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How does this sound to everyone?

From husband to Wife,
Regarding the situation with our nephew, we each have our own perception of what happened and our own judgments about what was correct behavior and what was unacceptable. You are correct that men dont have the same nurturing attitudes that women have which sets the stage for us to disagree from the start because of gender. But it doesnt mean I dont care about him or that I have a cold heart. Its just not identical to yours and it means I wont take the same actions as you would. So I would appreciate if you can stop expecting me to do things as you would do and instead communicate your feelings.

I did talk to you when children came in with the announcement. You thought I was being selfish by asking you to do it. So instead of taking all the responsibility upon yourself and then being upset with me for not fulfilling your expectations, you could have said
A) I know this game is important to you so I will see what is wrong outside.
B) Im busy in the kitchen right now, could you check it out?
C) Can you help me check on him?

I need you to focus on the behaviors you want to see with clear communication. If you want help, then make a respectful request.
I understand you think I acted unloving. But can you also see it from my point of view? If you would have been watching the season finale of your favorite tv show I would have happily responded to situations with children without even needing a request from you.

If you were overwhelmed with things in the kitchen all you had to do was say No I cant right now and I would have gone outside.

I can understand there are two sides, that both people can be right in a given situation, based on their perception of what happened. I think I made an honest request for your help, you think I didn't respond appropriately.

You are right we are having this constant tension that seems to stem from If you cared, you would do x.

Instead can we try, I know you dont see it the same as me but if you could do x that would help.

The first way is an insult to me. The second way acknowledges we are different and communicates your needs.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Sounds condescending and snippy to me. And I'm not even already mad at you.

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Sounds snotty and defensive to me. And doesn't solve the problem.

You are still trying to be right instead of behaving in a way that inspires love and respect from your wife. All you do by arguing the point is drain her lovebank EVEN MORE by showing hre you don't CARE about her perspective. You need to quit while you are behind!! Stop digging the hole deeper!!

STOP DEBATING WITH YOUR WIFE!! All she is doing is informing you that you are making lovebank withdrawals. That is your opportunity to take steps to STOP the blood bath. When the bank sends you an overdraft notice do you argue and continue to write hot checks? Or do you stop writing hot checks and make a deposit??? crazy sheeesh!!

A better response:

Dear Wife,

I apologize for dismissing your opinion. Your opinion matters to me and I very much want you to be in love with me and to admire me as a man.

I am sorry I behaved in a thoughtless manner, putting the needs of our nephew behind my desire to watch a sports game. I will try to do better in the future. I apologize for arguing with you and thank you for pointing out to me how I can behave in a manner than inspires your love rather than your contempt.

all my love, bigpicture..


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ML's version sounds like my giver appeasing her taker. MBers are supposed to negotiate with each others takers so that both are happy. Not sacrifice or roll over and just tell her she is right.

Her disrespect stems from her opinion that "If you cared, if you loved me, if you x then you would y."

The problem stemmed from lack of communication to reach POJA, not a rude LBer.

I have no problem trying to understand how I can improve my behavior but I cannot accept her DJ that I do not care about my family.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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It is not her "taker" when you informs you of annoying behavior. She is informing you of lovebank withdrawals. And you can either stop annoying her and protect the love in your marriage or you can keep annoying her and destroy the love in your marriage.

That is your choice. But debating with her instead of trying to make her happy is not going to help your marriage. She has made a complaint and a complaint is an irritation in a bad marriage or an opportunity to change in a good marriage. We can see where a complaint stands in your marriage, it is an irritation which warrants dismissal, condescension and ARGUMENT. That is becuase you don't understand this program.

The problem with you is that you know just enough about Marriage Builders to be dangerous but not enough to actually help your marriage. And you have been here for FIVE YEARS.

My suggestion to you since do-it-yourself hasn't worked is to sign up for the MB online course and really learn the program. You need hands on GUIDANCE from a professional coach because you do not GET it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: bigpicture
ML's version sounds like my giver appeasing her taker. MBers are supposed to negotiate with each others takers so that both are happy. Not sacrifice or roll over and just tell her she is right.


