I am so grateful for this "Recovery" forum as it instills me with hope that my marriage may have a future. I am in a sort of limbo of recovery with FWH now because he still sees OW occasionally in public areas of his large employer. As we are trying to figure out how to move out of the area, I would like to learn about the process that FWSs go through in their recovery. I have read MB articles and books, but would like to hear about personal experiences from FWSs about their recovery process.

I do realize every one's situation is unique but please share your personal inspiring stories of your recovery.

I am particularly interested in how long does it take for FWS to feel true and profound remorse and once they have recovered how do they feel about OPs? Also, I am very interested in learning about the process of forgiving that BSs go through with respect to the OP? Do BSs are ultimately forgiving OPs?

Thank you for sharing your recovery wisdom.

YB1,

I can truly appreciate your need to grasp onto hope - learning from others who have been through this. It helped me greatly in my own situation to have those who'd gone before share their wisdom.

It's late - and I'm tired - so I don't think I'd make a lot of sense at the moment. Just wanted to post a quick note of encouragement.

I have a thread here that has become quite extensive as of late. I think time-wise it all depends on how hard you work at recovery - whether or not you are doing everything possible. The MB program is WONDERFUL! (I'll expound on that when I'm able to be more coherent and thorough.)

As for forgiveness? Well, personally - I don't see it as my job to forgive OP. I really don't. It is my job to move past it and not let her steal any more from me than she already has...but forgiveness is up to God.

Anyway, I'll be back!

What can you tell us about what you know about Marriage Builders - and what you and your husband have done so far towards recovery???

I wanted to expound on what I posted previously. Hopefully others will come along and share their wisdom as well.

YB, you asked about time in terms of how long it takes for a FWS to feel truly remorseful and about the feelings towards the OP.
I think it all depends on the situation. If you have read SAA, Dr. Harley mentions that there are different "levels" of an affair ranging from a one night stand to a long-term affair and everything in between. This level affects the attachment to the OP as well as how long it may take the FWS to go through withdrawal once the affair has ended and No Contact has been established.

Another factor in this is how the affair ended and at what stage the affair was in at the time. If an affair was near the end, having run its course and was exposed so that the real world could break up fantasyland, it's more likely that the affair fog will have been snapped more easily.

While it's a reality that many a FWS suffers from withdrawal from the OP even though they've chosen their marriage, he or she should still be PLENTY remorseful before recovery work can begin!

You mention "true and profound remorse" though - and that's something that makes for a good discussion. It sounds to me that perhaps you feel your FWS is not sorry enough. I know that feeling. You don't mention how long it's been since you and your husband started recovery, but I know that I still feel at times that I want my FWH to feel MORE remorse - and it's been well over a year now. It's about wanting them to take ownership, I think.

The question you have to ask yourself is this: what do his ACTIONS say? Has he been willing to do everything required of him for you to continue in this marriage? Is he working the MB principles with you to strengthen your relationship to become better than it ever has been before? If the answers to those are yes, you are in a good place. You have to focus on that rather than what he feels about the OW, etc...

I know you want reassurance (just as I did) that she is no longer appealing to him. The best way to make that reality is to work on the present - and future - and making your marriage the best it can be! If you do that, no matter what - the OW will always pale in comparison to you!

From my experience, the better the relationship with my husband has gotten, the more tenderness I see in him towards me and the pain I went through because of his infidelity. For a long time he said he was sorry and wish it'd never happened, etc... but I didn't get the big declaration of how awful he felt or how wrong he was. I DID get that he was willing to do whatever it took to help me through and to make our marriage safe. I worried that because I wasn't getting the "declarations" that some FBS get that somehow my H wasn't remorseful enough. Because of that, I still had closure issues. Is this what you are feeling?

I had to go back and assess the things my husband said in the past. I realized that what he had said all along were equal to the "declarations" I wanted to hear - they were just said in Mr. Sunny speak versus my brand of it. Then, it was up to me as to whether I needed to hear it in MY version.

I hope this makes some sense. Sometimes (like now) I have to post in a hurry because I need to get out the door but want to take the time to write.

It would be helpful if you could provide more information as to your situation, if you'd like more responses from people! Most of the time you get more feedback for specifics than generalities.

Yb, my wife was remorseful at first, but was going thru withdrawal at first and kept saying how depressed she was and couldn't hardly take me and my emotional breakdowns. Once we discovered HNHN, and I started meeting her needs it was like a light switch. The fog lifted and she finally realized how much she had hurt me and our family. Now, she didn't necessarily tell me everything for fear of me leaving, but that's another story.

