I know, you think I'm being cruel and brutal, but I'm really not. You need to lose the sense of entitlement you have completely. ALL DECISIONS are your husband's. You have zero say in anything. Before you can rise to the top you have to hit rock bottom. I am fully convinced of that. IF your husband decides to R, THEN you work on rebuilding the marriage together as a team, using DR. Harley's advice. You have no right to try to influence his decision, AT ALL. If my wife had tried to persuade me to reconcile, we would be divorced today. She PROVED that I was and am EVERYTHING to her, and that I was and am in control of her life, future, in short....everything. I CHOSE to give my wife a second chance, and I know that she willingly and happily will prove my choice right. Can you do this for twenty years, when you couldn't for three?

Mirror, how does this help this woman recover her marriage? Yes, it's a short-term marriage. Yes she has cheated twice. But she's here now trying to get it right AND she's counseling with one if the Harleys. Why would you want to discourage her? People can change and do change. My marriage is living proof of that.

Of course I want my BH to forgive me. Who wouldn't? What exactly have I posted here that makes you think I just want bygones to be bygones? I am not trying to sweep anything under a rug. And as for not taking your advice- why would I when it directly contradicts Steve Harley's? How many marriages have you successfully counseled to recovery?

As for wanting what's best for BH, I DO want what's best for him. And I've told him that-even if that means I'm not in the picture. But guess what...that's for HIM to decide. Not me, and certainly not you.

Entitlement? To what exactly? Just because I want my M to be saved, does not mean I feel that I deserve it to be saved. What gives you the idea that I think decisions are not my BHs? Please, do tell, how you know if I've hit rock bottom or not? Just because I don't post all of my feelings on this thread does not mean that they're not there.
Ummm....we ARE talking to Steve Harley and taking his advice. I have not tried persuading him to reconcile, the only thing I asked him was to please take some time before he made his decision. Did I ask if he would talk to Steve? Yes. BH made that decision. BH continues to make the decision to keep talking with Steve. BH makes the decision to spend time with me. BH is making the decision to continue living in the same house with me. BH makes the decision to call me when he's gone. BH makes the decision if he wants to have SF with me. BH is making a conscious effort to pray and discern God's will in all of this.

The only "influencing" I am doing is with the change in my actions. And I very much do have a right do change my actions.

I'm not sure if cruel and brutal are the right terms. A lot of what you write seems quite irrational, and not directly related to anything I've said or done, but seems to come in from left field. You seem to have this belief that people do not have the ability to change and transform their lives. Or is it just your WW who had the ability to change?

Doro, I'm not trying to convince you necessarily. I'm more interested in presenting a dissenting viewpoint to your husband , if he ever reads these posts. It is certainly in your best interest to reconcile, but is it in your husband's? Dr. Harley will try to show HOW your marriage can recover, and his principles work , if the desire to R is there. I feel that your husband may read these posts and be persuaded that R is the best course. I think that he deserves to choose without prejudice. BTW, considering your situation, I would be careful about calling people irrational

Of course you can change, most people do.

Doro,

I was thinking about your comments about alcohol. My H had a drunken ONS in 2004, as he was going through the re-deployment processing from Iraq. At the time, I knew something was wrong, but didn't know what had happened. His other affair occurred in 2007/08, with a co-worker that he met in Kuwait on his second deployment. I think the contribution of alcohol was that the drunken ONS made the second affair "easier". He had less of a boundary to cross. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe his EA/PA would have occurred in any case. He was on the slippery slope, just had less far to slide.

My H was not alcoholic, did not attend AA. His EPs include never drinking in mixed gender company and never more than one beer if I am not present.


AM

Please try to keep your advice & suggestions helpful and based on Dr Harley's concepts & principles.

Doro, look: You exist. By your very existence, you're going to have some sort of influence on your BH day-to-day. Whether you call him or ignore him, whether you speak on your own or only when spoken to, whether you do things to try to meet his needs or not. The notion that you must not influence him in any way, is an impossible standard to attain, and thus is not practicable advice.

As long as you're not pressing him in any way -- for a decision by a certain deadline, for a list of his ENs, for anything at all -- then I wouldn't worry about unduly influencing him. (Some folks might describe that as "manipulating" rather than "influencing." There is a difference, and maybe that's where the last couple of pages' conversation here on this thread has been getting sidetracked?)

You need to work with the set of cards you're holding, the set you've dealt to yourself: Meet the needs he's helped you identify & allowed you to meet, give him space when he wants space, and be accessible to him for if/when he wants you around. Always be honest, about the past as well as the present. If he asks what you want, tell him. You're allowed to ask what his feelings are. (You're not allowed to be upset if he's not up to telling you at any given time.) Be as transparent in your conduct & associations as you can possibly be. And be patient. You can no longer 100% be the same woman on whose finger he was happy put a ring, but your best bet is to try to be a better, wiser version of that woman, every hour. (That's no guarantee that he'll come to a place where he wants to be all-in on recovery, but it's your only shot.) Hang in there. Praying for you & your H this morning.

