Being wayward is a state of mind. Having the sick relationship in her mind still will make it impossible for her to connects with you.

15 hours UA time is the bare minimum for a couple already in love. 15 hours will only MAINTAIN love and prevent love bank overdrafts. If you want to make actual deposits its got to be closer to 20/25. Your coach will talk you through it.

If she's not signed up to UA time she's still wayward and needs to be Plan Ad.

Dr H advises against trying to have UA time in the house near a TV. Can you run errands together? Arrange more outings? What is she passionate about, what are her interests? Can you ask for F&F to support with babysitting?

Without 20+ of intimate Emotional needs meeting ... you will be in this state of limping forever.

Turn off the T.V. for one and here are some suggestions.

Play "Go Fish"
Play "Naked Go Fish"
Play Chess
Read HNHN together
Melt some peanut butter and dip apples for a late night snack
Take a bubble bath together
Give her a massage
Paint her toe nails
Sit on the back patio and talk
Play Wii or Xbox together
Learn a foreign language together
Watch your children sleep while talking

Up your UA time immediately ... life will start looking better.

Well I am trying to get her on board with the idea of getting away from the TV on her nights off but I don't know how well that going to go.

She wants to take SF completely off the table for now which is a big problem for me because it's my #1 emotional need. I know the POJA means no sex with out enthusiastic agreement and apparently when she has been agreeing to it she hasn't been enthusiastic. She says she feels pressured and then violated. She also seems to have a problem with the idea of me meeting her needs if the motivation behind my doing so is just to get SF. This is why she wants to take SF off the table for awhile and just work on meeting needs. She was offended when I told her if I got sex more often after cleaning the house that we would have a cleaner house and accused that of going against marriage builders principles (since I said I have been more likely to blow it off since I was not being rewarded for my efforts).

I am just so frustrated that sex is such an issue for her.

Here we have a rare case of a wayward being right. Plan A is about you meeting her needs unconditionally to de fog her. How is pressurising her to have sex going to do that? You're not in recovery yet. You need to Plan A her.

Plan A is like courting a very reluctant girl who is only OK with being friends 'just yet'. You wouldn't pressure her in that situation would you? This is why Plan A sucks, but it is your best shot long term

And you should never ask for her to meet needs she cannot do enthusiastically. That's a SD and is lovebusting her bank balance.



WHY would you say this!!!!!!!

Offering DS as 'payment' for sex is no diff to offering FS. Both approaches from a man suggest indifference to a womans pleasure as long as his needs are met. Sex with a man who isn't deeply concerned about your pleasure is a very off putting concept to most women.

Plus it wouldn't meet your needs anyway. Her enduring sex and 'putting up with it' so you'll do DS won't put coins in your bank account. It'll increase your resentment. An all around terrible idea.

I think you have this idea that if you can get her between the sheets you can turn her on. Unlikely. Most women need wooing first and sex as desert. Otherwise its no good for them.



That's a horrible thing to say. Apologise. She isn't your reward.



I know it sucks that she destroyed her love bank for you with her affair. However that's the reality and women don't want sex with a man they don't love. That's a GOOD thing, usually.As long as she is willing to have her lb rebuilt, she's doing all she can.



She's dead right. She wants to be in love with you and is trying to give you the directions.

Apologise for demanding sex. Tell her from now on POJA is a LAW in your marriage. Tell her you would instead like the chance to woo her with dates. Tell her you will wait for her to ask you or initiate SF if she needs it.

Then build that LB up immediately.

(Are you using much porn to get through this dry spell? If so, stop. It bugs your wife and is prob the place you got this idea she should be able to want it because you do)

This really sucks, I don't want to plan A I want her to pull her weight and recover together. I told her when she decided to stay that I didn't have the energy to do it again. I plan A'd my butt off after the first affair, I saw where I had failed as a husband and was determined to change it. Even when I won her back she was still selfish and was not meeting my needs and it eventually took it's toll and I had a nervous breakdown. After that she really stepped up and loved me and I thought we were doing fine. She thought we were doing fine. We recommended marriage builders to people and we mutually considered our marriage better than our peers. She would tell me how I always came out ahead when the girls talked about and compared their husbands.