Just a suggestion for you. Why not find someone who has a GOOD MARRIAGE around here and understands Marriage Builders and ask them how to do it? And sign up for the Marriage Builders course. Your best thinking has wrecked your own marriage so maybe its time to admit you don't know what you are doing. You still have a bad marriage after 5 years.

There is nothing wrong with admitting that you don't understand the program. I was slow on the uptake too. I came here in 2001 and didn't go through the program until 2007. I still did not understand the POJA after all those years on this board until I went through the course. There is no shame in admitting you need help. YOU NEED MORE HELP THAN THIS FORUM PROVIDES.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Right now making her happy seems to require agreeing that I didn't live up to HER expectations which were not communicated except after the fact with a disrespectful judgment that

"husband must not care because if he did care he would have acted how I wanted him to".

ML, I have no problem with your letter but I am not going to let her off the hook for not communicating her needs which would have led to POJA, and avoided her DJ of me not caring about our family. As she said, anyone can appear insensitive in a given moment. Rather than talk to me she assumed I don't care.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Markos,
What does this mean?
Originally Posted By: markos
... because women find it harder to meet men's emotional needs unless men make the circumstances just right. She is telling you how to make the circumstances just right.


You make it sound like you are letting women off the hook for MBing.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Originally Posted By: bigpicture


ML, I have no problem with your letter but I am not going to let her off the hook for not communicating her needs which would have led to POJA, and avoided her DJ of me not caring about our family. As she said, anyone can appear insensitive in a given moment. Rather than talk to me she assumed I don't care.


I think you should just educate her on the error of her ways and put her in her place. That will really help your marriage. You don't have the power to put her "on the hook" and the suggestion that you DO is a disrespectful judgment on your part. Being disrespectful in response to her disrespect is NOT an appropriate response that is going to create love in your marriage. You are still OBSESSED with the goal of being "right" rather than behaving in ways that create love in your marriage. Lose the debate!

Recognize this in your post above:

Originally Posted By: disrespectful judgements
A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.

In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one spouse wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our spouses, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful. That's when we make sizable withdrawals from the Love Bank.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html

Are you ignoring my comments about getting professional help?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: bigpicture
Markos,
What does this mean?
Originally Posted By: markos
... because women find it harder to meet men's emotional needs unless men make the circumstances just right. She is telling you how to make the circumstances just right.


You make it sound like you are letting women off the hook for MBing.


He is telling you that women are different from men. Shocking, I know! grin


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Why don't you both take the Disrespectful judgment questionaire tonight and exchange them when you are finished? That might help you see how disrespectful you are and vice versa:


Disrespectful Judgments Questionnaire
Circle the number that best represents your feelings about the way your spouse tries to influence your attitudes, beliefs, and behavior. If you circle a number greater than 1 for any question, try to think of an example that you can share with your spouse and write it on a sheet of paper.

1. Does your spouse ever try to "straighten you out?"


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


2. Does your spouse ever lecture you instead of respectfully discussing issues?


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


3. Does your spouse seem to feel that his or her opinion is superior to yours?


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


4. When you and your spouse discuss an issue, does he or she interrupt you or talk so much that you are prevented from having a chance to explain your position?


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7

5. Are you afraid to discuss your points of view with your spouse?

Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


6. Does your spouse ever ridicule your point of view?


Almost Never---------------Sometimes----------Much of the Time
1----------2----------3----------4----------5----------6----------7


The scoring for this questionnaire is simple. Unless all of your spouse's answers are "1," you're probably engaging in disrespectful judgments. Almost all of us are guilty of this Love Buster from time to time; so don't be alarmed if you get some twos or threes. But if your spouse gave you any fours, fives, sixes, or sevens, you're at risk to lose your spouse's love for you because your disrespectful judgments are rising to the level of abuse.

