my office but we mostly kept in touch via occasional phone calls (and mostly the calls were about work, friends, etc.). He had asked me a couple of times if I could come help him out picking a suit and shoes but I didnt do that either. When he felt I was down, he would say "I would feel better if I made him my BF", but I usually just laughed at his jokes.

He had similar situation, that he was with this woman for 5 years and he was very close to her children too, but after 5 years she wanted to get married. She pressured him and they broke up. Soon after that she got married to someone else, apparently that devastated him so much - the whole thing sounds to similar to mine, but I just did not understand his motives and emotions - he obviously loved her. He was devastated that his XGF married someone else. BUT he didn't marry her when she wanted to marry. That is just so counterproductive to me. I asked him about it. He said he just couldn't, he wasn't ready to get married. I asked him if she wanted to get back together back then, if he would have..., he said yes. I don't understand, why they did he break up with her? He is almost the same age as my XBF and has never been married either.

Because he has gone through the same situation, I asked him some questions last weekend. He said "well if you still love him then call him up and ask him to get back together", which prompted my call last weekend. I haven't really spoken to him since, but he texted me to check on me how I was doing several days later. I told him I was not doing so well, that I miss XBF. That's when he said he has an idea, let's go see a funny movie.

I am not doing as badly as last night in terms of missing XBF. But I still do. Why did he have to attach pictures to his email? Why he can let me go so easily while he still has feelings enough to cry? He is coming home today, I do not know what time though. I feel that he (1) sort of wants that I do not respond so there will be no more drama, we are officially done and (2) wants to see my response so he could continue to be involved in DSs life, and maybe in mine too a little but in the meantime he could continue his search for new love online.
I hate putting myself in this lack of confidence mode. Keeping distance is the BEST way to protect my emotional well-being. But I am a competitive person in nature, I feel that I need to counter argue his points, even though I know that is a waste and I read in some books that men NEVER change their mind just because their GFs try to convince them. No way to win this battle for me.

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MS, Why did he attach photos to the email? Because he lacks empathy and compassion. And for what it's worth, he didn't let you go easily. This has been a very messy break up, which is part of the problem.

Why get into a debate where there is no winning? The only way to win this time is to not play.

How many months or even years of your life do you want to spend thinking and strategizing how to win this man back? A man that you recognize you are not compatible with?

Life is short, MS, and it's getting shorter. Move on.

Now regarding your friend... Have a good time with him. Just be wary. My guess is his strategy is that you spend a lot of time with him!


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Came back from the movie. Mr. COO whom I was supposed to meet up later on today is still sick as a dog, coughing and has fever so we canceled our date, which is fine with me because I am tired and want to go to bed early tonight.

We saw Descendent with George Clooney. What part of that is funny??? It was a very good movie but very sad, I jokingly told my friend "hey, you are supposed to cheer me up but this made me even sadder"; he knew it was a good movie but didn't know what it was all about.

We talked about my and his relationships. We just sat in the lobby of the theater and talked for hours after the movie. I told him my struggles with XBF and he opened up a lot to tell me lots of his relationship history. He had several key relationships where he had talked about marriage, and yet he never did - he never even got engaged. I realized that he has always been subconsciously attracted to unavailable women so that he did not have to make a commitment. And when they became available (like they divorced or came out of the previous relationships), he lost interest. And when the women were pushing him to make the commitment, he felt cornered and left the relationship. They usually kept in touch for a while but at some point women said "enough is enough, I do not want to go on like this" and completely stopped the contact - then he always felt devastated and tried to reconcile with them, but no women took him back afterwards.

He admitted that it was a good point (that he was subconsciously looking for a woman with whom he did not have to be committed to). The more I spoke to him, actually more I was discouraged about my situation because its probably the same with my XBF he is subconsciously afraid of the commitment so that whenever it gets close to the decision-making moment, he comes up with all the excuses and/or complaints about me so that he could postpone the decision.

GG, I know. Life is too short. I do NOT want to waste my time anymore. Its just I keep wondering WHY he said it is about our ability to compromisewhy he was crying.why he attached the pics of us maybe he TRULY feels that only if I made him feel he is loved then he would want to get back when my XH wanted to come home, it was too late but I still remember what a waste it was, the whole mis-matched timing. When I wanted to work on it he did not want to and when I was finally over with him he wanted to come back. Life is just so twisted and unfair.

