Hi....I have been here before.

5 years ago my wife had an affair....she had wanted to leave me.

I now sort of realize that when it all came out the love rejected her, and then we were able to survive with me using marriage builders as a resource.

We had 2 kids at that time....as things improved we decided to have another. Then one more right after that became twins. Then we failed at NFP and had a 6th...she is mostly ok but has a bunch of health issues and is delayed.

Whatever the case our youngest is not even a year old and I have discovered she had an affair with an old boyfriend she found on facebook. She doesn't want to leave this time...apparently the guy is a criminal on parole who doesn't even have a car...they are both 30 years old. He has nothing really to offer and she doesn't want the shame of the thing becoming public.

Trying to make the story short...I got suspicious and found out about it. It had been physical for about 2 weeks when I found out and the relationship had been about 6 weeks of communication. I have continued to be better at investigating then her hiding it....she hasnt been able to see him but she is continually trying to contact him behind my back....she strokes his ego...it's all very bad. I am confuse...she just had marriage tattoos "till death do us part" immediately before the affair went physical. I realize she has been under tons of stress with the 6 kids and out youngest ones special needs, oh yeah in a 2 bedroom condo with the 2 working parents and her having a schedule from hell...

I am sort of at a loss of what to do. I think it's about time for plan B, I think that would work well (they wouldnt last very long) but I don't know if I should take her back. I have reached out to a lawyer but won't consult till wednesday....it might be hard to play along and not confront her till then. I want to keep the kids insulated from this as much as possible.

She has a secret prepaid phone she uses that I can't find to call him anytime she is alone. We have been trying the extraordinary precautions to avoid the lover, but with out her honesty it still is'nt working.

Blaze, Sorry you have found yourself back here. I just wanted to say that as this is way over my level of advice. The vets will be along soon.
I will say however that you have to plan A before you can ever hope for Plan B to work. Even if its a short Plan A.

Hi blase, if you are familiar with MB then you know the routine. Expose the affair wide and far. Call her parents, close family, friends, everyone. Is this bum married? If so, expose to his spouse. Expose to his friends on facebook. DEMAND that she end her affair today and turn over the affair phone. Raise as much hell as possible in this affair.

Call his parole officer, even if he can't do anything.

Is this really the best thing?

I am familiar with MB and have survived an affair once before, but she is definitely ashamed of this one. She even didn't like it how I told my psychiatrist and asked to have some privacy with my doctor.

Anyway today I confronted her about the cell phone....she reveals nothing unless I make her. I had recorded conversations and asked for the cel...she did not produce it until she was convinced I was going to look through the car until I found it...about 30 minutes of searching. It confirmed the recorded conversation with the lover were the only ones she had since I confronted her on the affair.

I was trying to go to Plan B, but she basically refuses to leave and I have been told that my leaving would be bad and hurt my position with the kids if it came to the courts. I have a legal consult on Friday and I am unsure if the recorded conversations are useful or even if I could get in trouble for them...I don't know the laws in California on this matter.

Basically she is just confused I think...I told her that she should leave and we can make up a cover story and I will stop spying on her. She just left with the secret phone and to clear her head and I have no idea where or what she is going to do....I am sure she will try to contact him. I don't know if I should keep trying to spy on her even though I said I wouldn't. She is addicted to the affair...our marriage was not awful when this happened. It was more the stress of all the kids and the small house. He is an escape from that.

She did say to him on the recorded conversation that there is only one place she wants to be and that it was with him. At the same time she can't make the choice to leave me and her kids and deal with the shame.

More people know about it now....most of my family I think does although I only told my mom and brother in law. One friend of hers does....the one who clued me in on the previous affair actually. My doctor. I told her mom too, but her mom is fixated on that I had/have mental health issues and wonders how much of it is that I am paranoid or whatever.

So far I told her I don't know how we can stick with plan A after she continues to be dishonestly try to contact him....about 4 times in 2 weeks. I was feeling like the only way to go to Plan B would be to legally divorce her. I am Catholic however but that wouldn't stop me (but it would likely stop me from ever remarrying without an annullment).

Really? Is that the MB advice....I had felt like doing this, but with 6 kids I felt it was a bad idea.

Yes it is marriage builders advice. The only chance for the survival of your marriage is for the affair to end, and end soon. Exposing the affair will destroy it as it can only flourish in secrecy. Make the sneaky affair based on lies not a safe place anymore. EXPOSE

Why does it matter how many kids you have when it comes to ending your W's affair? We have 4 kids and it never crossed my mind that I shouldn't expose because we have 4 of them...in fact it helped CONVINCE me that I needed to expose in order to attempt to save their family.

Expose today. There's no reason to wait. My H's affair ended the very day I exposed.

She had an affair 5 yrs ago that you never exposed...and here she is again, having another affair...doesn't that answer your question? Part of what you did wrong the first time around is you protected her from the consequences of her A, didn't expose and she remained wayward...

The fact that she desperately wants it kept secret should be another big clue that exposure will work for you...

P.S. Never shield a WS from the consequences of their affair.

Exposure and the subsequent, well-earned humiliation is a consequence of the A. Do not shield her from that. It will help de-fog her.

You told her about Plan A? What else have you said about Marriage Builders? I would keep this to yourself right now. Don't tell her you are 'Plan A'ing' her, just do it.

You don't have a clear view of the marriagebuilder plans. It seems from those of us who do that you have a vague idea of them.
You don't share them with the wayward. They are your tools until a recovery time when the wayward is completley ready to take their place as a partner in rebuilding the relationship.
You don't need her permission to expose. You don't tell her you will. You just do it.
She won't leave the marriage because you exposed her misdeeds and embarassed or shamed her. She might leave cause she can't bear having to stop misbehaving or she might not be up to being a truly loyal, dedicated spouse. Her actions might end the marriage not yours in fighting her betrayel.
You need to study the plan a lot more and regroup what you will do to deal with it. You need to stop trying to make her behave and instead you need to lead the family as the head of household.
In CA you can phone several attorneys to get an idea of how to get her to leave the home. They will tell you over the phone for free. They want your potential business if there is a legal separation or divorce. They will give you direction in your state.

Wow,you guys have opened my eyes a bit....is there a link explaining why exposing is proper?

Would it be appropriate to post to her facebook?

Everyone knows about the last affair.

We used marriage builders in recovery on that one, I was trying to use it again before I realized how bad it was. We were trying to follow the extraordinary precautions to avoid the lover, she was on board with giving him and fixing this. She never wanted to leave. blah blah blah.

I have given up on monitoring her for now...thats why I say I am basically in plan B. She is out free to do whatever right now....gathering her thoughts. I'll let you guys know what she says when she gets back.

She realizes she has a problem, she didn't mean for this to happen.

I am telling her I want to help her.

She says that it doesnt help when we try.

I say we need counselling, that she needs a counsellor...we need a professional. she resists.....

I think she might just leave me on her own.

How did you use MB to recover the first one? The initial actions to kill it? What about the time after it was dead and the new one started? Did you two spend 15 hours of quality time together, just you two meeting each others' most important emotional needs? Did you create a life that was built on all the other important factors in a healthy marriage?
You can not use MB to kill an affair and then let the marriage go to pot again.

You are not in plan B if you are in contact with her and communicating with her (as in letting us know what she says when she gets back). You will need to do plan A and then go dark. Dark to her. Dark of her. On without her as though she is gone for good unless she decides you are her most important mate and she and you create a new marriage with each other.

Study up on plan A. Figure out what it IS. Once you are in plan A you can study up on what plan B is.Then you can follow a plan. Your posts sounds so all over the place with little understanding of the plans.

Do you have the books Surviving An Affair, Love Busters and His Needs/Her Needs?

Welcome back blaze. You asked about exposure, here ya go:


From chapter 13 HNHN's by Dr. Harley

"Step 1: End the Affair

The first step on the path to surviving an affair is for it to end. An affair ends when the straying spouse ceases all contact with his or her lover and never sees or talks to that person again. Time and again I've watched what happens when a drastic and decisive break with a lover is not made. They try to remain "friends" and maintain casual social contact. But inevitably they find their way back to their lover's arms. It seems that when it comes to this one person, they exhibit incredibly flawed judgment and almost irresistible force draws them back.

But even if there were to be no risk of rekindling an affair, if any contact continues, the affair still remains alive in the mind of the betrayed spouse. Since an affair is the most hurtful and selfish act that one spouse can inflict on the other, any contact restores the memory and perpetuates the pain. Wives have told me that their husband's affair was worse than being raped. Men have said their wife s affair was worse than losing a child. It's the ultimate betrayal.

For some, the affair ends the right way. The unfaithful spouse sends a letter to the lover that communicates how much suffering the affair caused the betrayed spouse and how thoughtless it was, a desire to rebuild the marriage, and that all contact would be terminated forever. The betrayed spouse reads the letter and approves of it before it's sent. After the letter is sent, extraordinary precautions that I'll explain in the next step are taken to avoid future contact with the lover.

But most affairs end the wrong way -- they die a natural death. Instead of taking control of the situation, and making a decision to end it, most unfaithful spouses continue in the relationship as long as possible. Affairs, however, don't usually last very long. I estimate that 95% of them don't last two years. Those few who eventually marry are extremely fragile -- much more likely to divorce than the average couple. So if an affair doesn't end the right way, it will almost always end, even if it's the wrong way.

If your unfaithful spouse is unwilling to end an affair the right way, I know of a way to help speed up its demise: Expose it. Your own family should know: Your parents, your siblings, and even your children. The family of your spouse s lover should also know, especially the lover's spouse. The pastor of your church should be informed as well. Exposure of an affair is like opening a moldy closet to the light of day. Affairs do well when they're conducted in secret, but when they're in full view for all to see, they appear as they are -- incredibly foolish and thoughtless.

Even if exposure were to be ineffective in ending an affair, I'd recommend it anyway. The betrayed spouse needs as much support as possible, and exposure helps friends and relatives understand what's going on. Keeping an affair secret is no real help to anyone. But I've been amazed at how well it dismantles the illusion that affairs rest upon. Instead of assuming that the relationship is made in heaven, an unfaithful spouse quickly senses that it's a one-way ticket to hell on earth.

The first reaction of an unfaithful spouse to exposure is to try to turn the tables on the betrayed spouse. "I will never be able to forgive you for hurting me this way. Don't you ever think about how I'd be affected by this?" Of course, it's really the affair that hurts. The exposure simply identifies the source of the pain. The unfaithful spouse should be the one begging for forgiveness.

In spite of the suffering that an affair inflicts on a betrayed spouse, during this period of exposure he or she should try to make as many Love Bank deposits and as few withdrawals as possible. If you argue about the affair, you'll damage recovery. Insist on the unfaithful spouse s complete separation from the lover (no contact for life), but don't fight about it. I call this strategy to end the affair Plan A.

If exposure itself doesn't end the affair immediately, my advice regarding what to do next is usually different for husbands and wives. I encourage husbands to try to stick to avoiding arguments and meeting their unfaithful wives' basic needs (Plan A) as long as possible (six months to a year). But I usually encourage wives to separate after about three weeks if their husband is still in contact with his lover. My experience has taught me that the health of most women deteriorates quickly and significantly while living with an unfaithful husband. Men, on the other hand, tend to be able to weather the storm longer with fewer emotional or physical effects. I call the strategy of complete separation Plan B.

In addition to avoiding health problems, a separation also helps a betrayed spouse hang on to what remains in their spouse's Love Bank account. Daily interaction with an unfaithful spouse causes such large withdrawals, that a separation with no contact between spouses can actually help the marriage by temporarily freezing the betrayed spouse's Love Bank. When the affair is over, the betrayed spouse is less likely to divorce when the unfaithful spouse wants to give the marriage a chance to recover.

Yet another advantage to separation is that some of the basic needs met by the betrayed spouse suddenly disappear. This is especially true when a couple has children. An unfaithful spouse often overlooks the betrayed spouse's contribution to the family. While the lover may meet two basic needs that were unmet by the betrayed spouse, the betrayed spouse may have been meeting the other three that cannot be easily met by the lover. During a separation, the unfaithful spouse can become acutely aware of what he or she is missing."

Dr Harley has spoken about it plenty on his radio show. You can search the archives here for "exposure":
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/radio_programs.cfm

It's a no-brainer. Expose this and kill it, the same day. It happened for me and our marriage. DO IT.

It is the best thing for everyone. Affairs thrive on secrecy so this is the best thing. And of course she won't like it. Just as a crack head doesn't like it when you bring onlookers into the crack house, she won't like others looking at her. But that is therapeutic and is the best weapon you have against the affair.

We have had many affairs end when they were exposed. Here is what Harley says about exposure:

here




I agree you shouldn't leave. What you should do is PLAN A, which means you expose the hell out of the affair and start shaking up the OM. You want to save your marriage? Then start raising hell and fighting for it!

Having 6 kids should make it MORE imperative that you expose the affair. I would start with the kids. And then branch out and expose the affair wide and far.

Which one? Where do we start? There are so many. In this one, Dr Harley tells this man he is an "enabler" for helping hide his wife's affair. The WW's affair evolved and she was divorcing this BH because he basically picked his butt for a year and did nothing to save his marriage: radio clip here


NO. Go to the OM's facebook page, copy and paste his friends and family into a word doc. Send them a letter telling them about the affair and ask them to use their influence to persuade loserboy to end his affair. This will RUIN your wife's future with the OM.

Before you do that, copy and paste your wife's friends and family into a WORD doc and expose to them afterwards. Personally call her parents and close friends and sibs. Tell them about the affair and ask them to use their influence to persuade her to end the affair.

When you are done with that, I would pay the OM a visit and let him know hell is coming his way unless he leaves your wife alone. Paint a very ugly picture where he is dragged into court to give testimony about his affair under oath. Most OM are pansies, so he will likely run at the first sign of trouble.


Plan B is a separation. You are not in Plan B, you are in Plan "C" which stands for compromise and is the most likely to lead to divorce. When you say she is "free to gather her thoughts" what the hell does that mean?

