Ellie. Plan A is only one part of the process. It does not work if the other steps are not taken along with it.

If there is an affair here, Plan A, on its own, will do nothing to kill it and you will just end up with a cake eating WH.

What snooping tools are you using? Your WH is smart and he also knows that you are suspicious of this OW. There is a good chance that WH is now smart enough to take it underground. This means that he will have secret e-mail accounts, secret phones, and maybe even secret facebook accounts.

You will have no clue about these because you have not taken any measures such as a keylogger to find anything underground.

There are many of us here who were fooled by our own WS who took it underground. It went undetected by the BS because they were not looking for it.

You need to rule out the possibility of continued contact with this OW. Your WH manipulation tactics are a huge

I am sensing that you are planning to skip the snooping and that is a big strategic mistake on your part.

I snoop like a bloodhound.

I am putting the keyloggers on tomorrow.

I was over reading starfishes thread. I am thinking back on something WH said yesterday. It was to the effect is here he is trying and he is getting very bad results. That the damage is so bad, it can never be fixe.. that is, he does not believe I will forgive him and he is losing faith based upon my response of anger and outbursts.

I think he is using that as an excuse to behave badly and stay in the fog. But, should I be telling him that I can forgive him?

I never, the whole last almost two years, even once said, I forgive you or I will forgive you, or I can forgive you. I have said, how can you do that, how could you do that, why did you do that. My anger, my condemnation, my outbursts, my disrespect, my demands, my beating at this wall he hides behind telling him how awful I feel.

Wow. I am Saul turning into Paul. I feel shocked at my own rigidity and moral self rightiousness.

No you were dead right.

Dr H says blanket forgiveness is highly damaging. If you say to a friend 'I will wipe your debt to me of 10,000 bucks' how does that teach the friend responsibility to the friend.

Set your conditions and tell your WH he can have the chance to EARN your forgiveness through actions.

Massively generous.

Don't beat yourself up ellie. This is not what you signed up for and when it happens none of us know how to deal with it.

You are in a safe place here.

Just quietly snoop for a few days and lets see what you find.

I will tell him.

He is wanting to talk. He mailed me and he sounds cold.

This stuff is scaring me. I think I am going to be given a dose of hostility and then him retreating into a mad silence.

I don't really want to be the recipient of it or get into ugly stuff.

Nerves

omg, now he is refusing to respond to me. I was polite to him.

i am starting to get angry. what the heck, the games of control and resentment.

Withdraw if you become under attack. Simply dont listen.

Say. 'Ok. what do you want for dinner?'
Or 'Your choices are your choices' (good way of refusing to take blame or make demands)
Or 'That was very hurtful and I would rather you not say hurtful things. Do you want a cookie?'
Or (appear to) listen very intently and then say 'Did you know that if you shaved a polar bear it is BLACK underneath? Isnt that crazy?' - or whatever nonsense you like to show you won't listen to nonsense.
Or simply walk away.

I predict he will threaten great hostility and threaten divorce and leaving you unless you do as you're told and back off. It will all be nonsense and idle threats though. Just show that you're not scared, respond minimally and walk away.

Even if he's discovered a snooping tool, dont apologise, respond that you are free to choose openness in marriage, and walk away.

You can do this, you're doing brilliantly.

That's fine. Leave him be. A toddler in a sulk. You are the only sober one, the only grown up.

haha you made me laugh with the polar bear thing.
I'm Zen now.

Ah yes, grasshopper.

If a wayward falls in a forrest and there is no one there to catch him - does it matter one jot?

wow. he totally shocked me. I guess he was gruff because he was trying to steel himself.

he agreed. to everything. i have all the pw now. He agreed to tell Facebook girl to stay away.

he asked me if i would go on a trip to spend time with him. he says we need to have our safe place. with each other. he agreed to work on things and will read the MB material and fill out the questionairre for needs.

He gave me hugs and kisses and cuddled me.