That's why this second, much worse affair was such a blind side. I can't do this again and it's scaring me now because it sounds like it's the only real choice I have. I don't have the energy not the desire to give so much to someone who gives such little back in return. Some one who has hurt me again, only much deeper this time. Maybe my marriage is over because I can't do this alone.

Why do you wish you were in recovery when you are not doing recovery either? Would you demand she 'get over her issues' and fake sexual enjoyment for you in return for vaccuuming if in recovery?

Do you understand the love bank? That selfish demands withdraw love? Do you understand that DEMANDING a wife pleasure you is very wrong?

Even a woman with a full love bank, who has the hots full time for her DH would react badly to a selfish demand for sex.

Her love bank is too low for her to create sexual desire. She can't magic it out of thin air. You're asking her to bake you bread while stealing all her flour.

Most women see sex as the dessert. The sweetest tasting part of the relationship meal, but one which comes at the end of the meal, after other needs are met.

Married women are only allowed to eat in one restaurant. So it better be a good one. While dessert is usually great, it stops being fun when its the only thing you can get, worse when you're being ordered to eat it, while starving for the steak and potatoes of the intimate needs.

FS means the rent gets paid so the restauarnt stays open. DS means the restaurant is clean and tidy.

But those aren't intimate neeeds. Its not what you go to the restaurant for.

When your wife says 'take the ice cream off the table for now, so I can eat dinner first', she's trying to get to dessert the right way.

You said she won't let you meet needs with dates, but she has told you that's exactly what she wants you to do. YOU are refusing HER by insisting on sex first.

She is not willing to sully your sex life together (btw its phrased 'we have' sex, not 'I get' sex) by allowing herself to be used as a sex doll while unenthusiastic. However she is willing to let you lead her to enthusiasm. That's POJA. She is willing to do the recovery work.

Meantme you are saying... I want, I deserve, I don't care about you or your wants YOU OWE ME SEX. That's lovebusting.

Why are you trying to get her to abandon POJA and then blaming the lack of recovery effort on her!

Dr H recommends separating from a spouse who refuses to POJA as its abusive.

Control your Taker. He's shouting and making ugly demands.



Then do it with her as per her suggestion you take the demands off the table and put UA time on instead to RECOVER.

What about the Porn use? Does she want you to stop it?

I don't use porn. I am sure she could give a [censored] as long as I am leaving her alone though.

I also have not been demanding sex. I had been asking for it.

I would do my best to control my disappointment when she said no, but apparently she still feels pressured.

I have been doing my best to meet her needs of affection and conversation and domestic duties but was just getting disappointed that I was not seeing effort from her to meet my needs.

She is making effort to desire you. She foresees desiring you.



If she didn't desire you for dessert, she wouldnt have said 'let's have dinner before desert'



That simply isn't true.



Demand she violate POJA with promise of bribe/threat of consequences



You demanded sex be kept on the table. You refused to take it off the table.


Because you have refused her request and demanded she continue to meet your need for SF.



You are demanding she forgo her need for affection. Asking her to provide you with on demand sex and ignoring her req for pressure to be removed is unaffectionate.

You should be overjoyed that she is refusing mechanical, unfeeling sex.

She is using MB to work up a true passion.

One thing confuses me.

You said she won't agree to UA time. (Which made me class her as a wayward in Plan A)

But she asked if you could both concentrate on meeting other needs first.

According to plans, you should convey that you expect her to meet your SF need and that you will not settle for unmet needs. However it can wait until she's enthusiastic and will NOT be a 'reward' for laundry!

If you took SF demand off table, would she be up for UA time.

That is something you should express a demand for bc its a non negotiable EP.

Would you benefit from the coaching centre, I am concerned you are getting the plans mixed up.

Dr H says the slightest deviation in the plans leads to failure.

Dr H on Selfish Demands:


Sleeping on the couch in the hope it hurts her, saying you won't meet her needs in return, Ill bet there's been ridicule and angry outburts too.