Does that mean she runs around like an alley cat in heat from the comfort and safety of her family home? What "thought" does she gather doing that?

Facebook sample letter:


Dear friend of Skankyhola,

It is with great regret that I send this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. We have been married for 5 years and have 3 heartbroken children. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.

Thank you, BW

Well I put it on facebook...told the kids. She is really mad

I would finish up your exposures NOW so it has a tsunami effect on her. Start calling her family members and ask them to intervene with her. What about her parents, family, friends, etc? Very few people will read it on facebook and she can just delete it if she hasn't already. What we intended when we recommended a facebook exposure was sending private messages to the OM's and your WW's friends and family. Posting it on her wall will reach a very minimal audience.

What did you post?

That is great! But it will be important to expose it to everyone and not stop now. Doing just a little exposure will be enough to piss her off and not enough to inflict a serious blow to the affair.

What are OMs and WWs?

WW = wayward wife

OM = other man

It IS important to do a complete and full nuclear exposure right now.

Imagine this if you will. Exposing an affair to everybody important to your WW and OM is like when people go to the zoo and stand in the primate area, and watch thru the open glass walls what the heck the gorillas are doing in there. It's all open for everybody to see! Although what the noble animal, the gorilla, is doing is moral.

The affair thrives on the great thrill achieved when they have their clandestine meetings. Fantasies are spun to each other, and history is re-written by the cheating spouse to justify what they're doing.

Exposing the affair far and wide to everybody around them (INCLUDING BOSSES and MANAGEMENT if it is a work affair) is important too.

You have to have a bit of shock and awe and you need to end all the exposure tonight. Have it done. Make it the goal that both of them have heat on them, and are spending energies stomping out fires left and right.

Seriously, this om is not wanting to raise four kids is he? No job? Um, your WW needs to be told in not such sweet terms that she is most likely being USED UP FOR SEX by the om. That she's nothing but a secret side piece. Men like that do not marry women, and how could he support her or kids? Easy, he isn't even wanting that. His only hope would be that she got everything in a divorce, so that his lousy, deadbeat head would finally have a place to sleep in since he's on parole, if she divorces you.

I would also find out what the om was jailed for, and then place a restraining order on him on behalf of yourself and the kids, so that this CRIMINAL would not be able to be around your kids. If your ww wants to go cheat with him, and leave with him, she leaves the kids and leaves the family home and door slams behind her.

You have to take a firm stand with her now! It has already happened once, and nothing changed the dynamics of your relationship after, except you made things easy for her, possibly showing her you'd be ok if she did it again, because there weren't HARD and DIFFICULT consequences for her to face as a result of her actions.

She also needs to be told blatantly and to the point, that HER CHEATING is what is wrong, and that you deserve to know the truth in your marriage, and if you had to snoop to get it, then it is all good. After all, SHE IS DOING WRONG, not you. Do not let her spin and blame onto you ok? That's one of the oldest plays in the cheating playbook.

She doesn't want to leave for him....she just can't break contact with him. We were both on Leave from work and she was trying to abide by my rules (no contact), but she was trying to be sneaky and kept getting caught.

I had her locked down and she didnt leave today till I told her to go and blow off steam. Maybe that was a bad idea because she went to him. Still hasnt come back.

Many people don't agree with the telling of the kids, but I did anyway.

I see her GPS says she is still over there and she is just mad at me now.

I told her I am not trying to hurt her, I am just trying to end the affair.

My mom says this is just shaming her and is not a Christian thing to do.....

Exposure is the Christian thing to do. There is nothing "Christian" about enabling evil. Your wife should feel ashamed for committing adultery. If you were exposing that she won a Pulitzer Prize would she feel ashamed? Of course not. She is ashamed because of her actions, as she should be. That is not your fault that she is ashamed, but a direct result of her shameful behavior.

Show your mother this: Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, expose them. Ephesians 5:11

I would let things calm down a bit tonight and then tomorrow finish your exposures, most especially to the OM's family and friends. When you get finished I would pay this scumbum a visit and let him know you will fight for your marriage.

You are doing great, blaze! Just don't let up. You must keep up the pressure until the OM is driven away. Your wife will appreciate and love you for standing up for your marriage and fighting for her.

Oh dear.

God hates affairs and hates that they destroy marriages and families so why is your busting this affair up NOT a Christian thing to do? Riddle me that.

Of course she doesn't want to leave for him, she has it GOOD. She's got one guy busting his butt for her at home (you), providing for her and all the children financially with food and a nice roof over your heads and spending money.

But she gets her rocks off with her sleazy om, and she sees him when she gets an urge. Definitely NOT the Christian thing, she's doing with him. Her lying is also NOT a Christian thing to do.

You basically told her earlier to GO TO THE OM. I am wondering ???

Where is the concept of accountability or cause and effect? A cheating spouse does NOT GET REWARDED for their cheating, yet that is what you're doing by letting her continue this.

Tell your mom that YOUR WIFE IS SHAMING HERSELF and embarassing herself by behaving as a cheap tramp. There's nothing wrong about telling the truth as it is. She is having an affair with a criminal, and exposing YOU to goodness knows what kind of std that convict might carry, and certainly cannot be a sane or good mother doing such risky behaviors.

The Christian thing to do is to help her since she can't help her self, no make that WON'T help herself and stop. She needs to have a reason why to end this affair. And it shouldn't be because she gets more toys from you than from the boyfriend.

It should be because she realizes she could possibly lose her husband, her children, her home, her stability, and everything, if she chooses to continue down this path of adultery and emotional abuse (she's emotionally abusing you, dude).

Plan A calls for luring your wife back and making her feel those missing emotional needs, but there is also A STICK of plan A, and that is EXPOSURE. And consequences of her actions.

Whenever your ww says she's mad at you for exposing, tell her that you know she should rather be mad at herself for her actions because she's the one conducting a destructive affair, and that you're just trying to save your marriage. Then offer her a piece of chocolate cake.

"Blaze I am so angry at you! Why the heck did you email all my friends and my boyfriends' family to tell them about all of this? Why did you email my parents? I am not coming home. I am going to leave and you won't see me for days!"

"Well sweetie, it's ok to be mad, but maybe be mad at YOURSELF instead, because you are having an adulterous affair with a criminal, and that could destroy our family. I love you, won't allow you to leave and to see the other man, and am fighting for our marriage. If you leave the door will be locked. So maybe it's best you not leave and sit down and have some chcolate cake with me!"

She needs to hear it over and over and over that 1)she brought it on herself and 2)you're not going to tolerate that kind of disrespect and blatant cheating anymore and 3)that you are standing up for your marriage. Be a broken record.

But if she leaves again like that, what is the consequence to her blatantly disrespecting you and the marriage like that? Or does she waltz back into the home whenever she feels like it?

Most people don't understand the psychological damage that comes from lying to children. Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders and here is what he says:


here



here

here

I agree 100% in telling the children. The Bible says "lies begat lies" and it is true.

Covering something up as big as adultery does no good to anybody. Kids also feel and sense something is wrong and amiss with life at home, that is why the truth is good. If not the children wonder why they feel nervous, or why they feel the palpable instability inside a home wrecked by infidelity. I also support Dr. Harley's stance on telling them 100 percent!

My ds knows of his fathers' affairs, and how his father ended up getting a divorce from me (I filed). He knew from day one, that the ow was the interloper, that she and his daddy broke up our family by choice. It is cause and effect. Learning right vs. wrong.

And I know my young man will grow into becoming a GREAT MAN because of his strong sense of values instilled into him.

My son at his age, isn't easily swayed by the lies of his wayward dad. Not anymore. He got a letter a few months ago from his dad, blaming of course everybody else, and his former business partner, to causing stress in his life, thus causing his marriage to the other woman to now end.

My son didn't buy it. He told me after reading his dads' letter, that "Wow. I had hoped dad would have learned his lesson by now that you should be good to your husband or wife. Lying is wrong and so is cheating."

Such true and innocent words from the lips of my son. Not prompted. Just spoken honestly, off the cuff, spur of the moment after reading a five page letter sent from his dad, whom he refuses to see for over a year.

Her dad talked to her after she called and he basically wont talk to him about it.

Her sister said she will talk to her also

I did all the facebook people I could or thought would be helpful and the rest were blocked by privacy settings. I deleted the wall posts to try to be more discreet.

She did go home and didn't stay the night. It's not a work affair but she has a supervisor I am unsure if I should contact or not. I will contact another work friend when I get the chance tomorrow.

I don't really know if this is going to help or work.

AND IF I didnt explain she knows the marriage builders materials because we shared it together when rebuildeing after the last affair.

We let slip our marriage building as we had 4 kids during the past 4 years, twins and special needs kid. She is under a ton of stress too. THe affair was more about her and her issues and the stress then about our marriage. I keep telling her once he is out of the picture only then can things start getting better. I am hammering home that....NO CONTACT!

How in the world has she found time for an A with 4 kids in 4 years, twins and a special needs kid?! Who watches the kids and when does she have a moment to even contemplate her naval?

Well with calls and texts for the first 3 weeks, and then 2 weeks of getting of her work shift at the hospital early and then going over there till she would normally come home at 6am

So I am in plan A still then?

WHen do I go to plan B? Do I need legal advice first

Plan A and raise as much hell as possible in the affair. About the facebook wall messsage, the issue wasn't being discreet, but that it doesn't work. Not enough people will see it. Sending private messages ensures people see your message. Now is not the time to be discreet.

She can say that, but she would be wrong. It is wrong to hide sin. Many Christian churches have rules in place that cause their members to stand before their congregation to publicly confess sin.

This is good for two reasons: she knows she doesn't have enough emotionally invested in him to leave everything she has now, and she's indicated to you that she is addicted to him. This A should be easily killed in that case. You need to hit all of your exposure targets asap so that the A is completely exposed and she's unable to spin it into a "platonic friendship" that you're "getting all crazy about."

Well she actually hasn't indicated she is addicted to him....I have indicated it to her. I don't know if she realizes it.

I don't think she realizes how much the affair damages our contact when I try to work on the marriage.

I really think once the affair is killed is how she will react to me will be completely different and provided the opportunity for recovery. There is hope to kill it.

I guess I am still in Plan A.

What I am kind of wondering is how my level of snooping should be in plan A....with us both being off work...I don't know I felt it wasn't helping. Maybe that was because she was trying to get away with contact still.

SHould I keep the reins on her as tight as possible?


Maybe I was just overly suspicious...I mistook a few things in my paranoia. I have mental health history and my paranoia, anxiety, etc. led me to start gettting that managed with meds once again. I guess keep the reins on but be more sensitive to being overbearing or jumping to wrong conclusions....just be smarter about it I guess.

Snoop your butt off so you can continually raise as much hell as possible in the affair. Snoop to find out about any meetings then show up at the meeting. Keep the pressure on.


Your suspicions were well founded. Nothing irrational about them.

SHe wants relaxed snooping restrictions, she changed some passwords...

How do I handle that?

Ok.

Aside from her wanting any relaxed snooping I have a very valid question.

What EXACTLY have been your mental health issues? I am asking this b/c we need to know what could have been huge love busters on your end. Have your issues with any mental issues affected YOUR MARRIAGE?

I can understand as a woman and a mom how your ww could be stressed to the max with six children, and one with special needs, but what else is going on that is not being revealed here? I feel we're missing part of the story. Important part.

I had basically a mental breakdown one time after the other affair. THey have been a concern, but managed and have not been a huge love buster over time. I have been healthy and off all meds for 90% of the marriage.

How do you handle that? You snoop MORE. Her request should indicate to you that she is hiding something. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. Tell her you have a right to know everything she does and her request for SECRECY only makes you more convinced that you need to STEP UP your snooping because she is cruel and dangerous. Tell her you intend to do that.

DEMAND that she end her affair and hand over all of her passwords to prove her fidelity.

Just wanted to know. Sorry that happened to you, and yes it is understandable the pain and agony of an affair. Glad all is well w/you considering the situation now.

Melody is right. When somebody is living a morally intact life, they don't have a prob with you knowing anything about them. Your wife or husband will be ok with them letting you see their cell phone or their online password.

I would let her know that part of the provision of recovery for the MB program is to have a transparent relationship, HIDING NOTHING, and that is to help the betrayed spouse slowly begin to rebuild their trust, and for the affair to become something only of the past.

Tell her that it's part of what a well-respected program, with amazing results requires of the marriage partners to do in order to heal from the selfishness of adultery.

She doesn't need to BLAME YOU at all. it is the only way to a recovery. Without openeness and honesty, there's not much to a marriage truthfully. Don't let her gaslight you into thinking something must be wrong with you mentally, if you can't simply be ok with her secret behaviors. That's gaslighting dude.

Well once she agrees to recovery again hopefully I can.

Right now I pushed her away so much she is unsure and revising our history negatively.

I am finished with exposure and hoping planA Gets us back to recovery

I think she picked him up and went to the beach with him.

How long should I stick with plan A?

Her mom is experienced at divorce, if it comes to plan b how do I do it f she refuses to leave the house?

I think rather her AFFAIR has pushed her away. I would continue to cause as much trouble as possible in her affair. Confront her about her cruel behavior and demand she end her affair. Tell her this will lead to divorce.

I think some minimal progress has been made.

The exposure I think has been effective.....She is not as mad anymore. SHe appears to say lets just kind of hold on, stop the affair, and start off for now just being friends.

The first 2 weeks I guess I was putting too much pressure on fixing the marriage and her pulling her weight on that. HOpefully, if she sticks with this plan A will beging to work. I guess for Plan B to begin I would have to file for legal seperation.....

Blaze, I would tell her you have no interest in being her "friend," that you are her husband. Tell her if she doesn't end the affair that you will have nothing to do with her when this goes to divorce.

Are you making plans to pay a visit to loserboy?

blaze, this is not progress. This is called negotiating. She is negotiating with you in order to keep OM in the picture. She has no intention of stopping the A. She has clearly shown you that.

