RCX, you're doing fine. It's a big long marathon and a daily uphill climb, but you can do it. Keep learning and reading and writing and asking questions her eand we can help buide you. At home, just keep being the best hubby you can be and let the chips fall where they may; that's not advice, just encouragement from an objective observer.

Your approach to savign the marriage is not unconventional around here -- we all tried plan A for at least a while. I was only saying that it's usually used in an affair situation to set up an eventual Plan B (separation with conditions on getting beck together). It's "look how good our marriage could be" as a last view of the R before separating adn saying "sorry, but I can't be around the abuse anymore, if you want to get back together, here's what I need to see from you..." Thats' a synopsis but you can read all about it on this website.

Read about Plan A. Read about LBers. And try to learn as much as you can about POJA. It's a gift from the heavens if you really can implement it, which you probably can't at this stage with a reluctant spouse, but eventually you can and must for your marriage to thrive. Which it will once you have reestablished yourself as the best husband your wife could ever dream of.

For this weekend I suggest you keep it light, but be around and try to do things with her when you can and if she'll let you. Try to meet her needs if her $LB is open to you at all; but don't expect anythign in return. She's very very protective (maybe even selfish...) right now most likely.

You've done well to NOTE what she feels she can't live with (the reasons to leave). So often, they don't tell you ("he should know by now what I need" -- that's manipulation and set up for failure, BTW, but let it go for now). Make your obervations and then make your adjustments.

Let her be "pissed" if she wants -- you're just trying to be a good husband and a better person. Let it be uncomfortable for her to consider divorcing someone so wonderful. Let her head explode with the conflict of it all. Ultimately she might come to the concluusion that she's most best off by being right at home with you where she is loved for sure.

Generally I am a huge detester of counsellors, but yours seems okay. If not just to talk about what you're learning here. I have no idea what a "testing" phase is. Good grief. Just be careful because they generally wreck more marriages than they save (like 999999 to 1).

opt

Well im ready for all the I told you so's... she has been texting a guy. Im not sure how far along it is (I think they have just met) but she is definitely into him. I found some texts talking about how he chose sleep rather than talk to her.

Uh oh. I was catching up on your thread and was about to post in support of the advice Optimism is giving you and pat you on the back for doing a fine job, and then I saw this.

Okay - maybe just another 'speedbump', maybe real bad news.

You need to confront this new situation ASAP. She is obviously still deep in the fog (sometimes I wonder if a Wayward EVER get out of the fog) so don't expect much. But let her know that you know what's going on, and let it be known that this is Independent Behavior and your marriage cannot survive IB. Plan A has a Carrot and a Stick - you've been awesome with the Carrot, time to use the Stick, no?

Linus

This will be her second EA in 3 years. Im not sure if I will ever be able to trust her again.

RCX,
please click "notify" at the bottom of your post and request that a moderator move your thread to the "Surviving an Affair" thread. Folks there will be more expert in helping you navigate Dr. Harley/MB principles for saving your marriage. You should order "Surviving an Affair" and read it, along with all the other material that's been suggested.

Nobody will say "I told you so." You never really recovered from the first affair (I have the tee-shirt on that situation). So, she's just going back to familiar territory (as you did to some extent).

This is your chance to recover the MB way and make your marriage better than before. It will have to be better, because obviously what ever you had before leads to affairs.

You are going to get a LOT of advice. It's going to be overwhelming. Don't panic. Try to take things one step at a time and be patient.

One more thing: I'm really sorry, man. Nobody deserves this treatment. You have every right to be all manner of emotional. You've done nothing wrong.

You can win this fight RCX. And I hope you do.

opt

Also, I agree with Linus that it's time to talk turkey.
It is NOT a love buster to outline what you'll tolerate in your marriage. If you are respectful and clear, you are doing nothing wrong to state what you'll accept and what you won't accept in your relationship; what you signed up for and what you didn't.

Your head is spinning right now, but when you are more focused you can absolutely let her know that you are not interested in a relationship with 3 people involved. Also, that You are also not in favor of a divorce where everyone holds hands and gets along like nothing ever happened. You can remind her that you signed up to commit to meeting her needs and although you've faltered that's no excuse for her to go outside the marriage, that you will fight for the marriage, to honor yourself your child and ultimately her, once she comes to the reality of what she is doing.

opt

Perhaps my feelings will change in the coming weeks but right now my thoughts are this

I will continue to be the best husband I can be, I can see I am already in her head and she is totally confused as to what is going on with me. When we talk about us she gets all teary and emotional, she knows she is leaving a good thing and the internal struggle is tremendous.

