I'm new to this forum. I've recently read lots of the articles, Q&As, and a few threads, and started reading HNHN for parents and Love Busters.

Together 8 yrs, living together 6, two children.

My partner keeps trying to initiate sex by doing things I don't like. I'm not averse to sex (when we occasionally we get some of the other intimacy too - not getting enough UA), but I've become averse to his attempts to initiate sex. I think SF is higher up his priorities than mine, but I'd like more too if we could get it working. When I say I want to be close, that I'm not rejecting sex, but I want him to stop the specific behaviour, he says he doesn't believe me (I think I've been honest), that I'm inconsistent (I think I've been consistently saying the same thing, he just interprets by body language according to his own hunches), or that I'm rejecting him (even if I'm holding him as close as I can), that we'd never have sex if he didn't initiate (we'd get more if he stopped that method - or just slowed down and let me initiate more). It's been going on a long time, and its getting so we are often not sleeping together, because I don't sleep well if I'm defending myself, and he doesn't relax if he has to be careful. I'm very lonely not sleeping together, and find this painful and don't sleep well alone either. It's messing badly with our relationship and my sleep, health, happiness, and ability to function well. Lots of other issues, but I haven't seen this one written about, and can't figure out what the MB program would suggest. I've been on the brink of separation several times, he says if we do he's not coming back. I want to make this work, but getting to the end of my tether.

Do you think I should treat this as abuse that requires separation, even though it would almost certainly be an end that I don't want? (There's been no physical violence.) Or treat it as an extremely annoying habit - and then what, since he doesn't seem to get that it is important enough to have to stop? What can I do to get UA and SF working, when the closer and happier we are, the more likely I am to get what feels like repeated intimate abuse that is very hurtful and discouraging? I could go on about other aspects, but this is the bit I haven't seen anything written about.

Thanks in advance for your advice, if you have any.

What do you mean about abuse? Are you implying that his initiations are assault? You didn't really state what he does so I'm not sure what you mean by this. "Defending yourself", is that an implication of assault?

I assume you are not married.

I suggest you start with this discussion on Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2332882

I was also going to suggest B,R, and F's.
I also think this kind of question comes up pretty frequently, but it doesn't surprise me that you couldn't find it - there are volumes of posts and threads to sift through.

The radio show just a few weeks ago addressed something similar (although Dr. H would most likely address your Renter's Agreement first). If I remember right, the tone was that men often fail to understand that the SF issue is often preceded by other issues. How much UA time are you getting? How is your $LB balance? Are there any other LB's he is committing to drop your balance below the romantic threshold?


Do you think your kids would benefit from you marrying each other?

optimism

I'd be happy to move this to the Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders thread, if I could find the instructions on how(I know I've seen them somewhere). Thanks.

torelax,

Your thread is on the right forum and they aren't suggesting you move it. They are asking you if you are familiar with Dr Harleys book "Buyers Renters & Freeloaders". Or if you have read any of the threads on the forums discussing that book.

Click on the link in alis post above yours to see one such thread.

In response to questions :

Not married, but committed when we chose to have children. He's opposed to marriage after failed first one, but sees the decision to have children together as just as strong a long term commitment. We didn't live together till that commitent was made. I've never considered it, given that he was adamant and it didn't seem necessary. You won't be surprised if I say there are at least one area that each of us would have difficulty with in POJA.

The attempted initiation that is a problem is him touching me in specific sexual ways that I am finding unpleasant, and I get very stressed when he does it against my will. I won't describe in detail, but its not anything painful, unhealthy, bad in any way other than that I don't want it and I've said so repeatedly. He rightly says that I used to enjoy the same behaviours (back when I trusted he would stop doing sth to me if I asked him to).

Other LBs from him: habitual DJs about anyone who he doesn't agree with including me, or just to tease. If I tell him it hurts, he says he was being friendly, and the problem is I'm oversensitive. Lots of independent behaviour, making it hard to get UA time. There was a period when he was grumpy and rude a lot of the time, and I couldn't count on any friendly UA time with him. I guessed it was a combination of work stress and dissatisfaction with me. I felt badly abandonned. He doesn't take me at my word - he tells me and others that I think and feel the opposite of what I say, then assumes he's right and I'm wrong about lots of things, not just this current issue. Often doesn't answer questions that affect me (not really keeping secrets, just doesn't think he should have to answer ). Makes plans without telling me (let alone POJA). (Lots of minor conflict over how we cooperate about household chores (leading to me withdrawing and doing less DS). He's recently largely stopped waking me up unneccesarily - I appreciate the improvement. He punishes the chn (and me) for crying (we have not managed to POJA this, though we do POJA on many child-raising issues).

LBs from me to him: Angry outbursts (loud) - top of my list to stop/manage, but haven't got them under control yet. I listened to Anger Management 101 radio clip recently.
Probably some IB, but I have much more of a habit of checking whether my tentative plans are ok with him before committing to anything outside work.He doesn't like being blamed for how I'm feeling. I have tried to be specific about the specific behaviour I'm having trouble with, but recently I've been doing more DJ too - will try to stop, this is not my usual habit. Probably SD. If I cry, he sees that as manipulation, which I guess means he experiences it as part of a selfish demand. I don't see it that way - I see it as how I relieve the pain of being hurt. I try to keep it away from him most of the time. My sloppy time management is hard on him. He would like me to keep better order on my stuff. I 'interrogate' him. He doesn't like it when I ask sth twice, and if he doesn't answer, I sometimes get angry.