You need to snoop, my friend. And quit insinutating that anything you have done has caused this A. She made a choice to have one. It's that simple.

I still plan on snooping....

I will be aware if she sees OM.

The idea of being just friends is just a temporary solution to live peacefully and allow me to deposit love units to work torwards restoration. Basically what I mean is that I am not going to pressure her and make demands that she meet my needs right away. I just want to make sure the affair is over. She seems to be in that spot, that if we split she doesn't want it to be becoause of OM. I think the exposure really helped get her there.

I got back my copy of survivng an affair that I lent out and am going to start reading it again.

With her and me off work right now she wont see him if she has the kids, only if she dumps them off. She lied about seeing him yesterday, but they didn't stay at his house. He doesn't have a car so it makes it easy to know when she sees him by checking gps. She can't hide it right now. The curren place we are at seems the best place to begin plan A. Just friends is not the permamnent solution, I am not saying that and neither is she. But friends with om out of the picture seems like the most progress we have made. I just hope OM is out of the picture and I will know if he's not and continue to snoop and not trust her.

I am not making plans to visit him, I decided against that. I know he will just want to fight. I can tell by there conversations. He is thriving on this and what it does for his ego.

If I visit him he will try to beat me up I am convinced.

Oh and I plan on putting my foot down as far as her dumping the kids off on me and if I don't allow it she doesn't have anyone else who will enable her.

You mean to say you're worried he'd FIGHT you? Heck Blaze, he's already doing that now to you and boinking wife.

I'd go to his door, have a friend stand nearby with a video camera rolling, and a cell phone or two handy. With police on speed dial.

I'd expose to this posom face to face,and if he laid one hand on you, you'd have proof and also a witness to have him arrested.

Isn't this guy the violent type anyway? Most of the time, (my xh actually beat up his now xw recently)those who are violent to women TOTALLY WUSS OUT WHEN IT COMES TO MEN. They only want to hurt smaller people, like me, but are freaked out and scared totally when it comes to STANDING UP TO A REAL MAN.

Has my xwh tried to go at it with a guy? Nope. He's a wussy. Only wants to harm the fairer sex one way or another. I suspect this dude is the same.

Just come prepared and you need to let him know you will not ALLOW him to continue the affair with your wife. Tell him that you're going to END THIS AFFAIR. And that you will not make things easy, in fact, you tell this pos that you will REIGN HELL down on him if he tries to destroy your family.

Remember you're not threatening HIM exactly saying this, you're telling him you'll make it extremely difficult to carry on the affair. So no worries at all.

Yes, I think he would just fight with me right away if I confronted. HE is the type who likes physical fights with these guys. He is bigger than me. I have thought that even if did beat me up it might be a good thing but have been convinced otherwise for now. What is MB advice?

Yes I am in a fight with him to save my marriage, but is it good advice to confront him face to face?

HE is on Parole....would it basically be if she goes to him just show up and tell him to knock it off and that I am there fighting for my marriage or something?

Is face to face confrontation with OM what Dr. Harley recommends?

Outside of confronting om what about ny 10 year old daughter who has been told. Is it ok to send her with ww to ensure no contact. She has been told mommy has a secret phone she uses.

For example, She my have to go to the post office and I worry if she goes alone.....

Should I tell my daught why I want her to go with mommy?

Been reading survivng an affair again.....trying to only read the chapters pertaining to where we are at because I get ahead of myself sometimes.

It is probably the most important book I have ever purchased. What a blessing.

I keep it in my nightstand for occasional night-time reading. Still.

Maybe so, unless somebody gave you a FREE Bible, for that is THE most important book to ever read.

Is it a sin to steal a Gideon Bible from a hotel room? Never did it...always wondered, though...

I think if you needed to read it that much, He'd probably say ok.



After all, don't the Gideons give them to the hotels?

I've always believed that would be a lesser sin when a soul gets up there

by the way I am a religious person.

she has been behaving, she got to say her goodbye to om her way, and now says she will be good.

I don't believe her and think its just a matter of time, would be great if she proved me wrong though.

I think plan b is the best chance of success based on observing her and knowing how she is. Unfortunately getting to plan b I know will involve a lawyer. I guess how long I go with plan a depends on her but 6 months is my max right now.

I was just rading chapter 4 in survivng an affair, "How do affairs usually end" and realizing that is likely what I am in for even though I am trying to get her to listen to chapter 5 how affairs should end.

A bit of a wakeup call, but this is a pretty bad affair. I think she is close to the sould mate level on the scale.

I was just realizing I need to find the phone and takeaway her cash stash. Make her debit or credit everything so there is a record. I need to not trust her

What I wanted to ask the vets is now that I finished my exposures how much do I talk about the affair and what's going on? Only with my confidants? No more publicity?

Also my 10 year old, many people disagree with her being told. How much do I talk with her about it? She was under the impression it was done and mommy is staying for sure. I told her its still up in the air and that we don't know what mommy will do. Her mom said she didn't like being babysat by her when I sent her to the poast office with mom. I told her mom still hasn't given up her secret cell phone. Should I stop discussing it with her?

I figure its only a few days till ww can't take it and ends up contacting him. I sent him another email telling him I am planning to fight for the marriage and am going to know if ww lies to me about it and that I may even show up if they meet. I saw in chapter 4 that what she did the other day getting away to clear her thoughts was textbook.

Hi blaze. I would continue to talk to your 10 year old and anyone else about the affair. Let your DD know how the affair affects you and encourage her to bring it up to her mother. She needs to know that her mother is willing to give up her family over a big fat loser.

When you email that loser, tell him that there is no future in his affair because he will be eternally hated by your children and the inlaws.

Did you expose to loserboys family and friends on facebook? OM don't like trouble so you should be doing everything in your power to run that coward off.

Thank you, I did email him and told him I was going to fight for this marriage and that I will know if Misty lies to me and that if they do meet again I just may show up.

I will continue talking to my daughter also.

He replied that he hoped my God blesses me with the chance to confront him.

I replied asking him why, what he was going to do.

He replied he was going to go to bed and said see ya stud.

I replied Thats what I thought, all bark no bite and said he was a [censored] cat

Should I be egging him on so much....that and the warning to not make him angry I wonder if they constitute a threat that could be a parole violation. How would I go about contacting his parole officer?

I would find out who his parole officer is and send a certified letter to him and the supervising judge in the case. Do some legwork and see if you find out who that would be.

I stiil am asking for her secret cell phone and she is still refusing to give it up....any advice on what to do. Should I search for it and find it myselfy?

Continue asking for it.

Anything to say that might convice her to give it up?

Carry on looking , never stop.

What about this.....she is pulling this thing that she is not sure. She is not trying to fix our marriage right now. Do I carry on with plan a or do I oush her to make a choice to work thing out or go?

You carry on with plan A until you cannot sustain it anymore and you actively work to get the OM out of her life

So that means accepting her indecision and unwillingness to choose to work on the marriage and not making a demand on the phone in order to avoid doing anything to make her unhappy and doing whatever she will allow to meet her needs right?

Since we are both off work right now what about if she insists on dumping the kids on me to see him, I obviouslly can't make her not go, but if figure I will verbally put my foot down and not allow it. If she does that should I try to follow her or go to where she is to confront them?

I would NOT bring the kids, but you could drive over there, video her pulling into his driveway or where he lives, and smile and wave at her.

Or just follow over there and then video her car at his house. Its good in case this goes in any legal route at all, plus it's evidence she IS having an affair.

Tell her you showed the 10 year old. The 10 yo needs to know why mommy is not being a mommy right now.

Definitely take away her cash. I'd take away ALL cash monies now. Change the pin code to the bank so she can't get cash. However, you can get cash at the grocery store by opting for the "cash back" at the end of a transaction. Hell I'd take away her credit cards if you are primary on them. I'd take away all monies. Tell her you're not financing this affair! Let the skanky posom prisoner finance it!

I'd also tell the 10 year old that the man is a dangerous ex con. I would also let ww know that YOU ARE NOT ALLOWING your children around OM because of his dangerous past and that she can bet her money on it. What's left of "her" money since you aren't going to be giving her any more!

Imho, after a good plan A, if she is totally disrespecting you AND the marriage, she needs to be out of the house. Children STAY WITH YOU, the wayward must go.

I am thinkink plan b is coming really soon.

I don't want it to be ugly. She has been being honest and the honesty is revealing the ugliness and hopelessness of plan A.

I need to preapre more for plan B....I want to tell her ill take her back after plan B, that's its not over but I know that's wrong. I need help drafting a plan b letter or something. I am so confused and hurt right now.

I fell like I can't take her car and money away....that will make this ugly.

Ijust fell like scew this....she is fraking stupid, she will miss what she's got, itt wont work out, and she will come crawling back to me.

I need a marriage counselor....how do I get one of dr harleys associates on the phone?

OK, she left.

I am on to plan B.

Got lots of questions on that. Basically I don't put much on the chances of the Affair lasting too long. With that in mind, I feel like when she comes running back I can't just take her back, that would feel like I gave her a hall pass like in that movie I never saw.

Basically I was starting to see the big picture I felt. I had bugged conversation of the first contact she had thought was secret and when they first saw each other after I found out and confronted the affair. There was no intention from her to really try to work things out with me. She was at least to a point after the exposure to where she was being honest. With that in mind I felt Plan B was the only place to go....Plan A was only going to prolong the pain for everyone. It was pretty smooth getting here, she left peaceably and there was no negativity or ill will or anything. Surprisingly right now it simply feels like a huge relief.

I am reading the surviving an affair book to make sure I am clear on what the plan is....I'll check back here in a bit.

Even though I am done with my exposures do I expose this? Her choice.

Not sure about that, I have all the contact info in a list. I can send messages.

I actually started contacting a few people....I guess thats a yes.

I was marking stuff on a Calendar....
Contact with OM originated on 2-24
Became sexual on 3-14
I found out and confronted and tried to do Plan A on 3-29
Since she was refusing to make a choice and was simply afraid to leave me I only gave it 2 weeks. Did I make a mistake? Was it worth continuing?
She left and plan B on 3-17

I am conflicted, I feel like I am vascillating between plan A and plan B. With all our kids, and me wanting to avoid legal actions at this time (hiring a lawyer and filing for seperation) I almost feel like all my mediators are drying up and then it feels like I am basically just giving her a free pass to enjoy here affair until it dies naturally.

Should I still think about confronting OM even though I am trying to do plan B. Is it common for people in plan B to worry they are tolerant of the affair? Should I move forward with legal action or press for legal mediation?

I wrote the letter explaining Plan B to her....I guess its just really hard.

I don't see that you are in plan B.
If you don't have an intermediary to handle all communication about her visitations with the children and financial issues, you can't be in B.
Just cause she left doesn't make it plan B. It just means she isn't in the house. Don't lovebust when in contact with her.
Continue to study up on the plans. Try to put your emotions on the back burner and prepare to go to plan B. It does sound like you should go to it soon since you are having trouble keeping your hurt at bay.
When you do go to plan B, you do not try to save your marriage. You try to save yourself and your kids from further hurt. You talk to a lawyer to see what is in your best interest. You don't consider her bast interest anymore.
You need to post your plan B letter here to get input so you have a good, tight, well written one. Don't give her a plan B letter without getting it edited by the people here. You will make errors in it cause you are too close the the situation, being in the heart of it.
To talk to a MB coach you call the coaching center and arrange one. It costs money but is well worth it.
Otherwise you email the radio program for advice and get some input.
Try to calm down.

My intermediary's all sort of fell apart.

It's tough with the kids.

Here is the letter I sent as my plan B Letter:

"My Dear **edit**,

I know I have said much of this before but I feel the need to say it one last time. I am sorry for the part I have played in what has led us this horrible situation. I did no make you a priority. I let the kids and their sports get in the way in spite of your protests. I failed to listen to you as I should have. I was not affectionate as I should have been or as often as I should have been. I was downright hurtful in my reaction to your tattoos which you got for us. I overall allowed a lifestyle to arise that was too much stress for both of us, especially for you.

I am will to correct and avoid theses mistakes. I have made and try to create a new life that will meet you needs and free you from as undue stress as possible. I have come to realize that I can not accomplish those goals however until you end your relationship with **edit** once and for all.

Until I have assurances that has happened I am doing to have to avoid talking to you as much as possible. That's why I reacted as i did when you began to update me on your legal matter with your license. I will continue to communicate with you throug my mom, yours and my sister, pookie, and your grandma to make arrangements with the kid. I don't find it acceptable that you would spend the day with the kids and then at night go see **edit**. I also think that you should support yourself, go back to work. I'lll pay off your credit card, and I will want some of your check for the mortgage and car, but after that you need to take care of your self. I think you should turn in the wedding ring at this t

The situation had become unlivable for me and I hope you respect my decision to separate from you this way. You know the pain and suffering this has caused me and I can't take that pain any longer. I still love you, I just cant be with you or talk to you under these circumstances any more.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Jacob, and are willing to follow the measures to ensure it's permanent, then I will be willing discuss future together.

I want us to be happy together as a family. I want to make you happy and put you first. If you are happy our kids will then be happy by extension. You are my priority. We need to create a new lifestyle and make changes. That's what I want, something new and better. I want honesty and communication. I want to give you affection. I want to make you happy.

I love you still I just can't be with you while you are insisting on being hung up on **edit**,

With all my Love,"

I am feeling right now like I really messed up in trying to go to plan B.

I basically told her she should leave and she did. Now it is basically like she is continuing on the affair with no remorse and I have no ability to keep her from him with my snooping or anything. I have lost all leverage. I asked her to come home again and she refused. I still have limited ability to meet her needs, I guess what I should do is go to plan A by telling her to come home and spend as much time with the kids as possible?

Dont talk to her ever again.. Dont let her take the kids to see the ex con. Id file for custody of the kids. Get an intermediary. If she ends the affair and agrees to very high no contact precautions she can come back. Dont let her use you as a babysitter, be active--- declare war on her infidelity. File for divorce, she needs to support those kids.

