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Marriage Builders Forums Infidelity Surviving an Affair 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad

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Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad indiegirl #2614593 04/10/12 10:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,463 Oregon K KayC Member
KayC Member K Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,463 Oregon	Very sound advice. Are you reacting visibly negative when you don't get the response you want from her? Try to remember to stick to the plan and don't be ruffled by what she says/does. If you seem like a happy pleasant person she will be more drawn to you. I know that's hard to do under the circumstances because she is constantly triggering you with her responses to you but you have to try and ignore it and keep your goal in mind, try to see her that way, as the spouse you know she CAN be, even though she's not acting it. Enacting life's lessons into positive change... .

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad KayC #2615375 04/12/12 09:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119 B blaze28 OP Member
OP blaze28 Member B Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119	Since we are not having sex currently I decided to bring up an issue. She has expressed her preference to use condoms because she doesn't like feeling messy she says. This is a problem for me because I am Catholic and it is against my religion. After the affair I was desperate to do anything to please her and so went along with condom usage while expressing that it was a problem for me and that I couldn't do it long term. We had never used condoms with rare exception in our entire 12 years together, and now she is making this a huge issue which I don't understand. She basically says she didn't sign up for my religion and she is not going to be forced to do something and if it's a problem for me we can just not have sex ever again. In the past she was always very understanding and accommodating of my religion, but not anymore I guess. My position is that for me this is a moral dilemma and she should be understanding, for her it is merely a preference. She says she used condoms during her affair. I have had some one suggest to me this is just a ruse and that she may have contracted an STD that she doesn't want to reveal but I have a hard time believing that. This basically turned in to an argument so I don't know what to do? She is adamant in her position and there are hurt feelings on both sides. Last edited by blaze28; 04/12/12 09:09 AM.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad blaze28 #2615378 04/12/12 09:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK I indiegirl Member
indiegirl Member I Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK	Originally Posted by blaze28 I have had some one suggest to me this is just a ruse and that she may have contracted an STD that she doesn't want to reveal but I have a hard time believing that. Why do you have a hard time believing that? Sounds plausible. Originally Posted by blaze28 This basically turned in to an argument so I don't know what to do? She is adamant in her position and there are hurt feelings on both sides. Dont expect anything in Plan A. Dont argue in Plan A. Just make your point about not putting up with it forever and drop it. What would you do if you were not afraid? "Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad indiegirl #2615549 04/12/12 06:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,463 Oregon K KayC Member
KayC Member K Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,463 Oregon	When a partner has an affair, they should be tested for STDs before you resume SF. Since you've already resumed SF, it's important you both be tested. I think it's a ruse to once again avoid sex, and it doesn't sound like she's interested in doing her part to work on the marriage. She just doesn't seem remorseful or invested in the relationship. Have you brought this up with Dr. Harley? Enacting life's lessons into positive change... .

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad blaze28 #2615553 04/12/12 06:43 PM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus B BrainHurts Member
BrainHurts Member B Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus	Originally Posted by blaze28 She is listing domestic support as her #1 emotional need. Is she really going to fall in love with the man who does the most chores? I find it hard to believe. It makes me think the affair was more just a fantasy of being single and child free then it was about me not meeting her needs like affection, conversation, or SF (oh yeah and the other need was for an attractive spouse, apparently she isn't happy with the size of my belly even though she is over weight herself. If AS is one of her top EN what about working out together? Lots of deposits in her LB. FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad BrainHurts #2615554 04/12/12 06:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus B BrainHurts Member
BrainHurts Member B Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus	Also since you're doing the online don't you have access to Dr. H? What about asking him? FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad BrainHurts #2617689 04/19/12 05:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119 B blaze28 OP Member
OP blaze28 Member B Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119	I guess I should probably bring up the STD thing. I got tested after I found out about the affair but we had only had sex one time once the affair started. Won't she get mad if I bring this up though, I hate to bring up the affair again and make LB withdrawals. I am trying not to get ahead of myself with the online program. Right now we are working on trying to schedule our 15 hours together and this first week the most we could find in our schedule was 11 hours. Next Dr. Harley suggested we work on love busters.....I don't see how I am doing SD, AO, or DJ but apparently she says these are a big problem but it's all related to when we were having sex. She felt I was demanding it even though I felt I was asking for it. We had agreed to try to meet each others needs when we signed the marital recovery agreement. Apparently when she said no and I would want to ask why it then became a demand. When she says no there can be no negotiation and she shouldn't have to offer a reason according to her. I had the one angry outburst I described earlier in this thread. Since we are not having sex anymore I don't really see anything that can be construed as SD, AO, of DJ.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad blaze28 #2617715 04/19/12 06:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,964 G Gamma Member
Gamma Member G Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,964	Blaze28, The fact of the matter is that HPV, a family of SDT viruses, can cause cervical, vaginal, penile, anal, oral, head and throat cancers. So SDT is no longer curable like years ago when Penicillin was a panacea. This is not a love buster this is your life. This is from the web, but is typical of the medical study results we have been seeing lately. In fact, a 2004 study of 6,000 anal cancer patients (the majority of whom were women) found that 73 percent of the patients tested positive for the strain HPV-16, one of the strain Now I will grant that this study was likely correlational, and other unknown factors may be the cause, but the evidence is very strong. God Bless Gamma