If your spouse identifies you as one who makes disrespectful judgments, you may be tempted to make yet another disrespectful judgment and claim that he or she is wrong! Resist that temptation at all costs because in every case of abuse, the victim is a far better judge of its existence than the perpetrator. Take his or her word for it, and start working on a plan to eliminate whatever it is your spouse interprets as disrespect.

When we try to impose our opinions on our spouses, we imply that they have poor judgment. That's disrespectful. We may not say this in so many words, but it's the clear message that they hear. If we valued their judgment more, we might question our own opinions. What if they're right, and we're wrong?

article and questionaire here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3402_disrespect.html


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ML,
Your CAPITAL letters are generally considered offensive among etiquette savvy internet users.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/netiquette-rules.html

Please refrain from YELLING at people looking for help here.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Originally Posted By: bigpicture
ML,
Your CAPITAL letters are generally considered offensive among etiquette savvy internet users.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/netiquette-rules.html

Please refrain from YELLING at people looking for help here.


But that doesn't address my posts. Did you read my posts? Or are you ignoring them? ARE YOU LISTENING?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I agree with Melody that you should take the course or sign up for phone counselling with one of the Harleys. Or you can be like me, not take the course, not do phone counselling, and be here 10 years later without having created a mutually satisfying marriage.


When you can see it coming, duck!
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bp, I will make a deal with you. I will stop using CAPS if you start listening and paying attention to our posts. It is very offensive when we take the time and trouble to post to you and it is ignored or brushed aside for your own solution.

We should not have to teach a 5 year veteran about this program, but several of us are willing to help you if you will listen. If you aren't going to listen and take the advice from the folks who know the program, then I am not going to waste my time here.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane

...Your best thinking has wrecked your own marriage so maybe its time to admit you don't know what you are doing. You still have a bad marriage after 5 years.


Shocking. My wife and I are having a problem with something that happened. She would be more insulted than I am if she read your comments that imply she would have stuck around 5 more years in a horrible relationship. In fact we are together because we both see each other growing and learning how to get better at this, contrary to your presumptive and demeaning comments.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
bp, I will make a deal with you. I will stop using CAPS if you start listening and paying attention to our posts. It is very offensive when we take the time and trouble to post to you and it is ignored or brushed aside for your own solution.

We should not have to teach a 5 year veteran about this program, but several of us are willing to help you if you will listen. If you aren't going to listen and take the advice from the folks who know the program, then I am not going to waste my time here.


ML, are you employed by MBers? Because otherwise it seems we should all be addressing you as Queen MBer. I see the root of the problem is you are offended I am not following your advice:capitulate because her complaint is valid. I do agree, you should stop wasting your time here.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Quote:

Shocking. My wife and I are having a problem with something that happened. She would be more insulted than I am if she read your comments that imply she would have stuck around 5 more years in a horrible relationship. In fact we are together because we both see each other growing and learning how to get better at this, contrary to your presumptive and demeaning comments.


The proof is in the pudding, though. This isn't an isolated situation, but a matter of skill level in accepting and understanding complaints from your wife. All one has to do is read your disrespectful, dismissive comments to your wife. The fact that you deem her complaint as not valid tells me you dont understand what you are doing and need help.

Your wife gave you a valid complaint and your response is to argue and deflect. There is no excuse for being so unskilled and thoughtless 5 years after joining Marriage Builders. That is lovebusters 101. Like Dr Harley says "complaints are an irritation in a bad marriage, and an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage."

Others here would be remiss if the lack of skill level was not pointed out. That is not an "insult" but a valid critique of your skills that you need to hear.

And you do want to improve, don't you? How can you improve if others don't show you how?
Originally Posted By: bigpicture
[

ML, are you employed by MBers? Because otherwise it seems we should all be addressing you as Queen MBer. I see the root of the problem is you are offended I am not following your advice:capitulate because her complaint is valid. I do agree, you should stop wasting your time here.