Reconciliation is possible but you are plan B.. No contact, no saving marriage.. Let scumbag try to take care of her, I bet he wont get close.

My opinion (you may want to email and talk to the radio show and get theirs)
mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

You sound like you are unable to plan A, you are running with your emotions and letting them vent and lead.
She knows you want to recover the marriage (your beautiful letter and asking her to come back).

I think LoveCAG has good advice in this situation. Especially since the OM is an ex con.

Protect your children. Get legal custody.
Protect yourself (fnancially and emotionally from their toxic affair).

Then, should the affair die. Hopefully and probably it will.....the family may rebuild.

Release control of knowing the things she is up to, as long as your children aren't in her proximity.

Email the radio show and get their input . Fast.

I actually got to talk to Steve Harley (who is great by the way). My wife actually listened to him also, but is not unwilling to "work on the marriage right now".

I am definitely in Plan B, took me awhile to see how and why. When she is around I still love her and want to try and make things better.

Anyway, I am trying to not talk to her as much as possible (still learning) and I am supposed to call Steve back.

Steve assured me I was right to go to plan B. Basically once her attempts to meet conditions failed early there was no other choice....the affair was ongoing and she was going to continue it regardless. That makes plan B the only option really.

So, yesterday she decided to meet my conditions and stay. I know that this is a decision she will have to continually make. I hope this means we are in recovery and not in plan A. I know its a tenuous situation, but it's really the best I could have hoped for at this point.

Blaze28,

You must set your plan into place now........
1. No Contact Letter.
2. Complete Transparency
3. Work on your lists of emotional needs that haven't been met and start meeting them.
4. Open and Honesty
5. Set up boundaries in the marriage so neither of you will ever have the chance to have an affair. Affair proof the marriage.
6. Make sure you spend at least 15 hours a week together, just you two, undivided attention...
7. Work together the MB way to create a marriage you both will be happy in......

It's the first step to recovery, it starts with a good plan.............this is your chance to fix the things that weren't working ......
good luck

The first step I think is having the common goal. She very much made this decision to come home because of how it was hurting the kids. The goal is for us to be in love, but she still can't see that as realistic....its like having a goal to buy a unicorn to her. The withdrawal is pretty severe and she is being honest, she only wants to be with him, its the only thing that would make her happy etc. I told her she is almost asking me for permission to go see him when she phrases it like that and asked her to simply tell me that she is missing him when she feels that way. She has gone back to work and it is making it difficult to implement any plan. She is reluctant to do anything or make changes. At least I am sure that she has not had any contact with him. At this point I am at least sure, due to my snooping, that she is being honest about not having contacted him since Monday.

I think to move on to the other steps I need to wait out the withdrawal period. I know that is not normal but she is so reluctant and unwilling to do anything to fix things at this time.

Blaze,
Your wife has made the first step, she will have many days where she will question her choice, right now she is in withdrawal and can't even think about changing anything yet........Give her some time I think Dr. Harley says it takes about 6 weeks of no contact, you should see some changes after that......
I know you want to fix everything today but the process of recovery takes quite some time to work through.........
Just be loving and patient, show her she made the right choice, take care of her. Don't expect anything back and don't let it hurt your feelings, the affair wasn't about you it was about her poor boundaries...........Just keep repeating yourself that you love her and that when she is ready you will work together to have a happy marriage for both of you........
Keep checking for contact, keep quiet and just let her work through her feelings. Keep yourself busy with the kids and the house and she will eventually see the man that has stood beside her and a man that will forgive her for what she has done.........It takes a while......
one day at a time.......every little thing helps, nothing is to small.......
do little things she won't expect.......the surprise jestures, little hugs, the touch of an arm........be her safe place to fall.....
So happy she has come to the best decision of her life...........
jessi

Thank you so much for your inspiration.....words I really needed to hear.

she has slippped and I caught her talking to him on instant messenger.

I am not sure what to do or how to react. Please help.

She doesnt know I know yet.

If it were me, I'd sit her down and ask her if she has had any contact. If she lies, then consider B. She also has not committed to any plan per se, and she's not on board with anything as of yet.

Thus, maybe she needs a harsh lesson in reality. Don't be a doormat here. She thinks she has a hall pass to do whatever she lies since she came home. I think she needs to know about something called consequences. No begging, pleading, or anything. Just possibly consider going plan B and showing her the door.

She did lie about it. I exposed her lie. I am still sticking with it. She is taking leave from work so she won't have the temptation to talk to him while she is at work....at least until she goes back. Then what? If she is not being honest at all about contact then I think, if there is any more, I may have to separate.

Wow. slap on the hand.

What is she exactly doing to be open, honest and transparent? Go over Dr. Harley's recommendations on how to be transparent and make her do it. Every bit of it. Or else she is out.

She cannot go back to work if he is at her work. She cannot have any venue for contact with om if she is to commit to the marriage and this must happen. If she is not willing to do that, then the affair WILL resume.

Even well she is off work I discovered another secret email she was using to contact him.

Strangely, it ended up being reassuring. She has been trying to keep it going but he is barely showing interest. She writes him and he barely responds with one line. She was saying things seem different and it seems this is a bit of why. He originally was very responsive and attentive and his meeting that need drew her in to the affair. Now it's basically dying off.

We have 2 more weeks with no work and I am pretty confident there will be no contact in that time. When she goes back to work I think there probably will be although I hope we can recover in our marriage enough in that time to where I might be wrong about that.

So finally it seems she has stopped contacting him and we are trying to restore our marriage. It's been about 3 weeks since she last contacted him.

Blaze28,

We had a OW that wouldn't stop either, she contacted my husband from time to time for months.........the last one was last Sept.........I hope it is finally over, the last time I called her and told her to stop calling my husband that is was time for her selfishness to stop and that she should do the right thing.........
then I told her to F-off........felt great.......
expect it from time to time, remember your husband has no control over what she choses to do................
baby steps..........good luck
jessi

Its my wife that won't stop contacting OM....him contacting her is a non-issue.

She has gone back to work and I found out the first day back that she tried to call him. I found her work phone in the car and found his number in the history. Today is her second day that she will go to work tonight.

She says he did not answer and she only tried to contact him that one call. She says she won't contact him anymore, which I have heard more times than I care to recall.

As much as she has failed to not contact him....every single time she has had an opportunity she has attempted to...I still believe that she won't and we are moving forward with recovery.

Our biggest issue is my need for intimacy and her inability to give that to me at this time. I have ranked it as my #1 most important emotional need and am very unhappy because we have no marital intimacy. Since she is unwilling and we are following the policy of joint agreement I simply have to suffer with not having that need met. It is really hard for me and I don't know how to get past it as it threatens to put me in to withdrawal mode and we had a big fight about it on my birthday. Does anyone have any advice of how to deal with this?....it seems to me I just have to be patient until she is ready.

I get in to love busters because of the subject. I don't understand why she won't be intimate. She had no problem being intimate with OM, and our marriage was not a disaster and we were being intimate before this all happened. The affair was more about her allowing him to meet needs she should have left for me to meet and it was an escape from the responsibilities of being married with 6 kids in a 2 bedroom condo. I can't compete with that, I can't be an escape. She was frustrated that I was putting the kids in sports and how that strained our schecules. We have no sports now and are opening escrow on a bigger house that fits our family and I am listening better. Even before she would tell me that I win the husband comparisons during girl talk sessions, I had learned a lot from the last affair although I was not perfect our marriage seemed in much better shape than nearly all of our acquaintances. This affair was worse on the scale and I am still in shock and disbelief over the whole thing. I question if she has really loved me the 10 plus years or if she was with me for different reasons. I want her to have the passion for me that she has for the OM but I don't know if she has ever felt that way for me or ever will. She has chosen to stay only for the sake of the kids. The whole situation makes me feel like dirt. I need my needs to be met so I can feel better but she can't or won't. If she doesn't soon I don't know how long I can keep fighting before going in to the state of withdrawal.

If she is in contact, then she is still IN THE AFFAIR. That is why the lack of intimacy, plain and simple.

And it sounds like she's in contact. So there's your sign! (my new thing here borrowed from B.E.!)

Your biggest issue is her AFFAIR. You are putting the cart before the horse. You cannot go onto Step TWO until STEP ONE is achieved. Your wife plans on having it both ways and keeping you both on the line. Do you realize this? She is not done with her affair at all.

Until she ends her affair, there is no reason to attempt addressing recovery. She needs to move out until her affair is over, blaze. I would tell her she needs to pack up and move out tonight. She is not serious in the least and is extremely destructive.

You are in a false recovery becuase you let her come after Plan B too soon. She was not at all interested in ending her affair. It is real important to make sure she is committed to meeting your conditions before you let her come back. Now she is under the impression that you have no standards. You have lowered the bar so low that she is just living down to your expectations.

I will have to consult with Steve.

Over the past month I only found the one unanswered call as far as attempted contact.

I have felt the affair was the main reason for the lack of intimacy for awhile. It's hard to know if she has contacted him while she is at work but as far as I can tell she has not.

Going back to Plan B seems like such a drastic measure for the progress we have made.

Progress Blaze? She agreed to recovery and POJA and she is unwilling to meet your needs??? So under POJA you agreed to give up your needs?
Opening Escrow? A major life decision? Cancel that escrow.
I agree with the others but if your under consultation with Steve he will better advise. Sounds to me as its a FR.
Also understand that she has to connect emotionally to you to give you access to her body. I know its hard but thats the way women are wired. But what also must be understood by HER is that you need access to her body to connect to her emotionally. Its a 2 way street. Thats is how we are wired. POJA should have a middle ground here blaze.
If she continues the contact and you can hold on emotionally and physically then Plan A may be the better fit. If you cant endure it emotionally or physically and start seeing signs like more weight loss etc. Then plan B is definitely in order.

Ditto. something smells around that escrow situation.

I smell a wayward somewhere at work!

The affair sadly may have gone further underground. Resume snooping and carry it deeper. I think it's still going on.

If's she's calling, SHE IS STILL WAYWARD.

One call leads to one thing and then "another".

It's hard to tell...if the affair is still going on it is only in the form of contact via messages or phone calls. I don't think there is anyway that my snooping can catch it however. She has been caught too many times that I think she knows all the ways that I would catch her and could avoid them.

The only way I could catch her is if I happen to bug her while she is talking to him. I guess I should keep seeing if I can, it just gets tedious and I am not sure if its healthy.

I am comforted by the fact that I am virtually certain that there is no way she can see him with out me knowing about it.

By the way, what does FR stand for?

False Recovery

I have been snooping and I don't think this is a false recovery. Steve didn't seem worried about that or voice any concerns.

She has quit all contact as far as I can tell but I will continue to snoop.

We used up all our sessions with Steve and can't really afford to continue with him. I have some marriage counseling benefits through work so we are going to have to try to continue recovery with a different counselor.

She has an aversion to counseling based on past experience but did think Steve was an excellent counselor. What she thought was great about him was that he didn't take sides and that he remained neutral. I really hope we can find a good counselor like Steve.

Our biggest conflict is still the lack of her meeting my need for SF. This affair has done so much damage to our relationship.

blaze, my top EN is SF. Be patient I was, but I voiced the need often. Simply put I would tell her that I wasn't happy and wouldn't ever be if she couldn't or wouldn't meet my SF need.If that was the case she needed to be honest so that I could make a decision about my future with her.
I have also heard it put like this and repeated it. A wife must give access to her body to have access to her husbands emotions. A Husband must give access to his emotions to have access to his wife's body. So when A's happen it takes a woman a while to re-connect emotionally. When that happens you will have to beat her off with a stick. Keep on meeting that need for her and it WILL pay off as long as your honest about YOUR need.

I suggest you two budget in other areas so that you can pay for MB coaching.
If you are doing well with it....drive less (gas money), eat cheaper, something to make up the $.

Things have gotten much better.

It appears to me that the affair is completely over and we have been to the new counselor twice. The second time seemed like the guy might actually help.

I am starting to get my needs met and she says things have been getting better.

I think I am struggling again.

I feel like my wife is a taker, that the score is not even. I feel like the giver. She meets my needs only when it's convenient to her and when I think she falls short of what she owes me I have feelings of resentment. I have been avoiding love busters and over riding my takers instincts successfully but my emotional needs are not being met to my satisfaction and it makes me very unhappy. She does not seem to have much interest in making me happy is how I feels. It feels like a rut and I don't seem to know how to get out of it unless she starts scoring more points/depositing more love units.

I just don't know what to do.

Have you watched the videos available free here on MB with her? Are you working through the program together?

I did, after trying for awhile, get her to watch the infidelity video but I haven't been trying the rest.

She has a basic unwillingness to read any relationship books. She has excuses, that she is reading something else, but she recently finished so I'll see if she actually picks up any book.

The only Harley book I still have is surviving an affair.

This is part of my frustration however. She seems unwilling to really focus efforts on the marriage. She has a ton on her plate with 6 kids and a graveyard work schedule so she just doesn't seem to have much left over for me.

We have been seeing a marriage counselor.

Have you read Stretch's posts lately? You may want to hear the advice he received because his wife is in the same situation.

Have you written into the radio program?

mbradio@marriagebuilders.com --- Q: How do I get my wife to dedicate 20+ hours to recovery with six kids and 3rd shift job?

Most likely they will strongly encourage her to change work hours. Her job may be the end of your marriage if you cannot get the 20+ hours in to work on the marriage.

Tough~

Her work schedule is a sore spot.

She does not want to consider changing it and insists it is not a problem. If I bring it up it turns in to a fight very quickly.

I tried searching for Stretchs posts and couldn't find them, could you point me in the right direction.

You have to make some decisions on what you want for this marriage. Can you negotiate a good deal for her to find a new job? Try and discuss solutions on how she plans to do 20+ hours of UA time.

Can you set an every week date night with her in the beginning?

