Scotland,

Thanks for you input, I'll keep your comments in mind. However I do not think she is getting comfortable I really believe she is getting attached to me again. I talked to her about our marriage this morning and how it would be better for everyone if we just fix whats broken and stay together. She started getting mad and saying "why should I trust that you have really changed, I can't take your constant criticism any more, It will probably be the biggest mistake of my life to divorce you but I just cant take your negativity any more"

I have been quite a negative person in the past, I admit I do critique her quite a bit probably something like a "tiger mother" My father was the same way with me and I know how it made me feel so I can only imagine how it makes her feel. Like she is constantly being judged and no matter what she does it will never be acceptable to me. Our original marriage counselor pointed this out to me but I never fully understood, he said my wife is a somewhat weak person and has trouble standing up for her feelings... but I am one of the strongest personalities he has ever seen. Her homework was to strengthen her back bone and mine was to RELAX. I have settled down a bit in the past year, I quit nitpicking her on most things but I can still see how I negatively effect her. All she ever wanted was someone who accepted her for who she is and who was pleasant to be around.

However during this divorce process I have really changed my outlook on life, probably similar to a near death experience. Every day is a new adventure and always focusing on the positive, this transformation happened basically over night so I understand my wife's skepticism.

Anyway back to today, as we were talking I told her she was smart to be hesitant in believing that the changes in me are for real but I asked her to just watch my actions over time and trust her heart. She then yelled... I CAN'T TRUST MY HEART BECAUSE MY HEART LOVES YOU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW AND WANTS YOU BACK SO BAD... MY BRAIN IS THE ONLY THING KEEPING ME SAFE SO I DON'T GET HURT AGAIN! I believe when she is sleeping she is not listening to her brain and only her heart, I don't think she is getting comfortable she just lets her guard down. Also she is very sweet in the mornings before she has time to stew in all the negative feelings she has towards me during the day (or talk to her affair and divorce loving friend).

I think it is clear that my plan A is working and I just need to keep going.

\

RCX, you have a great opportunity to turn this around if you will use it. Just stopping criticizing her will not change your marriage much, though. What are you supposed to do if you have a complaint? Suck it up? That will eventually erode your love for her and create enormous resentment. A better solution is to learn how to handle complaints in a constructive positive way that complements your marriage. That is what the Marriage Builders program does. It teaches you both to complain in a productive way.

The other issue I see here is that she does not believe your changes because there is really no plan here. Having no plan is a plan to fail. I would strongly suggest you consider counseling with one of the Harleys or going through the MB program. My H and I did the latter, but since your wife needs to be SOLD on the idea of saving your marriage, you really need the help of the Harleys. If you can swing a few sessions, [$200] I predict that would make a big difference.

Yes I agree the way i see it is my homework is to:

1. Relax and enjoy life more (stop being so negative)
2. Think about things before I say them (is this criticism constructive or just nit picking)
3. Help her more around the house
4. Just listen to her (don't analyze or correct everything)

Her homework is:

1. Learn to deal with conflict in the marriage (including criticism)
2. Develop a backbone to tell me when she is unhappy
3. Learn and respect boundaries in a relationship (everyone likes it when someone else briefly flirts with them but it should end at that)
4. Communicate better (this is for both of us)

My homework has already started, we will need some help in approaching her homework. She is totally unreceptive to any sort of counseling right now, I hope after a few more weeks of plan A she will come around after she sees how devoted I am to her and our marriage. But for now the only thing I can see is to nurse our relationship back to relative health on my own. She is coming around and showing positive signs but I will need a lot of help knowing when it is the right time to start re-hab on our relationship, how to help her understand that it is our problem and will take our solution not mine or hers.

That plan is unlikely to turn things around because she is not motivated to engage in your marriage. My suggestion is to get counseling with the Harleys and have Steve Harley sell her on the idea saving your marriage. Motivation is your problem and he can be very persuasive.