Forgiveness is harder for me. I don't see how it's possible for people that don't believe in God, but apparently it is possible if you follow Dr. H's recovery plan. Good luck and stay focused.

Thank you Internal and thank you Sunny for your thoughtful posts. I have posted here under a different thread about my personal situation, but I thought it would be helpful for me and other BSs to have a compilation of in-depth information about the progression of recovery in those who have recovered succesfully, especially from the waywards' perspective. My case involved a 6-month-long full blown EA and PA (worst case scenario per SAA) that was terminated at its zenith by a full blown exposure to OP's husband and family as well as WHs employer and colleagues. It has been 3 months since exposure and my marriage is showing promise but I would love to be able to get into FWH's head and really understand this process. Those of you who have completed this journey from the affair fog to ultimately falling in love with your BS and rebuilding your marriage to one that is much better than pre-A, please share your wisdom.

I agree that a loose outline of the stages would be most helpful!

I posted today for the first time because I recently hit a wall of extreme anger that I did not see coming. I had what I had been working for, a repentant FWH and a chance to recover my marriage. I did not think I would wake up mad as fire at him and everything without warning a few months into recovery.

I know we are all different, but at the same time these stories all seem to follow strikingly similar paths so a general guideline of the process might be possible? Any vets want to try one?

I know it helped me tremendously today to find out that this wasn't out of the ordinary in my situation. I thought either I had made an awful, awful mistake... or maybe just finally lost my mind. If I had known it might happen maybe I wouldn't have been so flipped out. Luckily I did not make any rash decisions before posting here, with the exception of a bad dose of lovebusting inflicted upon my FWH.

Thanks for asking the question! Sorry I can't help about the remorse question. Don't know enough yet myself.

Aerie

I'm of the opinion that timelines are not really useful. Everyone hits stages of the cycle of grief at different times.

Anger is a response to frustration. It is a natural, instinctive response. Unfortunately, it's also terribly destructive. In general, Dr. Harley's advice is to learn to recognize when you are frustrated, and begin practicing directing that frustration to thoughtfulness -- brainstorming! -- rather than anger.

Takes some work, but over time you find yourself never "bottling up" anger; instead, when you get frustrated, you find yourself exploring solutions.

I agree that recovery timeline may vary from one marriage to the next. But based on my understanding of MB concepts, the progression of recovery is somewhat similar. For a WS it starts with symptoms of withdrawal from OP and ends with complete love for BS. This process is possible only with implementation of MB concepts. However, I would like to learn about all of the intermediate stages that a WS is experiencing before the final recovery. It would be especially helpful to hear about the recovery experiences from FWSs. I think I have a pretty good understanding of my WH's state: he is now past withdrawal and is beggining to appreciate our marriage. He himself is talking about the fog lifting for him, which is a huge progress considering that before when I refered to him being in A fog at the time when he behaved like he was temporarily insane (he briefly moved out), he kept saying that I was reading too many psycho-babble books.

I think that what we BSs suffer is trauma that alters our brain chemistry, and it takes awhile for the brain to recover. In severe cases--which so many of us have--it is like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and in fact, If you google Post Infidelity Stress Disorder you'll see lots written about it, the symptoms and stages. As far as I can see, the PTSD diagnosis is in line with Dr. H's teachings. Here's one Google quote:
"The phrase "broken heart" belies the real trauma behind the all-too-common occurrence of infidelity. Psychologist Dennis Ortman likens the psychological aftermath of sexual betrayal to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in its origin and symptoms, including anxiety, irritability, rage, emotional numbing, and flashbacks."
(I'm not recommending D. Ortman's book per se, but I feel this quote is right on.)
It helps me enormously to know that my symptoms and progress are normal. I am 18 mos. post D-Day, hampered by some painful trickle truth, and it has been the worst time of my life, but I do see it getting better. I can now go a few hours at a time without intrusive thoughts about some aspect of the A, and I am getting better at stopping the thoughts before they get the better of me. My reaction to triggers has lessened. And yes, I experienced the anger episodes you describe at 6-9 mos. I still have occasional meltdowns but fewer and fewer. Recovery isn't a straight line, and stages will differ in part due to individual circumstances. Resentment and an inability to not talk about the A with my H have slowed down my progress. But it's gotten much better.
MB has been our salvation, and my FWH is completely on board with it. Learning how typical my reactions are have kept him from giving up on us when I've had severe meltdowns. He is very remorseful, which is so important. Reading of others' experiences has helped him see how typical our story is, and has helped him understand both his and my behavior. It has helped both of us to know that I will get better with time, as long as we continue to work the MB program together.
Hope this helps. Hang in there, it does get better ...