Another thing I am struggling with is that I want to talk about the affair.

I keep feeling like we are far enough removed from it and able to talk about it like adults. I also feel like issues should be discussed and addressed instead of ignored and swept under the rug.

I think the discussion can be had without withdrawing love units on either side.

Your MB Plan is all off. The affair should have been discussed months ago.

Please write into the radio to discuss your plan. You really need a precise plan to start recovery. The plan you are in doesn't seem to be working, and the EN's for you and your wife are going unmet.

Talking about the affair today doesn't get you farther into recovery. It is going to set you back to day one because you have not had Radical Honesty with your WW.

What else is she hiding today? You have shown her radical honesty isn't necessary in the marriage!!!!

In the meantime I would sit WW down and have Dr. Harley's plan for recovery in front of her.

I would say to her we have 30 days to implement this or our marriage is over. I will file for divorce based on adultery, I will gain custoy of our children, and you and I will not be friends.

Now is the time to get it all out on the table with radical honesty from both of you, otherwise your mental state it going to keep deteriorating, and you may end up with a nervous breakdown.

Get a Plan set-up today, and it must include 20 hours of UA time with her. If that cannot happen without a change in jobs, then you let her know the job has to be negotiated because the 20 hours are nonnegotiable.

Tough

The affair was discussed months ago but I thought the plan was to avoid discussing it or bringing it up because every conversation about it withdrew love units.

I think we have been radically honest as well and I don't think she is hiding anything.

A big part of our problem is that we have 6 kids ages 10,9,4,2,2,1. That's alot of kids in diapers and twin toddlers are quite extreme bythemselves let alone with all the other kids. It makes it difficult to get that 20 hours and date night seems to happen about every other week on average. We both work full time as well. It puts alot of stress on a marriage but there isn't much we can do about it. We hope it gets easier as the kids get older but the stress is also a big factor in what led to the affair.

I am not interested in giving her ultimatums and I have some hope I am going to see some improvement as I foresee more time for SF and she I expect her to pick up some relationship advice books now too.

Maybe part of the problem too was the radical honesty in that I know so much about the affair that I am comparing it to our relationship and am jealous. I want to have what they had and while we are doing ok we are not even close to having that yet and it seems to me the stresses of our life situation are not going to allow us to get there.

The only time we have for UA is after the kids go to bed and before we do. Even if we do a date night it is usually an evening thing where we get a couple of extra hours. We have potential of about 12-14 hours of UA a week. Does watching TV together count?

No watching TV together does NOT count.

And, please, rethink wanting to "have what they had"

What they had was NOT reality. It wasn't paying bills, changing diapers, etc.

You need to find the UA time for your MARRIAGE.

And when the children get older, it doesn't get much easier. You need to cart kids off here, and there. I had a friend who told me, when I felt guilty about leaving my 6 month old to go back to work, that young children don't really care who is taking care of their needs. It's OLDER children that need their parents the most. Their problems are BIGGER.

I want her to miss me and have admiration for me and stroke my ego. I want her to talk me with that tone. I want to be her lover and not just her husband.

Is that barfy? I think they are emotional needs of admiration and affection. Maybe I am wrong.

Watching TV doesn't count but having sex does right?

UA time is spent meeting the four ENs of Conversation, Rec Comp, Affection and Sexual Fulfillment, so yes, sex counts. I don't know that 20+hours of SF would be possible, especially with 6 small children.

If you and your wife achieve a romantic marriage, she WILL miss you. You WILL get ALL of your ENs met. That's the point with MB. And it will be BETTER than what "they had" because it will be REAL.

Yeah a romantic marriage is definitely what I want.

The one need of hers I can't seem to meet is physical attractiveness. I am not unattractive and weight is not so much the issue. I just have no way to really exercise with the demands on my time. She likes a bit more muscles (like OM). Anyway when I ask her though she says I am doing a good job meeting her EN, she has no complaints.

I feel SF and admiration being better met by her would help me feel more romantic towards her. I don't think she gets the admiration part, it's something she did naturally with him and she fails even when I give her opportunities. SF I think we will be OK in after her recent trip to the dr. to help there ( her menstrual cycle was getting in the way alot).

I guess with our schedules we basically wouldn't be able to watch any tv or movies because it takes away from the limited opportunity for UA.

How about some of your UA time spent working out at home together after the kids go to bed?

Its been nearly a year since D-day so I am not sure if I should start a thread in recovery or just continue here....

She got invited to to a bar with some girl friends on Friday night and asked me how I felt about it.

I told her I wasn't comfortable with her going out to bars without me. Am I justified in this? She turned in to this thing where she says she hates that she feels she has to ask permission like she is my teenage daughter instead of my adult wife.

Your wife should have either declined or said you would be joining her, its for her to realise and act to protect the marriage boundaries.

Yes you are correct in your comments to her, she is testing you.

If she doesn't care or want to know how you feel, then why does she ask? Apparently she doesnt care about your feelings. And of course she doesn't have to ask your "permission." That is ridiculous. Tell her you are not her poppa daddy and she is not a teenager. She doesn't need your "permission" to act thoughtlessly and cruel.

You have a serious problem in your marriage. But I suspect you know that.

W and WW do not go out to bars without there husbands.

Her response shows that she does not understand boundaries or she does and refuses to put them in place because they interfere with her going out and doing things that a wife should not be doing.

I went back to your first post on this thread. With WW current attitude and past history of you knowing about two affairs I have to say that it is safe to assume she is a serial WW with more then two OM.

Here behavior makes me say it is time for a mandatory DNA paternity test.

I looked in to paternity tests and they are too expensive. I am nearly certain all the kids are mine and don't really see anything to gain from them even if I found out otherwise.

We had it out last night. I sent her an email a couple of days ago asking her how she felt if we were making any progress. The main emotional need of mine she is not meeting is SF and I told her that even when we do it it is not depositing love units like it should because it is so obvious it is a chore to her. I also said in the email that it felt to me like she still regretted the affair ending and that she did not regret having it.

So last night I asked her if she was going to reply to my email and she says that conversation scares her. She then denies me SF and says that it is a chore and she doesn't feel like it. I bring up that we need to do something to change this, but that I feel like there is no effort from her and that she takes me for granted. It comes up that it was so great for her during the affair to actually want sex again. I think this is out of line, I don't think she should be telling me how much she wanted to have sex with some other guy and how repulsive the idea of sex with me is. I get the I love you but it's not romantic so it makes sex hard.

Am I wrong to get upset at being told how great the affair was and how I am dog sheet to her? I felt it's a violation of the rule of protection and that she is completely ignoring the rule of care. There is no effort by her to deposit love units (to which she says she is too busy busting her [censored] with six kids and a full time job). I just feel taken for granted and mistreated and that I don't deserve this.

I have suggested we start the marriage builders online program but she hasn't agreed saying where would we get the money. I think her real problem is that she doesn't want to put forth any effort.

I just don't know what to do. I slept on the couch and am ready to just stop doing all the crap I do for her since she doesn't do anything for me. I guess that means I am ready to go in to withdrawal. I just hope that maybe she will miss the attention and love I have been giving her and she will stop taking me for granted and actually make some effort to try and get me back. I am sick and tired of being the only one who is trying and being rewarded by being emasculated on how undesirable it is to have sex with me. It hurts me that sex with me is such a horrible thing to her. How am I supposed to keep loving someone who treats me like that?

I am so upset about her attitude towards sex with me (that its a chore that she is pressured in to) that I have been sleeping on the couch. I am hoping that her seeing how much it hurts me will make her want to extend an olive branch.

We did sign up for the marriage builders online program.

Blaze - Dr. Harley suggests two years post d-day in Plan A.

The issue concerning paternity may be a double edge sword. I strongly encourage you to email Dr. Harley, mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and have both your wife and him speak to determine if not knowing will forever harm your romantic love building.

If you are no longer able to Plan A, then I encourage you to Plan B until your WW is willing to meet your needs.

Are you 100% making sure you have no lovebusters?
Are you 100% certain you have her needs mastered?

Try to figure out if there is any tweaking and/or lovebusters that are hampering recovery efforts.

Tough~

If she is still wayward this won't bother her one bit ... get back to your bed ...

If she is still wayward I am 100% sure it's not physical. It's just not possible as I know where she is every minute of the day.

The only way is if she still makes calls or emails at work that I have no way of knowing about. I guess I have my suspicions about this, but on the other hand I am pretty sure with out the physical aspect the OM would have lost interest unless he is doing the minimum to keep the option of rekindling the affair in the future. If there is any of this type of contact I would guess it's minimal. It might be whats damaging our relationship but there is nothing I can do about it so I try not to imagine the worst and assume there is no contact.

I had been trying to meet EN and avoid lovebusters and when I ask for feedback I get no complaints. She just constantly says she has too much on her plate with her job and the 6 kids. She says she is depressed and overwhelmed.

Hire her help ... six kids and a full time job are exhausting ... are you getting at least 20+ hours of UA time in per week?

I would suggest dramatically changing your domestic support EN ... she needs help ... meet that need for her and do it in mass quantities ... hire help or swap out babysitting with friends.

Parenting small kids is very stressful ... do what you can to make sure to ease some of that burden so you can up your UA time together.

There is no way I can conceive of that we could afford to hire her help. The only thing that might help is pre-school but I am not sure if we can afford that either. Our budget is tight with a new mortgage. The bigger house we were hoping would help relieve her stresses some and while it probably did it also creates new ones.

I thought our goal was 15 hours of UA.....we don't really get it. When the kids go to bed we mostly watch TV and I can't seem to convince her that we should be putting that time to better use by meeting each others needs. In her mind it's another burden that would take away the only free time she has. I try to give her affection and some conversation during these times. All my suggestions of what else we should do with our time is shot down by her.

Being wayward is a state of mind. Having the sick relationship in her mind still will make it impossible for her to connects with you.

15 hours UA time is the bare minimum for a couple already in love. 15 hours will only MAINTAIN love and prevent love bank overdrafts. If you want to make actual deposits its got to be closer to 20/25. Your coach will talk you through it.

If she's not signed up to UA time she's still wayward and needs to be Plan Ad.

Dr H advises against trying to have UA time in the house near a TV. Can you run errands together? Arrange more outings? What is she passionate about, what are her interests? Can you ask for F&F to support with babysitting?

Without 20+ of intimate Emotional needs meeting ... you will be in this state of limping forever.

Turn off the T.V. for one and here are some suggestions.

Play "Go Fish"
Play "Naked Go Fish"
Play Chess
Read HNHN together
Melt some peanut butter and dip apples for a late night snack
Take a bubble bath together
Give her a massage
Paint her toe nails
Sit on the back patio and talk
Play Wii or Xbox together
Learn a foreign language together
Watch your children sleep while talking

Up your UA time immediately ... life will start looking better.

Well I am trying to get her on board with the idea of getting away from the TV on her nights off but I don't know how well that going to go.

She wants to take SF completely off the table for now which is a big problem for me because it's my #1 emotional need. I know the POJA means no sex with out enthusiastic agreement and apparently when she has been agreeing to it she hasn't been enthusiastic. She says she feels pressured and then violated. She also seems to have a problem with the idea of me meeting her needs if the motivation behind my doing so is just to get SF. This is why she wants to take SF off the table for awhile and just work on meeting needs. She was offended when I told her if I got sex more often after cleaning the house that we would have a cleaner house and accused that of going against marriage builders principles (since I said I have been more likely to blow it off since I was not being rewarded for my efforts).

I am just so frustrated that sex is such an issue for her.

Here we have a rare case of a wayward being right. Plan A is about you meeting her needs unconditionally to de fog her. How is pressurising her to have sex going to do that? You're not in recovery yet. You need to Plan A her.

Plan A is like courting a very reluctant girl who is only OK with being friends 'just yet'. You wouldn't pressure her in that situation would you? This is why Plan A sucks, but it is your best shot long term

And you should never ask for her to meet needs she cannot do enthusiastically. That's a SD and is lovebusting her bank balance.



WHY would you say this!!!!!!!

Offering DS as 'payment' for sex is no diff to offering FS. Both approaches from a man suggest indifference to a womans pleasure as long as his needs are met. Sex with a man who isn't deeply concerned about your pleasure is a very off putting concept to most women.

Plus it wouldn't meet your needs anyway. Her enduring sex and 'putting up with it' so you'll do DS won't put coins in your bank account. It'll increase your resentment. An all around terrible idea.

I think you have this idea that if you can get her between the sheets you can turn her on. Unlikely. Most women need wooing first and sex as desert. Otherwise its no good for them.



That's a horrible thing to say. Apologise. She isn't your reward.



I know it sucks that she destroyed her love bank for you with her affair. However that's the reality and women don't want sex with a man they don't love. That's a GOOD thing, usually.As long as she is willing to have her lb rebuilt, she's doing all she can.



She's dead right. She wants to be in love with you and is trying to give you the directions.

Apologise for demanding sex. Tell her from now on POJA is a LAW in your marriage. Tell her you would instead like the chance to woo her with dates. Tell her you will wait for her to ask you or initiate SF if she needs it.

Then build that LB up immediately.

(Are you using much porn to get through this dry spell? If so, stop. It bugs your wife and is prob the place you got this idea she should be able to want it because you do)

This really sucks, I don't want to plan A I want her to pull her weight and recover together. I told her when she decided to stay that I didn't have the energy to do it again. I plan A'd my butt off after the first affair, I saw where I had failed as a husband and was determined to change it. Even when I won her back she was still selfish and was not meeting my needs and it eventually took it's toll and I had a nervous breakdown. After that she really stepped up and loved me and I thought we were doing fine. She thought we were doing fine. We recommended marriage builders to people and we mutually considered our marriage better than our peers. She would tell me how I always came out ahead when the girls talked about and compared their husbands.

That's why this second, much worse affair was such a blind side. I can't do this again and it's scaring me now because it sounds like it's the only real choice I have. I don't have the energy not the desire to give so much to someone who gives such little back in return. Some one who has hurt me again, only much deeper this time. Maybe my marriage is over because I can't do this alone.

