when you don't know about mb from the start?

my turn, in a nutshell:

bloody computer!

(f?)ws had weekend fling with some girl he met on the internet 5 years ago. attended IC/MC for 6 months, during that time had trickle truth & withdrawal, but committed finally after that.

on one occasion about a year later some young girl (21) kept texting him jokes and things, and i said that's a no-go. we had a fight about it (oops) but in the end he worked out that he couldn't "be nice" to other people if it made me feel uncomfortable.

fast forward:
last thursday i found some jokey fb chats with one of his models (he's a photographer). i told him they made me uncomfortable, and that he would have to delete ay females from fb that weren't relatives, and keep strictly to business conversations with business people. seemed to go ok, then...

last night i picked up his phone and found several text message t said girl: "sorry i have to delete you off fb but my missus snooped and read our chats. she's so insecure." etc etc.

me today: am i done yet? made it very clear last nigh that even if the chats were indeed "innocent" the texts were not - they were insolent and disrespectful (i can put in the whole message if anyone wants), and his attitude was not acceptable. he grabbed me by the arm and tried to grab his phone. this is the first time in 17 years he's ever acted aggresive towards me. i had already forwarded all the messages to my phone, as well as the chats.

today i am seeing a lawyer for a consultaion for D, though it's not what i want at all. i have also requested a phone appt with dr harley, i have created a list of EPs, and installed spyware on our home computer.

not two weeks ago i mentioned how much i appreciated his openness in our joint access to everything, and now i'm a crazy,insecure "snoop." i don't know whether to be pissed off or cry. guidance, please? you guys are so right - action gives you such power!

forgot to mention that our lawyer is looking into a private polygraph, and i am working on Qs for it now. (we're not in the states; we don't have access to such services on demand.)

here are my EPs, which i had drawn up BEFORE the drama last nght!i'm sure i'm LBing in a couple places; please help me refine them. feel free to 2x4 - i'm so angry, and i'm allowing anger to get in the way of progress i think.

i should probably add that i've been hanging around MB for several months now, though i didn't join until more recently. i've been trying toimplement the concepts, but was a little reticent, to my detriment. i've been foolish; now i want to be smart.

Extreme Precautions*

In order to create a sense of stability and security for my wife and my marriage, I will:

1. Delete all females from my facebook page except for relatives
2. Not real-time chat with any females I am not related to
3. Contact MM models only via MM, for which I have given my wife my password
4. Contact models not on MM via email, for which my wife has the password
5. When contacting models, only talk �business� - no personal conversations
6. Not accept any �old friend� contacts without my wife�s express agreement, and also give her my password for this site
7. Always think of my wife�s feelings, and consider that she is sensitive to any possible inappropriate talk due to my own actions, so I promise to consider her feelings first and always
8. Not engage in any texting conversations of a personal manner with any females. Business-related texts only.
9. I will not delete any texts sent or received on any phone or internet account without my wife�s express agreement
10. I will tell my wife immediately if any female attempts to �add� me to any account
11. I will tell my wife immediately if any female attempts to engage me in personal conversation, as well as tell my wife what I did to avoid the situation
12. I will not put anything before my wife as more important: not work, hobbies, photography, cars, etc. My marriage is the most important part of my life and it comes first.


As well as �not� do things, I also promise to:

1. I will learn about Marriage Builders and actively work the programme
2. I will read �extraordinary precautions� down at the bottom of the response to the letter in the link so I understand that this agreement is not about punishment, but about building a strong marital relationship that will create trust between my wife and I http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html
3. I will fill in the MB worksheets, particularly the Love Busters questionnaire so my wife knows what behaviours make withdrawals from my Love Bank, and can be avoided.
4. I will fill in the MB worksheets, and consider revising my Top 5 Emotional Needs to reflect what was missing earlier in our relationship.
5. I will complete #3-4 so my wife understands where she let me down previously, so she can make sure she meets my Emotional Needs and doesn�t inadvertently cause Love Busters
6. I will actively engage in making deposits into my wife�s Love Bank
7. I will consciously avoid making Love Busters due to �not knowing� what they are.
8. I understand that my behaviour is a direct result of my own decisions. I will not make excuses; instead, I will be 100% responsible for my choices and its outcomes.
9. I will read the 10 steps (scroll down after opening the link and look for the 1 - 10) for showing affection and do them each day so my wife feels the love I have for her http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.html
10. I will make every attempt to understand the Policy of Joint Agreement, and follow the steps for making discussion of issues calm and rational
11. I will avoid being away from home overnight, and if it can�t be avoided, I will skype my wife while I am away.
12. I will make every effort to spend at least 15 hours a week in Undivided Attention time with my wife. I understand that this also means I receive 15 hours of her attention! UA time will be planned in advance, and I will actively engage in deciding what to do together.
13. I will discuss and begin a jointly enjoyable recreation activity so that we can have fun together doing something we BOTH enjoy
14. I will keep in mind that my wife does not consider chore time together time. Chores are in addition to Undivided Attention time.
15. I will accept that my wife loves me and allow her to show me she loves me without pushing her away.