I am not employed by Marriage Builders, but I do have a very happy, passionate marriage because of Marriage Builders. And was attempting to help you have the same. to no avail.. crazy When someone has been here for 5 years and still doesn't get it, there is probably a reason why. They don't pay attention. I see that happening here.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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BP, this article touches on the issue of complaints in marriage. It should be a real eye opener:

Complaining in Marriage

Dear Dr. Harley,

My wife says that she wishes she could talk to me about the things
she is dissatisfied with in our marriage, so they could be addressed.
But when she does talk to me about these things, I get frustrated
because it seems like she is never happy with me. The progress I
make doesn't seem to matter.

I often see her explaining what she is upset about as complaining and
only focusing on the negative. I don't often feel like she has
recognized the good things about us. I want her to be more positive.
I think she complains too much and does not see the good in some
situations. I want her perspective to change, but she doesn't think
she has to do something different to make this happen.

Thanks for your help.

R.D.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear R.D.

On average, women complain far more often than men, in both good and
bad marriages. But there is a difference in how the complaints are
received in those marriages. In good marriages, a complaint is
regarded as a problem to be solved with wisdom and compassion. In
bad marriages, a complaint is viewed as an unnecessary irritant --
something that should be either ignored or reacted to with anger and
disrespect.

Remember what a complaint is -- it's a reminder that you are losing
love units in your account in your wife's Love Bank. She is simply
giving you accurate information about the present state of your
relationship. While it may be discouraging to hear that you are
losing ground, to be kept in the dark about such losses would be
worse in the long run.


More than anything else, your wife wants to be in love with you, and
you want her to be in love with you. So to achieve that crucial
objective you must know when her love for you is being threatened by
behavior that makes her unhappy. If your marriage has any hope of
recovery, she must tell you how she feels about your behavior, and
you must make corrections to eliminate her negative reactions.

Your wife's high incidence of negative reactions simply reflects the
number of issues that have yet to be resolved in your marriage. If
you want her to be more positive, you must address those issues, and
eliminate them one at a time. You've had success in the past, and
she has been very encouraged when that happens. But when you seem
to be overwhelmed by it all, and tell her that she must learn to be
more positive, she feels hopeless because there remain many issues
that must be resolved if she is to be happy and in love with you.

The harder you try to become sensitive to your wife reactions, the
more successful you will become in doing what it takes to make her
happy. The more you try to avoid anger, replacing it with empathy
(an effort to try to understand how your wife feels without being
defensive), the more your wife will feel your care for her, and
that in itself will make massive Love Bank deposits.

Remember, all of your efforts on your wife's behalf make a
difference in the way you think and behave. You are rerouting
neural pathways in your brain that will make it easier for you to
care for her in the future. While it may seem like a lot of
effort now, in the future, it will be almost effortless to address
your wife's complaints, and solve her problems with compassion.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: bigpicture
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
bp, I will make a deal with you. I will stop using CAPS if you start listening and paying attention to our posts. It is very offensive when we take the time and trouble to post to you and it is ignored or brushed aside for your own solution.

We should not have to teach a 5 year veteran about this program, but several of us are willing to help you if you will listen. If you aren't going to listen and take the advice from the folks who know the program, then I am not going to waste my time here.


ML, are you employed by MBers? Because otherwise it seems we should all be addressing you as Queen MBer. I see the root of the problem is you are offended I am not following your advice:capitulate because her complaint is valid. I do agree, you should stop wasting your time here.


Wow, the real BP reveals himself? Is this how you respond to your DW when she touches a nerve? Obviously, Queen Mel's (lol!) posts are dead-on or you wouldn't be resorting to childish name-calling and lame insults. I've heard others lamblast ML and other excellent posters when they hit too close to home. I've also seen these same posters either run away whining about how mean MB is and spin their lies OR they come back and admit that they were wrong and continue to grow strong in MB based marriages. Which will you be?

ML and others have been doing their best to get you to "see" how you're screwing up your marriage with your resentment and stubbornness. Wake up man and smell the coffee. And quit being so obnoxious. Nobody here is against you, we're just FOR your marriage. Be nice!


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists. Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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