Hello,

I am new here and I'm looking for some guidance and insight from you all's person experience. A little background. 18 months ago my husband decided he wanted to separate and possibly divorce. I had been suffering from major depression made worse by the anti-depressant I was on, for about 5 years. We tried traditional couples counseling for a few months but my husband was stuck thinking that since his feelings had gone away some time ago that they couldn't come back, that they had been gone too long. The first 6 months after I moved out, we did some things together but he couldn't commit to working on the relationship. Then the workload at my job exploded causing me to work 60 hours a week and plunging me back into a deep depression. I had been the one to initiate contact prior to that so since I was insanely busy and exhausted we didn't see each other and hardly talked for 5 months while I worked on getting back out of depression which I am now.

In February my husband agreed to give things one more try but that he didn't want to drag things out forever. He wanted to give trying the marriage builders way a month to 6 weeks to work. I told him I didn't want it to drag on forever either but I didn't want to put a definite deadline on it. We identified our most important emotional needs. His being: Conversation, Recreational Companionship, Sexual Fulfillment, Admiration, and Openness and Honesty. Mine are: Affection, Sexual Fulfillment, Conversation, Openness and Honesty, and Recreational Companionship. He felt nothing beyond a basic friendship for me at that point so he was not comfortable with either of us pursuing the sexual fulfillment or affection emotional needs. He's a very rare guy in that he doesn't want sex without meaning. He wants to make love not just have sex. We identified Disrespectful Judgements as being a being a love buster. It took about 2 weeks for me to stop doing that one. So we have spent 6 weeks spending 20-25 hours a week giving undivided attention to meeting each the remaining emotional needs of Conversation, Recreational Companionship, Admiration, and Openness and Honesty.

He has really enjoyed the time we have spent together and trying new or rarely done recreational activities. We have really good conversations and he says he feels like he knows me better than he ever has and the friendship closeness is even stronger. However at this point he has no sexual desire for me and doesn't even feel affectionate toward me. We have generally not gone more than one day without seeing each other but last week there were two days that we didn't and he said he wasn't super excited to see me the next time he did. Also that he doesn't have the want to hold my hand or give me a good night kiss. He feels like we have been doing all this and the fact that he isn't feeling more than what he is is a sign that he can't. He does say that ideally he would like to feel those things for me again.

I am wondering what you all's experiences have been. What is a reasonable amount of time follow the marriage builders way before saying that the feelings won't return? I would say his love bank was neutral when we started or a little in the red. It seems to be going more positive, but he wonders if there is a cap for him. Is 6 weeks enough time when starting from pretty much nothing? I know that it is different for everyone but I told him I'd see what you all had experienced. Are there ways to meet the emotional needs for affection and sexual fulfillment with how he feels? I brought up the idea of snuggling or holding hands even though he doesn't want to. He was unsure if that would feel like he was being forced to do something that didn't feel right. We do hug every time before I leave to go back to my apartment. I don't know where to go from here. I believe with every fiber of my being that his feelings can return. I just don't know what to do and I don't want to reintroduce the love buster of disrespectful judgements.

As with most people's stories there is much more than what I have said so feel free to ask any questions.

Hi hopefulheart, welcome to Marriage Builders! It is so gratifying to see someone who is using the program in its entirety! That gives me hope because that is the only way the program will work.

And you definitely need more time to make this work, but a couple of things stand out to me.

Is your husband using porn? Is he seeing someone else? Is he having an affair? And by this, I mean have you personally snooped on him to see if he is having an affair?

Has he ever told you "I love you but am not in love with you?"

How long married? Are you married? Any kids? Have either of you had an affair?

And lastly, you might want to change your screen name to something more unique. There are hundreds of "hopefulxxxx" screen names and I find it impossible to keep them straight. Changing to something more unique will help others remember your story.

Thanks MelodyLane.
He uses porn occasionally. He is not seeing anyone else. I have looked into things and he is not having an affair.

He has said, "I love you but I'm not in love with you." I know that is generally a warning sign that the person is having an affair but I have checked and he is not. He only ever dated me so sometimes I think he says things he has heard on tv or in movies. And I think the lack of experience in relationships has colored his view of how relationships actually work verses how they "should be".

We are married still. We were together for 10 years, married for 5.5 years and separated just over a year, which isn't included in those numbers. No kids. No affairs on either side.

When you say you have "checked" .. what kind of checking are you doing?

Even occasional porn use is bad .. because it creates a contrast effect that you can not compete with.

Effective "checking" is a VAR in the car ... a keylogger on the PC.. a GPS in his car ... spyware that logs his phone activity.