Why do you wish you were in recovery when you are not doing recovery either? Would you demand she 'get over her issues' and fake sexual enjoyment for you in return for vaccuuming if in recovery?

Do you understand the love bank? That selfish demands withdraw love? Do you understand that DEMANDING a wife pleasure you is very wrong?

Even a woman with a full love bank, who has the hots full time for her DH would react badly to a selfish demand for sex.

Her love bank is too low for her to create sexual desire. She can't magic it out of thin air. You're asking her to bake you bread while stealing all her flour.

Most women see sex as the dessert. The sweetest tasting part of the relationship meal, but one which comes at the end of the meal, after other needs are met.

Married women are only allowed to eat in one restaurant. So it better be a good one. While dessert is usually great, it stops being fun when its the only thing you can get, worse when you're being ordered to eat it, while starving for the steak and potatoes of the intimate needs.

FS means the rent gets paid so the restauarnt stays open. DS means the restaurant is clean and tidy.

But those aren't intimate neeeds. Its not what you go to the restaurant for.

When your wife says 'take the ice cream off the table for now, so I can eat dinner first', she's trying to get to dessert the right way.

You said she won't let you meet needs with dates, but she has told you that's exactly what she wants you to do. YOU are refusing HER by insisting on sex first.

She is not willing to sully your sex life together (btw its phrased 'we have' sex, not 'I get' sex) by allowing herself to be used as a sex doll while unenthusiastic. However she is willing to let you lead her to enthusiasm. That's POJA. She is willing to do the recovery work.

Meantme you are saying... I want, I deserve, I don't care about you or your wants YOU OWE ME SEX. That's lovebusting.

Why are you trying to get her to abandon POJA and then blaming the lack of recovery effort on her!

Dr H recommends separating from a spouse who refuses to POJA as its abusive.

Control your Taker. He's shouting and making ugly demands.



Then do it with her as per her suggestion you take the demands off the table and put UA time on instead to RECOVER.

What about the Porn use? Does she want you to stop it?

I don't use porn. I am sure she could give a [censored] as long as I am leaving her alone though.

I also have not been demanding sex. I had been asking for it.

I would do my best to control my disappointment when she said no, but apparently she still feels pressured.

I have been doing my best to meet her needs of affection and conversation and domestic duties but was just getting disappointed that I was not seeing effort from her to meet my needs.

She is making effort to desire you. She foresees desiring you.



If she didn't desire you for dessert, she wouldnt have said 'let's have dinner before desert'



That simply isn't true.



Demand she violate POJA with promise of bribe/threat of consequences



You demanded sex be kept on the table. You refused to take it off the table.


Because you have refused her request and demanded she continue to meet your need for SF.



You are demanding she forgo her need for affection. Asking her to provide you with on demand sex and ignoring her req for pressure to be removed is unaffectionate.

You should be overjoyed that she is refusing mechanical, unfeeling sex.

She is using MB to work up a true passion.

One thing confuses me.

You said she won't agree to UA time. (Which made me class her as a wayward in Plan A)

But she asked if you could both concentrate on meeting other needs first.

According to plans, you should convey that you expect her to meet your SF need and that you will not settle for unmet needs. However it can wait until she's enthusiastic and will NOT be a 'reward' for laundry!

If you took SF demand off table, would she be up for UA time.

That is something you should express a demand for bc its a non negotiable EP.

Would you benefit from the coaching centre, I am concerned you are getting the plans mixed up.

Dr H says the slightest deviation in the plans leads to failure.

Dr H on Selfish Demands:


Sleeping on the couch in the hope it hurts her, saying you won't meet her needs in return, Ill bet there's been ridicule and angry outburts too.

What you are saying to her is 'put out or things get unpleasant'

I classed her withdrawal as wayward and it could be..

But equally withdrawal is caused by ongoing selfish demands.

You're missing out in the best part of marriage... Sweet passionate love making. Getting sex is purely physical. Making tender, sweet love is what married people in love do. It's SO much better than just getting sex. But getting to that place doesn't start with demanding sex, it starts with the little things (love bank deposits) throughout the day. Wouldn't you rather your wife desire you? Stop behaving like a teensge boy and start being manly in wooing your wife. Once you've had the real thing, getting sex is nothing. MB gives you a specific plan to restore romance and over the top lovemaking, but it takes work and time. What do you want?

Exactly.

What part of pouting and sleeping on the couch is meeting a need for affection?

You say you wont even sleep near her until she submits to sex.

You should be in that bed, reassuring her her feelings are important to you, holding her close and meeting a NON SEXUAL need for affection.

Have you read Dr H's advice on meeting affection?

You are telling her directly that she is only important as a sexual outlet for your needs. You tell her you will make life in the home intolerable until she puts out.

I find it highly disturbing that you are even capable of having sex with a woman who clearly wants to say no. If you dont use porn, where did you get the idea that it's ok to do this?

If she submits to demands she perform solely for your pleasure under pressure, its sexual abuse and her feelings for you will plummet. She will end up hating you because you are supposed to protect her from sexual abuse, not subject her to it.

I think she is doing an excellent job of trying to implement POJA in the face of your demands.

How can you have been doing MB so long without understanding what an SD is?

Could you get marriage coaching from Steve Harley or the counselling centre, I dont think you have ever tried MB in your marriage.

Blaze, can you tell us what your other four needs are please?

Is she willing to meet those in the meantime? Is she enthusiastic?

Is she willing to work with you until she becomes enthusiastic?

This will tell you a lot about her true attitude.

Can she do anything (aside from having unwilling sex) to make you feel less rejected over SF? (I know that being rejected, particularly after an A is horrible) Are you willing to stop asking her for a while?

I think you are all missing the point that I have been doing my best to meet her other needs all along and we had been having SF. I also think you mischaracterizing my need for SF as a biological libido driven thing, it's not. I want to be closer to my wife, I want her to share her body and soul. It's an emotional thing for me, its not that I'm horny.

I started sleeping on the couch because I was so hurt about how she was talking about the affair and how it was such a relief to her to want sex again while at the same time telling me how awful it is to have sex with me. It was a trigger that brought back the pain of the affair.

We went through a long period where sex was off the table, and I was meeting her needs as best I could. During this time we did have counselling with Steve. She knew the POJA and she eventually agreed to have sex again. I think the problem became that I wanted it too much and was in her words obsessed with it. I was competing with the sex she had with the other man, I wanted it to be better.

IMO it is still the comparison of our relationship to the affair, that she desires the other man and not me, that is the main problem for her.

My comment about cleaning the house and having SF afterwards comes from Harley article about good habit formation:

Also I felt I had been following the advice in his article "How can a husband receive the sex
he needs in marriage?":
I was getting frustrated that SF was still getting worse and not better and when I made my complaint instead of her trying to make it better she tells me how great her affair was and how she wants to take it off the table. I have told her I am fine with that for now and I guess I have to try even harder to meet her other EN and avoid LB while getting nothing in return just to get her to the point to where she is in love with me and still giving nothing in return.

Really I think she always just takes me for granted even when she is in love with me. I feel she demands unconditional love from me. I feel like a doormat.

As far as her willingness to meet my other needs she meets the need of physical attractiveness and domestic support although not specifically from any special effort to do so. I ask for more admiration and affection and she fails to provide those too.

OK but no one was criticising your desire to be sexually intimate with your wife. That is natural and right whether it stems from physical or emotional causes. The criticism was in your repeated requests when she was unwilling. It�s crazy. What did you hope to achieve by that? It is wrong towards a loving wife, so its nuts to think a wayward would put up with it.

If she has told you you had been having sex when she was unwilling (however of course, never believe a wayward absolutely) then its good she told you so you could fix that very serious problem.

SDs are a no-no regardless of your hurt, pain and betrayal. That�s what Plan B is for, so the BS does not give in to love busters in reaction to their own pain. I don�t think love busters is what you want to be doing, is it?

When Dr H mentions motivational stuff about linking domestic support and sex in your mind, it was for you to consider in your own bid to become enthusiastic. It shouldn�t have been used as a tool in which to lecture your wife about giving in to you. You simply escalated your selfish demand by doing that.

What plan are you in? You aren�t in recovery if she�s dreaming about OM and you aren�t Plan Aing her.

Having no plan is a plan to fail. What do you want to achieve? Decide and do it.

Yes, basically that is what has happened, She has revealed that she has been agreeing to sex unenthusiastically. I have not then demanded it as you say I have, I have agreed to take it off the table and work on other things. I did get hurt and love bust but that was because of the trigger of her bringing up "what a relief it was to want sex" while in her affair.

I guess I don't know what plan I am in and I think it all stems from me letting her back to soon and not insisting that we stick to a plan after the affair. I guess I was warned earlier in the thread....She is still reluctant to work the plan so I guess that makes me in plan A even though there is no ongoing affair...I don't know. Her reluctance has caused stagnation is where we are at.

The motivational stuff about DS and SF I just casually mentioned, I was not demanding that if she wants the house clean she needs to put out, at least I didn't mean it to come across that way. I thought it as more of a mutual if we meet each others needs it becomes easier. Instead we are stuck in the unconditional love thing where I have to meet her needs while mine go unmet.

If I bring up her reluctance to meet my needs she just gets defensive and does a woe is me, I am a failure as a wife please feel sorry for me because I got this job and 6 kids and sorry if I can't be the perfect wife too.

She has agreed to do the marriage builders online program, which is a huge step I think. She has been unwilling to read books or stick to the marriage builders plan previously. She is still arguing against UA though, I tried suggestions to get her to turn the TV off last night and she refused. I avoided making it a demand so don't worry. I talked to the coach today and she said to make sure we are spending 15 hours UA so I emailed the wife and mentioned this is what the coach said and linked to the basic concept of UA and she got defensive about it because of the excuses she had made the night before.

Well what do you want to do?

Do you have the stamina to Plan A without lovebusting? Everybody reaches the point where they've had enough and they have to go dark. If I had done much time Plan Aing I would probably have killed my WH.

Plan A is not unconditional love tho. You're encouraged to set high conditions and tell them so often.

When it comes to reluctance to meet needs, just state, don't persuade, that you will need certain things to be attempted or worked towards or you are free to go.
Don't listen to response and encourage any efforts to try. Say its up to her.

They have to know you're gone unless they get on board sometime. While threatening to leave sounds like a SD Dr H says that when it comes to recovery conditions you are allowed to demand it for your sanity and health.

Feel free to tell her when she's beimg hurtful. That's a fact not a LB. Just make sure you're calm, kind and unflappable when you do.

Blaze, quick Q. You were there and I wasn't. Could you give me your opinion?

Was WW deliberately pushing your buttons about sex to get you to lovebust about sex? Think carefully.

If she was I think her aim might be to push you into a 'let's be friends' corner.

She says she has no sexual feelings for you (if she said 'yet' good but bad if not) and asked you to take it off the table.

This would be a nifty catch 22. If you agree, you're platonic friends as in every waywards dream, if you don't you SD her in a way that allows her to demonise you and push you away.


Just be aware that Plan A is all about talking about the future. You don't allow yourself to be painted as a friend and you make it clear she loses you entirely if she does not want to do the work to create a romantic and passionate marriage.

Take care of yourself too, you sound beat.

I don't think she was deliberately pushing my buttons.

Assuming she continues to resist it seems like everything is pointing to that I need to use the threat of leaving in order to get her on board with the marriage builders program. We will see how it goes once the work starts in the program. I guess we need a real heart to heart about whether or not she is going to commit to this plan. We can't keep ignoring UA.

When you presented her with the list of conditions to "keep you in the marriage" did you keep them?

Why not just re-present them and tell her the 'trial period' where she gets to figure stuff out has to end some time.

Its not the 'threat of leaving', is it? Its a fact that you won't put up with no recovery or be her 'divorce buddy' holding hands and singin kumbaya.

Been watching the online seminar.

Regarding the 3 states of mind in marriage I sort of realized that I think after the first affair I was in the state of intimacy while she was in withdrawal. This made it easy for me to keep pouring on the love units to get us out of that rut.

This time I have gone in to the state of conflict while she is in withdrawal. This has made it impossible to get out of this rut. It makes me mad that she is in withdrawal again as I feel she has no right to be.

She is reluctantly going along with the program which so far is trying to watch the online seminar. Still having issues getting her to commit to at least 15 hours UA, that we work opposite shifts makes it really hard and the television is getting in the way.

Basically she is not really wanting Affection or Conversation either according to her questionnaire.

She is still in withdrawal in my opinion. She still rewrites history in a negative light. She still has emotional barriers up. She has been complaining of love busters.

I guess all I can do is try to cut down on love busters. It's hard because I am pissed off about this whole situation....how can she be the one that doesn't love me after what she has done to me? I guess it's my taker, it says she should be thanking her stars I haven't left and making me feel appreciated and loved instead of like a piece of dirt. How am I supposed to muster the strength to love some one who treats me like a piece of dirt and craps on our entire history together?

You don't.

Youre talking about withdrawal and conflict but that's an unnecessary detour.

She's either wayward and your Plan Aing her or she's fully repentant and making amends.

Which is it?

If she's wayward, you can't love her. Just can't! You Plan A to destroy the alien who bodysnatched your wife. It isnt love. Its a tactic to free your love.

If she's repentant then she isn't hurting you, or as you put it someone who 'craps on your life'. Its easy to love someone who comes defenseless and honest, to heal you at her own expense. If she is repentant, that is.

Which is she?

Well I don't consider her repentant, it doesn't seem to me that she is sorry she had the fair or concerned about the pain it has caused me. Her concern is simply her own feelings, not mine. She is not hurting me intentionally but rather with her honesty.

Soooo...........

That means what?

And your reaction is what?

You need to know which stage of the Plans you're in.

You can't just hang about and hope.

Having no plan is a plan to fail.

She sounds typically wayward and foggy to me, which requires Plan A.

