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I post this to share my thoughts over an experience which has been enlightening, but at the same time very difficult.

I'm Catholic and going through an annulment. It has not been an easy experience at all and I'm a little nervous because of where it may head or the possible outcome.

Quick summary: Married in the Church in 2001, deployed 2003/2005, had 3 kids, came home from last deployment, discovered wife had been dating strangers on the internet and she wanted a D. Agreed to it foolishly and against all the advice given on MB. I was a classic case of what not to do.

I started dating again, too soon, but eventually healed. Met a wonderful woman in 2008 and I married her in 2010.

I haven't been able to marry her in the Church. Catholics don't believe in divorce. The translation from Mathew is interpretted different by Catholics. Catholics believe that a Christian marriage can't be broken by man. So the only way to marry in the Church again is to establish and prove that the marriage wasn't valid to begin with.

This requires proof, witnesses, and a hearing. I have to show that the sacrament was invalid either because of maturity, mental illness, secrecy (such as cheating on the fiance or a plan to do so after marriage), or other reasons.

So this has made me examine the idea of sacramental marriage all together.

It's been an emotional roller coaster. All I can say is that the ordeal will make my church marriage to my current wife that much more special.

I go into it now with a complete understanding of the deep commitment of marriage. There is no such thing as, "we may not work out." All there is is, "how do we get through these things together."

So on one end I wish I didn't have to go through this, but on the other end I see the value in emphasizing that there is no such thing as divorce for Catholics and the commitment in marriage truly is one that is intended to be lifelong. A legal document doesn't end it. That is man's law.

I found out that the difference between the Protestant and Catholic interpretations of the scripture in Mathew that permits divorce in case of sexual infidelity boils down to the translation of the Greek word pornea. From what I've read it specifically means blood relations and not sexual infidelity.
Regardless of where you fall in the spectrum or in your beliefs, I think there is great value in emphasizing the truly beautiful commitment that is marriage as a sacrament.

Anyone else ever been through this process?

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My parents went through the annulment process and were granted one when I was about 28 yrs old!

So I guess my two sisters and I were born out of wedlock since the marriage, according to the Catholic Church, never existed.

My parents annulment made me a Bas t ard child. Nice Huh!

My parents infidelity, subsequent divorce, and annulment.... gifts that have never stopped giving.

Last edited by HerPapaBear; 03/25/12 08:42 PM.




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I am not Catholic but after reading your post, found this very informative and well written explanation of it all
and
HerPapaBear....at the bottom of the page it explains that an annullment does not effect the legitimacy of the children and why.

Read it!

http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-annulment.html







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Reading,

Thanks, but I understand , all too well, the teachings of the Catholic Church. I grew up with it, and I've studied it well!

I do love the double talk as quoted in the reference materials you linked;
Originally Posted by beginningcatholic.com
"Does annulment make our children illegitimate?"

No � children of a marriage that's determined to be invalid by a Catholic annulment, are still legitimate. (Code of Canon Law, canon 1137)

When a couple marries, they assume the marriage is valid and was entered into in good faith. Children conceived under this assumption of a valid marriage, are considered to be legitimate.

This fact does not change even if the marriage is later found to be not valid.

In the United States, Catholic annulment does not affect any state civil laws. It is unrelated to civil concerns such as illegitimacy, child custody, alimony, visitation rights, or division of property.


Say what,,,,,

If it's a valid marriage, the children are valid too....
WOW,
what insight!
In my case, they acknowledged, it was to late to abort a 16 year old son.

If it's later determined to be an invalid marriage , the children are still validly legitimate.
OK,
gee,
thanks!

So I'm a legitimate, valid, bas t ard, thanks to the Catholic Church and my, now, never married parents.

Maybe the canon code of law allows for an annulment of parents. Could I annul my parents?? Now there's a thought...

I mean geesh, these excuses for annulling a marriage, would apply in my case too wouldn't they;

Originally Posted by beginningcatholic.com
Some common reasons for annulment in the Catholic Church are:

1. At least one partner didn't fully & freely consent.
2. Someone wasn't mature enough to understand the full extent of what they were doing.
3. There was never intent to be faithful.

Hmmmmmm.

(I know, I know, lots of sarcasm,
sorry HLD I know this wasn't the direction you intended the thread to go, but I have a bone to pick with the church and with my parents on this one.)





