I'm new the the forum and don't know what much of the abbreviations mean, but have read His Needs, Her Needs and am currently reading Love Busters and have read pretty much all of the articles here on Marriage Builders. I have been married 16 years and we have had ups and downs the entire marriage. I have almost left twice due to how he acts. He likes to do whatever her wants, whenever he wants, and makes me feel like a clingy idiot if I resist. He isn't abusive, but recently I did suspect he was having an affair and began snooping the cell phone records and saw that he was texting a number 50-60 times month, for an hour here and an hour there for a few months. In December I began sneaking and getting a look at his cell phone while he slept. It turned out he was texting with his "mentor" at work who lives in a different city but comes in to mentor her people several times a month. My husband owns his own business and keeps all of his work to himself. Rarely discusses it with me at all. I am a stay at home mom who cares for a rambunctious 3 year old and we have a 15 yo daughter and a 13 yo son as well. Obviously my world was shattered when I saw what was going on. I am a giver by nature and to be a good wife, I always thought that giving him freedom was how I was a good wife. Obviously now that I read HNHN and LB I understand where I went wrong as a doormat wife.

The texts were very flirtatious in nature and right before I approached him about this emotional affair, there was the begining of sexual type jokes and the texts were up to 150 to 200 a month and sometimes for 2 hours straight during the day. Keep in mind that my husband never texted anyone else but me or my kids and he texted her more than me most months as he wasn't a big texter. He also never attempted to talk to me at all while he was at work. In January I finally decided enough was enough and told him what he was doing was inappropriate. He deleted all the texts that day, but I had already sent most of them to my email and had them saved and printed out. He went on denying that what he was doing was ever inappropriate and when I told him to hand me his phone so I could show him the inappropriate texts, he confessed he deleted them, but didn't know why. Finally after a month, I pulled out the two months worth of texts that I had and showed him. I then demanded he cut off all ties with her, which he didn't do. I did get him to send her an email telling her that all contact should be via work email or work phone. She left the company about 3 weeks later. He still denies he ever felt anything for her. I don't believe him. They were both in Las Vegas together for a training session, I want to add. And they did text during this time, as well.

So that's one small part of our history. We decided to do MB to repair what we "have". We both read HNHN and took the emotional needs questionaire. I am meeting all his needs and his bank is full. He doesn't meet mine. My top need is conversation and we spend maybe 5 hours together. He says that it is impossible to get more. The reason it is impossible is because of his after work activities. He is assistant scoutmaster of my son's troop and is gone once a week for 2 hours (after work) and goes away on just about every campout out, which means I don't see him Friday as he works then prepares for the camp out, all day Saturday, and then not until Sunday afternoon when they return. He barely interacts with my son during the campouts, due to the scout-led program. He also is in charge of a 5 K race for our son's school for the past 4 years, which I do not agree with since he gives so much time scouting. He was also a marathon runner for many years, and trained running up to 21 miles a week or more, so he would be gone running and leave me to take care of the kids. I finally got him to stop that, but mainly it was because he was on campouts and couldn't train for them. He makes me feel guilty for forcing him to stop pursuing his dream. The problem he has with all that he volunteers for, is that he has to be the best at it. He will give and give to these pursuits and ignore me and his kids, just for recognition. If he tried half as hard on our relationship as he did when he volunteered, we'd be in bliss. And I feel like such a jerk for complaining that he's volunteering for my kids' activities, but he isn't meeting my top two needs of conversation and openness and honesty.

I was reading Love Busters and would read one chapter, then give the book to him to read it. Well, he only got through the first section and then stopped 2 weeks ago. In the meantime, I am ahead and there are so many Love Busters he does that the more I read, the more frustrated I get with him and my life with him, but I can't say anything because he hasn't read that far and won't get it.

I get so sad and so discouraged that I just want to give up. I can't force him to read it. I am a doormat to him and to my children as they see how he treats me and they do the same. They all see me as their cook, maid, scheduler, and driver. I just don't know what I should do at this point. I am back to conflict stage and want to go back to withdrawal because it is unfair that I am following the rules, meeting his needs, and he leaves mine unmet. I am tired of this dictatorship! Withdrawal is so much less painful for me.

It is such a mess. I have no idea what to do anymore. Please give me any support you can. I'm so alone!

Thanks,
Trouble In Texas

TT, welcome to Marriage Builders. I would go read When to Call it Quits in the newsletter section. Dr Harley addresses a woman in a similar situation and ended up transforming her marriage with his tactics. Go read that and come back here.

