BrainHurts - thanks for the radio clips! It's so good to hear them in the context of what I'm struggling with.

Thanks for sharing. I'm listening right now.

Zhamila,
I just wanted to encourage you as you continue with the Marriage Builders program. Sometimes, even though the program itself seems simple, it is not always easy.
I am very like your H, I think. I was always the one struggling with the program. It seemed at times as if I was the only one doing the growing and changing.... but if you keep at it -it works!

Oh, and HoldHerHand gives excellent advice-even when it is hard to hear sometimes.
Good luck!
RC

Thanks Raging Calm! You are right: simple, but NOT easy.

Since you've been there, what turned it around for you? Was it the patience & kindness of your W, separation, or something else?

Thanks for any insight.

OK, so today I made my checklist of ENs and LBs to do each day and sent it to SH. It didn't seem quite so overwhelming putting it in a checklist. Here's an example:

Sunday:

Admiration
Tell him he looks nice in the morning
Compliment something he does for the family/home
Thank him for something and tell him he's awesome

Disrespectful Judgements
Don't lecture - say my thoughts 1x only then stop
Don't act superior - ask him about his perspective and listen.
Ask: Have you noticed any LBs in the past few hours?


We'll see how it goes.

What turned it around for us was the patience of my H in the early weeks and our commitment to racking up significant UA time.
At first I was LoveBusting him all over the place and only doing a so-so job of meeting his needs.
Do not underestimate the importance of UA time, it is critical to moving forward with the program.
Our marriage was in crisis when we started Marriage Builders, and I took a leave of absence from work to get us jump-started with the program.

Great job on the check list! My H listed all kind of details on his EN form that he often added to or updated. Encourage your H to do this; the more information you have, the better you will be able to successfully meet his needs.

Also great idea to check in with your H on how he is feeling. I make a point to ask H how he feels I am doing as a wife and if I am meeting his needs to his satisfaction. Then I have to shut up and listen to what he says.

I should qualify all of the above as coming from a newbie. We started this program towards the end of December 2011, so I am by no means an MB expert.

Good Luck and keep up the good work, I know it is hard sometimes.
RC

Thanks RC for the great advice!

What a great point on UA! - things go more smoothly when we're spending time together. My H has been seeking me out a little bit more lately: indication that he might be edging toward falling in love again?

Good idea on the EN list - I will encourage him to update it as he thinks of new ways to meet those needs. I will ask him how I'm doing, even though this makes me nervous. But...knowledge is power, and I need to find out how I'm doing on a regular basis.

Thanks for the advice & insight!!

THOUGHTS ABOUT COMPLAINING

I've been noodling over something regarding complaining: Dr. H recommends that spouses never stop complaining, always express their needs, things that drain their bank, etc. So, I took his advice and kept it up - being careful to avoid SDs DJs and AOs. But no matter what I did or said, my H would get more and more frustrated and withdrawn, and our problems certainly were not getting fixed: they got worse.

I'm thinking that as unpleasant as this past 2 years have been, at least it brought the real issues to light. Instead of me trying to "feel" different, I kept it all on the table. This brought things to a head (rather than burying them) and I found out that my H is really not on board with MB principles.

So, perhaps the "ideal scenario" of a complaining spouse is the correction of what's being complained about. This did not happen for us.

But, what if the "runner up scenario" is that each spouse's marital philosophy comes to light much more quickly? If you disagree on the fundamentals of how a marriage should work, then it will not work.

I'd been puzzled over this: why isn't my complaining magically working? Why aren't we making course-corrections the way Dr. H and Joyce do every day on the radio? Because my H and I have different beliefs about how marriage should work.

At least I know now, and we're getting help with the basics.

So I believe in complaining, because SOMETHING good will come of it: either a correction, or a crisis!