One thing I was thinking, though while I was driving. Life definitely throws lots of challenges. I wonder why often. BUT here I am, none of you guys have met me, but I feel you are all cheering me with a big huge flag saying "hang on, don't give up, you can make it!". When I thought about it, I knew that life is not all that bad either. Than you all for your support.

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Originally Posted By: milkshake

We talked about my and his relationships. We just sat in the lobby of the theater and talked for hours after the movie. I told him my struggles with XBF and he opened up a lot to tell me lots of his relationship history. He had several key relationships where he had talked about marriage, and yet he never did - he never even got engaged. I realized that he has always been subconsciously attracted to unavailable women so that he did not have to make a commitment. And when they became available (like they divorced or came out of the previous relationships), he lost interest. And when the women were pushing him to make the commitment, he felt cornered and left the relationship. They usually kept in touch for a while but at some point women said "enough is enough, I do not want to go on like this" and completely stopped the contact - then he always felt devastated and tried to reconcile with them, but no women took him back afterwards.


I don't know whether you and this man have a future together or not, but I think is good that he can talk to you this way. Who knows maybe he is having his 'lightbulb' moment about why his life has gone so badly so far and he will work to correct himself so he can be a good mate to someone if that is what he wants in life.

Same with you. I hope you can find a man who wants to be WITH you and not just after 7 p.m. on Saturday night and breakfast Sunday morning. That isn't enough MS. You deserve more.

I agree with PI about the sex issue. That once you let sex into a relationship you don't 'think' the same way and you cannot be as rational. Even if you do not have religious reasons for keeping sex in marriage, there are some very good practical ones. So I hope you will get really focused on yourself, your son, what YOU both need and work toward that. If a man comes a long who fits in, great. If not, enjoy your life anyway. It sounds like you DO enjoy your life and that it is busy, but I hope you can stop pining after the shadow of your XB because what you wanted it to be it never was and never will be.

Originally Posted By: milkshake
He admitted that it was a good point (that he was subconsciously looking for a woman with whom he did not have to be committed to). The more I spoke to him, actually more I was discouraged about my situation because its probably the same with my XBF he is subconsciously afraid of the commitment so that whenever it gets close to the decision-making moment, he comes up with all the excuses and/or complaints about me so that he could postpone the decision.


I am happy your friend was able to give you the 'male' insight to that type of man....in the way that AGG isn't able to because he isn't that type of man. But it shouldn't discourage you to 'see' the type of man your XB is...it should ENcourage you because it is HIM not you that is the problem. The only problem you have is your picker. And your willingness to settle for less than you want/deserve in a man.

Originally Posted By: milkshake
GG, I know. Life is too short. I do NOT want to waste my time anymore. Its just I keep wondering WHY he said it is about our ability to compromisewhy he was crying.why he attached the pics of us maybe he TRULY feels that only if I made him feel he is loved then he would want to get back when my XH wanted to come home, it was too late but I still remember what a waste it was, the whole mis-matched timing. When I wanted to work on it he did not want to and when I was finally over with him he wanted to come back. Life is just so twisted and unfair.


He was crying, he was manipulating, because he wants what he had with you. Which was a 'relationship' where he didn't have to put much effort into keeping you around. For five years. I'm sure he has feelings for you, but he is an immature, selfish man and you are better off without him.

Originally Posted By: milkshake
One thing I was thinking, though while I was driving. Life definitely throws lots of challenges. I wonder why often. BUT here I am, none of you guys have met me, but I feel you are all cheering me with a big huge flag saying "hang on, don't give up, you can make it!". When I thought about it, I knew that life is not all that bad either. Than you all for your support.


I've experienced the cheering from the board here and I'm happy to repay.

