When you presented her with the list of conditions to "keep you in the marriage" did you keep them?

Why not just re-present them and tell her the 'trial period' where she gets to figure stuff out has to end some time.

Its not the 'threat of leaving', is it? Its a fact that you won't put up with no recovery or be her 'divorce buddy' holding hands and singin kumbaya.

Been watching the online seminar.

Regarding the 3 states of mind in marriage I sort of realized that I think after the first affair I was in the state of intimacy while she was in withdrawal. This made it easy for me to keep pouring on the love units to get us out of that rut.

This time I have gone in to the state of conflict while she is in withdrawal. This has made it impossible to get out of this rut. It makes me mad that she is in withdrawal again as I feel she has no right to be.

She is reluctantly going along with the program which so far is trying to watch the online seminar. Still having issues getting her to commit to at least 15 hours UA, that we work opposite shifts makes it really hard and the television is getting in the way.

Basically she is not really wanting Affection or Conversation either according to her questionnaire.

She is still in withdrawal in my opinion. She still rewrites history in a negative light. She still has emotional barriers up. She has been complaining of love busters.

I guess all I can do is try to cut down on love busters. It's hard because I am pissed off about this whole situation....how can she be the one that doesn't love me after what she has done to me? I guess it's my taker, it says she should be thanking her stars I haven't left and making me feel appreciated and loved instead of like a piece of dirt. How am I supposed to muster the strength to love some one who treats me like a piece of dirt and craps on our entire history together?

You don't.

Youre talking about withdrawal and conflict but that's an unnecessary detour.

She's either wayward and your Plan Aing her or she's fully repentant and making amends.

Which is it?

If she's wayward, you can't love her. Just can't! You Plan A to destroy the alien who bodysnatched your wife. It isnt love. Its a tactic to free your love.

If she's repentant then she isn't hurting you, or as you put it someone who 'craps on your life'. Its easy to love someone who comes defenseless and honest, to heal you at her own expense. If she is repentant, that is.

Which is she?

Well I don't consider her repentant, it doesn't seem to me that she is sorry she had the fair or concerned about the pain it has caused me. Her concern is simply her own feelings, not mine. She is not hurting me intentionally but rather with her honesty.

Soooo...........

That means what?

And your reaction is what?

You need to know which stage of the Plans you're in.

You can't just hang about and hope.

Having no plan is a plan to fail.

She sounds typically wayward and foggy to me, which requires Plan A.

Lovebusting won't help with that.

That's like getting an overdraft warning from the bank and going on a spending spree.

I guess it means I am in Plan A

I think that sucks. It pretty much means my emotional needs are not going to be met until I can defog her.

I have been trying to avoid LB and meet EN as best I can, I guess I just have to try harder.

I think it will help if you understand that you are in Plan A and stop expecting her to act like a wife in recovery. That expectation is hurtful and dissuades you from doing what needs to be done.

Remember NO EXPECTATIONS. However Plan A is not plan doormat. You can tell her often (cheerfully and calmly) that you want a marriage where your needs are met too and she is on board properly.You are willing to wait a while but eventually that's what you'll need.

You're at war in Plan A. The sulky alien you see stole your real wife and needs to be gunned down with MB ammo.

Then set a deadline on your Plan A. Six months maximum till you Plan B her. The deadline should also keep you calm. Chin up!

As they said in the Blitz, Keep Calm and Carry On!

blaze, I am a mom of twins and empathize with both you and you wife in your situation. It is not easy to care for young twins, and then another new baby (!) and get any sleep, let alone leisure time or time with your spouse.

My H and I worked opposite schedules for 15 years; we have 5 children, and we needed to earn income, and any free time we each had was spent independently of eachother. He wanted time with me then, and I could not be bothered to give it to him, because I was so spent by the children, and my work; so we pursued independent interests for many years.

I know it is hard to want any SF or UA time when small children need constant love and care. You sound as frustrated as my H was 6-7 years ago about wanting SF and UA and having a reluctant spouse.