Her fling seems to have just started within the past two weeks. She was asking a friend of hers (who was also wayward) what he thought one of the texts meant that she got from her new crush. Based on the context my assumption is that she is asking her friend if he thinks the new guy is into her. But in another message she is telling the same wayward friend that she was sad because her crush wanted to go to sleep rather than talk with my wife, so it seems the other guy is not super interested in her. It seems to be flirting at the moment but still crossing boundaries.

If the fling fizzles out she will come crawling back to me... as of right now I do not think I will be there for her.

She was also telling her wayward friend how happy she was to go file for divorce tomorrow and they were going to have a party (what empty souls they are). So I cant imagine telling her that I know about her fling will really change anything right now. She is really trying hard to fast track our divorce to get on with her super awesome new life!! Eventually she will realize that her new grass isn't any greener and she will finally see the beautiful pasture she left to go wallow in some saw grass. I believe when she makes this revelation it will be the hardest point for me because I will have to decide what to do.

I'm just not sure I will ever be able to trust her. My fear in our relationship has always been that she didn't respect boundaries until they had been crossed. We addressed this after her first EA and she promised it would NEVER happen again. She told me she would let me know AS SOON as she started to feel lonely or vulnerable. And here we are once again in the same situation except for the first EA our marriage was like a beat up old junker that barely ran. I was much more understanding of why she would venture outside of our marriage then. Comparatively the marriage we have today is like a 2 year old Lexus that has a scratch in the door. It has its ups and downs like any marriage but apparently her vows didn't include the words Worse, Poorer, Sickness. She is in love as long as she has the world by the balls, as soon as things get a little difficult she is jumping ship.

BTW I think her new guy is at the gym she works out at, maybe ill show up tomorrow and hop on the machine next to them!! We can talk about how we are going to work out the sleeping arrangements over the next few months.

Hi, can I ask you something? In your earlier posts you said your wife wanted a 'change' and she was deciding on repainting a room or divorce....

**efit** Does she work? **edit**

In terms of love busters. **edit** Get her to order her emotional needs in a simple list then you can see where to focus. It seems the domestic need is high seeing she mentioned house-cleaning.. if your work is interfering with your time at home maybe you want to make some lifestyle changes for the sake of your family.. what is most important to you?

Make a list of your emotional needs as well. Dr. Harleys list. Don't get too thorough.. just a simple list. If you over-analyse you will lose sight... I hope this helps...

A reminder to posters that the purpose of the forum is to help posters learn Marriage Builders concepts. Please help this poster do that.

Thank you.

I will continue to be the best husband I can be, I can see I am already in her head and she is totally confused as to what is going on with me. When we talk about us she gets all teary and emotional, she knows she is leaving a good thing and the internal struggle is tremendous.
--- so you're plan A is having a positive effect. Good. Let her struggle with the poor choice she is making.

She was asking a friend of hers (who was also wayward) what he thought one of the texts meant that she got from her new crush.
--- RCX. Seriously. This a boundary that you must develop. No opposite sex friends. Period. You can see the devastating effects they have on a relationship. Please tell this loser to leave your wife alone. Protect your wife. Protect your marriage. This POS has no business influencing your life. Tell his wife, too.

If the fling fizzles out she will come crawling back to me... as of right now I do not think I will be there for her.
--- This is where the MB program must be implemented correctly. You recovered on your own last go-around. And look where you are now. If she comes back it must be on YOUR (MB) terms this time. Do you want to keep going through this? Maybe you don't take her back; that's your right and nobody will fault you. I urge you to consider the devastating effects of divorce however, not just on you but on your child, and on your financial situation. It's real ugly, man.

So I cant imagine telling her that I know about her fling will really change anything right now.
---Absoltely wrong. RCX. Half the fun of her little wayward escapade is that nobody knows about it! It's mysterious and fun, and clandestine and sneaky and exciting! You MUST elicit the help of everyone that cares about your marriage and ask for their help and guidance. You must shine a light on the sick little dark secret of hers. Expose it for what it is: a nasty disgusting addiction to a world of smoke and mirrors, and debauchery. Tell her you know. Don't let her operate in secret - it only prolongs the excitement for the wayward.

