Opt, I understand your concerns about lovebusting behaviours, showing up in a gym might fly his WW to the moon, but I wouldn't worry about that, really, this is typical WW anger and this comes and goes as the rest of her moodswings. I don't remember exactly how many times I said to my BH that "that's IT!!! NOW you RUINED IT!" but I said it a lot. Never changed a thing, actually.

I try to encourage RCX to find out WHAT is going on. Another possible solution is to send someone else who RCX trusts to see what is going on in the gym instead of himself. This has to be someone WW doesn't know, but who can spend some time close to her and this female friend and tape what they are talking about. This might work perfectly.

Recon,

I have already done this, the wife of my friend works out there too she said my wife is always with the other woman and OW's sister. They just complain about men and how they don't need them and would be better off alone. They all support each other saying how any man would be so happy to have any one of them and their husbands don't or didn't deserve them but no talk about any new men or dating cheating...etc. They just want to have a divorced wives club. Like I said, it seems as if she just wants to shed all responsibility of being an adult and go back to being 16 again.

Last night was a pleasant night and she was quite talkative. We had fairly intimate conversation for about an hour before she went to bed. She actually drove the conversation telling me stories about her childhood and how certain things still comfort her today, we talked about happy things in our marriage etc. Then during the night she ended up coming over to my side of the bed for most of the night.

Today she has been very pleasant texting me quite a few times just to make small talk.

Its so confusing...

Hang in there, it is hard, I understand, but Plan A is working, keep it up. Your next move should be to get her away from these witches and start spending ALL your leisure time together.

We will have a long weekend this week, I will try to plan some activities for us to be alone together. I know she wants to do some more spring cleaning so this would be a good opportunity for me. I will also try to sneak in an excuse to go shopping with her (she loves when I go shopping with her).

It seems as if she is teetering between withdrawal and conflict most of the time, although at some points it seems as if she forgets herself and is actually in intimacy (like this morning and on Sunday). I wonder if this is because her capacity for conflict is so small. She absolutely hates and avoids conflict at all costs so maybe the journey through the conflict state is very short??

I know I should just stop thinking and keep doing my plan A

I don't have much to add right now RCX. But I wanted to suppose for a second that there is indeed no actual OM in the flesh, so to speak.
In that case, I have high hopes for your plan A based on the past couple of posts. I know you can keep it up and remain consistent. Every time she texts YOU she's coming to you as a companion. Leisure time and sharing her thoughts with YOU an not another man/person/vampire.

I believe that given time and consistent behavior (on both of your parts, in the manners described above will eventually win out over negative immature, and illogical thinking in the typical lets-all-get-divorced club. I do believe that.

I wanted to ask if you ever pursued anything with the parents (sorry if I missed it), or if you have a plan.

I would love to see you encourage her to go shipping with you. Sneaking sounds to IB to me, in your situation (in mine too - I don't like surprises however innocent even in my dating relationship). Can I suggest doing some recon in the area? Does she need new shoes, blouses, jeans, hats, undies? Specifically state "I have a feeling you're due for a new pair of ________, I'd really like to go with you to pick some out." She might think it's insincere at first - that would be very much to be expected. Start planting a seed that you have realized how much you like and miss being with her and even if it is something you used to consider boring, you now don't consider it boring anymore, because you're with her and you always enjoy yourself when you're with her. ---make sense?---

opt

I am confident that I can continue my behavior but her's is very random. Yesterday she was caring and nice, today she is cold and snotty. Its times like this that I feel like I am being a doormat for her and loosing her respect. I will just remain calm and pleasant but firm and confident.

These times also makes me question if our marriage will ever work? Unless something drastic comes over her I can almost guarantee she would never agree to have extraordinary precautions in our marriage, as this would be too much of a burden on her. She is of the mindset that marriages are free and should take no work to maintain whatsoever. She has never acknowledged her role in the difficulties in our marriage and sticks to the "No one at work has any problem with me so why should you" defense. Through out this process I have asked her many times why she wants a divorce her most common response is "I don't want to have to worry about anyone but myself"

I know she has not really considered what it will mean to be divorced by the way she talks. Like this weekend when she got sick, she said "if this happens after the divorce you will have to come over and take care of us (her and my daughter)", her biggest concern is if she will be able to find a new house up to her standards within her price range. The way she talks about things and people, including family... everything is disposable to her. She said one reason she wants a divorce is because I don't respect her wishes to build a new house or have another baby. She wanted to have another child like 2 weeks after the last time she called a divorce lawyer!! She goes from boiling hot to absolute zero in a mater of seconds!

As of now we are still sleeping in the same bed, eating together and talking like normal. The only difference is that we don't kiss, hug or have sex anymore. Do you think my plan A will backfire because she is getting the idea that divorce will be the same as marriage except she doesn't have to care for me?