I'm speaking as FWS. I'd like to say that this is not very productive to always ask how do you feel about OP from the FWS. You see, NC doesn't only mean physical NC, it also means mental NC, thus you don't think and discuss OP anymore. Of course, you still do, because BS wants to know and sometimes you would want to share and from time to time it still surfaces, but in general this is the subject to avoid. Talking about it makes one think about it, and it regenerates memories which we'd like to forget. My policy so far has been that even if my mind slips there, I will immediately think about my husband, some fun stuff we have done together lately and these things fade.

Once the details are clear, questions answered, the less you talk about OP the more you help your WS to become a normal person again.

I think my H can say how remorseful I am. I regret it all, some mistakes you make for life, I see the damage in him, in my son and daughter. And in me. I was quite egoistic before, but this period in my life took me to "new level". I'm still making amends and I'm very grateful for MB because this is accountability for life, and I need it.

The only "stage" I would press on in FWS's recovery is MB progamme. This stage you have to be for life.

yb1,
I am going to try to tell you my timeline but here's the thing: I don't see how your WH can ever repair while still working with the OW.

About a year ago, my affair started to crumble. POSOM and I were trying to break it off. He finally made that happen on April 5th, 2011, by calling my BH and telling him about the affair.

I showed remorse right away. I didn't want to lose my husband. However, I was in false recovery for 2 months.I was still email and chatting with OM.
Finally I wrote a NC letter end of May.

During months 3 and 4 after D-Day, I was holding up ok until I looked at OM's FB page to find he had a girlfriend. This brought me back to Day 1 of recovery (which is why I find it hard to believe that your husband can recover even "seeing" the OW.)

Basically I was severly depressed/suicidal for 6 months post D-Day.

Month 7 I started feeling better because I had absolutely no contact.

I am in month 11 after D-Day now and the only time I feel badly is when something triggers me. I have found ways to bring myself back though.

Your husband's timeline is dependent on what he's doing to recover. If I had to see my POSOM ever again, it would bring me back to day 1 of recovery. The high was that strong. Your WH has to get a new job and you need to work the MB program.

So don't know if this helps any but this has been my timeline.
CT

Thank you for sharing your inspiring experiences and insight. I agree, the situation in which my FWH is continuing to see OP (about once every couple of weeks) is a cardinal violation of the MB principles of recovery. He has been looking for another job for the past 3 months without success. He will be on a temporary assignment in another state for 4 months and I will join him during this time. However, at the moment, we have to face the prospect of him returning to his permament job unless something materializes, which in this economy, looks highly unlikely. Our recovery is somewhat arrested due to continued triggers for him (he is trying to minimize the time that he spends in public areas to avoid her) and for me, which is pretty much every time he goes to work. I have lots of expectations with respect to the 4-month assignment, which I hope will accelerate the pace of our recovery.

Thank you so much, GloveOil, for sharing your experience and perspective. Your posts are so compelling and your humility and humanity are truly an inspiration for all of us. Do you have any other advice to FWSs out there with respect to recovery?

The issue that I am currently struggling with is that FWS looking at the EA/PA as a "growing" experience for him, without which he would not be as committed as he is now to rebuilding our marriage. He admits that EA/PA was deeply entrenched in fantasy, but, nevertheless, in his view, it was a source of great lessons-learned. I don't know if this is just a part of his male psyche of never viewing his mistakes as mistakes, but rather as learning opportunities, or whethere it is a symptom that he is still in the A fog land.

Our marriage now is eons better than it was pre-A, but there are still many issues that we need to work through: one of them being my resentment towards him and OP and difficulty with forgiving.

yb, I'm not that humble, but maybe (in the same spirit as Churchill's withering observation, "He's a modest man, with much to be modest about"), just chained to the fact that I've got much to be humble about, thanks to my past (mis)conduct.


It's fog-talk.

True story: I remember at one point during the affair, telling OW that she had "enriched my life." And feeling, at the time, that it was true.