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Thanks SW. No, I was never attracted to my friend in a romantic way, and especially now I know who he really is (he is not a bad guy, he is always positive and helping his friends and family, but he is just not a good relationship material), I would be beyond crazy to even consider any 'future' with him.
I do agree with you, it was actually very helpful to speak to him to get the males perspective. Like you said, AGG and many others on this board are different types of men, so it was truly eye-opening experience to hear my friends stories.
Ironically, he has told me numerous times MS, you are such a quality woman, you deserve better, when you find the right person, you would know. It should never be this tough to have a good relationship. The fact you are working so hard, this is the wrong relationship. This sounds like the same healthy advice I have been getting on this board, right? Yet it is coming from a guy who himself has lots of relationship troubles. This is one of the reasons I sometimes do not believe in it because I have seen so many bad examples telling me things like that.
My friend DID meet good women, and he did have many long-term relationships. I told him Im sorry if this comes across sounding like I am judging you, but it does look like to me it is YOU and not them. You have dated many different women in different ages, background, circumstances, personalities, life goals, etc. One thing that is common is that each time they started wanting you to make the life-time commitment, you got angry or frustrated and ended the relationships. He did not deny it at all. He in fact agreed I noticed that too, I know its ME. Well, so it really didnt matter whether he met the right person or not. I believe he did, but it still didnt work out. Thats where I got discouraged. I know XBF and I have differences, but it is true we are very attracted to each other and he did meet quite a few things on my needs (not the emotional side but honesty, hard-working nature, good looks, intelligence, high education, athletic ability, and the fact he truly loved my son). But it doesnt matter. He does not want to make such commitment. He believes if its with the right person, it should not be this hard. Just like my friend believes, XBF believes if its hard then its a wrong match. Its an abusive way to interrupt the whole right person theory I think. And this is why I got frustrated that he does not see it that way.

My XBF's personality is different from this friend, and I am sure he is not even aware that he is another 'commitment phobia'. He may actually not be, as he has brought up 'marriages' many times in our early relationship when I was not ready to make the big move. Maybe he honestly felt that I did not love him enough so he got cold feet when he thought about marriage. But then we should have had the talk to see what is missing on his end and my end. I have told him about spending more time together, but he basically told me this is who I am". As for not being able to say ILY, "I do not believe in saying it". As for not calling me much and having conversation often, he said Im not the phone conversation kind of guy, I rather do something together. As for not just dropping a simple line or text or call just to let me know he is thinking about me when we are not together, I am a practical guy, you need to appreciate that. As for his yelling, while he each time admitted that he was wrong, in the end he said but you should know by now after so many years together that its just how I am and it does not mean I am actually angry at you.

The point is, I do not feel he was willing to see my points of view. I do believe I tried to improve things he felt missing - playing golf with him, not complaining about his golfing, always making myself look pretty when we went out, ordering food HE can eat even if its for me at restaurant so we can share (he has many items he cannot eat so if I just pick what I like, he wont be able to taste mine, so I never got to order what I wanted), letting DS learn golfing, and many other things he had complained about.

So I do believe even though he might have genuinely felt I did not love him the way he wanted me to, if he chose to ignore the fact at least I made an effort while he did not do so as much - and yet using that as a reason, along with other silly reasons like our having two houses to sell, to avoid the life-time commitment, to me, that is still a sign that he was coming up with excuses so that he did not have to make the move.

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You are still thinking about XBF on a daily basis...maybe see if you can go a day without mentioning him once, as you begin to do that, maybe he will lessen in your mind. It comes across as almost obsessed, so it might require an actual effort to change the habit.

It seems your "date" was insightful...I hope you continue to view him as "not relationship material" because it's too similar to what you just got out of. I hope you can find someone enjoyable to date where it's just light and fun.


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Originally Posted By: kaycstamper
You are still thinking about XBF on a daily basis...maybe see if you can go a day without mentioning him once, as you begin to do that, maybe he will lessen in your mind. It comes across as almost obsessed, so it might require an actual effort to change the habit.


Yes. You are obsessed. Retrain your brain. If you come this board, journal about OTHER things. When he settles into your mind, shove him away.

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Originally Posted By: kaycstamper
It comes across as almost obsessed


Ouch! But you are so right KC. I noticed that too myself. But believe it or not, even though I posted the rather long comments, this morning I felt better. I did feel a bit lighter compared to a week or even just 2 days ago. Because I do feel that I have tried enough to let XBF know what I wanted (the full commitment), while he is just not capable of responding to my simple and natural needs.

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Originally Posted By: milkshake
Originally Posted By: kaycstamper
It comes across as almost obsessed


Ouch! But you are so right KC. I noticed that too myself. But believe it or not, even though I posted the rather long comments, this morning I felt better. I did feel a bit lighter compared to a week or even just 2 days ago. Because I do feel that I have tried enough to let XBF know what I wanted (the full commitment), while he is just not capable of responding to my simple and natural needs.



And although you do sound a bit obsessed I also recognize that you probably are doing all your venting here...not in real life.

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I think some ppl (mostly women) just need to talk things out to make themselves feel better about a situation. I always feel better when I talk something out.