Zhamila,
Only have a minute, but I wanted to reply quickly re complaints.
Your complaints were/are not working because your H is not in love with you (or you with him).
Make absolutely sure that your complaints are super respectful. If you are unsure-check with your H. Ask him "Did I phrase that complaint respectfully enough?" If not ask him how he would prefer to hear your complaints. Then abide by his preferences.
Increase your UA time consistently and it will make all the difference.
Good luck!
RC

How are you complaining - give an HONEST, word-for-word example. Don't tell us "I calmly and respectfully stated..." because everybody with a marriage in tatters "calmly and respectfully..." spoke to their spouse about this or that and are baffled as to why it doesn't work. Calmly doesn't mean you are on the razor's edge with an AO or bursting into tears. Respectful doesn't mean that you chose not to curse or call them names - it means that you aren't trying to change their beliefs (read the definitions of DJs... over and over... every day).


How OFTEN did you complain?

Dr. H might recommend that you not stop compaining, but frequency - once every few days, once a week - is the key. Give it time, and don't unleash a constant battering of complaints.



How MANY COMPLAINTS were you bringing to the table each time?


It's usually recommended that ONE ISSUE be worked on at a time, as otherwise you risk overwhelming your spouse with criticisms.



So, have you been bringing one complaint to your husband each week, and giving it to him in a pleasant and respectful manner?

HHH - your questions are giving me a lot to think about, especially about keeping it to one issue at a time, and complaining less often. This is an interesting thought, thank you.

Here's an example (he was planning to make fish for dinner):
I asked if he'd please leave the spice off the kids' and my fish - we can't eat it, it burns our mouths. He was angry, and he told me that fish is 'better' with the spice. I just asked him again to please leave the spice off our fish - he refused, told me, 'that's how I make fish' and finally, 'fine I'll never make fish again!!' I told him I was disappointed that he wouldn't honor the request. (He gets really angry when I stay calm and just repeat my request - he says it's disrespectful).

This is a verbatim example I have. Sometimes I log our interactions, because I wonder later if I'm just crazy, or imagining things. It helps me see what's really going on.


Here's an article by Dr. H on complaining. This issue has been on my mind for years:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
Complaining in Marriage

Dear Dr. Harley,

My wife says that she wishes she could talk to me about the things
she is dissatisfied with in our marriage, so they could be addressed.
But when she does talk to me about these things, I get frustrated
because it seems like she is never happy with me. The progress I
make doesn't seem to matter.

I often see her explaining what she is upset about as complaining and
only focusing on the negative. I don't often feel like she has
recognized the good things about us. I want her to be more positive.
I think she complains too much and does not see the good in some
situations. I want her perspective to change, but she doesn't think
she has to do something different to make this happen.

Thanks for your help.

R.D.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear R.D.

On average, women complain far more often than men, in both good and
bad marriages. But there is a difference in how the complaints are
received in those marriages. In good marriages, a complaint is
regarded as a problem to be solved with wisdom and compassion. In
bad marriages, a complaint is viewed as an unnecessary irritant --
something that should be either ignored or reacted to with anger and
disrespect.

Remember what a complaint is -- it's a reminder that you are losing
love units in your account in your wife's Love Bank. She is simply
giving you accurate information about the present state of your
relationship. While it may be discouraging to hear that you are
losing ground, to be kept in the dark about such losses would be
worse in the long run.

More than anything else, your wife wants to be in love with you, and
you want her to be in love with you. So to achieve that crucial objective you must know when her love for you is being threatened by behavior that makes her unhappy. If your marriage has any hope of recovery, she must tell you how she feels about your behavior, and you must make corrections to eliminate her negative reactions.

Your wife's high incidence of negative reactions simply reflects the
number of issues that have yet to be resolved in your marriage. If
you want her to be more positive, you must address those issues, and
eliminate them one at a time. You've had success in the past, and
she has been very encouraged when that happens. But when you seem
to be overwhelmed by it all, and tell her that she must learn to be
more positive, she feels hopeless because there remain many issues
that must be resolved if she is to be happy and in love with you.

The harder you try to become sensitive to your wife reactions, the
more successful you will become in doing what it takes to make her
happy. The more you try to avoid anger, replacing it with empathy
(an effort to try to understand how your wife feels without being
defensive), the more your wife will feel your care for her, and
that in itself will make massive Love Bank deposits.