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad blaze28 #2617781 04/20/12 03:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK I indiegirl Member
indiegirl Member I Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK	Originally Posted by blaze28 When she says no there can be no negotiation and she shouldn't have to offer a reason according to her. That isnt POJA, as you know. Would she sit down and go through the POJA steps with you, so she can learn them properly? I would pitch it to her first as 'practice for me to help listen you, better Sweetie'. Try it first with a less sensitive issue than sex, purely for 'training' purposes. Put it to her that you want the practice for yourself so you can learn how to never make a decision again without her approval. Then use the steps to solve a fairly easy problem. Hopefully something that bugs her so she has a positive experience of POJA. Praise her extravagantly if you can get hrr do it. I don't see you having much success POJAing with her from a 'recovery' standpoint, but it's excellent Plan Aing becuase you show her that 'you are the spouse any reasonable person would want' which is the core of Plan A - modelling the behaviour you want to see. You show you are willing to POJA even if she is not. Originally Posted by blaze28 I am trying not to get ahead of myself with the online program. Hmmm. When youre dealing with someone who won't POJA or commit to recovery, you're not really doing the online program are you? You're Plan Aing. I think it's an excellent way to Plan A, because she's allowing you to meet her needs and win her around, even though she isnt willing to meet your needs or go all in to recovery. Could someone who has experience of the different MB counselling options chime in here? Is Blaze better contiuing as he is with the online programme or is Steve Harley/Jennifer Chalmers a better bet with a reluctant spouse, as I think I have heard people say. Originally Posted by blaze28 Won't she get mad if I bring this up though, I hate to bring up the affair again and make LB withdrawals.. Bringing up a reasonable request, such as STD testing after her affair(as long as it is genuinely phrased as a request and done so calmly, cheerfully and safely) is not a lovebuster, though is it? While she may get mad, her reaction to a reasonable request is her responsibility. Of course you would tell her that while you require it to feel safe, it is entirely her decision to choose whether she wants to make you feel safe. While Plan Aing you have to be reasonable, forthright and completely unswerved by the crazy reactions of a wayward. Stick to your plan and concentrate on your behaviours. Dont worry too much about hers. What would you do if you were not afraid? "Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad indiegirl #2618491 04/23/12 10:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119 B blaze28 OP Member
OP blaze28 Member B Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119	Ok, she has had an STD test and is clean. I am frustrated because even though I have been making the effort it doesn't seem as any progress is being made. I guess I am supposed to have no expectations. Last night we went out and during our conversation we started talking about our relationship. She made it clear she is still not happy and I said she still has emotional walls up. It sort of ruined our evening. I guess the topic of the relationship should be avoided and I should make my focus having a good time together. She said some hurtful things about maybe it just being me that makes her unhappy and that she could possibly be happy with someone else. She said she can't imagine things changing and that she doesn't know if she can ever meet my need for sex again. I don't understand, I have been doing everything I can and I am blown away by how so unhappy she still is. I asked her to really think if it is just me that she is unhappy with or is it everything else with her life. She never really answered but I told her that I can change if I am the problem. If its just her life than I don't know that we can find a solution and I am made to suffer in the mean time with a wife who doesn't love me, isn't happy, and won't have sex with me. None of this seems fair.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad blaze28 #2618640 04/23/12 09:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK I indiegirl Member