Lovebusting won't help with that.

That's like getting an overdraft warning from the bank and going on a spending spree.

I guess it means I am in Plan A

I think that sucks. It pretty much means my emotional needs are not going to be met until I can defog her.

I have been trying to avoid LB and meet EN as best I can, I guess I just have to try harder.

I think it will help if you understand that you are in Plan A and stop expecting her to act like a wife in recovery. That expectation is hurtful and dissuades you from doing what needs to be done.

Remember NO EXPECTATIONS. However Plan A is not plan doormat. You can tell her often (cheerfully and calmly) that you want a marriage where your needs are met too and she is on board properly.You are willing to wait a while but eventually that's what you'll need.

You're at war in Plan A. The sulky alien you see stole your real wife and needs to be gunned down with MB ammo.

Then set a deadline on your Plan A. Six months maximum till you Plan B her. The deadline should also keep you calm. Chin up!

As they said in the Blitz, Keep Calm and Carry On!

blaze, I am a mom of twins and empathize with both you and you wife in your situation. It is not easy to care for young twins, and then another new baby (!) and get any sleep, let alone leisure time or time with your spouse.

My H and I worked opposite schedules for 15 years; we have 5 children, and we needed to earn income, and any free time we each had was spent independently of eachother. He wanted time with me then, and I could not be bothered to give it to him, because I was so spent by the children, and my work; so we pursued independent interests for many years.

I know it is hard to want any SF or UA time when small children need constant love and care. You sound as frustrated as my H was 6-7 years ago about wanting SF and UA and having a reluctant spouse.

It is a special challenge to have many young children, especially toddler twins. During that time in our marriage we had SF maybe 6-8 times a year.

Can you get a babysitter, go out with her and romance her?

Some of your previous posts have red flags all over: Your wife telling you she has no needs for affection or conversation - begs the question - she might be getting those needs met somewhere else. It doesn't sound to me as though she has all of her cards on the table. Have you confronted her most recent OM? Do you have access to all her phone and computer activity?I would put a digital voice recorder in her car. Do NOT tell her you are doing this! Just to be sure you are not fighting an active affair in your Plan A. You need to know what you're dealing with. Her behavior and reluctance sound foggy.

I think it is also very important that you hire a reliable babysitter a least once a week to take your wife out and court her and date her ( and NOT talk MB, affairs, kids, or work) so you can show her how much you love her as a woman and not just as a mom to take care of house and kids (not that you don't pull your weight too!)

BTW I have also (when the twins were small) made the mistake of implying to my H that more housework would mean more SF.(jokingly but not well-received) I think my H was offended by that, especially in the long-term when someone else came along and wanted him just for him and nothing in return. In his mind it cheapened his preception of my wanting SF with him as something intimate and sacred and free of worldly demands, thus making a subsequent alternative paramour more attractive than reality would warrant. There will always be willing AP in the world who will prey on a doubtful spouse in times of too much domestic and parental responsibility. Take care of your wife and cherish her.

Indiegirl, you are an awesome coach here! Your perspective on my thread last fall was a great boost to me in helping me do what I needed to.

I agree, IndieGirl is doing a great job of coaching, it really leaves little to be added.

I wish these spouses could understand with OP comes along, it's comparing apples to oranges, after all, they come without the kids, financial issues, affair baggage, etc. and can afford to be all sweet and wonderful, while in the marriage there's all this other stuff to deal with! Kind of unfair footing! But when they begin affair and move in together and have the everyday problems like financial problems, work, cleaning house, visitation, etc. to deal with, that's when the affair crumbles because what once looked rosy can't hold muster when it comes to the demands of real life.

I see the red flags too, it's been almost a year of no contact to the best of my snooping abilities and there are still emotional barriers up. I have listened in while she is alone in the car with her cell phone which I have spyware on and haven't been able to find anything. I also have been keeping tabs on her GPS location with the spyware and she hasn't been lying or seeing him. I have a keylogger on our home computer and have found nothing there either.

I am pretty sure she doesn't have a secret second cell phone or I would have caught it by now. She could be calling him from a work phone or emailing him from a work computer....I can't think of a way I could catch her if she was though. I did become suspicious a couple of months ago....I emailed the OM just to see what would happen. I got no reply from him but my wife did coincidentally check my sent messages and confronted me about the email. She has not really been snooping on me normally as far as I can tell, but she just happened to catch this? I suspect he told her I emailed him with a secret email she has at work but I have no way to prove it.

Of course it could just be that I have been lovebusting more than I realize, that my taker has been in control and demanding she meet my needs as part of our recovery. I am trying to buckle down even harder and avoid lovebusters and hoping that I will start to see those barriers come down. I am still just very frustrated that it has been so long and she still doesn't want affection and can't stand the thought of sex.

We are almost to the point of our first assignment...scheduling 15 hours for UA, I hope that goes well.

Did you do a polygraph? That sounds very coincidental that she caught that email out. If she is still in contact with him through work means, a simple polygraph would discover that.

Is there a way she can make her work systems transparent to you or change jobs? I imagine she would be unwilling while still foggy, but is it possible?

What about spyware on her phone? I think there is a very nifty device I read about a while back that let you listen to whats happeneing herever the phone is. Like a portable VAR. So youd be able to listen in on her workday. Not sure if anyone knows about that on Operation Investigate.

As for the lovebusting thing. Yes it is maddening, and very frustrating how cold she is being. But if there is still some wayward booze in her hand, or even just triggers of old booze, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for her to respond to you. Just physically impossible.

Do you think she may have installed some spyware of her own?

I have not done a polygraph. How much does that usually cost?

I don't think there is a way she could make her work systems transparent to me. It seems any job would have a phone or computer she would be able to use. No way she would change jobs, she won't even consider changing shifts.

I have used spyware to turn her phone in to a VAR. I caught a bunch while the affair was ongoing, but nothing since. I have listened while she is at work and while she is driving in the car. She has come up clean.

If it wasn't for the symptoms I would be convinced there was no contact, the email is the only thing that raised my suspicions. I tend to think the contrast effect could also be in play....she has gone from a hot passionate care free affair back to the old dog with overbearing domestic duties. She is just not in to me as much as she was in to him no matter what needs I meet. She has told me it was the best sex she has ever had and that the affair was more about the OM than about our marriage. She has also said she still cares for him and that she misses the sex (which also means she misses him I guess).

She may be getting triggered in other ways, such as looking up his FB page etc while at work. Does she have FB? That would keep the feelings alive. She may also have kept gifts, triggers, mementoes etc.

You have nothing to lose by asking her to take a polygraph. You also have nothing to lose by asking her if she has kept any gifts, letters or things that remind her of him. Or whether she checks up on him. Then insist all triggers go. (You can make demands when it comes to NC and triggers - just tell her calmly you expect her to do it freely of her own will because you will not stay in an unromantic marriage)

I have seen some mention on here of people who gave their work computer accounts to their spouses. Ones where you get a password to log in and work from home, except the BH gets the password too so he can check on it whenever he likes. (I can't remember which threads though! Anyone help me out?) Ive also seen some mention where the WS tells their boss about the A and asks for sites to blocked or for a keylogger to be installed where the work is not confidential.

He is blocked from her Facebook and I have access to her Facebook account.

I doubt she has any gifts or letters or things.

I may consider a polygraph but right now am leaning against it.

You can still see people on FB even when they've blocked you. She just needs another account or to google him to see his public view page. Plus he can unblock her at any time.

She is listing domestic support as her #1 emotional need. Is she really going to fall in love with the man who does the most chores? I find it hard to believe.

I figured meeting the needs her lover met was what was needed. Instead it's meet the needs I have been meeting only better? The needs her lover met are at the bottom of the list it seems, she doesn't want that from me.

It makes me think the affair was more just a fantasy of being single and child free then it was about me not meeting her needs like affection, conversation, or SF (oh yeah and the other need was for an attractive spouse, apparently she isn't happy with the size of my belly even though she is over weight herself).

Her unhappiness just seems to be about the stress of her life...6 kids and a 36 hour graveyard work week. She associates that with me. I think she is just unhappy in general, it's not necessarily that she's unhappy with me. I don't see how we can improve her situation. Since we can't fix that it seems we can't fix our marriage to me. She is reluctant to even try. It's incredibly frustrating. Why can't she just honor her promise to love me? Instead she has stopped loving me which makes me miserable and it's because of circumstances that she chooses and that are beyond my control.

Well, I'd be pretty impressed by a domestic god, but it is wise to be sceptical and not take the word of a wayward. I'd respond to her request with an 'of course dear!' And do a bit more (shows you've listened and therefore meets the affection need) but make sure you meet more intimate needs too.

The best guide to her needs is probably the things that got a noticeable reaction in the past.

Reluctance to try is a favourite wayward technique. Its usually just a bluff

They paint a picture where they claim it impossible they can ever be happy with you...and no they don't have any ideas as to how you could help them be happier. They ask you to accept a life of misery.

Be a broken record. Say you will do whatever you can to make her happy, for a set amount of time, but you will not stay in an unromantic relationship.

Say constantly: Well what can I DO to help make you happier?

If she says, 'nothing' say, well the only suggestion I have is xxx so I will do that if you have no ideas. (And do it) Then add: I won't be around forever if you remain unhappy and unhelpful with me, I find it very hurtful'.

Very sound advice.

Are you reacting visibly negative when you don't get the response you want from her? Try to remember to stick to the plan and don't be ruffled by what she says/does. If you seem like a happy pleasant person she will be more drawn to you. I know that's hard to do under the circumstances because she is constantly triggering you with her responses to you but you have to try and ignore it and keep your goal in mind, try to see her that way, as the spouse you know she CAN be, even though she's not acting it.

Since we are not having sex currently I decided to bring up an issue. She has expressed her preference to use condoms because she doesn't like feeling messy she says. This is a problem for me because I am Catholic and it is against my religion. After the affair I was desperate to do anything to please her and so went along with condom usage while expressing that it was a problem for me and that I couldn't do it long term.

We had never used condoms with rare exception in our entire 12 years together, and now she is making this a huge issue which I don't understand. She basically says she didn't sign up for my religion and she is not going to be forced to do something and if it's a problem for me we can just not have sex ever again. In the past she was always very understanding and accommodating of my religion, but not anymore I guess. My position is that for me this is a moral dilemma and she should be understanding, for her it is merely a preference. She says she used condoms during her affair. I have had some one suggest to me this is just a ruse and that she may have contracted an STD that she doesn't want to reveal but I have a hard time believing that.

This basically turned in to an argument so I don't know what to do? She is adamant in her position and there are hurt feelings on both sides.

Why do you have a hard time believing that? Sounds plausible.



Dont expect anything in Plan A. Dont argue in Plan A. Just make your point about not putting up with it forever and drop it.

When a partner has an affair, they should be tested for STDs before you resume SF. Since you've already resumed SF, it's important you both be tested.

I think it's a ruse to once again avoid sex, and it doesn't sound like she's interested in doing her part to work on the marriage. She just doesn't seem remorseful or invested in the relationship. Have you brought this up with Dr. Harley?

If AS is one of her top EN what about working out together? Lots of deposits in her LB.

Also since you're doing the online don't you have access to Dr. H?

What about asking him?

I guess I should probably bring up the STD thing. I got tested after I found out about the affair but we had only had sex one time once the affair started. Won't she get mad if I bring this up though, I hate to bring up the affair again and make LB withdrawals.

I am trying not to get ahead of myself with the online program. Right now we are working on trying to schedule our 15 hours together and this first week the most we could find in our schedule was 11 hours. Next Dr. Harley suggested we work on love busters.....I don't see how I am doing SD, AO, or DJ but apparently she says these are a big problem but it's all related to when we were having sex. She felt I was demanding it even though I felt I was asking for it. We had agreed to try to meet each others needs when we signed the marital recovery agreement. Apparently when she said no and I would want to ask why it then became a demand. When she says no there can be no negotiation and she shouldn't have to offer a reason according to her. I had the one angry outburst I described earlier in this thread. Since we are not having sex anymore I don't really see anything that can be construed as SD, AO, of DJ.

Blaze28,

The fact of the matter is that HPV, a family of SDT viruses, can cause cervical, vaginal, penile, anal, oral, head and throat cancers. So SDT is no longer curable like years ago when Penicillin was a panacea. This is not a love buster this is your life.

This is from the web, but is typical of the medical study results we have been seeing lately.

In fact, a 2004 study of 6,000 anal cancer patients (the majority of whom were women) found that 73 percent of the patients tested positive for the strain HPV-16, one of the strain

Now I will grant that this study was likely correlational, and other unknown factors may be the cause, but the evidence is very strong.

God Bless
Gamma

That isnt POJA, as you know. Would she sit down and go through the POJA steps with you, so she can learn them properly?

I would pitch it to her first as 'practice for me to help listen you, better Sweetie'. Try it first with a less sensitive issue than sex, purely for 'training' purposes.

Put it to her that you want the practice for yourself so you can learn how to never make a decision again without her approval.

Then use the steps to solve a fairly easy problem. Hopefully something that bugs her so she has a positive experience of POJA.

Praise her extravagantly if you can get hrr do it. I don't see you having much success POJAing with her from a 'recovery' standpoint, but it's excellent Plan Aing becuase you show her that 'you are the spouse any reasonable person would want' which is the core of Plan A - modelling the behaviour you want to see. You show you are willing to POJA even if she is not.



Hmmm. When youre dealing with someone who won't POJA or commit to recovery, you're not really doing the online program are you? You're Plan Aing. I think it's an excellent way to Plan A, because she's allowing you to meet her needs and win her around, even though she isnt willing to meet your needs or go all in to recovery.

Could someone who has experience of the different MB counselling options chime in here?

Is Blaze better contiuing as he is with the online programme or is Steve Harley/Jennifer Chalmers a better bet with a reluctant spouse, as I think I have heard people say.