Melody,
Thank you so much for your reply. I can definitely see how doing Plan A/Plan B would be what I need to do. Unfortunately I don't have an income, so I am pretty much trapped here. When you do Plan A and B, do you tell them this is the plan or do you do just as she did in the article and move out while they are at work? I have three kids, one which stays at home with me all day, so leaving just isn't a reasonable option if he doesn't meet my needs. As much as I am unhappy staying, my kids would be even more unhappy if we left here and moved someplace else. I wouldn't do that to them.

He schedules himself such that we spend a mere 5 hours together alone, if that, per week. Many of these hours are spent doing yardwork or other required tasks, not having fun. Or they are from 9 to 10 at night when we are both half asleep.

He won't follow the POJA. He makes decisions and asks me after he made them if I agree. So it seems like he's including me, but he isn't. He says he's locked into his current obligations and can't get out of them, so I have no right to complain about them. But I never agreed to them in the first place, so I am bitter and frustrated when he leaves to participate in them.

I guess my main question is do you tell them Plan A and give them a deadline before Plan B, or is this something you decide to do on your own without telling them?

Thanks
TinT

TinT, you don't tell him about Plan A and Plan B. In your situation, I would write him a Plan A letter telling him about your unhappiness and what it will take to make you happy.

Lay out a plan for him that is very detailed, ie: spending 20 hours per week of undivided attention time, meeting each others needs, etc. Getting your agreement before he commits to these activities. Ask him to step down as Boy Scout leader, etc. And ask him to go through the MB program with you. [you really need to do this because Dr Harley will work your husband over if he doesn't get on board] You need a hands on coach who will hold your husband accountable.

In the meantime, visit a lawyer and find out what your rights are. Tell the lawyer that you may have to separate and if so, how can you get your husband to move out and pay the bills..
See, just because you are separated does not mean your husband can stop supporting you.

Give him a few weeks to get on board and if he doesn't, then file for separation/divorce and ask him to move out.

See, your husband believes he has you trapped so you have to put up with whatever hand he deals. He might wake up if you disabuse him of that notion.

And in the meantime, I would start training for a career in case you need that in the long term.

I have been reading more about Plan A/B and affairs. Since my husband says he never had an affair, only that he texted with a woman and crossed a line, do I still do Plan A/B?

Also, I have told him that I do not want him to continue with scouts or with the race and he says he does want to do both. So because he wants to continue with them, no change will be done. He does not follow POJA and I'm not sure what to do as he has drawn the line.

Also, because I am so frustrated with his snail pace at working on the relationship and his apathy toward improving the things that I have talked to him about, I have gone to a state of conflict. I feel myself just wanting to fight about everything, stand up for myself and fight. I can't eat, I can't sleep. He slept on the couch last night. I know that fighting is wrong so I really don't want to, but I just don't know what to do.

Also, I found out yesterday as I was checking into our financials that he keeps me out of, that we are in debt to the count of over $80K. He has cards that he has used "for business" that I didn't even know about. I am in the process of getting passwords to the accounts so I can see where all this money went. He has hidden all of this from me.

I am feeling pretty hopeless right now. I just want to be an ostrich and put my head into the sand. There are so many issues, I am just not optimistic that we can make it better.

TinT

TinT, in the newsletter I referenced, the woman's husband did not have an affair either. PLan A and Plan B does not need to be for an affair. It is effective when a spouse refuses to meet your needs. Your husband leads a very independent lifestyle and is destroying the love in your marriage. If it keeps up this way, you will end up divorced for sure. Wouldn't you agree? But there might be a chance if you separate from him because it might be the wake up call he needs.

Here is the article: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2264789#Post2264789

Melody,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. His race is this weekend, so I am trying to hold out until next week to give him plan A or give him a list of sorts for what he needs to do. I will say that when I suspected the affair I did give him all of his emotional needs and his account was very full. He was the happiest with me that he had ever been in his life. Yet he continued his independent behavior and tried to meet needs of DS, which isn't in my top 5. I am a stay at home mom and don't have to work. Helping me with the chores doesn't put deposits into my account. It would for a lot of women, but I need him to share conversation and be open and honest. He continues to hide things from me, lie by omission, and not be honest. So I have a big problem with giving him all his needs again when I know what the result will be. Him taking. Him having his cake and eating it, again. I know that this is going against MB because I'm supposed to give him his needs, but when he neglects me, I don't want to.