indiegirl Member I Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK	Blaze you really need to find a set script and stick to it. You're letting her threaten you with her sulky stance that is designed to put you off your game. Remeber she is NOT your ally. She doesn't want a safe romantic marriage. She will throw a lot of crap your way to stop you achieving that. She wants you to only meet certain needs. A set script looks something like this Originally Posted by blaze28 Ok, she has had an STD test and is clean. I am frustrated because even though I have been making the effort it doesn't seem as any progress is being made. I guess I am supposed to have no expectations. Last night we went out and during our conversation we started talking about our relationship. She made it clear she is still not happy ______________________________ You are responsible for choosing your own happiness sweetheart. Always let me know what you need though, and I will listen to what you specify (waywards don't specify so don't let her jerk you around by vaguely blaming you for her catching 'unhappiness disease) Or 'what can I do to help you feel happier? Be specific. I am dying to help you feel happier! ______________________________ and I said she still has emotional walls up. ________________________________ Its a DJ to try to educate your spouse or tell them how they are feeling. Ask for her to specify what she needs instead. _________________________________ It sort of ruined our evening. I guess the topic of the relationship should be avoided and I should make my focus having a good time together. ________________________________ While out, yes. Make dates opportunities to meet ENs. _______________________________ She said some hurtful things about maybe it just being me that makes her unhappy and that she could possibly be happy with someone else. _______________________________ "I will not stay in an unromantic marriage with you. You need to convince me you will rebuild the romance with me if you want me to stay." ________________________________ She said she can't imagine things changing and that she doesn't know if she can ever meet my need for sex again. ________________________________ "I will not stay in an unromantic and sexless marriage with you. You need to convince me you will rebuild the romance with me if you want me to stay." _________________________________ I don't understand, I have been doing everything I can and I am blown away by how so unhappy she still is. I asked her to really think if it is just me that she is unhappy with or is it everything else with her life. _______________________________ Never imply you make her unhappy! Say -"I will always listen to you and consider your feelings. You need to specify what you want. You need to convince me you are serious about rebuilding." _______________________________ She never really answered but I told her that I can change if I am the problem. _______________________________ Never refer to yourself as a problem! ________________________________ If its just her life than I don't know that we can find a solution and I am made to suffer in the mean time with a wife who doesn't love me, isn't happy, and won't have sex with me. ________________________________ Never talk about the negatives! Say instead: " You need to convince me you will rebuild the romance with me if you want me to stay. We can rebuild a very romantic marriage if you want one. If you don't you will lose me." What would you do if you were not afraid? "Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad indiegirl #2618642 04/23/12 09:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK I indiegirl Member
indiegirl Member I Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK	You see how she played you, don't you? She doesn't tell you what you are doing wrong (because there is no real problem) So you offer to guess 'if' you are the problem. If she can't communicate simple sentences, its not your job to criticise yourself FOR her. Just stick to a script. You can't really talk to waywards, you have to drum soundbites into them. Be a broken record. What would you do if you were not afraid? "Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad indiegirl #2618995 04/25/12 12:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,463 Oregon K KayC Member
KayC Member K Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,463 Oregon	I don't understand why you haven't Plan A'd and then gone into Plan B. She doesn't seem remorseful, sincere, or making the required effort and you are getting resentful. What I see happening is "Plan C" which is doomed to fail. Have you got a Plan B written and ready? Start doing a very short Plan A and then go to Plan B. Enacting life's lessons into positive change... .