I'm just not sure I will ever be able to trust her.
---This is how I know you don't have a full understanding of MB principles. No MB spouse speaks of trust as a virtue. We hold our spouses accountable. We WANT our spouses to hold us accountable. It's a sign of our love for each other and our valuing of the marriage. Dr. Harley has comcluded that ALL spouses would cheat given the right circumstances and that NO spouse would cheat given the right protections.
---If you recover the right way, you will forget about trust and put extraordinary protections in place for each other and with each other. So this will not happen again. So this agony will not repeat itself. So you can teach your child how to have a loving protective marriage and she won't go out and find a mate someday and fall into the same traps the rest of us have.

BTW I think her new guy is at the gym she works out at, maybe ill show up tomorrow and hop on the machine next to them!! We can talk about how we are going to work out the sleeping arrangements over the next few months.
---This guy sounds like a typical loser out for some sort of excitement with a married woman. The lowest form of detestable, ignorant scum there is. However, I also don't think he's all that interested in your wife. I would expect he'll go away like a fly if you wave your hand at him. I would get his number and text him (maybe with your wife's phone). If he shows up again, let all hell rain down on his puny pea-brained head.
---In the meantime. This is only another of a string of EA's/PA's you can look forward to if you don't handle this correctly. The path to recovery from adultery is narrow and specific RCX. Dr. Harley has counselled thousands and has come up with a plan. A SINGLE plan that works. IF you follow it to the letter, you will succeed and restore your marriage to new heights not before imagined.

Again. You'll get consistent accurate and plentiful advice on SAA board. Take the thread over there for a real plan of success. But again I urge you to be patient; everythign seems urgent but this process does take a while. Including divorce -- she can't "fast track" it unless you comply with her selfish demands.

Oh, BTW, she's not going to like any of this. AT ALL. That's okay. It's still not a LBer. It's you protecting the marraige from a POS and from her already proven WAYWARD tendencies. It's you protecting yourself and your child and your wife.

And one more thing: before you go to the gym, GO TO THE BANK. Put a lock on your accounts or put your money in safe place. She will drain you, because you've "gone out of your mind, and I needed to protect myself from him." They always do.

opt

Optimism, Thanks for all of your support I see your point about exposing the affair and taking away the thrill of it.

Her wayward male friend has already divorced his wife so no use exposing there. It is just sickening how he is cheering her on, as I mentioned in an earlier post last weekend was great but after she went to work on Monday she was back forcing the divorce full steam ahead. Due to the POS cheering no doubt.

She is texting her new guy on a company issued blackberry that I can not add any spy apps to (locked down) she left it open last night by accident and that is how I saw the texts. Im considering calling her bosses and telling them she is using company property to carry out an extramarital affair. What are your thoughts.

Also exposure to her parents or family will do little because they will all say "well can you blame her, she was married to a monster" (her mother has painted me in a terrible light to their family, she is also petty and shallow). I am a fairly serious person and they are very bubbly... they take my seriousness as stuck up or grumpy.

She is supposed to go file for divorce today at noon... I would say there is an 85% chance she will actually do it. She was tossing and turning all night last night. She got up at 4:30 and wanted to talk. She snuggled with me (maybe for old times sake) and was very sweet and genuine then got ready for work. It took her ~3X longer than normal to get ready and I heard her crying so I believe she is quite torn about what to do.

I guess the main reason I doubt I will ever trust her is because of who she is. First she wanted a divorce because I never help out around the house, then it was because I didn't respect her, then it was because I didn't want to build a new house, now its because we don't go out on dates. She is such a materialistic person with little to no moral fiber. I knew this when I met her but I always thought she would develop into a real person. However after 9 years of marriage she is still a shallow 16yo girl who is only interested in what ever is popular today. She has no emotional attachment to anything, she has no depth or character. I'm not sure MB can teach someone how to have character.

I do have some love to her but not enough to want to save the marriage to be with her alone. If it were not for my perfect in every way daughter I would have left a long time ago. I honestly can not stand the thought of my daughter being raised by this simple shallow selfish woman. I suppose if she has a come to Jesus moment in the coming days/weeks and confesses all (total surrender to marriage) I will have to give her another shot but right now there is just not enough love for her.