You can counsel the first time with him alone and he will tell you how to get her on the phone. He doesn't counsel couples together anyway so you don't need her there. He will ask you to ask her to talk to him so he can get her perspective.

you don't need alot of counseling, you need just enough to motivate her and you are unlikely to do that on your own since she is alienated from you.

Sorry, but I have to say this is spoken like a true victim of marriage counseling.
The statistics on marriage counselors is that they are so bad they ruin marriages that they don't even know about. Something like 112% failure rate.

I jest. but it's not that much of an exaggeration.

In seriousness, I had issues with AO's for years and years. Anger management classes, counseling, praying, reading. It all added up to next to nothing until I read Dr. Harley's Lovebusters and started looking at my Behavior from a relationship and marriage (the MB marriage) way.

Apply the book to your situation and see if you don't look at it differently. DJ's, AO's, SD's. These might be areas of focus based on what you've said above.

opt

MelodyLane,

I will contact the Harleys on Monday and see what they recommend.

Optimism,

All of my homework is related to her LBs or ENs but in language I can understand. A huge LB for her is negativity, I am negative because I am so tightly wound, when I relax I am not negative and she likes to be around me. Another LB for her is criticism (DJ), of course we all need to take some criticism but I believe I give too much criticism and in the wrong tone. I also do not give enough positive reinforcement which is one of her ENs. So this is a two for one change. Help around the house is "domestic support", just listen means stop DJs and just have a conversation (another two for one)... so I think all of my homework is related to our marriage, eliminating LBs and meeting her ENs I just may not be spelling it out correctly.

When I am meeting all of her ENs SF is usually met with ease. Most of her homework is related to my EN of honesty & openness and family commitment. I know I will need help in getting her to understand the connection.

As far as I understand, she is still in an affair(?). If this is so, you need to kill it first, otherwise all the homework will be in vain.

This "I love you but I will divorce you" nonsense points strongly towards the affair. Maybe it was thrown to keep you distracted as long as she will be free and her true intentions revealed.


I think she was waiting you to stop her to bullshitting you. But you didn't - hence she still thinks that she can't respect (love) you.

Look, I wasn't the greatest husband either. I was addicted to computer games, sometimes quite lazy, independent behaviour etc etc. But the turning point for our marriage was the moment when I finally understood that my wifes affairs have nothing to do with me and I stood up for my self.

RCX, I admit I tend to hold "marriage" counselors in very low esteem. So, I should have prefaced my statement with that disclosure.
I really like that you have translated the information/advice to the MB approach. I just think it's more effective that way. I think it's easier to see how important it is to really adopt different behaviors for real and for ever, if we want to have healthy and happy relationships. So many times the same advice tends to lead to temporary changes (at least it did with me); but once I heard some of the same things, in context of MB principles and philosophies as a whole, the effect was more powerful.

I would only mention that I believe you are right that we all need to be able to take some criticism. However, I believe I've heard Dr. Harley say that we simply cannot be criticizing our spouses. That's where POJA comes in. It's where Selfish Demands turn into respectful requests. --Just trying to give you the MB slant on a comment made above.

I hope the rest of your weekend went well. Did you get any UA time in? Was your wife receptive at all to some LB deposits?
Have you read an article here on "friends and enemies of good conversation"? That would be very beneficial to you in your quest to increase the effectiveness of your communication with your wife, I believe.

opt

I agree with this BTW. But Recon, if RCX is in Plan A wouldn't the "homework" efforts still be important to maintain? IOW, I don't believe the homework effort (or trying to eliminate LB's, trying to be the best husband possible) are ever in Vain. They may not net immediate results, but are still important for inherent reasons. I also think at the very least he has her questioning her own waywardness.

Plan A, and snoop like crazy, no?

opt

Still snooping like crazy but as far as I can tell there was/is no affair just some flirting. It was IB and disrespectful to me but nothing beyond immature flirting. It didn't go anywhere as the OM was not interested in her. I'm keeping a close eye on her but so far nothing else.

