Just some quick details:

Male, married 33 years, 2 daughters (one on her own now and the other a HS Sr. going to college in the fall).

Longtime struggles with conflict in marriage, checked out emotionally about 10 years ago intending just to tough it out for the kid's sake until about now oddly enough.

Foolishly (as I clearly see now) got involved with a woman at work about 5 years ago. Ended that and have promised my wife and vowed to myself never to be anywhere she is or have any communication with her. And it's been > 4 years on that now without any slips, nor has there been any other infidelity. As I read some of the material here I am amazed at how blinded I was.

My wife and I went to counseling, worked through the His Needs Her Needs book on our own. Went to the Dynamic Marriage class.

At this point, I feel like I'm at the same point from about 10 years ago where I just want to checkout emotionally. I feel like the His/Her Needs material and the class really helped me understand what was wrong in our relationship. Knowing my top 5 ENs, how they were lacking, and how the OW met them taught me how powerful this whole idea is. My ENs are really not all that different from typical male:

1) Affection (In my case physical but non-sexual)
2) Sexual Fulfillment
3) Admiration
4) Attractive Spouse
5) Recreational Companionship

The problem then (and what continues now) is what I now know to be a $0 balance in the bank account for ALL of these.

Compounding this for me is that both during our personal study of the His/Her Needs and the Dynamic Marriage class, my wife is either unable or unwilling to identify even one EN in her life. We've talked about this many times, with the counselor and without, and she still maintains that she has no such needs.

Of course this just adds to my feelings of "not being needed" by her. I've not, however, just been sitting around hoping that she might come to realize her ENs. I've been actively and consistently trying to meet what I think her needs are based on how I know her. But that hasn't really helped me get any of my ENs met by her. When we talk about it, she says that these are not really needs, just wants, and I'm being selfish by needing them.

As you might imagine, I'm really struggling about what to do next. If I checkout again that will lead down the same road I've been down before and I do not want to do that under any circumstances. I do not want to get a divorce, I love my wife and believe that there are always alternatives to that.

So what to do, where to go next?

Have all your Wife's Extraordinary precautions been enforced and vetted since your adultery ended?

If yes, then the only way to get your wife to meet your EN's is if you work extra hard to meet her EN's. I suspect you may have Lovebusters towards her and that has put up a wall.

If Openness and honesty are key to her (may be a top EN since your adultery) have you been 100% radically honest with her in the past five years?

If not, then I suggest you start there.

I would sit her down and ask her how you can meet her needs, that you want to do a radical honest talk with her (as laid out in HNHN/Lovebusters), and implement more EP's if she needs.

Then I would spend the next two years working on meeting her needs to bring her back to intimacy.

Once her needs are met ... her feelings of your neglect ... will then disappear and she will be happy to meet your needs because she will be in love with you.

My thought is your adultery is still the 800 pound elephant in the room, and until that is fully addressed she may never trust you again.

You may want to encourage her to also post here so we can walk her through identifying her EN's.

I agree. The affair still has effects in this M.

Do you still work with this woman? When is the last time you saw her and/or talked with her? How long did the affair last and how did you end it? What extraordinary precautions (EPs) do you practice to prevent this affair or a new one from starting? Does your wife know what EPs you are practicing?

AM

Hi Desperate, welcome to Marriage Builders. Your experience is exactly WHY Dr Harley does not endorse programs like Dynamic Marriage and traditional marriage counseling. They fail to teach you how to restore the romantic love in your marriage. The way to restore the romantic love in your marriage is to devote 20+ hours to UA time, meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. Taking that step will make the biggest, fastest impact on your marriage.

If you would get Dr Harley's $11 workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love, you will find his lessons along with the UA worksheet. The UA time should be scheduled out for the week because time that is scheduled is harder to put off.

Another key element of recovery after an affair is affair proofing your marriage. Did you end all contact for life with the OW. Did you cease opposite sex friendships? Answer all of your wife's questions about your affair?

p.s. please find a more unique screen name. There about about 5,000 "desperate" names on this board. It will be hard to keep your story straight.