I was expecting a massive slap down. I am in shock.

I have a cynical streak and am still putting the keyloggers on.

He's lying. It's just a change of tactic.


And every other type of snooping gadget. This A just went further underground.

You're doing very well. Keep it up!

Tread carefully here, Ellie. Be sure and amplify your snooping techniques. He is buttering you up to get you to calm down and back off.

Keep asserting what it will take for you to stay in the marriage. Set the bar high and see if he can rise to the challenge. You've done noting wrong and did not deserve to be abandoned and lied to. Remember this.

You need a polygraph and a list of EP's (extraordinary precautions) and you need to be willing to stand behind it. He thinks he can be sweet to you and you'll back off. Don't make that mistake. Keep the pressure on!!

Worst case scenario for you is him failing and you moving on. It would not be the end of the world. No one deserves to stay married to a liar, a cheater, a manipulator and someone who constantly tells you you're crazy for demanding more.

You are worth more...much, much more.

Put a GPS on his car.

You do need EPs, Ellie my (personal opinion) is don't bring them up initially for a few days, just so he feels chilled, able to slip up and you can snoop better.

But plan to present them soon, and I would include an insistance he get rid of online sites, as he clearly can't handle them.

Concentrate on evidence and preparing for exposure initially.

You are being manipulated and gaslit by a PRO. He pouts and whines to stop the behavior from you that makes him uncomfortable. He tests your ability to hear the truth (and you are failing with angry outbursts) and he plays games with you...in town/vacation ARRRHHHGHG.

You DO need to stop your angry outbursts. Get control of yourself. Have you studied "lovebusters"?? It is your job and responsibility to stop those.

And its your job to identify and meet his needs.

However, while you are doing this -- you also need to become SUPERSLUETH. If he willingly gave up his passwords, it just means he's come up with a new form of communication. He'll get sneakier.

Have you been on the Operation Investigate forum?
Voice Activated Recorder in his car. Keylogger.
Spyware for his phone. GPS.

Get it done!

Don't believe a word he says. But don't tell him that! Agree gently and immediately begin snooping. If you find something, don't tell him. Bring it here first.

He has written to facebook girl and disconnected that situation, in theory. I have his password there and she is blocked.

Keyloggers are installed on home PC's. I would love to get one on his work laptop, but I think if he is actually up to something and he thinks I am not paying attention, he will slip up on the home computer, it will be a longer wait.

Can't get anything on his smart phone so far, since he keeps it locked. At least so far, my checking it has shown it locked. Again, I think eventually he will slip up and I can probably get the logger on the phone.

So far, all is calm. I have implemented Plan A actions. He is responsive to that, but... he told me that he feels angry at me for my public outburst on facebook last week. He feels huniliated and emotionally angry. He is mad I took it public rather than just slapping him around privately. He indicated that his "head" understands, but his emotions need to catch up, so he asks me to be patient while he .. I guess implements a little standoffish behavior of his own now.

He says he is totally fine with calmly talking about things, but if I have an outburst, he simply is not able to respond to it. So that is clearly a big LB for him when I do that.

I get it, but (hah always a but) at the same time, ALL the last 1+ years I have tried to get calm conversations and he has refused them by leaving any way he can, like hanging up on me, walking out the door, ignoring emails and refusing to answer the telephone. It's been massively frustrating to me and very painful.. = me having an outburst. I realize I can't do that anymore even when he presents me with obstructive responses.


He appears NOW to have decided not to do that anymore, so I guess that will make it easier to keep my own self in check as I re-develope new habits. I do have some resentment over the situation still, but I believe I can manage that now.

That's all that really going on in the last day.

Your behaviour should not hinge on his anyway.

You have to be cool and unshakeable..like Jane Bond- for just a few weeks!

If he gives you any 'standoffish behaviour' its designed to get a reaction or response from you.

Ignore it as you would any sulky toddler.

Plan A is always done to a hostile partner. TO them not with them and in spite of them.