Starfish, it does not take "baby steps" at all. That is just an excuse to avoid doing the right thing. And working on yourselves is a distraction at a time when your marriage is crumbling. You might not have a marriage anymore if you go off on some wild goose chase.

There is no problem in your marriage right now that can't be solved by his telling the truth and passing the polygraph.

He REFUSES to do those things. REFUSES. Counseling cannot compensate for lying.

If he passes the polygraph then plan B is not needed. The polygraph is needed to discern if he is telling the truth. If he is telling the truth then obviously plan B is not warranted.

Fair enough, but I see it the other way. If things are so bad that a polygraph is needed, then enact Plan B. I believe there are other means and methods by which truthfulness can be measured by. After all, are you going to hook the spouse up to wires every time there are fears or 'signs'? It isn't doable. I think it is better to rely on other methods while Plan B is in place.

You have this backwards. Of course things are bad or a polygraph wouldn't be necessary. Passing the polygraph resolves the matter of truthfulness and prevents the necessity of Plan B. Plan B is only necessary when the WS continues to lie. The polygraph resolves that issue.

**edit**

Call the Coaching Center to get a clear and true plan.

Call them and you will see what they can offer you. The main thing is they can offer you the path to recovery. They can offer you the steps to achieve the marriage you want and deserve.

Just Give them a call.

Just curious to know what other means and methods truthfulness can be monitored by..?

Star - I don't believe there are any that would work for your husband besides the poly. He's looked you straight in the eye and with all sincerity of expression lied boldly straight at you. He's claimed to be the 5% exception, when all evidence points to the contrary - evidence interpreted by experts, not us.

I'm so sorry you broke Plan B. Unless he's truly doing a TST/HerPapaBear and volunteering to take the poly again and do anything and everything to win your trust, you should not be out of Plan B for any reason. If you think now is painful or two days ago was painful, try a false recovery. He may not keep his lies. He may not withdraw financial support. He may not do those things to harm you and be perceived as anything but a selfish lying pig!

How could you possibly believe him when he's done the financial things to you he's done this past week? Has he taken ANY ACTION to set things right? Or are you settling for sweet talk alone as the marker for his truthfulness now?

You might want to read this false recovery thread that Pepperband put together.

False Recovery

Whatever it takes = tell the truth and take and pass a poly to prove you are telling the truth. That has been and will always be the answer. If he is unwilling to do this, then he is lying to you by simply making this statement, because he is NOT willing to do whatever it takes.

What he is really saying: "Starfish, I am willing to do whatever it takes, ... except practice radical honesty, do the one thing I can do to PROVE to you that I am telling the truth and ready for recovery (poly), and work on REAL recovery...but I am willing to do whatever ELSE it takes to earn back your trust and prove I am fully committed." Really, this is irrational nonsense. You know that, you just miss him.

Whether or not it is important for you to know the details, or even to know about whole affairs, is it important for your WH to be WILLING TO PROVIDE that information if you do want and need it??? If he is truly remorseful and understands that his affairs and continued lies have damaged your marriage (and brought you incredible pain may I add) and that your marriage needs to do a complete 180 to have any hope for recovery, he would be willing to be open and honest about everything that has destroyed your marriage, in order to begin true recovery. Whether the details are important or not, him being willing to provide those details IS important. His unwillingness to do that proves he is not anywhere near ready for true recovery. So is it acceptable for him to be unwilling to be open and honest with you, whether you care about the answer or not??? (PS I have a good decade of 'wondering' under my belt and I can tell you, there is no possible way to have a full love bank with that little seed in the back of your mind...I am the master of Plan C and you do not want to be in it)

As far as remorse, your WH can be remorseful. It is hard to believe a WS would NOT be somewhat remorseful in the heat of the havoc that has been caused. That does not equate to understanding the true devastation they have caused or what narrow path they need to follow to stay on course in the future. Only through MB principles, including Radical Honesty, can that be accomplished.

starfish. Your WH gave you all the details of OW#2 because she is out of the picture. It was a distraction to keep you from requiring him to be completely honest aboutOW #1. Because OW#1 is who is important to him.

Your WH is still protecting OW#1 and his relationship with her. This is more important to him than your own needs. Think about that.

The poly isn't about getting all the details...it is about showing you that he is now willing to be honest with you. Without his honesty, you will find yourself stuck in resentment and it will eat at you until you hate him and then finally decide that you are done.

This is what happened to me. I was at this point when I found MB. My FWH was doing everything right EXCEPT being honest...and I was starting to hate him.

You are lucky because you found MB before you got to this point.

Dear Starfish:

You're right; he doesn't want to drag things out. He wants to keep them exactly like they are right now - he gets to keep his secrets while you struggle to "move on" and "let the past be the "past."