She is not acting like there is anyone in particular to replace me, its more like she is just excited at the thought of being taken out on dates and wined and dined... like she just wants that new relationship smell back. She wants someone, anyone new. And its the same way with everything, she is excited about moving to a new house and having new neighbors... like she is just bored. Somehow she has the idea that divorce will be easy and fun. I have told her that I want the same thing (going on dates with her and changing our lives) and we could do it together but she says no its too late, I'm not risking it any more. You will be great for a month or two but then go back to your old self again.

As I mentioned we have had a rough time in our marriage, it got better then worse, then better then worse. It wasn't until a few weeks ago that I finally "got it". I have been a completely different person since then but she doesn't believe it and thinks all the changes will return to the old me soon. This weekend I told her how our "good" marriage counselor (the one who used methods similar to MB) commented on how I "finally got it" and seemed like a "completely different person". She teared up and looked lovingly into my eyes, but then pulled back and said she still didn't believe me.

I'm confident my "plan a" is working with her but its almost like she is using "plan b" on me at the same time.

I think you are right, optimism. Plan A it is.

But this


is not exactly plan A. Especially item 4. If she says that all is RCX-s fault - should he listen and nod?

Mr_Recon6mo,

My "homework" is all about eliminating her LBs and meeting her ENs but in my words. Just listen does not mean be a door mat for when she wants to attack me (she rarely attacks me anyway), it means just listen to the story she is telling... not the words she is saying. If she is talking about how she wants to go on a vacation just hear that she wants to spend some alone time with me to relax and get closer... not reply with "we don't have time for a vacation now... "do you know how crowed the resorts are this time of year"... "I'm too busy at work to go on vacation"... etc. Instead I should just say something like "I'd like that, lets plan something together".

RCX,
I'm short on time but I just wanted to say your above post is a very good example of the "friends and enemies of good conversation" -- it appears you are familiar with the concepts so that is very good. I'm encouraged by that and hope you can continue to consistently stay in Plan A for now.
I think you said you might write e-mail to the Harleys and listen to the show. I still think that would be a very wise idea, hopefully they will talk to you on the phone; then if you were to play the interview for your wife I believe that would have some positive influence over her waywardness.

Your wife unfortunately reminds me a lot of my ex. I was able to kill an affair of hers for the most part, but she got that taste in her mouth and continued to act like a teenager in heat, wanting go out, having male friends, drinking- it turned out to be more than I could bear. I hope you have more strength & patience & resolve than I did. I admit I had little motivation as the reality is that there were also other factors at play, but I can see how the plans (like more plan a and then plan b) might have worked if I had stuck with them. So, that's just experienced "advice" for you.

In my experience on this board (and I admit I'm obviously no expert -- I consider myself more comfortable with the BASIC concepts, not so much the infidelity stuff), there is a certain amount of concern that we betrayeds don't become doomats in our Plan A. It's a fine line and comes down to boundaries and making it clear to the wayward what we will tolerate. I've brought that up with you before. It's not a lovebuster to protect yourself, your marriage, your children, or your wife. I think you understand that. Others here may try to reinforce that and that's good because it certainly bears repeating.

opt

So as I mentioned earlier, on Sunday I had told her that I had gone back to our old MC for advice. I told her how our MC had seen big changes in me and was quite impressed. My wife blew it off and said I was lying, I asked her if she would go with me to a session this week and she said no.

Well yesterday she called and said if I still wanted to go to see the MC she would go with me. I asked why she wanted to go and said if it was just to appease me to not do it. She said she had some doubt that a divorce was the right thing to do and she wanted to see if the counselor really thought my changes were real. I was elated and scheduled an appointment... well sometime between 10am when she called me and 3pm when our appt. was her mindset had completely changed and there was no other option besides divorce. The session did not go well, she was unwilling believe that I could change this much (the therapist supported me and told her how I really did understand my role in our cycle). She refused to see her role in our cycle and she blamed me for every problem in our marriage. The counselor asked her if she thought she was perfect and didn't have any role in any of the problems in our marriage. Her response was "well no one at work ever has a problem with me so no I don't see how I could be the problem".