I wish we could just say whatever happens, happens and not obsess/talk/worry about it. That's not me though. I remember being this way as a teenager so it's not because of my divorce that I'm like I am (not totally anyway). I don't know how anyone can change that???

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Yes I am releasing all of my frustration and sadness and grief here...., sorry for using the board as a sandbag wink Otherwise I am afraid I end up contacting XBF.

This afternoon, I did have a brief moment when I could honestly say I was excited about meeting 'the one' who is better and right for me in the future. For no apparent reason the happy thought crossed my mind when I was washing my hands in a lady's room, LOL, but I am not going to psycho-analyze what that means (the fact it popped up while in a bathroom wink.

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Originally Posted By: prissanna
I think some ppl (mostly women) just need to talk things out to make themselves feel better about a situation. I always feel better when I talk something out.

I wish we could just say whatever happens, happens and not obsess/talk/worry about it. That's not me though. I remember being this way as a teenager so it's not because of my divorce that I'm like I am (not totally anyway). I don't know how anyone can change that???


I am just like you Prissanna. I wish I do not worry or obsess this much, but I have grown up in a society/culture where they taught us that good things will happen to you as long as you are being good and work hard. So I still to this date try to control situations by trying harder. It is very difficult for me to accept the reality, especially when the situation seems unfair. Also I have always been analytical, which often makes it harder to live in this world because many things in life cannot be logically explained. How are you doing Prissanna? Didn't you say you might be having a 'date' next month?

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I still don't know that I'm going to 'do it'. lol It's not really a date, just a friendly thing. I actually haven't talked to him in a few weeks. That doesn't bother me (which is amazingly good for the type person I am) but I'm still indecisive as to whether or not to take this risk to our friendship. And the fact that it doesn't bother me to not have heard from him lets you know I'm not interested in that way huh?


How the heck did you get two dates in one weekend? I've had some offers (and declined all so far :-( (except my crush and we all know where that ended up - me an insane obsessive mess) but none are falling over me since my divorce. lol When it actually comes down to it I don't know that I would ever have the nerve to date. Sorry. Didn't mean to hijack. I have read your story and kept up with it because we seem to be much alike. You make me feel normal cause we are so much alike. lol


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I don't believe this.

My friend (the guy I went to see a movie with on Sunday) called me this morning. He sounded down so I asked what happened. You wouldn't believe this either.

He said what I told him - that he was following a pattern where he was always choosing unavailable women (married or being in a relationship) subconsciously - really made him think, and he did not like to be that way. So he talked to his GF (that he was sort of treating like a casual GF previously). He told her "maybe we should talk about our future".

To his surprise, she did not get excited about it, and instead, told him "you have no idea what you are getting into. You have a wonderful life, you get to do whatever you like whenever you like. My life is crazy with 4 children. You have no idea how my life is like".

He told me "I never had a woman who did not get excited about marriage; she is the first one who seems hesitated". And now he feels very sad.

I told him I know exactly what his GF meant by what she said. I actually told my XBF the exact same thing when he wanted to discuss future but I did not feel ready or I did not feel he was ready. I told XBF "you have been single all your years, and all you had to worry about has been yourself. Your work, house, health, and your hobbies/interest = golfing. You dont even have a pet to take care of. I have to worry about the exact same things as you PLUS my son's well-being, school work, emotional needs, financial needs, future, I am responsible for another human being. But I gladly sacrifice my needs over my sons. I am not sure if you are okay sacrificing your needs over someone elses". What a flashback.

So I told my friend that his GF knows how my friend lives - he is also very busy, always out with his friends playing golf, biking, hunting, whatever. Which is great, as an individual, but not as a family member/partner.

Strangely, now it seems the table is turned and my friend sounded desperate and said to me "but MS, I do not want to be like that. I do not think I will ever be able to have my own children now, it's too late - and I would love to watch my GF's kids grow because they grow up so fast, I want to share that".

When I asked about his interests, the fact he is always gone over the weekends, that he is used to the freedom but he cannot do that if he gets married sure he can still have fun and pursue his interests, but it has to balance out with the family life once he gets married, if he thinks he will resent that then he will not be happy not to mention his GF or her kids - he said "no, I'm past that, I have done enough for myself".

Gee how I wish I wanted to hear these words from my XBF!!! Still it felt good that at least one single guy who has been avoiding the lifetime commitment seems to have had the light bulb moment. I really hope things will work out for him, but his GF is being smart being cautious. I even told my friend that she is a smart lady and is a keeper wink

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