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HPB,

I think you're misunderstanding what the church is saying. A sacrament can't be valid if one or both parties enters into it with serious flaws or secrets.

My parents marriage was annuled since my dad didn't intend to remain faithful from the very beginning, which showed he had no understanding of sacramental marriage and monogamy.

Everything I've read is that children born to the marriage, or any children for that matter, are not "illegitimate" which is a legal, not church or Christian term.

The annulment isn't of the parents, but it is an acknowledgement that the sacrament wasn't valid from the start because the Church doesn't believe in divorce.

I find the process tough and a bit painful, but at the same time it has strengethened my current wife and I and we see the real value in entering the sacrament with a lifetime mindset.

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Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
HPB,

I think you're misunderstanding what the church is saying.

HLD,

I have no misunderstandings as it relates to the Catholic Church's teachings.

Let's just say that my studies in Church history are very extensive.

I'm sorry if you didn't recognize it, but my posts were intended to be read as (poor) dry, sarcastic humor.

If you'd like my serious thoughts, here goes;

I find it insulting that any religious organization would allow itself to take Deut 24:1 and Matt 5:27-48 .... and about one thousand years after Jesus preached the sermon on the mount, twist them into a canonized law of men that entitles them to annul the sacrament of marriage. The council that originally created the laws allowing for annulment in the Catholic church did so to eliminate incestuous marriages and the arranged marriages of adolescent girls 8-15 years of age. It was never intended to be used as it it's used today, in the manner that my parents used it. I would argue the same in your case as well. What religious institutions fail to remember is that men do not hold the power over the Sacraments, because they were not created by men. I love to read Job chapters 38 thru 42, paying close attention to 38:33 I believe God speaks these same words to all men today.

...just my .02


HLD, you have every right to divorce and remarry, and I wish you well with your future wife. I just encourage you to study what Jesus taught us, and not get hung up on the laws created by men to excuse our sins.






Last edited by HerPapaBear; 03/27/12 02:35 PM. Reason: added a line and corrected some wording




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I just wanted to say .. that even though i am christian ... im not religious.

I believe that people have abused gods word in most religions/denominations and therefore dont have much desire to follow a particular church/denomination.

From my perspective god speaks to me through his word (the bible when im reading it) and HE gives me insight on what is said in it through prayer (before i read it). So to me .. Christianity is about believing in whats already been done .. and Religion is about DOING the right things to get to heaven in mans eyes.

Far too many rules and regulations in mans law that surrounds the christianity beliefs and I feel they get distorted and bent into whatever each particular "religious sect" wants it to be.

Sorry if I am a bit blunt on this.

MNG

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HTLD, HPB said it best. i too am Catholic and believe the Sacrament of Marriage is sacred. once done, it cannot be undone. OTOH, faced w/ a M to my WW with whom i had 5 children, what do i do? in the end my WW made a choice to end our M. i am powerless to change it. as much as i believe in the Sacraments, it will either be annulment for me or re-marry (if i get there) outside the church. i can understand your quandary. it is all very confusing. we can only do what we think is the right thing, Church or no Church.

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helpthelostdads,
I feel great admiration for you. Faith is just not one of those readily debated subjects. HerPappaBear, I read the hurt in your words and I can understand precisely why you feel that frustration with the Catholic Church process. But what I found admirable in helpthelostdads post is his belief in marriage as a Sacrament. The men on this earth that administer the Church may be wrong, but finding VALUE in marriage as a Sacrament is something I admire.
HPB, you do yourself a great disservice to look upon yourself as a b**[censored]. You do too much good here.
I know plenty of them in real life whose parents were married when they were conceived and still are married.
Many of them choose to manipulate married women with their skills.
An MB'r who chooses along with his / her spouse to see marriage as a Sacrament is definitely on the right path.

Hurting Turkey
ME: 57 Reforming Verbal Abuser
SHE: 50 WW who refuses to admit the details
DD # 1: April 26, 2009
Identified AP #1 on 2/1/2011 (a month after he died... how convenient)
DD # 2: October 15, 2010
AP # 2 never admitted or identified to this day
Hers: DS 23 and 19
Mine: DD 30, DS 29, 23
Ours: DS 12

Surviving. But not really living.

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Talked to the deacon today who is my advocate.