After the session I talked with the therapist for a bit, she didn't know what to think. She only said "she is not thinking clearly or making any sense", but also said she was not acting the way she would if she were involved in an affair. I agreed and said it seems like she is at a cross roads where she cant decide if she wants her real life with me or a fantasy life without me. The therapist thought and said maybe... "but clearly she is delusional of what a divorce is like"

My wife is a woman who can be the kindest sweetest most loving woman I have ever met, and the next day she can be a cold heartless, soul-less robot. I'm not sure what to think anymore. She is set to file again today, she did't go through with it last Friday, and yesterday she had considerable doubt in her mind. I know that deep down she does not want to get divorced, but I think she is so tangled in her thoughts and feelings she doesn't know which way is up. If she does file today I think I will just keep up what I am doing but quietly prepare for war. The bigger question is what do I do if she does not file today, what if she stalls again?

You need to expose, my friend.

- you are wasting your time and money in counseling while her affair is still on.

- her affair is on. Her fluctuating between divorce (read: OM) and you is a result of an ongoing affair. Her foggy mind thinks that there is a future with OM, at the same time she knows that she is a married woman and shouldn't pursue other men and that she should stay married to you. Plus all the benefits that come with the marriage. Blaming you all the time is just gaslighting. I know it, I used the same weapons against my husband.

- exposing her affair would be the first step towards defogging. She needs a reality check and you cannot talk sense to her yourself nor cannot any MC you are using. Your only priority right now should be to expose the affair. If you are worried about losing your wife because of expose think this - you have already lost her, to OM and affairland, this is not the woman you married nor is she one you would want to continue to be married anyway.

- OM workplace (HR, boss) and family, WW's family and friends, your mutual friends - find the contacts and expose it. You do not know who will or will not support you and exposure is not about support but revealing important information, because affairs thrive in secrecy! This affair is far less likely to continue when everyone knows about it.

- do you have Surviving an Affair by Dr Harley?

- Read about Exposure 101
- How to PLan A properly during the time, read this: Carrot and Stick of Plan A

I will bump them up for you.

Recon, I'm glad you're involved here because I'm at a loss on what to tell rcx about the exposure part. I believe you are right, but I think he has little if any evidence to expose. The original OM is out of the picture supposedly (convincingly at least). I do believe there is someone or many at work who are, at the very least, a cheering section for Mrs. RCX, but that's a difficult thing to expose, no? See, I had the same damned problem. My ex was wayward with the neighbor. Once that was over it was this "friend" and that "friend" - all males. I couldn't tolerate another male "friend" because of the growing track record, but how do you "expose" (to a bunch of normal idiots in real life) that your wife has a "friend" that she smokes with every morning? That was one of my failures and I hope RCX can avoid it. Divorce sucks.
...
It's a puzzle to me and I hope someone can help RCX better than me.


RCX, I picked out a couple of lines that jumped out at me yesterday but I haven't had a chance to post until now.


This indicates, as you have suspected, something is going on at work. Is it possible that the whole "he isn't into you" thing was a clever ruse to throw you off the trail? Waywards will go to quite the extreme to cover up their affairs. Have you ever visited your wife at work? Have you ever met any of these people?

Exactly my point about marriage counselors. They simply don't know the first thing about adultery. That she isn't making any sense is EXACTLY proof that she's in an affair. Good grief. There used to be a famous quotes of WS's thread. We should start a famous quotes of "marriage" counselors thread. Mine compared MB with DIONETICS of all things. Without having read a single word Dr. Harley had ever written. I'm telling you they just don't get infidelity.

She is the best chance you have at having a happy loving marriage, believe it or not. She's the mother of your child and that counts for a whole lot. You are also the best chance she has at being happy, although the fog has got her right now; Plan A is the best course of action to get that in her head, even if she just files it away in long term memory for now.


This is the fog. She's wayward. In one way or another, she's wayward. She wants the best of both worlds as Recon6 is saying above and Scotty stated a few days ago. She wants the security you offer and she wants to be party girl with her work friend(s).