Last weekend she told me she missed me when I went to see my family without her. I am not sure if this was genuine or was she just being nice to me to cover up for feeling guilty about me looking at her texts? I have to travel for work for a few days next week, maybe this will be a little taste of plan B, maybe she will realize what I mean to her?

I am really in need of some advice/support today

The best way to sell the programme to her is to show her the benefits, how it works for you, she has to see what's it in there for her. You are doing well, this takes some time.

Have you talked to her about the divorce - that you do not want to divorce her but make it work? (However, MB is not a marriage at all costs, so you have to decide yourself if YOU want to be married to such a freeloader at the first place.)

Have you also told her what it would be like when you were not married anymore? Sort of given her the glimpse of her future reality?

Do you snoop openly? How does she know that you have seen her text messages? You should snoop so that she does not know, otherwise she knows where to outsmart you..

I have not shown her the MB program yet, any time we talk about how I want to salvage our marriage she gets irate and says "see you still don't respect what I want". She is so focused on finally "getting something she wants" or "getting her way" that its like she wants a divorce at all costs. I will have to be patient and wait for the right opportunity where she shows an opening to bring it up.

I may get my chance when we get the details of selling our house. I don't think she realizes how much of our equity will be eaten up by commission and taxes, this will kill her plans to build her new home. Its sad that the only reason she may give our marriage another shot is because it is financially beneficial to do so.

We have talked a bit about divorced life and she seems to think it will all be happy times. She will finally be free from the terrible monster of a husband that I am. I am considering asking a friend of hers who recently went through a divorce (her husband had been cheating for years) to talk to her about how much of a change it is and how she really wanted to work things out but her husband wouldn't come around. This woman is a very responsible person who I have a lot of respect for, not a divorce cheerleader. What are your thoughts?

I know that I should expect this to be a roller coaster of emotions for both of us. We will be taking one step back for every step forward for some time while we both test the waters. I suppose I should view her purposely keeping her distance from me as progress since she has to concisely make an effort to avoid getting close to me. Eventually her heart will win over her mind right?

She does not know how I snoop but I did tell her that she was talking about someone in her sleep (she actually was talking in her sleep but it was about my daughter). She said she just fantasizes about meeting a great man and spending her life with him. She has told me this before and that she has done this since she was a young girl... like a teenage romance movie where awkward nerd girl meets rebel boy and they fall in love.

This is a bunch of fog, RCX, and nothing new.

Lots of WSs think that everything will be great after divorce. She can find some other guy and have YOU on the side.

Of course she doesn't want to work on the marriage, that would interfere with her new single lifestyle...

So what do you recommend? I have not found anything of use snooping, the only thing I can't see is her work phone and computer. If she is in a relationship it is only a week or two old. Like I said it seems that she is having an affair with the idea of being single.

Maybe not having me around next week will give her a taste of single life and how "GREAT" it will be?

She is likely trolling for an affair if she is not in one already.

If you are going to be gone the odds are good that she will do it then.

Continue to snoop.

RCX, I discussed your situation with my DH and we are quite confident that she is having an affair or planning to have an affair with the help of her workout partners or someone from work.

It just doesn't make ANY sense to want a divorce out of the blue. This monster talk is just SOOO common wayward talk. She seems to be in such a thick fog that I wouldn't really count on her mind or heart to change back itself. She is getting her "shot" from someone or somewhere.

Does she carry her work phone with her? Try this - http://www.okaztle.com/2011/09/hack-or-crack-password-protected-memory.html. I found it on Google. Any help for such things you can actually find online.

Any way you can put the house under surveillance? I think you GPS her car so that's good. Is she planning to have your daughter watched by anyone while you're gone? A couple of nights gone is all she needs to get the real "freedom" she's been pining for. I have concerns.

opt

A few days is nothing to a real Plan B separation. It's more like a mini vacation where she can plan all sorts of debauchery and let the housework slide for a few days.
While you're gone you have to stay in Plan A. Call her a lot. Stay in her head. Disrupt any plans she may have. Leave notes around the house. --these are all suggestions made to me by steve harley himself when my wife went away for a couple of weeks during my plan A. Can you have trusted couples or friends "stop by" to make sure she's alright without out, offer to bring dinner or take them both out? Protect her from her own lewd temptations....
opt

This is all cake-eating behavior. They are amazingly selfish. "You can't just give me the divorce I want". It's unbelievable -- what about the MARRIAGE that YOU want?
I agree with others that she is a big-time freeloader at least right now. (Another book to read for you)_. But having read the book, I believe that people can go from one phase to another, and perhaps one day she can be a real life buyer. First she has to buy into the idea that you are the best thing that ever happened to her and if she gives it up she will NOT be happy. You will NOT be coming over and taking care of her. You will be taking care of someone else, yourself, and possibly someone who cares about you and would never trust you around your ex wife. Mine envisioned vacationing together, me her, my new wife and all the kids. ummmmmm, no.