No I don't think you want to quit Doro. I just felt like sharing my own experience of why your approach is better than that.

Did Steve H give you any tasks, things you should be working on?

As long as you're not pressing him in any way...then I wouldn't worry about unduly influencing him.

An absolute pearl from GO.....

But I think you know this, and your apparent abdicative statements ("BH made...BH continues to make...BH makes...BH is making...BH makes...BH makes...BH is making...") were in defense of accusations that you would be unduly driving BH's recovery process.

Continue to let BH know what your preferences are; explain the "whys" behind them; assure him of the rewards of your preferences (also known as "Plan A'ing" to the max!); give him the leeway to understand your position; and let him come to your (MB-consistent) position on his own.

MM, Doro, (and others that may be reading),

I think what may be missing here is what I call the "DUH" factor. It's that point where the WS sometimes has a moment of clarity and says "duh.. What am I doing? This is a good spouse I have and I'm destroying them and myself". It's that moment of realization that you're tossing something good away for garbage. True, for some it is like a faucet slowly turned on, but for other WS' it floods like water from a broken dam.

The truth is, she may have loved her H, but simply loved him poorly during that time.

CV

MM,

I respectfully disagree with you here. Every man is different in this respect. If my wife HADN'T constantly begged for reconciliation, I would be divorced now. Her persistence in pushing for reconciliation along with her demonstrated change in person convinced me to stick it out (thankfully!).

I do agree that the BS needs show no sense of entitlement, but I believe that is different from a desire to stick it out and reconcile.

Now I disagree (to a certain extent) that ALL decisions are the BS'... She can decide to work, maintain EP's, healthy boundaries, provide just compensation, etc... but the decision to stay or go is to an certain extent both of theirs. She can decide to work and hope he wants to stay, or she can decide to go and not do the work. Those ARE decisions.

CV

An excellent post, GO. Doro must absolutely NOT!!!! press her husband , in any way. She makes no....I repeat...no demands on him, and that includes no PERCEIVED demands.

I'm not clear if you are posting to Doro or her BH, which is confusing MM - he does have his own thread.

What on earth is a PERCEIVED demand? Advice is supposed to be of practical help - what are you asking her to actually do?

And is the advice at all based on Dr Hs methods or is it a personal philosphy?

CV, My wife , at first did ALL of that. She begged, cried ,pleaded, promised.....and it made no difference to me. On one memorable occasion, she actually got down on her belly and begged forgiveness. All it did was piss me off. One because her words meant nothing, and two because I hate drama. I told her then that I was a free agent and would do what I please, it was up to her to prove , every minute of every day that she was worthy of my even considering giving her an opportunity to R. This is what I mean. I don't think that Doro is fully aware of the ENORMITY of the task before her, and that it will take far longer than her marriage has even existed before, for her husbands wounds to heal.

MM,

I guess that might be a defining difference between us. I never considered myself a free agent. I took vows and they still bound me, even though I had the right to leave any time. That's why it must be words *coupled* with actions.

CV

It is based on my own experience, Indie. Every time I felt any pressure, or PERCIEVED that demands were being made, I instantly became angry and defensive, and our recovery would be stalled. BTW, I don't know who Doro's husband is, or I would post on his thread, and leave this one. I am primarily interested in helping him.

I guess so, CV. Once I was aware of her affair, I felt that nulified any promises or vows I made to her or about her.

She begged, cried ,pleaded, promised.....and it made no difference to me. On one memorable occasion, she actually got down on her belly and begged forgiveness. All it did was piss me off. One because her words meant nothing, and two because I hate drama. I told her then that I was a free agent and would do what I please...

Your level of "rigor" and "indifference" to her pain and humiliation post-discovery, MM, is (was?) remarkable. The two of you, as you move forward together, are very lucky that your high-end demands were attainable by your FWW. Would it shock you to hear my opinion that most women could not "measure up" to the standard you demanded?

Where you overreach in your note is in your projecting your righteous, foreboding outlook onto DoroM's BH, and telling her that she should be doing more, better, because her efforts are inadequate for his needs. I'm not sure we have the evidence in hand for that decision. Obviously, your ability to countenance recovery after two betrayals by your FWW would be nil (as, btw, would be mine), but their dynamic is THEIR dynamic.

DoroM has the burden of playing her game holding no aces or trumps. Telling her she has to sweep the tricks or admit failure is unfair.

ETA: I stand (as usual) with CV - I never considered myself a free agent.

I think this is where the confusion is coming in. It is impossible for Doro to respond to advice tailored to her BH.

She has to work on her side of the fence and she cannot consider quitting. He however does have the right to bail, but as Steve H has advised, he's unlikely to heal any quicker without Doros help.

If she were exhibiting toxic behaviour or an unwillingness to stick to an MB recovery plan it would be different. And we would ALL be recommending he D her if that were the case.

He hasn't posted in a while, but his name is SOS516