I will request this thread be moved to the SAA room, please stay in touch.

EXPOSURE is you best weapon even if you don't think so at this time.

It has killed thousands of affairs and has saved many marriages.

You have a lot going for you in terms of saving your marriage. Simply EXPOSE and get into the Carrot of Plan A ... Be the best darn husband and fill her up with lovebank deposits.

Based on my story how would you recommend I go about exposing it. Also I have very little evidence of the actual text messages to her new fling. Only a message where she is talking to her friend about the messages to her fling with little detail to the message content.

RCX. I will follow you over there.
Exposure is important. But...
For now, I want to urge you to go to the bank. If she's going to the lawyer the next stop is the bank for her (unless it's prior).
You can always explain later but waywards always feel entiteld to the marital assets including the money. especially the money. put it somewhere safe and don't allow her to finance the war on your marriage with marital assets.

Your wife has succeeded to convince you that the current situation is somehow your fault. Which it absolutely isn't.

You have to realign your focus from your marriage "problems" which your WW has spoonfeeding to you to distract and blind you.

The real problem is her waywardness and affairs. You have to kill (expose!)the affair and show that you cannot be disrespected and cuckolded like that. Only then you can get back the respect and love from your wife.

Believe it or not, my wife still thanks me for the exposure and tells that her love and respect towards me increased greatly.

All assets we have are in both our name with mine as the primary, she can't touch anything without my signature. The only thing she can move is her own 401K.

She has not convinced me of anything, I freely admit that I have caused issues in our relationship (like every husband has) and I am working on my own issues. If being a better husband saves my marriage great, if not I'm a better person in the end. Even if she decides not to file for divorce the only way I will take her back is if she confesses all and starts acting like an adult. She has major accountability issues and nothing is ever her fault. She needs to understand that a marriage takes two to make or break it.

About the texts, I confronted her about it (yes I know not following protocol) she cried and confessed and showed me the texts. She was so ashamed and embarrassed since they guy she was flirting with (it was such childish flirting, inappropriate yes but not serious or sexual at all) told her he was not interested in a married woman, newly divorced woman, or single mom. She was so embarrassed that I knew and that she was rejected by the other guy. But maybe there are a few good guys left out there.

I met again with our counselor today, she basically asked me flat out "why do you want to save this marriage" referring to the fact that my wife has shown no growth whatsoever. Only the coming weeks will tell our fate, hopefully my good example will inspire her to grow hell up. If not I'm quite a catch and any adult woman would be happy to have me!

RCX, I'm glad your money's safe. They don't respect our hearts, our dignity, or our sanity, so why would they respect our financial well-being?

You don't seem to be falling prey to the gas-lighting. That's good. You seem to have an understanding of how this works. It's like a wayward sine wave. The only thing that will flatten it out is MB program with complete transparency and extraordinary precautions. "I'm so embarassed" is NOT recovery.

-- I would spell this out in no uncertain terms. In writing. Please don't leave it up to her wayward interpretation, they aren't even sane. Give her your conditions and hold her accountable. Start planning how to implement Plan B as you may need it; if you're thinking divorce anyway, this is an excellent course of action as a last effort IF you need it. (I couldn't follow that advice myself. I freely admit that. For whatever reason I couldn't muster a plan B. I often wonder what would have happened...)

This gives me great pause. My exWW to this day, even in her misery, will not consider that she might not be the best navigator of her own fate. She continues to try the same bad plans and hopes for different results. For whatever reason, the idea of implementing a plan "from a book" or concepts that have helped thousands of people save their marriages is foreign to her and beyond exploration. Some people just aren't cut out for MB. Unfortunately, without both of you involved to a high degree (it doesn't work in "just a little" MB mentality). I think this should be one of your conditions. I also think Plan B might eventually become necessary for her to see what she's giving up in her pursuit of divorce.

I applaud your confidence and I have no doubt you will be an excellent husband to one who accepts you one day. I hope that is your current wife. However, this thinking is a little premature in a way -- D takes a long time and I don't recommend dating for a while after anyway (also, if it goes this way it's going to be VERY tough for your kid, so dating too early poses serious problems, unfortunately I know first hand). If you are going to try to save your marriage, I recommend going in with both feet in the pool.