I don't know if your marriage would "ever work". I think you are doing the right thing however to fight for it until your last drop of energy is spent doing so. AS I've said, no matter how happy you can be in another relationship, it will be nothing compared to that of a strong healthy relationship with the mother of your daughter, and someone with whom you share a real history.

Do you guys do your finances together? Does she have any understanding of what it takes to just go out and buy a new house and have another baby? That you dont just wave a wand and presto it appears? Have you talked about financial goals with her. She sounds half spoiled and half ignorant. Excuse me if I'm presumptuous here.

opt

So after my mini break down yesterday something strange happened when I got home. She was very loving and sat me down to talk and told me that she really appreciated all the changes I have made in the past few weeks. She told me she was sorry for the way she had been treating me and asked me if we could just sit and talk for a while. She explained that she would be happy in our marriage the way it is now except for my "grilling" her on some things. I explained how the only reason I was "grilling" her was because of the texts I found in her phone (the flirting that fizzled out a few weeks ago) She said she understood and told me again how sorry she was and how embarrassed she still is. She said that just like my actions have proven to her that I am trying to change, her actions over the next weeks will prove to me that she is an honest woman.

The discussion was very easy and sincere so I felt this would be a good opportunity to bring up MB and how it has changed me. She listened and said she would be interested in looking at it but said something like "I think we just have too much baggage together and need a fresh start". I explained to her that we both had baggage from each other but MB has helped me let it go and how I have learned to clear out my resentment for our past. I explained how we shouldn't think of it as fixing our marriage but tearing it down and re-building it correctly.

She then went on to say that she hated being around me and tries to avoid me as much as possible, when I touch her it hurts her and she doesn't think she will ever be able to get over this. I told her I knew she was lying because I can still see the love in her eyes. I told her how when she was sick she showed me love that I had not seen in years. She started crying and said I was right but she is just so afraid of getting hurt more. I told her in the past I didn't understand how my actions hurt her but MB has taught me how they affect her. I told her that we could have a great marriage, so much better than before but it will take work from both of us. We can do it together helping each other along the way, she said something like it shouldn't be that hard and I said "do you think divorce will be easier"?

I told her I was not asking for forgiveness or another shot or to call off the divorce, all I was asking for is to let me in a little bit so we can try to start over. She told me how she was so scared to let me in and how she has already shut down and doesn't love me any more. I told her I still knew she was lying and I gave her a hug, she hugged me back. I asked if we could just talk for a bit, she agreed. I told her the reason she doesn't feel love for me is because she has not allowed me to show her any affection or talk with her. I explained how this is how intimacy in a relationship is built and maintained, she listened and seemed interested.

For the next two hours we laid in in bed while I held her and we talked about tons of stuff. I asked her how it felt for me to hold her, she said it made her feel warm and loved and safe. she said in the past when we talk I always had my arms crossed, this made her feel like I was judging her and on the attack. I explained that was just a habit and how all the men in my family just did it, I told her how happy I was that she shared this with me and how I will keep it in mind. I asked her if she could agree to just sit and talk with me while I show her some affection for a few weeks and see how it goes, she said she could not agree to that. Then I re-stated "what I meant to say is can you agree to do this until my behavior starts to make you feel un-safe in our relationship" she enthusiastically said yes!

I think all in all it was a good night, I'm not expecting anything but at least it may be a start to re-building our marriage. She seemed surprised when I told her I was not sure if I still wanted to be married to her yet. She asked why are you doing all of this then? I told her first it is the right thing to do, and second I am not doing this for you or for me but for us as a family. I told her that what we have or what we could have together is definitely worth fighting for.

Your Plan A is working, nice. However, it seems that she is unwilling to become an honest person, she is not telling you everything, although she claims to be an honest woman and expects you to just stop "grilling" her because of that. She has not come clean, yet.

yes I agree, I will keep snooping. We will go to her parents house next weekend, I will discuss this with them and ask them to support me in being the best husband I can be to their daughter. I can understand they may be disappointed with me but I think they will have to respect the fact that I want to be the best person I can be to their daughter and granddaughter.

I think you will benefit from having a call to Steve Harley, it is told here that he is the best of talkin WS's around and get them engaged to the programme. Please consider this.

Agreed. Though I'm not sure if me and WW are in recovery yet, she has made some significant improvements since we started telephone counseling with Steve. I tried implementing the MB principles myself and getting her to commit, but it wasn't working.

Steve didn't tell her much of anything that I hadn't told her (ok, he told her the same ideas but in a much more professional manner), but it was coming from a third party...and that makes a HUGE difference, especially for foggy waywards. If you can afford it, the counseling is worth it. My marriage may not be saved, but I know I helped it A LOT by talking with Steve.