He basically boiled my case down to this: I was a non-practicing Catholic when I dated and decided to marry my WXW. Why in the heck would I marry someone within the Church if a) she was not religious and sacramental marriage had no meaning to her and b) I wasn't practicing my faith.

The point was that if I was practicing, abiding by the teachings of Christ and the Church, and trying to live my faith and holding it as first and foremost in my life that I would have never entered into this marriage.

I've come to this realization on my own. I very much see the value of annulment and don't believe the problem is in the annulmnet process, but in the fact that it is too easy to get married with the Church's blessing.

The deacon believes that too many marriages are approved that shouldn't be when there is disaster written all over them.

He told me that some people enter into marriage while being encouraged by the other person to engage in sexually forbidden things (such as threesomes) or into marriages like my case where they are viewed as a formality or a "blessing" and not what it truly is, which is a full on sacrament that is an eternal engagement made with God at the center.

I recognize that many people have issues with religion in general and the Catholic Church in particular. That's all fine.

But I know that I've walked through a significant portion of my life without letting Christ be my guide and it is where I've made the biggest mistakes I've ever made. All my major personal heartaches and pain have come from straying from what I've been taught and in not following the teachings of the Church or of Christ (where the Church draws its laws/rules).

Again, I'm not looking to engage in a Catholic vs Protestant thing. I'm merely sharing my personal journey and expressing how important it is to view marriage as a holy sacrament before entering into it and maintaining it as such after getting married.

It's all about the God centered marriage. Do that and you can't go wrong.

Some here will disagree and I'm not attacking that.

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We are moving this to the Other Topics forum. Carry on!

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Wow, you think it's too EASY to get married with the church's blessings?

One of the reasons I am currently in a common law marraige is the Catholic church and their rules and such that would have been required of me to marry in the church. I was devoutly not religous and not willing to sign away the souls of my unborn children to the catholics, hence they would not marry us. And, they said they would have removed his parents as members or some such as that.

We're now Baptist and planning a church wedding, but from my attempted brush with marriage in the catholicism it wasn't easy.

(my mom's family is catholic and if we do proceed with having a child it's god parents would be devoutly catholic - my cousin who was almost a priest prior to his marriage. I've softened up over the years, and due to the signifigant risks to my health, including paralysis and death, they're the most kind, giving people with a huge family who really would treat it like their own)

Edited because I was being mean because I"m grumpy today.

Last edited by HopefulNC; 03/27/12 07:44 PM.

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Originally Posted by helpthelostdads
I very much see the value of annulment and don't believe the problem is in the annulmnet process, but in the fact that it is too easy to get married with the Church's blessing.

My parents had been married for 20 years when it was legally dissolved. The Catholic Church agreed to annul the marriage 10 years later.

Regardless of the condition of the marriage when it was dissolved, they were both of sound mind and body when they entered into the union. My dad was a devout Catholic that wouldn't even attend weddings of his friends if they weren't in the Catholic Church. My mom actually went into the Convent for several years after high school. They both were practicing their faith and knew what the Sacrament of marriage meant prior to their union.

Yet they were granted an annulment!

Any marriage that exists between a man and a woman is called a "Natural Marriage" by the Catholic Church. For the marriage to be a "Sacramental Marriage" in the Catholic Church, both people must have been baptised by the Catholic Church.

My parents met this reqirement also.

Yet they were granted an annulment!


There is a "Major" problem with the annulment process, especially given these facts!


I have asked the Church for any Scripture that supports the annulment concept and processes.

<the crickets are all I hear>




Please know I'm grateful for anyone who beleives in the sanctity of a marriage between a man and a woman. They have 100% of my support. HLD has 100% of my admiration and support in this area as well!

However, the concept of annulment will never have my support. No matter how the Church justifies it, IMO it is errant!

(please understand, I'm not attacking the Catholic Church, they do many good things, but I am challenging their arrogant policy of annulments)







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It has to do with the scripture that no man can break what God has joined. That means that the only way that man can break such a bond is to declare that the marriage wasn't valid from the beginning.

That means that a truly sacramental marriage can't be broken.

I found a site that clearly addresses the scripture on the matter. "Annulment" doesn't appear anywhere in scripture. Marriage, however, does, and the statement by Jesus about it is with no compromise.

Therefore, the only way one can marry within the church is to be free to do so and with no previous Christian marriage.

You don't need to be baptized Catholic to be married in the Church. My ex wasn't baptized Catholic.