You're teaching him that openness and honesty are not requirements in your marriage; you're teaching him that if he throws a tantrum, you will back down and allow him to do what he wants to do, when he wants to do it.

I'm sure is IS remorseful right now, and let's say the affairs between OW 1 and 2 are indeed over. Let's even say you can "move on" without the factual information about both these relationships (although to me, this is about as plausible an assumption as the sun will rise in the west tomorrow morning). What about the next time your H encounters a situation - a time when he feels his needs are not being met; a time when a co-worker really admires the work he is doing; a time when the hot new bartender comps him a drink? What will he do - exercise EPs and come home and talk to you about it? Not likely as you and he will have set the bar on the ground for these types of challenges in your marriage.

My H, CGIR, held on to his lies for A QUARTER OF A CENTURY. Some things he let me sweep under the carpet (he let me believe a year-long PA was a weeks-long EA); some things he never told me (a ONS with a prostitute); and other things he gaslighted me about until I thought I was crazy and spent over a year in IC to work on "my" issues with trust. He "whole-heartedly" (in fact, encouraged) me to call MB. We worked with Jennifer and he blatantly lied to her and she believed him. He went to an IC after I caught him in another lie and lied to this counselor as well. I caught him in lie after lie, which required constant surveillance on my part and took a lifelong toll on me. It's important for you to know that none of these lies involved OW, BUT THEY COULD HAVE, had the conditions been right. My H was another affair waiting to happen.

I did not require a polygraph and this was A MISTAKE. Please do not make the same mistake. I see your future because I've been down the same path you're traveling. I see the pitfalls you WILL enocunter. I know you think you'll be able to take a special shortcut no one else knows about (so did I), but believe me when I tell you it doesn't exist.

Your plan is fatally flawed, you just don't see it yet.

Please have a better outcome than me; you do not want what I have.

Good luck -

BV

You ask if there is 'another way' to get the truth besides the poly BECAUSE he would refuse a poly.

There isn't another way, but if there was another way, he would refuse that too.

He would refuse to do anything that endangered OW1.

That's why he is insisting you endure a lifetime of doubts rather than simply manning up and making you safe.

Because if you agree to a lifetime of doubt, then she is safe and he is free to choose her as a back up plan in the future.

Ok, so he is at work right now and I'd like to send him an email about being honest with me. What should I say?

Send no email.

Dear Starfish:

Be open, honest and direct. Say that you want a new relationship that both of you will honor and cherish by following the principles of MB. (You have both seen what happens when you don't).

Say that you want a new relationship based on a foundation of trust, and the only SOLID foundation you can have at this point is a passed polygraph. You are starting from below ground-zero in terms of trust; neither of you can trust the other. You cannot trust him to be honest about the past or the future; he cannot trust you to be honest about what you need and require (otherwise, you would not have broken Plan B). He also cannot trust you to not to revisit his affairs - you are about as honest as he is now when you say you will not, that the information you have now is enough. By passing the poly, he will have taken the first step toward regaining your trust, and you will have taken the first step in offering him trust he deserves IF he truly wants an open and honest relationship with you.

If he still wants to hide information from you, you will go through exactly the same cycle you just ended. But this time, it will be worse; now he will need to exceed the behavior he engaged in previously in order to get you to back down again. He's learned that a tantrum will get him what he wants; he just may need to have bigger and longer tantrums in order to achieve it.

But if he REALLY wants to start over with you, he WILL take the poly, he will take it willingly and he will PASS.

If you settle for anything other than a passed poly, you are accepting the cycle above for as long as your husband wishes to continue it.

And because it's working for him, I predict that will be a long, long time.

BV

BINGO. I see that your husband would rather go to "counseling" to work on "issues" than do what it necessary to save your marriage. If you back down, starfish, you will never save this. You will be facing a future of more affairs. There is a good reason your husband flunked the polygraph, and that is because he is lying. Lying is NOT a sign of remorse and does not reflect a person who is serious.

All that has happened here is that Plan B was starting to make your husband uncomfortable and he decided to see if he could manipulate you into doing the adjusting rather than him. He succeeded this time.

I still say no email.

It is trying to beat a dead horse in the head. He has heard it all. He has disregarded it and given excuses that he half believes himself and gives tears and sweet talk to avoid taking a poly and passing it.

Starfish.....he is showing zero initiative in any type of true recovery here. He is putting a lot of energy into doing everything BUT what he should put energy into.

You are just delaying dealing with the situation because you were feeling withdrawal from him.

Send no email right now. Let him do allllllllllllllllllll the work, or be cast away for you to heal.

Ok, yes... I broke Plan B. I do need the major details and know whatever it is that he is hiding. I would like to reiterate this to him again, so we can begin to work on our marriage.