This list may be added to and subtracted from at any time after POJA.

6 March 2012

*Amendments to stay in marriage/marital home:
1. I will submit to a polygraph test
2. I will attend joint MC with Dr Harley
3. I will sign a post-nuptial agreement drafted by our attorney
4. I will immediately learn about MB concepts and agree to actively work the programme starting immediately.

Letty,

I would strongly consider that your husbands career may be the ultimate EP. For as long as he continues to work in that field (I am well aware of the MM website), I'm not sure you will ever truly enter recovery.

I know the MM site from the perspective of a few former female friends from back in my late teens/early 20's. It was pretty well known that they were desperate to get the modeling jobs no matter what, and they know that it can be easy to charm a man in his 50's.

good point, alis. he does have a "real" job - the photography is just extra $$. i've never minded the photography, even when we lived in the states and the models were wowsers. but then, i didn't have a reason to at that time. i think you are correct. i'll add that to the polygraph Qs: will you give up photograghy of people (think ok to stick with cars/bikes? most mags don't even accept pix w/girls nowadays)

That sounds smart, Letty. I would also focus on getting into contact with Mr. Harley himself asap.

yes, i have sent in the form for an appt with dates/times and explnation of time difference (we are southern hemisphere). the site says USA/CAN, but i can ring the states for an hour no problem with our homeline plan as my family all live in the usa and i call them a lot. hoping that won't be a problem for dr h.
greatly looking forward to it. expensive, but what is $$ when your marriage is at stake? besides, if you need to take serious action, you may as well get the best. my experience in '07 with IC/MC was less than stellar.

Letty,

So sorry to read of your recent developments! It's obvious that your H has terrible boundaries with women.

I think everything you are asking is very reasonable - and absolutely to the photography limitations!

It seems we all start out reticent to do the really hard, tough love things to save our marriages but once smacked with reality, you realize it's the only way. The slap on the wrists just do more harm than good.

You are right to be concerned about your H calling you a snoop. Glad you called him out on it! Reign fire on him now before it gets any worse than it is. (Well, you know - in the MB way.)


SO: have you read up on Plan A and Plan B? Carrot and stick...all that?

Letty, I agree he has to give up the photography of women. That really is a threat to your marriage.

I am going to suggest a different approach, though. Your H has not bought into the idea of extraordinary precautions and thinks you are "insecure" and "jealous." He still doesn't understand the risk. My suggestion would be have him speak to Steve Harley and let Steve do the explaining.


This is not the type of question you would ask on a polygraph. A polygraph question would a true or false question. You should make it one of your conditions that he give up photography of women AND that he kill all opposite sex friendships as a condition of marriage.

The radio show today had an EXCELLENT segment on "jealousy" and "insecurity. You really must listen to it.

just came back from meeting with attorney. not very joyous. the trouble with living in another country is that their culture is so different. here it's very much a "oh well" society. while she was interested in MB, she found most of the process repellent. also, turns out i can do all my own paperwork. it's completely no-fault. also,i cannot remove him from the family home.

thank you, sunnyd and melody, for your comments. so far, i have 0 polygraph questions. i am going to listen to the radio show now, and will be back.

well, ws has agreed to all 5 conditions (polygraph, MC with Dr Harley, post-nup, actively work MB starting immediately, not photograph any women. period.) to remain in the home. he has also agreed to the EPs i posted earlier, amended to delete MM accout and not photograph anything with 2 legs rather than 4 wheels. i am plan a-ing as well as i can, trying to avoid AO (not easy!). we spent the evening working through the LB worksheets (again) and have, i think, a better understanding of what they are and how they appear.

i am feeling...bad. i feel that this is just a band-aid and that this whole thing is going to fall apart because he will not actually do anything that he says he's going to, and i'm going to have to pull the plug. so while i'm plan a-ing, i'm also putting a plan b into place. i am disappointed with the complete lack of support shown by those around me that are supposed to be here to help. culture shock strikes again. i can't get over that lawyer saying "all you need to know is whether he' willing to commit to the marriage. everything else is just details that don't help you." that sounds like the same kind of rubbish you get from ICs. my largest problem in this M is that h doesn't talk to me! (about anything important) i am going to try 2 different attorneys tomorrow (after all, a consult is just a consult), but wonder why i should bother, since you don't need an attorney to file for divorce here, should it come to that, and the required 2 year separation period does not need a lawyer. i'm hoping one of them will be more amenable to helping me and perhaps being an IM should i need one. i cannot have him removed from the family home against his will, nor can it be sold without his agreement. i'm not sure if these are good or bad things.

i could really use some help with poly Qs - have no idea where to start. everything i've tried so far is not suitable.

i'm also working on 6 ideas/topics to discuss at the 6 free MC sessions we get through the family court. i figured if noting, they could function as mediator as we try to have rational discussions. what do you think? i desperately need him to open up and tell me how he feels if we are to make any progress whatsoever.

i will not be avaiable to post at all tomorrow, but will be looking forward to hearing from your expertise!