Bringing up a reasonable request, such as STD testing after her affair(as long as it is genuinely phrased as a request and done so calmly, cheerfully and safely) is not a lovebuster, though is it?

While she may get mad, her reaction to a reasonable request is her responsibility. Of course you would tell her that while you require it to feel safe, it is entirely her decision to choose whether she wants to make you feel safe.

While Plan Aing you have to be reasonable, forthright and completely unswerved by the crazy reactions of a wayward. Stick to your plan and concentrate on your behaviours. Dont worry too much about hers.

Ok, she has had an STD test and is clean.

I am frustrated because even though I have been making the effort it doesn't seem as any progress is being made. I guess I am supposed to have no expectations. Last night we went out and during our conversation we started talking about our relationship. She made it clear she is still not happy and I said she still has emotional walls up. It sort of ruined our evening. I guess the topic of the relationship should be avoided and I should make my focus having a good time together. She said some hurtful things about maybe it just being me that makes her unhappy and that she could possibly be happy with someone else. She said she can't imagine things changing and that she doesn't know if she can ever meet my need for sex again.

I don't understand, I have been doing everything I can and I am blown away by how so unhappy she still is. I asked her to really think if it is just me that she is unhappy with or is it everything else with her life. She never really answered but I told her that I can change if I am the problem. If its just her life than I don't know that we can find a solution and I am made to suffer in the mean time with a wife who doesn't love me, isn't happy, and won't have sex with me. None of this seems fair.

Blaze you really need to find a set script and stick to it.

You're letting her threaten you with her sulky stance that is designed to put you off your game.

Remeber she is NOT your ally. She doesn't want a safe romantic marriage. She will throw a lot of crap your way to stop you achieving that. She wants you to only meet certain needs.

A set script looks something like this

You see how she played you, don't you?

She doesn't tell you what you are doing wrong (because there is no real problem)

So you offer to guess 'if' you are the problem.

If she can't communicate simple sentences, its not your job to criticise yourself FOR her.

Just stick to a script. You can't really talk to waywards, you have to drum soundbites into them.

Be a broken record.

I don't understand why you haven't Plan A'd and then gone into Plan B. She doesn't seem remorseful, sincere, or making the required effort and you are getting resentful. What I see happening is "Plan C" which is doomed to fail. Have you got a Plan B written and ready? Start doing a very short Plan A and then go to Plan B.

Blaze,
Aren't you doing the online program? So what does your coach say?

Apparently I am still severely Love Busting from her perspective. I guess this happens when I tell her how I feel and talk about the relationship and tell her things are going to have to change and how I am frustrated with her lack of effort. She says I try to tell her how she feels which I guess is a DJ.

We sort of identified the main things that got us to this point, the things I did that destroyed her love for me. I apologized for them and made a commitment to her to avoid making those mistakes.

Our coach has said to back off on trying to get her doing the lessons because it will be perceived as a demand and to leave the encouragement to them. They also encourage me to do everything I can to make our time together enjoyable and to completely eliminate love busters and reminded me that I can only focus on my own behavior and to work on changing that.

Tell us exactly what you're saying when you tell her. So we can give you suggestions on how to say it.

You need to listen to your coach!!

I told her that I felt her emotional walls were up, that she wasn't trying, and that I felt she was still in a state of withdrawal.

I told her that we shouldn't give up and that this will take work, that it's easy to fall out of love but harder to fall back in love.

I told her that I grew up with married parents and all my friends parents were married and that seems normal to me and perhaps because she grew up in a twice over divorced family that she was more apt to give up and look for something better. I told her if we didn't make this work there was chance she could bounce from man to man like her mother has ( 4 men I know of including my wifes father).

I told her that she would eventually have to learn to enjoy sex with me again and that our family WAS at stake...I was referencing an earlier email of hers about this subject where she said this was why she didn't enjoy sex because she felt she had no choice because she felt the family was at stake. This was part of the point I was making to her that working on this marriage is important because the family is at stake....how can she be so unmotivated to change or work at this...the stakes ARE high.

You're trying to educate her... STOP IT.

That would annoy anyone.

You can only choose your own boundaries, what you will and won't expect and how long you will stick around. You can't teach her/tell her what her boundaries should be. You can't tell her why she's doing it. She's a grown up. She knows why.

She has free will. She can quit the marriage if she wants, she can be a fool if she wants.

But she needs to know there are consequences.

Listen to your coach!

She doesn't have to do anything!
Your saying so is a demand.

But neither do you have to stick around and accept that. Her saying you do is also a demand.

Phrase things like: 'No, I will need you to be enthusiastic and think of ways I can help you to be. I will not be in a sexless marriage forever.

I agree with IG. No wonder your WW felt like you said some DJ'S because you did.

So how are you going to say things without DJ's?
Listen to this radio clip.
Radio clip on DJ's

Here's some more good radio clips.
Radio clip on stopping DJ
Segment #2

Stop trying to analyze her and focus on being enjoyable to be around.

She was talking to me about getting divorced but still living together and raising the kids together. In her mind this is a win win situation.

I told her no, that we were going to have a romantic relationship or she was going to lose me and I wasn't going to be her friend. She says this is immature of me and wishes I could take emotions out of it and see the wisdom of this situation. She doesn't want to divorce because she doesn't want to hurt the kids and it would be difficult on our finances.

She feels that I making a demand and threatening her with punishment. Should I have not responded in this way?

I was also wondering if I should make sure my kids are aware of what is going on. I wouldn't want them to be blindsided if we were to seperate or divorce and from their perspective everything is just fine right now.

You didn't threaten her at all. You responded exactly how you should--you don't WANT to be her friend if you divorce, and you are NOT immature for not wanting to give such a horrible example to your kids.

And on getting divorced and living together--I bet she would expect to be able to cat around but you shouldn't do it, right? That's exactly the fantasy a wayward wants. They want to cheat and have you, never cheating, always at home, pining away.

How did you say it to her? I think you telling her that you will not "remain friends" if you get divorced is not wrong as long as you aren't screaming it and say it very calmly. You do need to make it clear you will not remain friends for the sake of the children. The best thing for the children is to have loving parents in the same home with a very loving marriage.

Ask her this. Why can't we create a M we both enjoy, being in love again is better than seperation or a D?

No your response was fine, she can't have her cake and eat it too.

She can't demand that you stick around as the celibate housemate that's absurd.

You're q right to say you won't be friends after the D. That's YOUR (very sane) decision.

Tell her she is free to make her decisions and you are free to make yours. If she doesn't choose a romantic relationship with you, you are within your rights to get a new life and to avoid the pain of continued contact with her.

There's a vast difference between telling her she 'should' do something and lecturing her about the consequences of the wrong decision regarding the family (selfish demand)

And telling her she is free to choose and allowing her to see the consequences of her decision on her own (finances and loss of family) - rather than an SD this is simply a healthy boundary of how you will allow people to treat you.

She then can't turn to you and demand you give up your chance of a life and forever dance to her tune.

If she doesn't like the choices of where she's headed,tough. she will have to try harder at making her marriage work.

Don't tell her she's making SDs or try to educate her though. Just stick to slogans and repeat them like a broken record.

Of course its emotional. You're my wife and I love you passionately.

You will never be just a friend to me.

I only talk marriage, I do not talk divorce.

Yes it is immature to allow an affair to destroy a marriage.

I will fight for this marriage.

I will fight for you.

I could never be near you without wanting to hold you

You are my wife and I love you the way a man loves a woman.

Etc.

Things seem worse than ever right now. Her emotional barriers are higher than they have ever been and she is cold to me.

I am resolved to wait this out and continue to be the best husband I can be and to convince her to give this relationship a chance.

Blaze in Plan A, its war. Don't expect sweetness. I am glad to hear your resolve.

Set your plan A deadline, its a total of six months for men. How long has it been already?

Remember you are giving HER a chance to convince you, but you have a deadline. Fill her lovebank in a calculating way with no expectation of getting yours filled.

What does your marriage coach think of the turn of events?

How have you been doing eliminating the SDs and instead telling her its her choice?

What has your coach said?

What are you doing to fix your DJ's and SD'S?
What are you doing to clean up your side of the street?

Blaze, how are you doing? I hope you have drawn a hard line about not staying in an unromantic marriage forever, for your own sake.

Don't forget (If you are still in plan A and not hurting yourself) to be spontaneous with her and fun to be around. You have been there for her during her weakest moments in her life. You deserve to be loved and treated well. She needs to know you are cognizant of your strengths.

So I don't think I was able to do Plan A well.

I think I was just in too much pain from the affair and that this was the second major one and that I did not understand how my failures as a husband led to it.

I basically backed off and joined her in emotional divorce.

My mental illness flared up again, nothing major, but afterwards I felt she was being downright hostile towards me. An email conversation about what was going on turned in to her telling me she is going to file for divorce.

I am disappointed but her prolonged state of emotional divorce and total lack of concern for the health of our marriage and disinterest in trying to make it better really wore me down to the point I do not have any romantic feelings of love toward her.

I simply do not want a divorce because I feel we get along fine and had the goal of repairing the marriage together that we could accomplish it and I feel as if our children are going to suffer needlessly. I am emotionally divorced now as well and am pretty much ready to accept that and to stay together in that state. Our loveless marriage I do not feel is harming our kids in anyway and definitely feel strongly that a divorce will be much more harmful. I don't think she is going to go for it.

I feel like she is going to file and we are going to fight and someone is going to lose.........

I would still like to save the marriage if possible even though I do not love her but I doubt it is even possible and don't even know how to go about it. My strategy for now is to delay her filing as long as possible and most likely to fight her if she does and hope that in the mean time she may change her mind or at least allow us to live together and co-parent. I don't want to lose my kids for half the time or more or to lose a bunch of money in a divorce.

I think it is pretty clear the reason she has changed her tune on divorce is that now she is convinced she can afford the house on her own....the house I bought with her after her most recent affair in the hopes that it would improve the marriage. Now she wants to take it and force me to leave.....

It is very possible. You have to do some things you don't feel like doing. You have to make massive love bank deposits every day even though you don't feel like doing it. And you have to STOP everything that is a love buster, even though you feel like doing those things anyway. Most men can do this.

You'll have to stop talking about how much you don't love her - that doesn't prevent you from doing what needs to be done to save your marriage, but if you dwell on it it will distract you. That will have to change later, after she is in love with you. You will have to be the pump primer to get the marriage going again.

TAKE YOUR WIFE OUT ON MULTIPLE DATES EACH WEEK.

Start listening to the Marriage Builders Radio show daily.

Post here about any fights the two of you have so that you can get feedback about the love busters you are engaging in and learn to eliminate them.

Do I read correctly that you were in the MB online program? Have you contacted your coach? Why don't you post to Dr. Harley?

Well we did try the online program. She agreed to do it but when it came down to it she was not willing to make any changes or put any effort in to it and she resented me and the program for trying to change her or make her do anything. She basically blew it off and the coaches and basically is anti-marriage builders now at this point. I have also posted to dr. harley a few times as well (under a different name)....I am thinking of emailing mbradio too.

I think I just put too much pressure on her too soon after the latest affair to try to recover and I also told her I needed her help this time. She just simply does not take the marriage seriously and it has not importance to her.

In the state we are now she basically is wielding the threat of divorce as a whip, anything that rocks her boat she threatens to crack it. She does not want me discussing potential contentious issues of a future divorce and she doesn't want me to act as if there is any glimmer of hope for our marriage.

She works an opposite schedule to me that has caused problems but she simply refuses to change it. Even if we wanted to devote time to each other for undivided attention the problem is there is no time and when there is she has a fortress of emotional barriers.

It is all mystifying to me because we get along well, always have, and we hardly fight about anything. I basically always give her what she wants and she rarely complains about much other than asking me to come home early to help her with kids and stuff. I don't work a lot of hours, she is just always tired from her work schedule.

Blaze,

I did not have a chance to read your entire thread, but was your WW and OM1 and OM2 exposed properly?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the impression there were no consequences to any of your WWs affairs.

God Bless
Gamma

It's pretty common for one spouse to be reluctant, and that's exactly the problem the online program was designed to solve. When this is the case, STAY IN TOUCH with Dr. Harley and your coach. You will have to be the one who motivates her and overcomes her reluctance - by becoming a fantastic and irreplaceable husband. You'll need all the help you can get from the coaching program, the radio show, and the forum.

I believe so. Exposure was basically the only way I got those affairs to end.

She didn't want to get a divorce while caught up in adultery because it made her look bad. She didn't want to get a divorce because she thought financially it would be too devastating. Now she thinks she is not in an affair and can afford to take the house on her own and afford it while collecting support from me so she want to go forward with it now.

I am not sure about consequences for her affairs. The consequence for the first affair was that I transformed in to an amazing husband that won her love back. The consequence for the second affair was that I bought a house with her to try to improve the marital situation that led to her affair.

This is the problem that I see, even if I transform in to an amazing husband again that convinces her not to get divorced at the end of that I am still stuck with a wife I do not love who is in love with me. The problem as I see it is simply that she is simply unwilling, even when she is in love with me, to learn to meet my emotional needs on the level needed to spark romantic love. I on the other hand am weary from trying and am perfectly fine for settling for a marriage that is not passionate. She needs passion, I don't. She is incapable/unwilling to make deposits to ignite my passion. It creates a situation where all the responsibility for keeping the marriage together falls on me and my ability to be an amazing husband and loving someone unconditionally by a constant force of will rather than because I love that person.

Maybe I am in the fog now sort of, but I just don't see how I could love her again the way I did before. I almost feel as if it took a consistent effort over a long period of time for her to destroy my romantic love for her. This protects me from being hurt but at the same time makes the unsustainable arrangement of me loving her while feeling unloved almost impossible. I don't think she could ever selflessly perform any type of care that she didn't feel like giving and she is stubborn and selfish and unwilling to change or try new things. I basically feel she is a slave to her emotions and doesn't even understand how you can use your will to change things without your emotions doing the motivating.

If you have access to Dr. Harley on the private forum, why don't you post to him?