I will try to address questions/issues raised in order:

--Have all your Wife's Extraordinary precautions been enforced and vetted since your adultery ended?

Not sure what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

--I would sit her down and ask her how you can meet her needs

We've discussed this together many times. She acknowledges no needs and doesn't accept that Dr. Harley's ENs theory is valid. She does not believe that she has any obligation to fulfill any "needs" that I think I might have because the things listed in HNHN book are "wants" not needs. Nobody "needs" a "want".

--Once her needs are met ... her feelings of your neglect ... will then disappear and she will be happy to meet your needs because she will be in love with you.

How do you meet needs that don't exist? Or will not be acknowledged? I guess that may be the root of my question altogether. I believe that Dr. Harley is spot-on. When I first read HNHN it clicked immediately. If there is anything I could do to meet her needs better, I'd do it.

--My thought is your adultery is still the 800 pound elephant in the room, and until that is fully addressed she may never trust you again.

I'm sure that never goes completely away, but I don't think that's the issue. Firstly, I've been 100% faithful since admitting to the affair. There has been ZERO contact with OW and I'm committed to keeping it that way. I was able to change my work situation and work from another city. So I am NEVER where the OW is. We don't communicate in any form at any time. But the problems pre-date the affair. As I said, things have returned to "normal". But normal is not good.

--p.s. please find a more unique screen name

Sorry about that. Did so... (That, at least, was easy!!)

Her needs DO exist, her love bank is just not open to you. Her bank is closed off to you. My suggestion would be to speak to Steve Harley on your own and get his help in selling her on this program. When your own efforts dont' work, it is time to call on the professionals.

I would calmly and respectfully explain to her that ENs in this context are not like physical needs such as oxygen and water; they point to the things needed to feel romantic love. For instance, if she needed affection to feel romantic love, she would not fall in love with someone who neither touched her or talked to her in affectionate manner. If she needed conversation, she would not fall in love with monosyllabic conversationalist ("hey, I saw this really cool story about a man-eating dinofish in the Mississipi river, think it is possible?" "No." "They have skeletal remains, want to see the picture?" "sure." --glances, hands it back--"neat." "What do you think it is?" "dunno." "I think it's a catfish, do you think it could be a catfish?" "yes.")

Get her on the phone with Steve, he can explain this concept very well. If she wants you to be in love with her and avoid a divorce, it is in her best interest to fulfill your needs and guide you in meeting hers, as well.

She must be as withdrawn as you have been. Amazingly, there are many people who think that is the way marriage works. My own mother is shocked and somewhat disgusted by the older affectionate couples she meets, as she thinks this is not normal, even though her parents were very much in love for over 65 years.

Thanks for the comments.

>She must be as withdrawn as you have been

My wife is perfectly happy with the status quo. She does not want to change anything, she does not agree that anything needs to change.

From her viewpoint the problems are all in my head. I want things (and the key word here is want) that she does not consider important.

>Her needs DO exist, her love bank is just not open to you

I agree 100% that they do exist. And I am pretty sure what they are, at least the top few.

1) Family Commitment
2) Financial Support
3) Domestic Support

In our discussions she acknowledges the I do a great job in these areas. She does not acknowledge these as needs, emotional or otherwise, but based on my observations, these are her top 3 ENs.

The REASON she cites those as her top EN's is because she is not in love with you. When a spouse is not in love, they tend to place the most importance on the NON-intimate ENs because they are emotionally withdrawn. People don't fall in love and stay in love over those needs because they are not INTIMATE emotional needs. None of those needs were being met when you dated and fell in love. The most important emotional needs to focus on are: conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. If she won't let you meet those needs, she won't be in love with you.

And if she won't engage in your marriage, I would use the Marriage Builders professional programs to motivate her. Most couples who enroll in the MB course, for example, have at least one reluctant spouse. They can usually turn that around.