It is a special challenge to have many young children, especially toddler twins. During that time in our marriage we had SF maybe 6-8 times a year.

Can you get a babysitter, go out with her and romance her?

Some of your previous posts have red flags all over: Your wife telling you she has no needs for affection or conversation - begs the question - she might be getting those needs met somewhere else. It doesn't sound to me as though she has all of her cards on the table. Have you confronted her most recent OM? Do you have access to all her phone and computer activity?I would put a digital voice recorder in her car. Do NOT tell her you are doing this! Just to be sure you are not fighting an active affair in your Plan A. You need to know what you're dealing with. Her behavior and reluctance sound foggy.

I think it is also very important that you hire a reliable babysitter a least once a week to take your wife out and court her and date her ( and NOT talk MB, affairs, kids, or work) so you can show her how much you love her as a woman and not just as a mom to take care of house and kids (not that you don't pull your weight too!)

BTW I have also (when the twins were small) made the mistake of implying to my H that more housework would mean more SF.(jokingly but not well-received) I think my H was offended by that, especially in the long-term when someone else came along and wanted him just for him and nothing in return. In his mind it cheapened his preception of my wanting SF with him as something intimate and sacred and free of worldly demands, thus making a subsequent alternative paramour more attractive than reality would warrant. There will always be willing AP in the world who will prey on a doubtful spouse in times of too much domestic and parental responsibility. Take care of your wife and cherish her.

Indiegirl, you are an awesome coach here! Your perspective on my thread last fall was a great boost to me in helping me do what I needed to.

I agree, IndieGirl is doing a great job of coaching, it really leaves little to be added.

I wish these spouses could understand with OP comes along, it's comparing apples to oranges, after all, they come without the kids, financial issues, affair baggage, etc. and can afford to be all sweet and wonderful, while in the marriage there's all this other stuff to deal with! Kind of unfair footing! But when they begin affair and move in together and have the everyday problems like financial problems, work, cleaning house, visitation, etc. to deal with, that's when the affair crumbles because what once looked rosy can't hold muster when it comes to the demands of real life.

I see the red flags too, it's been almost a year of no contact to the best of my snooping abilities and there are still emotional barriers up. I have listened in while she is alone in the car with her cell phone which I have spyware on and haven't been able to find anything. I also have been keeping tabs on her GPS location with the spyware and she hasn't been lying or seeing him. I have a keylogger on our home computer and have found nothing there either.

I am pretty sure she doesn't have a secret second cell phone or I would have caught it by now. She could be calling him from a work phone or emailing him from a work computer....I can't think of a way I could catch her if she was though. I did become suspicious a couple of months ago....I emailed the OM just to see what would happen. I got no reply from him but my wife did coincidentally check my sent messages and confronted me about the email. She has not really been snooping on me normally as far as I can tell, but she just happened to catch this? I suspect he told her I emailed him with a secret email she has at work but I have no way to prove it.

Of course it could just be that I have been lovebusting more than I realize, that my taker has been in control and demanding she meet my needs as part of our recovery. I am trying to buckle down even harder and avoid lovebusters and hoping that I will start to see those barriers come down. I am still just very frustrated that it has been so long and she still doesn't want affection and can't stand the thought of sex.

We are almost to the point of our first assignment...scheduling 15 hours for UA, I hope that goes well.

Did you do a polygraph? That sounds very coincidental that she caught that email out. If she is still in contact with him through work means, a simple polygraph would discover that.

Is there a way she can make her work systems transparent to you or change jobs? I imagine she would be unwilling while still foggy, but is it possible?

What about spyware on her phone? I think there is a very nifty device I read about a while back that let you listen to whats happeneing herever the phone is. Like a portable VAR. So youd be able to listen in on her workday. Not sure if anyone knows about that on Operation Investigate.

As for the lovebusting thing. Yes it is maddening, and very frustrating how cold she is being. But if there is still some wayward booze in her hand, or even just triggers of old booze, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for her to respond to you. Just physically impossible.