What you are saying to her is 'put out or things get unpleasant'

I classed her withdrawal as wayward and it could be..

But equally withdrawal is caused by ongoing selfish demands.

You're missing out in the best part of marriage... Sweet passionate love making. Getting sex is purely physical. Making tender, sweet love is what married people in love do. It's SO much better than just getting sex. But getting to that place doesn't start with demanding sex, it starts with the little things (love bank deposits) throughout the day. Wouldn't you rather your wife desire you? Stop behaving like a teensge boy and start being manly in wooing your wife. Once you've had the real thing, getting sex is nothing. MB gives you a specific plan to restore romance and over the top lovemaking, but it takes work and time. What do you want?

Exactly.

What part of pouting and sleeping on the couch is meeting a need for affection?

You say you wont even sleep near her until she submits to sex.

You should be in that bed, reassuring her her feelings are important to you, holding her close and meeting a NON SEXUAL need for affection.

Have you read Dr H's advice on meeting affection?

You are telling her directly that she is only important as a sexual outlet for your needs. You tell her you will make life in the home intolerable until she puts out.

I find it highly disturbing that you are even capable of having sex with a woman who clearly wants to say no. If you dont use porn, where did you get the idea that it's ok to do this?

If she submits to demands she perform solely for your pleasure under pressure, its sexual abuse and her feelings for you will plummet. She will end up hating you because you are supposed to protect her from sexual abuse, not subject her to it.

I think she is doing an excellent job of trying to implement POJA in the face of your demands.

How can you have been doing MB so long without understanding what an SD is?

Could you get marriage coaching from Steve Harley or the counselling centre, I dont think you have ever tried MB in your marriage.

Blaze, can you tell us what your other four needs are please?

Is she willing to meet those in the meantime? Is she enthusiastic?

Is she willing to work with you until she becomes enthusiastic?

This will tell you a lot about her true attitude.

Can she do anything (aside from having unwilling sex) to make you feel less rejected over SF? (I know that being rejected, particularly after an A is horrible) Are you willing to stop asking her for a while?

I think you are all missing the point that I have been doing my best to meet her other needs all along and we had been having SF. I also think you mischaracterizing my need for SF as a biological libido driven thing, it's not. I want to be closer to my wife, I want her to share her body and soul. It's an emotional thing for me, its not that I'm horny.

I started sleeping on the couch because I was so hurt about how she was talking about the affair and how it was such a relief to her to want sex again while at the same time telling me how awful it is to have sex with me. It was a trigger that brought back the pain of the affair.

We went through a long period where sex was off the table, and I was meeting her needs as best I could. During this time we did have counselling with Steve. She knew the POJA and she eventually agreed to have sex again. I think the problem became that I wanted it too much and was in her words obsessed with it. I was competing with the sex she had with the other man, I wanted it to be better.

IMO it is still the comparison of our relationship to the affair, that she desires the other man and not me, that is the main problem for her.

My comment about cleaning the house and having SF afterwards comes from Harley article about good habit formation:

Also I felt I had been following the advice in his article "How can a husband receive the sex
he needs in marriage?":
I was getting frustrated that SF was still getting worse and not better and when I made my complaint instead of her trying to make it better she tells me how great her affair was and how she wants to take it off the table. I have told her I am fine with that for now and I guess I have to try even harder to meet her other EN and avoid LB while getting nothing in return just to get her to the point to where she is in love with me and still giving nothing in return.

Really I think she always just takes me for granted even when she is in love with me. I feel she demands unconditional love from me. I feel like a doormat.

As far as her willingness to meet my other needs she meets the need of physical attractiveness and domestic support although not specifically from any special effort to do so. I ask for more admiration and affection and she fails to provide those too.

OK but no one was criticising your desire to be sexually intimate with your wife. That is natural and right whether it stems from physical or emotional causes. The criticism was in your repeated requests when she was unwilling. It�s crazy. What did you hope to achieve by that? It is wrong towards a loving wife, so its nuts to think a wayward would put up with it.