I'll look for the link.

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This is a good article stating the biblican reasons behind Catholic views on marriage.

I don't intend to start a PvsC war. I'm simply providing a link so that we can perhaps understand each other.

I have a good Jewish friend. He told me that he can declare himself divorced in the Temple and send his wife out as long as he provides her food and water.

I challenged him on this and he's going to look into it. I asked him that if it truly is that easy, then you could never commit adultery since you can always declare as a wayward that you're divorced and then proceed with breaking your vows.

He's going to look into it.

So I don't proclaim to be an expert.

This is a good link to open discussion on the matter. My guess is that many here won't agree with the Catholic view, but that's ok.

I get it. I understand where the Church is coming from.

Unless we speak Greek, Latin, Hebrew, or Aramaic, we'll have to rely on the scholars who translated the original texts.

http://www.holytrinityparish.net/Links/DivorceAnnulments.pdf

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If you're not baptized Catholic you have to go through couseling and commit to raising your children in the catholic faith.

I will be honest and say I have no use for hte catholic faith.

And, I do read somewhat fluent Hebrew. I was raised Messianic Jewish.


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HerPapa,

"Any marriage that exists between a man and a woman is called a "Natural Marriage" by the Catholic Church. For the marriage to be a "Sacramental Marriage" in the Catholic Church, both people must have been baptised by the Catholic Church."

I believe that is incorrect. The requirement in regard to Baptism is simply to have been baptised, whether in the Catholic or a non-Catholic church. My wife and I married in the Catholic church in 1969. I am catholic and she is Methodist. She went through consults with our priest then and we both had several interviews. We had a wedding Mass, and our marriage is a sacramental marriage, even tho it occured back then. Otherwise it would have been denied.

Helpforlost... I am not up on annulment, except that I believe it can be granted for serious reason based on the intent or dishonesty of either or both parties at the time of marriage. I think you are going to hear a broad range of feelings and beliefs on this, but what it will come down to is your own sense of your faith as well as satisfying canon law. You may need to consult the bishop in your diocese for more guidance and explanation. I do feel the church has changed dramatically for the better even over the last 10 years. I believe these changes are not to make things more convenient for Catholics, but to place more of an emphasis on God's infinate mercy. Hence, the celebration of Divine Mercy on the Sunday after Easter. Also, I don't really believe that it is "too easy" to get married in the chruch, or any faith for that matter. I bleive that most churches provide sufficient scrutiny couples desiring to marry. The problem is that civil law and society make it almost too easy to divorce!

I know this doesn't directly address your concern, but just hoping that more consult with the priests or bishop in your area and the dictates of your conscience will lead you and your wife to an acceptable resolution. As I read awhile ago, we are not expected to be perfect in the practice of our faith (catholic or not), but we are expected to be 'perfectable'.

The Best,

Tom

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HopefulInc,

What is the Jewish view on marriage? I asked my Jewish friend this question and he didn�t have a solid answer for me and is going to consult his Rabbi. I�m asking because I�m curious, nothing more.

To everyone else:

I like the idea of making marriage a very serious sacrament that isn�t to be entered into lightly and I also like the idea that it isn�t to be left lightly. I really like the idea that marriage is un-dissolvable and that problems in marriage are to be dealt with by saying, �how do we get through this/work this out� vs �how do I get out of this.�

We live in a society that makes divorce way too easy, and I don�t think you have to be religious to have that view.

I think that no matter which faith you believe in we can all agree on the following statement: Marriage is sacred and should be dealt with in such a manner. It isn�t to be entered into casually or exited likewise.

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Born and raised Catholic... I have to wonder if I had only been exposed to Catholocism that my views would be different?

Don't know. I find most Catholics to be very kind, and some of the least judgmental people of faith I have ever conversed with... a far stretch from the days of burning witches (though, that isn't an exclusively Catholic activity).


One thing that I'm enjoying about watching this conversation is that it is really exhibiting part of the separation of marital contracts; the marital contract of faith, and the marital contract of law.

They don't always work in concert, do they?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Jewish religion allows for divorce but a man must release his wife with 'a get' document which releases her to other men.
It is given after a legal divorce.

Some men with hold them and their devout wives are not free to remarry in the faith until they get one.

Women do not give them to their husbands. They must hope he gives one to them to remarry.







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