MNG

Stargazer, he is probably in the habit of using porn on a regular basis and that will greatly hinder his sexual appetite for you. First off, it makes you less attractive via the contrast effect and secondly, he is most certainly masturbating. Thats IF he is not having an affair. What he said is classic for those in an affair.

What kind of snooping have you done?

Considering many of those are illegal and the rest have had their legality questioned, I'm not going to answer that as it could serve to incriminate me. I'm not spoofing my IP address so tracking posts back to me would be a simple matter. So I will say it is taken care of, and leave it at that. I will not get any more specific. There is no doubt in my mind that he is not having an affair.

My husband doesn't feel affectionate toward me. That proceeds sexual desire even for him. Porn would affect his sexual desire levels but considering porn is almost never affectionate, I find it hard to believe porn would make him not want to hold my hand.

Porn has the effect of making him desire others over you. So, yes it would affect your relationship in every way. For example, many men have a high need for physical attractiveness. This is important because it seques into sexual desire as people with this need are visually stimulated. Porn causes a contrast effect that makes the spouse less interesting.

Have you read these?
Addiction to Pornography #1
Addiction to Pornography #2

Yes I have. I don't identify with either of the letters. When talking to my therapist she had a concern that his behavior in this area might be keeping him from being attracted to me again. So she recommended a colleague who threats that area. My husband went and the counselor said that this was not an issue causing my husband to not be attracted to me. That it is that his emotions for me are not strong enough right now to trigger affection and desire for me based on what they talked about. I believe that is true. In some ways my husband is more like a woman than a typical man. His affection and desire are directly linked to his emotions, just like they are for me. He rated Physical Attractiveness as 9 on his list of emotional needs, as did I.

I would take that "therapists" advice with a grain of salt. Dr Harley talks about this situation quite often and when the porn is eliminated, the offending spouse suddenly develops an interest. Your husband is not a woman, though, and has a male brain. If his only interest in sex was driven by emotions then he wouldn't watch porn at all.

When you mentioned he had no sexual interest in you, I automatically suspected he was watching porn because his reaction is CLASSIC with someone who watches porn. So, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that. Porn is unhealthy for marriage anyway. I predict if he gives it up for 6 months you would see a difference.

The fact that you don't live together has alot to do with the emotional detachment too.

I should say that he doesn't watch typical porn. He only likes amateur porn between seemingly "in love" couples. I have watched some of what he likes and they certainly seem like real couples. It isn't at all like typical porn. It is like watching a couple making love and both people have every day person bodies. Nothing surgically enhanced or naturally overly large.

That being said, say he does give up all porn, what would be a realistic time frame for him to get some kind sign that feelings could come back? Even something as simple as wanting to hold my hand again would be enough to give him hope that this is working. I am also wondering if the fact that he feels a closer friendship would indicate that it's working, just needs more time. I think that the main things holding him back are several thought distortions. Polarized thinking, Shoulds and Emotional Reasoning being the ones that stand out the most to me.

I completely agree that living apart has a lot to do with the emotional detachment. That is by one means my choice and I don't see him changing his mind until he has some kind of sign.

Have you read this one where Dr. H talks about the "contrast effect"?

I'd be opposed to a particular husband viewing pornography if there was absolutely nothing wrong with it except that it made his wife feel uncomfortable. Any violation of the Policy of Joint Agreement should be avoided. But there are reasons to avoid it, even when a wife enthusiastically agrees to it. One of the most important is known as the "contrast effect."

Found here in this article What is a Sexual Addiction?

Yes I have. I understand the "contrast effect". The couples he's watching are actually having rather ordinary sex. I've seen more exciting sex scenes in R rated movies. And the female members of the couple aren't 18 year olds. Not even close. They are generally in their 50s. He's 37 and I'm almost 33. They also aren't very good looking. I'm a 6 or 7 and they are 2s maybe 3s. Really the only contrast he has made me aware of is they know what they want and aren't afraid to ask for it which is something I was always to anxious to do when we were together.

He must find something very appealing about it or he wouldn't be choosing that over you. That is why it should be eliminated. It wll also take a lot longer than 6 weeks to fall in love again. Did you tell me you are spending 20+ hours of UA time? I can't remember.

With the exception of one week which was more like 15 hours, yes. He needs something to give him hope that the feelings come back. If he had a sign that it was working, he would have no problem continuing. I don't know how to help him see a sign.

Low testosterone level perhaps?

We talked about that as a possibility but doesn't seem to be an issue.