If she has told you you had been having sex when she was unwilling (however of course, never believe a wayward absolutely) then its good she told you so you could fix that very serious problem.

SDs are a no-no regardless of your hurt, pain and betrayal. That�s what Plan B is for, so the BS does not give in to love busters in reaction to their own pain. I don�t think love busters is what you want to be doing, is it?

When Dr H mentions motivational stuff about linking domestic support and sex in your mind, it was for you to consider in your own bid to become enthusiastic. It shouldn�t have been used as a tool in which to lecture your wife about giving in to you. You simply escalated your selfish demand by doing that.

What plan are you in? You aren�t in recovery if she�s dreaming about OM and you aren�t Plan Aing her.

Having no plan is a plan to fail. What do you want to achieve? Decide and do it.

Yes, basically that is what has happened, She has revealed that she has been agreeing to sex unenthusiastically. I have not then demanded it as you say I have, I have agreed to take it off the table and work on other things. I did get hurt and love bust but that was because of the trigger of her bringing up "what a relief it was to want sex" while in her affair.

I guess I don't know what plan I am in and I think it all stems from me letting her back to soon and not insisting that we stick to a plan after the affair. I guess I was warned earlier in the thread....She is still reluctant to work the plan so I guess that makes me in plan A even though there is no ongoing affair...I don't know. Her reluctance has caused stagnation is where we are at.

The motivational stuff about DS and SF I just casually mentioned, I was not demanding that if she wants the house clean she needs to put out, at least I didn't mean it to come across that way. I thought it as more of a mutual if we meet each others needs it becomes easier. Instead we are stuck in the unconditional love thing where I have to meet her needs while mine go unmet.

If I bring up her reluctance to meet my needs she just gets defensive and does a woe is me, I am a failure as a wife please feel sorry for me because I got this job and 6 kids and sorry if I can't be the perfect wife too.

She has agreed to do the marriage builders online program, which is a huge step I think. She has been unwilling to read books or stick to the marriage builders plan previously. She is still arguing against UA though, I tried suggestions to get her to turn the TV off last night and she refused. I avoided making it a demand so don't worry. I talked to the coach today and she said to make sure we are spending 15 hours UA so I emailed the wife and mentioned this is what the coach said and linked to the basic concept of UA and she got defensive about it because of the excuses she had made the night before.

Well what do you want to do?

Do you have the stamina to Plan A without lovebusting? Everybody reaches the point where they've had enough and they have to go dark. If I had done much time Plan Aing I would probably have killed my WH.

Plan A is not unconditional love tho. You're encouraged to set high conditions and tell them so often.

When it comes to reluctance to meet needs, just state, don't persuade, that you will need certain things to be attempted or worked towards or you are free to go.
Don't listen to response and encourage any efforts to try. Say its up to her.

They have to know you're gone unless they get on board sometime. While threatening to leave sounds like a SD Dr H says that when it comes to recovery conditions you are allowed to demand it for your sanity and health.

Feel free to tell her when she's beimg hurtful. That's a fact not a LB. Just make sure you're calm, kind and unflappable when you do.

Blaze, quick Q. You were there and I wasn't. Could you give me your opinion?

Was WW deliberately pushing your buttons about sex to get you to lovebust about sex? Think carefully.

If she was I think her aim might be to push you into a 'let's be friends' corner.

She says she has no sexual feelings for you (if she said 'yet' good but bad if not) and asked you to take it off the table.

This would be a nifty catch 22. If you agree, you're platonic friends as in every waywards dream, if you don't you SD her in a way that allows her to demonise you and push you away.


Just be aware that Plan A is all about talking about the future. You don't allow yourself to be painted as a friend and you make it clear she loses you entirely if she does not want to do the work to create a romantic and passionate marriage.

Take care of yourself too, you sound beat.

I don't think she was deliberately pushing my buttons.

Assuming she continues to resist it seems like everything is pointing to that I need to use the threat of leaving in order to get her on board with the marriage builders program. We will see how it goes once the work starts in the program. I guess we need a real heart to heart about whether or not she is going to commit to this plan. We can't keep ignoring UA.