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad blaze28 #2619001 04/25/12 12:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus B BrainHurts Member
BrainHurts Member B Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus	Originally Posted by blaze28 Ok, she has had an STD test and is clean. I am frustrated because even though I have been making the effort it doesn't seem as any progress is being made. I guess I am supposed to have no expectations. Last night we went out and during our conversation we started talking about our relationship. She made it clear she is still not happy and I said she still has emotional walls up. It sort of ruined our evening. I guess the topic of the relationship should be avoided and I should make my focus having a good time together. She said some hurtful things about maybe it just being me that makes her unhappy and that she could possibly be happy with someone else. She said she can't imagine things changing and that she doesn't know if she can ever meet my need for sex again. I don't understand, I have been doing everything I can and I am blown away by how so unhappy she still is. I asked her to really think if it is just me that she is unhappy with or is it everything else with her life. She never really answered but I told her that I can change if I am the problem. If its just her life than I don't know that we can find a solution and I am made to suffer in the mean time with a wife who doesn't love me, isn't happy, and won't have sex with me. None of this seems fair. Blaze, Aren't you doing the online program? So what does your coach say? FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad BrainHurts #2619814 04/27/12 05:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119 B blaze28 OP Member
OP blaze28 Member B Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119	Apparently I am still severely Love Busting from her perspective. I guess this happens when I tell her how I feel and talk about the relationship and tell her things are going to have to change and how I am frustrated with her lack of effort. She says I try to tell her how she feels which I guess is a DJ. We sort of identified the main things that got us to this point, the things I did that destroyed her love for me. I apologized for them and made a commitment to her to avoid making those mistakes. Our coach has said to back off on trying to get her doing the lessons because it will be perceived as a demand and to leave the encouragement to them. They also encourage me to do everything I can to make our time together enjoyable and to completely eliminate love busters and reminded me that I can only focus on my own behavior and to work on changing that. Last edited by blaze28; 04/27/12 05:04 PM.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad blaze28 #2619820 04/27/12 05:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus B BrainHurts Member
BrainHurts Member B Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus	Originally Posted by blaze28 Apparently I am still severely Love Busting from her perspective. I guess this happens when I tell her how I feel and talk about the relationship and tell her things are going to have to change and how I am frustrated with her lack of effort. She says I try to tell her how she feels which I guess is a DJ. Tell us exactly what you're saying when you tell her. So we can give you suggestions on how to say it. You need to listen to your coach!! FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad BrainHurts #2619834 04/27/12 05:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119 B blaze28 OP Member
OP blaze28 Member B Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 119	Originally Posted by BrainHurts Tell us exactly what you're saying when you tell her. So we can give you suggestions on how to say it. You need to listen to your coach!! I told her that I felt her emotional walls were up, that she wasn't trying, and that I felt she was still in a state of withdrawal. I told her that we shouldn't give up and that this will take work, that it's easy to fall out of love but harder to fall back in love. I told her that I grew up with married parents and all my friends parents were married and that seems normal to me and perhaps because she grew up in a twice over divorced family that she was more apt to give up and look for something better. I told her if we didn't make this work there was chance she could bounce from man to man like her mother has ( 4 men I know of including my wifes father). I told her that she would eventually have to learn to enjoy sex with me again and that our family WAS at stake...I was referencing an earlier email of hers about this subject where she said this was why she didn't enjoy sex because she felt she had no choice because she felt the family was at stake. This was part of the point I was making to her that working on this marriage is important because the family is at stake....how can she be so unmotivated to change or work at this...the stakes ARE high.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad blaze28 #2619884 04/27/12 06:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK I indiegirl Member
indiegirl Member I Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK	You're trying to educate her... STOP IT. That would annoy anyone. You can only choose your own boundaries, what you will and won't expect and how long you will stick around. You can't teach her/tell her what her boundaries should be. You can't tell her why she's doing it. She's a grown up. She knows why. She has free will. She can quit the marriage if she wants, she can be a fool if she wants. But she needs to know there are consequences. Listen to your coach! What would you do if you were not afraid? "Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad blaze28 #2619892 04/27/12 06:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK I indiegirl Member
indiegirl Member I Joined: Jun 2011 Posts: 11,650 UK	Originally Posted by blaze28 I told her that she would eventually have to learn to enjoy sex with me again and that our family WAS at stake. She doesn't have to do anything! Your saying so is a demand. But neither do you have to stick around and accept that. Her saying you do is also a demand. Phrase things like: 'No, I will need you to be enthusiastic and think of ways I can help you to be. I will not be in a sexless marriage forever. What would you do if you were not afraid? "Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

Re: 10 years and 6 kids later its looking really bad indiegirl #2619964 04/27/12 10:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus B BrainHurts Member
BrainHurts Member B Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,440 Likes: 4 Moved to Uranus	I agree with IG. No wonder your WW felt like you said some DJ'S because you did. So how are you going to say things without DJ's? Listen to this radio clip. Radio clip on DJ's FWW/BW (me) WH 2nd M for both Blended Family with 7 kids between us Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.

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