Remember, all of your efforts on your wife's behalf make a
difference in the way you think and behave. You are rerouting
neural pathways in your brain that will make it easier for you to
care for her in the future. While it may seem like a lot of
effort now, in the future, it will be almost effortless to address
your wife's complaints, and solve her problems with compassion.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Thanks RC for taking time to reply.

I will be careful to keep it respectful.

I like "ask him how he'd prefer to hear my complaints." Great idea...I'll try that!

This is a better article;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8115_prob.html


Once the "do not" is covered, you get the "do:"

Now, I'm sure at this point that you are getting a rather strange mental picture of me... something similar to this;



But there is another little quote I'd like to share with you;


This is a primer article to the home study or online course;

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi9010_most.html

You can apply it to your sessions with SH as well.


You asked a page or two back; "How does one change a renter into a buyer?"

Here's your answer; you become a buyer yourself.


When we expect our spouses to make the changes to improve our marriage, we take on a renter's mentality; "The kitchen sink is leaking, and I'm going to stand here and complain until the landlord fixes it!"

Now, one thing you may have noticed in your sessions (and I only know by word-of-mouth), is that SH is good at making a strong pitch to reluctant husbands.

That is his job; to make the pitch.


Zhamila, it is your job to close the sale!

Hang in there Zhamila! I know it is a lot of work and hard, but I was thinking maybe you should mention the complaining to Steve. Since communication seems to be a major issue for you guys, I am thinking maybe you need some tips for how to make it productive.

Before I disconnected in my M, I was complaining plenty, but my H just viewed it as nagging, and tuned it all out. I wonder if maybe your H is doing the same?

Now that my H and I are learning to start to communicate a little better, I have discovered that VERY often when I feel I have been perfectly clear, my H hears something else completely, even when he is working very hard to listen. What may seem clear and simple to you, can easily be misunderstood.

If my H gets overwhelmed sometimes and he will just shut down and not even tell me he has no idea what I am talking about.

Hi Zhamila -keep up the good work, I know you are trying.
Another thing to remember, that MelodyLane often reminds posters, is that in a not so good marriage complaints are seen as an irritant.

Focus on racking up the UA time and I think you will turn the corner and your H will view the complaints differently.

I am glad you have Steve to help you through the rough patches.
Sorry you are struggling right now.


RC

Here's some good radio clips on DJ.
Radio clip on DJ segment #1
Segment #2

Thanks TisMeAgain! I'll definitely ask SH about complaining. That's a good idea because he knows the concepts & is also familiar with our unique situation.

Our next appt is wednesday - the earliest we could get. Steve is a busy guy!

Thanks for the encouragement, RC! I will keep trying.

That's a good point - that complaining is seen as nagging if the marriage is in a not-so-good place.

I have been keeping those little complaints short & sweet, then I change the subject. It helps to not dwell on them, so maybe that will help a little.

Update: We both finished our EN LB checklists!

H has been WAY nice the past few days. It's easy to be caring when he's being caring, so I am totally lucking out!

Anyway, we are starting to joke about checking things off our lists with each other, so that's very good. Also, we've been more positive and affirming with each other. We've also been connecting during the day with emails and phone calls, which is also really helping us.

He made me dinner tonight, served it on china, AND had a great conversation with me for an entire 1/2 hour!! Then we checked out our next vacation ideas together. Things are going very, very well right now.

So....I'm just enjoying it and trying not to worry that this is another of those "good weeks" that have often come and gone in the past two years. I hope we build some stamina this time, new habits and ways of being married that we live by for the rest of our lives.



Our next SH session is next Wednesday. I'm looking fowrad to 4 more day sof good marraige: then we can give Steve a great report.

Read your own words.



Now... read them again.


And again...


So... why would SH suggest to you that you avoid Love Busters, and meet your husbands needs?


Because it is easy for him to be caring, when you are being caring!


Crazy, right?