Do you think she may have installed some spyware of her own?

I have not done a polygraph. How much does that usually cost?

I don't think there is a way she could make her work systems transparent to me. It seems any job would have a phone or computer she would be able to use. No way she would change jobs, she won't even consider changing shifts.

I have used spyware to turn her phone in to a VAR. I caught a bunch while the affair was ongoing, but nothing since. I have listened while she is at work and while she is driving in the car. She has come up clean.

If it wasn't for the symptoms I would be convinced there was no contact, the email is the only thing that raised my suspicions. I tend to think the contrast effect could also be in play....she has gone from a hot passionate care free affair back to the old dog with overbearing domestic duties. She is just not in to me as much as she was in to him no matter what needs I meet. She has told me it was the best sex she has ever had and that the affair was more about the OM than about our marriage. She has also said she still cares for him and that she misses the sex (which also means she misses him I guess).

She may be getting triggered in other ways, such as looking up his FB page etc while at work. Does she have FB? That would keep the feelings alive. She may also have kept gifts, triggers, mementoes etc.

You have nothing to lose by asking her to take a polygraph. You also have nothing to lose by asking her if she has kept any gifts, letters or things that remind her of him. Or whether she checks up on him. Then insist all triggers go. (You can make demands when it comes to NC and triggers - just tell her calmly you expect her to do it freely of her own will because you will not stay in an unromantic marriage)

I have seen some mention on here of people who gave their work computer accounts to their spouses. Ones where you get a password to log in and work from home, except the BH gets the password too so he can check on it whenever he likes. (I can't remember which threads though! Anyone help me out?) Ive also seen some mention where the WS tells their boss about the A and asks for sites to blocked or for a keylogger to be installed where the work is not confidential.

He is blocked from her Facebook and I have access to her Facebook account.

I doubt she has any gifts or letters or things.

I may consider a polygraph but right now am leaning against it.

You can still see people on FB even when they've blocked you. She just needs another account or to google him to see his public view page. Plus he can unblock her at any time.

She is listing domestic support as her #1 emotional need. Is she really going to fall in love with the man who does the most chores? I find it hard to believe.

I figured meeting the needs her lover met was what was needed. Instead it's meet the needs I have been meeting only better? The needs her lover met are at the bottom of the list it seems, she doesn't want that from me.

It makes me think the affair was more just a fantasy of being single and child free then it was about me not meeting her needs like affection, conversation, or SF (oh yeah and the other need was for an attractive spouse, apparently she isn't happy with the size of my belly even though she is over weight herself).

Her unhappiness just seems to be about the stress of her life...6 kids and a 36 hour graveyard work week. She associates that with me. I think she is just unhappy in general, it's not necessarily that she's unhappy with me. I don't see how we can improve her situation. Since we can't fix that it seems we can't fix our marriage to me. She is reluctant to even try. It's incredibly frustrating. Why can't she just honor her promise to love me? Instead she has stopped loving me which makes me miserable and it's because of circumstances that she chooses and that are beyond my control.

Well, I'd be pretty impressed by a domestic god, but it is wise to be sceptical and not take the word of a wayward. I'd respond to her request with an 'of course dear!' And do a bit more (shows you've listened and therefore meets the affection need) but make sure you meet more intimate needs too.

The best guide to her needs is probably the things that got a noticeable reaction in the past.

Reluctance to try is a favourite wayward technique. Its usually just a bluff

They paint a picture where they claim it impossible they can ever be happy with you...and no they don't have any ideas as to how you could help them be happier. They ask you to accept a life of misery.

Be a broken record. Say you will do whatever you can to make her happy, for a set amount of time, but you will not stay in an unromantic relationship.

Say constantly: Well what can I DO to help make you happier?

If she says, 'nothing' say, well the only suggestion I have is xxx so I will do that if you have no ideas. (And do it) Then add: I won't be around forever if you remain unhappy and unhelpful with me, I find it very hurtful'.