She could continue to go back and forth a hundred times. You can not control her, rcx. You can't control her actions. You can lead by example, and gently persuade, but if she decides to file, then she files. Divorce takes a long time. You can stall it. You still have time even within the filing date and even the first court date to keep your plan A going and possibly even Plan B. She may even decide to move out at some point (a built in Plan B opportunity for you). But take one day at a time.

But none of that changes the fact that you are in a quest to be the best RCX you can be and to do everything you can to save the marriage for you and your daughter and for your wife who currently seems to be away on vacation. Be the pillar of strength and conviction. Know you're doing the right thing for the right reasons. Let her crash and burn with her loser friends and poor stupid teenage choices. With patience and perseverance and strength, you will win this marathon. You're on the good side of this and you will win. You're daughter is watching.

opt

What I would do immediately:

1. expose her previous affair. Past indiscressions are as important to reveal as current ones, so that BS's can keep a close eye on their WS's and actually know the truth about their past. This affair needs to be exposed to OMW, his family and WW's family and friends and mutual friends. OM may be out of the picture but this OM AND your WW are still a threat to other people's marriages and your WW needs to know that this is a no-go.

2. find out as much information about who is this scumbag your WS is texting. You claimed to see the texts. So? Number, name? Install a suitable keylogger for the computer and her phone, too. And VAR - voice activated recorder - in her car.

As soon as you have found out WHO the person is, you should expose it to the same range of people: OMW, family, your WW family and your mutual friends.

Do you have children? They also need to know: how to tell children is covered also under Exposure 101 thread.

3. At the same time don't forget Plan A (read the thread link I posted) and do not reveal your plans to WW.

You need to show them scums that this is not the way to treat you and your marriage and there will be consequences.

My H did an excellent exposure. He said to me first that I was free to do whatever I wished, and that he will divorce me. The next minute I had a furious OM on the chat who said: wtf, your H just sent an e-mail to my wife! My life is ruined thanks to him! And now he is not man enough to pick up his phone!

My next thought was - look, who's whining here... and who ruined who's life, and who are you to say who is man enough..

The exposure did the trick to reveal OM in his true colours and also did the trick to show ME who is the MAN here!

So a new twist to the story, I thought she only had to fill out a simple piece of paper last Friday to file for divorce but did not do that. What really happened is she filled out multiple pieces of paper at the lawyers office and brought one home to complete. She actually did start the divorce process on Friday and finalized the application yesterday so she is for real.

I have never stopped snooping and have not found anything since the original texts, which were more stupid than inappropriate. The other man was not interested in her at all. I see no signs of anything going on with anyone else. She is always available to talk during the day, and she is on a very rigid schedule. Like I said I will keep snooping but so far nothing else. I know you all think I am being naive but I promise you I am one of the most skeptical people you will ever meet and my wife is also one of the worst liars I have ever met.

The fog she is in is more of a rage against me not like the fog of being in lust (like the EA she had a few years ago). She seems to think that I could have been a good person all along but held out until she filed for divorce. She doesn't seem to understand that it's challenging moments in life that make people develop into themselves. Not that I was a terrible husband, I just used a few most powerful LBs against her while not meeting her most ENs for a period of time.

Until I find something new I will just continue with plan A and hope for the best. I truly believe when her rage wears off she will stop to look around and see what she is doing. Right now her walls are built up so high that she can not see what is in front of her.

How exactly do you snoop? Do you have a constant access to his phone activity, internet activity? VAR in her car?

rcx,
naivity (?sp) has nothing to do with it. It's experience. People come here all the time with similar stories swearing up and down their spouses aren't in affairs, only to find at a later date that they were being gaslighted to the max. We're just trying to help you cover all the angles, and in this case the most destructive one (and most likely just given the SYMptoms).

Do you have a VAR in her car?

In the meantime. suppose you're right and it's just a case of she's really sick of you. okay fine. she filed. now you continue to plan A. You still don't have to participate in her little scheme to destroy your marriage and your family. You can keep trying. The dates will come and go. She started the process and she can end it any time. Don't panic. Keep up your game plan.

(and keep getting snooping).

opt