I would pass on the free court sessions. I've seen to many couples get bad advice so being you have a call set up go with the harley's first.

You have to remember, Letty, that lawyers are in the business of divorce and are not schooled in how to save a marriage. Oh, they may "believe" in marriage but they are certainly no one to be listening to - except for the few we have around here, of course! It's a shame that the one you saw spouted off advice that was so terrible! It would've been better to be quiet and stick to the area of expertise - the law!

I'm sorry you aren't getting the support you need.

You know what, it's a good thing for you to be skeptical right now rather than just being elated that H has agreed to your terms. That makes you wise - very wise. Do you know how many BSs are starry-eyed at the thought that they are not going to lose their marriage and then endure a false recovery because they didn't push follow through? You WON'T be one of those!

You need to determine some consequences if your H doesn't stick to the plan. Set some time tables and start planning your 15-20 hours of UA time. That time together will be the most important step right now. Because of what you've just gone through, you will need closer to 20 hours than 15. When you spend that time together, his sharing will become easier. I know HNHN made a big difference with my H - he finally understood why I needed conversation so much!

I wish I could help you on the poly Q's but I never went through that so I'm not as much an expert in that area as others around here. I can't think of anything other than basics:
Have you discussed meeting up?
Have you discussed sex?
Have you gone out?
Have you had contact?
Have you had physical contact?
Have you opened any secret email accounts?
Have you closed down x,y, and z?
Have you made it known that you will no longer photograph people?
Any secret facebook or other social networking accounts?
Stopped all conversations?

I agree that the free court sessions are useless and could really make things worse rather than help - sad, but true. (Unless this person was willing to work with MB principles.)

That would be a disaster that will cause more harm than good. Counseling couples in conflict together is a bad idea because the couples spend the hour lovebusting. That is a disaster in an already weakened marriage. These couples leave more angry and bitter than they went it. You would seriously be better off going out to dinner or getting a pedicure, those activities won't harm your marriage.

Here is the link to Dr. Harley's articles about marriage counseling: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

read this about poly questions

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2473858#Post2473858

thank you all. i agree, IC is a time-wasting, money-wasting hole, and when we went through it 5 years ago i hated every last second. i felt really pressured into it from the lawyer. when they call to make the appt, i will cancel.

i still haven't heard back from the harleys - it's been over 24 hours now. i thought the form said expect a 24 hour turn around, but then, i imagine they get a LOT of requests, so i'm trying to wait patiently.

woke this morning feeling doomed. haven't heard from H all day since he woke me and kissed me goodbye. i know he i still angry at our confrontation over his behaviour, and that it is expected, but it sucks to cope w/it emotionally. plus, it really sucks that he's not following the 10 steps to achieve affection :O(

i did listen to the radio show on "jealous/insecure spouses" and had him listen also so we could discuss the topic. thanks ML.

i have snuck home today between appts because i needed your support; thanks for replying in my absence - i feel stronger now. i now have to run to my mammogram. what a banner day!

oh - thanks for the link to the polygraph Qs - great advice there! i don't think i'm going to be able to get one here. and i'm a little weary of hearing "that's such an american thing. we don't do that here."

enough whinging. i'm off to be squashed!

looking forward to more plan a tonight.

cheers, guys!

omg, i am sick to my stomach. how have you all managed to do this? i am not sure i can, not if my "prize" is a lying, cheataing [censored].

intercepted 2 texts today (have got to figure out how to put spyware on his cheap non android or iphone phone) where he 1) told one model that he had to remove her off fb, wouldn't be texting her either, but that i'm a crazy [censored] he needs to get rid of "i'm ready to leave." another text to a male friend "she goes before my computer." he's been totally cold all day. after what we've been through in the last 5 years, and all the backbreaking work i've done...i may need to go plan b sooner than i expected, because the bank is running dry.

oh, he also knows i put spyware on the compuer! how, i don't know - he never knows how to do anything; i have to do everything for him. he may have taken it somewhere or had his nasty wife-cheating on friend around; it's only been 24 hours since i installed it, and i hid it pretty well for a noob like him. darn it all. now i can't trust what i find there - is he only doing what he WANTS me to see? is he going to a internet cafe? i'm kinda at the screw this point and i know it's too late for anyone to respond. i'm going to go plan a us some dinner for when he gets home and do my best not to vomit on him.

Letty,

So sorry you had to read that horrible stuff your WH wrote! I know how horrific that is. The thing is, you are the bad guy right now because you are holding him accountable. He is in wayward mode and obviously not committed to recovery. Yet, he doesn't seem to want to not be married either, now does he? At least you know where his head is at.

Did you just start plan A or is this something you've been trying to do since you started posting on here the past few weeks? I would think you want the shortest plan A possible (3 weeks) and go into Plan B. Start planning that now!

What about exposure? I know you said previously you don't have a lot of support. Is there anyone you can expose your H's cheating ways to that would influence him for the better? Can you find out if this OW that he's chatting with has a boyfriend or is married?

I wouldn't even worry about the polygraph at this point - your H isn't even committed to recovery.

(((((((((BIG hugs!))))))))))))))))))