Typical.
Yes, a legitimate question and one you should have an answer to.
MB will provide you both with a way of growing TOGETHER and establishing a marriage you, your wife, and your child can be proud of.

~opt

So yesterday she was supposed to file for divorce at 12:30. She called me at 11:50 to tell me how much it sucks to have to get divorced and how if I would have been a better husband we wouldn't have to do this...etc. How she didn't want divorce because she has absolutely no feelings towards me but it is convenient for us to live together (total lie, she still has very strong feelings for me) I listened to her, didn't argue with her and just said "it doesn't have to be over". She continued with blaming me for our marriage trying to convince herself that it really was all my fault. I listened and didn't argue with her and when she finished all I said again was "it doesn't have to be over". She went on to tell me how if our marriage would be like it is now she would be completely happy and she is so mad that it took a divorce to turn me into a good person. I told her I don't blame her for being mad at me and how she was a smart woman (LB Deposit) to think my actions are all fake in an effort to avoid a divorce. I told her she was smart to not trust my words but I hoped her heart would trust my actions. Then I told her no matter if you file or not my actions will not change, I will continue to treat you like you deserve to be treated. She said well it doesn't matter because I'm filing and that's it.

After her trip to the lawyers office she was scheduled to look at some new houses for herself. She really can not afford any of these houses on her own unless our house sells quickly and for full price.

On my way home she called and said her and my daughter were at the mall (not at the gym like usual) and wondered if I wanted anything for dinner. When she got home I asked how the house hunting went, she was quite discouraged nothing was acceptable. Then I asked how did the filing go, she said she had to fill out a form and go back on Tuesday. This is not true the form is merely an application and only takes one person to complete, if she wanted to file she would have.

We had a pleasant evening and last night she snuggled up to me during the night more than ever. Even when she woke up during the night she would only scoot away a bit rather than all the way across the bed.

I really wish she had someone positive she could talk to to explain to her that all marriages are difficult at times but so worth it to work though.

Lets see how today goes

RCX,
I'm glad she didn't file. She's definitely on the fence. But what she does or doesn't do is nothing you can control. You are wise to thrive to improve your own behaviors regardless of her choices.

Sounds like she was bating you on the phone and you didn't bite. Good job. She wanted one last "see what I mean?!" before going to the lawyer's office.

I hope you have a good day with her and your daughter. Do something fun where you can talk (not the movies). Your daughter senses the tension I promise, so extra Plan A will help all the way around. I wouldn't ask about house hunting anymore or anything that has to do with divorce. That's her project that she can work on alone. You can talk about your marriage with her and how you'd like to strive with her to make it more enjoyable than ever before.

Right, but she has Divorced, Wayward, MALE, Work FRIEND instead.
I really don't know how to handle this aspect, but I think IT (I refrain from calling it a "him") is a real problem.

I'm wondering if you would speak to Joyce and Dr. Harley on the radio show. You could tell them about this "friend" at work who is having an effect on your marriage (in the ABSENCE (as far as we know)) of an affair with her. Also, voice your frustration that she has nobody in her life who views marriage positively (and she's not listening to you because she is wayward) and see if they have any guidance. --- The bonus would be that you MIGHT be able to get her to listen to the show.
The other positive influence would be Steve Harley in a phone counseling session. If you could get her to talk to him a couple times, she might just buy into the MB program with you. It's a lot of money. But so is divorce. If I could do it differently, I would have talked my ex into taking the money we would spend on lawyers fees and give the M a real shot with proven winners. Give it one year of really trying to implement the program (what's one year in a 7+ year marriage, right?). If it doesn't work you're only a year older and 4 grand in the hole (10 sessions), which is nothing compared with the thousands you will spend on a divorce.

opt

Okay, you have listened to her commiserate about how everything was your fault, how you're horrible, etc, BLAH BLAH BLAH, and you somewhat agreed with her, you can not do this again.

You don't talk to her about the divorce. You don't talk to her about the houses she is looking for. When she talks about these things, you say things like, "I will only discuss marital recovery with my wife, would you like some tea." She will get mad, but that's okay.

The reason she was so snuggly yesterday is because she is getting COMFORTABLE. A comfortable WS is BAD for your marriage.