We have not yet shared LBQ, but he's agreed to.

UA: he seems to think it's unnecessary to have more, that the problem is my poor time management (partly true, partly his IB), that I should be satisfied with 10 minutes conversation over the dishes occasionally, that my need for non-sexual closeness is a nonsense, that in a few years htere will be more time - we just have to tough it out. In the last year he's started making a little more regular time available - this was an important improvement - when I can count on that, it makes a big difference to me, but its not reliable, and it's not enough. I have a health issue that eats time, and I'm working (FS) while he studies and does most of the DS. He has injuries that limit sharing eg exercise as RC, and sleeps alot.

I have a high need for physical affection and conversation. He sometimes meets this briefly, seldom anywhere near enough, but when he does I love him and want more. We occasionally have a few good days, and I get hopeful. The usual things that bust it for me are either DJs (including trying to communicate by mind-reading instead of English), the issue described above, or separation by IBs.

I've now read some but not all of this thread. Will look for more related to my question. And will stop before this gets any longer ...
Thanks

****from JustUss***

torelax,
I have moved your response back to your own thread. The posters were not asking you to post ON the other thread---just to read it.

**********

Hi torelax, welcome to Marriage Builders. I agree with the suggestion to get the book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. The reason is so you will understand why living together is completely different from marriage. There is just no comparison. You can say you are "committed" but one is not committed if they don't buy the house. Dr Harley views living together as a tenuous month to month agreement that is typically fraught with abuse and thoughtlessness.

In the book above, it has a chapter about how to change from a renter to a buyer. And one cannot be a buyer unless they are really married. He doesn't necessarily recommend running out and getting married, but in first addressing and resolving the renters mindset.

Here is an article from the book that addresses this:

Living Together Before Marriage: Compatibility Test or Curse?

torelax, welcome to Marriage Builders. I'm not sure that your issues can be addressed on this site. You're not married - that doesn't give us much to work with to help you build. This is the Marriage Builders website.

You are living with your children's father without the benefits and sanctity of marriage. And I have to tell you that he sounds like a bully. I suspect he's been calling the shots from Day One about your relationship.

You say you've read HNHN, which is waht I would suggest to you. I really have no advice for you, but I wish you the best.

I think it is worth trying to get him on board with MB.
If you say that you want the two of you to have a fantastic relationship and that you want to know how he feels about things and about better meeting his needs, you can give him the (accurate) impression, that there is something in it for him.

The problem there seems to be with the relationship now, is, that the two of you are not spending enough time together and do not seem to be in love any more. If he does things you do not like and has gotten away with them in the past and has had 'succes' with his independent behaviour and some AO's, he now really does not have any reason to stop, it works for him. If he would be in love with you, he would be more sympathetic to your needs. You are probably also contributing to the problems.

However, it is not interesting how you got into this situation. You can analyze it but that does not make it better. You have to behave your way out of this mess.

That's why you will have to be creative and come up with a time where he will sit down and do the Needs and love busters questionaire with you. (If nothing works, I alway love talking while driving.)

Try to make it pleasant and follow up on it and ask for his feedback and give him yours also, preferably without DJ.

The other thing that is vitally important is to make time for your marriage. What are you and he doing on weekends?
Fifteen hours seems like much, but if you have an hour a day in the morning snuggling up in bed on weekends, two hours in the afternoon while your children sleep and two hours in the evening after they have gone to bed, you only have to spend an hour a day on weekdays to have 15 hours. (20 hours would of course be better to start things up faster - that would make 2 hours after bedtime on weekdays).

That is not impossible, is it?

Please let us know how your plans are coming along.

Take care, Happyheart

P.S.

I don't know if sleeping apart is helping the situation.

HH, good for you to take your time to help this couple. Unfortunately, we've seen the 'same couple' here time and time again - not married, but trying to address relationship issues as though they are married. It's not the same.

I know, that 'little peace of paper' makes a HUGE difference.

Another important point is, that he has not proved yet that he is sound marriage material...

Another thing you can do is POJA what is acceptable with regards to SF. If you both don't agree, then you don't do it. Your resentment about being made to do things will be much more than his resentment of not getting to do things. He needs to make SF a pleasant experience for you since he is the one with the higher drive.

Tell him that your end goal is to enjoy SF with him, but right now you are not enjoying it. It doesn't matter what you have allowed/done in the past. Tell him which activities you find acceptable at this point. Anything not on the list is not allowed at this point. You have to be able to trust him.
Talk about how often you want to have SF. Talk about how SF should be intiated. Make sure when he does something you like, you give him positive feedback. Tell him to do the same.
Tell him what will happen if he does something not on the list...do you say "No" or do you walk out. He has to listen.
Talk about how you will revise the list of allowed activities...he can ask for an activity and you can let him know waht you think. You can suggest activities and he can let you know.