Excuse me.


I am embarrassed for myself to have ever thought that, to have ever spoken it. In retrospect, it didn't enrich my life one iota. Rather, it almost cost me everything in my life that I hold dear or worthwhile. What did I get in the end? I got to see firsthand how cheaters, liars and deceivers live. I got to see another couple's crumbling marriage from the inside, and I got the knowledge that I even helped to tear it down myself. I got to learn what it feels like to have broken my wedding vows, and what it feels like to know that I can't undo that. I got to feel certain that friends of mine, even those that have stuck with us, will never look at me quite the same again.

And everything in that paragraph above is just the stuff that's about me. What about my wife? My learning all of that -- really, all consequences that I already knew about and/or easily could've envisioned prior to the affair anyway, but chose to disregard or imagine away -- came at a huge cost to her.

For your husband to maintain that he grew from this experience is like a man who grows richer by robbing a stranger, or a man who grows less hungry by eating his dinner companion's dessert while she's in the restroom, or a man who grows a few inches taller by knocking someone down and standing on their back while they're lying there in the dirt. His "growth" came at your expense. If he "got" that fact, then he wouldn't be characterizing it as "growing." He'd be too embarrassed to let his lips form the phrase, or to let his mind think it. Maybe he'll get there, but he's not there yet.

You don't "grow" through infidelity, you survive it. Maybe like cancer. (Except no one chooses cancer.) We don't see books with titles like "Betray Your Spouse and Grow Wise." It wouldn't pass the laugh test. And even if a very cynical book-publisher thought about taking a chance on it, the numbers wouldn't work -- people would be too embarrassed to be seen reading or possessing a book so titled, and so they wouldn't buy it.

Cancer doesn't make anyone healthier or stronger, physically or mentally. After the chemo or the radiation or the surgery, the mental toughness of bouncing back, and the physical toughness from dedicated rehab, might leave some people stronger. Likewise, one doesn't grow from infidelity. One may grow -- or not -- depending upon how one pulls oneself out of it.

I'm not sure what you or your husband should do. But those there are some truths to chew on.

This is great and spot on GO -- YB1 ... this suggests your husband is still looking at your Pre-A marriage, the mistakes you made, and justifying his behavior because you were a not so good wife.

The goal is for him to own his faults in the Pre-A marriage and his adultery as 100% his ... then and only then can one grow.

GO said it best.


Anyone who is okay with doing something at someone else's expense hasn't grown ... infact that is how immature, entitled, non-contrite waywards think.

It is the five year old playground stinkin' thinkin'

"Sally pushed me so I pushed her back ... because that makes it fair that way"

My suggestion is for your WH to read a couple things from Dr. Harley

Ouch that hurt and his Giver and Taker book.

Thank you GO and Pray! You, guys, and this forum, is what keeps me going. It is discouraging, at times, to see how slow this process of recovery is. My FWH, obviously, has a long way ahead of him. There has been a huge improvement in his stance with respect to the A and our M in the past 3 months so I am hopeful that the next 3 months will be equally effective in this recovery process, although I know this is not a linear progression, by any means. I let him read an excerpt from this thread and he became extremely defensive, claiming that he even views the death of his mother as an experience from which he grew. Any other advice?

Yes, it is a reflection of the fog. Just change the crime to RAPE and you will see it in its proper perspective. Your H has no remorse, which means he is not serious. How would you view a rapist who told you that raping you was a "growing experience" for him? Wouldn't you understand that you are not safe with him? If your husband's adultery was a great experience for him in the past, it will be the same in the future.

A wayward husband who is not remorseful is not a candidate for recovery and is not serious. Dr Harley says that unless the WH comes to you with hat in hand with great sorrow, he is not ready for recovery. That does not apply to WW's, though.

The reason he is not remorseful and not out of the fog is because he still sees the OW. He will stay this way until all contact ends.


You won't forgive and you won't get over the resentment unless and until the proper steps for recovery are taken. Your resentment will grow, not lessen.

"The issue that I am currently struggling with is that FWS looking at beating me up as a "growing" experience for him, without which he would not be as committed as he is now to rebuilding our marriage. He admits that beating me up was deeply entrenched in fantasy, but, nevertheless, in his view, it was a source of great lessons-learned. I don't know if this is just a part of his male psyche of never viewing his mistakes as mistakes, but rather as learning opportunities, or whethere it is a symptom that he is still in the A fog land."