Basically I told him that I am not going to read any more of LB until he takes the book and finishes it. That since he isn't continuing the program, I'm quitting it. It was a selfish demand, I know. Well, I didn't demand he continue to program, I just said that since he wasn't continuing it, I was quitting. It was a selfish demand by reverse psychology..... He read LB that night that he slept on the couch, for about 20 mins and then he fell asleep. He didn't read it last night. He instead tried to get me to have sex with him as I was falling asleep. Sex is actually one of my top 5 EN, so I thought about having it, but resisted. What a mess.

Thanks for listening. I know people are reading this. I know that my husband isn't as bad as some of them out there, but he certainly could be better. Emotional neglect is no fun and not how I thought I would end up. Totally alone in my marriage. I'm fit, I'm beautiful, I'm intelligent, I'm caring, I'm funny, and I'm a good wife and mother. I just wish I had a husband who saw more than just himself and his goals and dreams.

Thanks again,
TinT

Here's another good article that may help.
How to Overcome Independent Behavior

Brainhurts,

Thanks so much for your reply. I have read this article and I think we have so many issues that it is hard to break it down into steps. Here is how I see our plan coming together:

Steps to improve our marriage:
1. Both read HSHN. Completed.
2. Both read Love Busters. In progress.
3. Spend 20 hours of UA together each week. (currently 5 or so)
4. Learn to follow POJA correctly, not where one spouse sacrifices.
5. Using POJA, eliminate all volunteer and extracurricular pursuits that do not follow POJA.
6. Work on eliminating Love Busters
7. Learn to meet TOP Emotional Needs, not the ones we think our spouse has or the easiest ones for us to meet.

Please provide feedback as to the order of things. Like I said, it is hard to know where to start or how to prioritize.


Thanks,
TinT

You should be doing all of that at once! POJA will be much easier after UA, ENs, and LBs are addressed, because you will be in love and in love, we want to enjoy time with our partners...IB tends to disappear.

Put willingness at the top of the list. Without willingness, nothing will change. I understand that you don't want to meet his needs and I can see it is leading to huge resentment right now. I would do your best to not lovebust him and be as pleasant as possible. Having sex with him would be very hard and might even create an aversion since you are so emotionally detached.

I would suggest you start planning for a separation. Give him a plan A letter and tell him this will lead to divorce if he doesn't get on board. Contact an attorney and find out your rights. He would still have to support you even if you did separate.

You are right, doing chores does not deposit very many love units because it is not an intimate emotional need. I certainly don't want my husband doing housework!

Thanks CWMI,

Anything else we should do? I just want to both finish the LB book and take the LBQ! I also think we need to re-take the ENQ as we both re-read HNHN and I really don't think our first ENQ was accurate.

Starting to feel optimistic.

TinT

Melody,

Your letter is so much better than the one I just sent him explaining my emotional needs.

He just sent me an email telling me how happy he is when we have sex, how much he needs it, etc etc. I think he believes these emails replace actual face to face conversation with me. It has been close to two weeks, so just like clockwork, he is suddenly getting interested in having sex again. So he will start to talk to me, pay attention to me, and I will want to have sex with him because sex is actually one of my top 5 needs. Yet I don't want to give him sex because once he has it, his interest will go back to his personal persuits and off of me for about 2 weeks.

I'm going to work on this letter, and after the run this weekend, I'm going to figure out if I can find a position working again. Once I have a good idea that I can actually support myself, I give him the letter.

Thanks,
TinT

tintx, the emotional needs you should be focusing on are the 4 intimate emotional needs. THOSE are what restore love to your marriage. And they have to be met for 20+ hours of undivided attention. THAT is where your focus should lie. If you take the ENQ now they are not going to be very accurate because you are not in love. When you are not in love, people tend to rate things like DS and FC as their highest ENs.

If you want to turn this around, you need to take some ACTION like scheduling 20+ per week and meeting the top 4 intimate ENs. Everything else can come after.

Emails can be a GREAT way to communicate difficult problems so I would not dismiss that. However, he needs to understand that in order for women to feel sexual they need to feel an emotional attachment. Without that, they just feel used.

I would send him this article so he understands how to get the sex he wants: The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

If you can get him to commit to 20 hours per week, this won't be a problem. And I understand EXACTLY how you feel.

At what point would a normal person suspect an affair? And I need advice on how to figure this out.

The run is over. I supported him fully in the race and worked my [censored] off for him and got no thank you. Since the run we have spent one hour alone together. All I want is to spend time with him, for him to take the time to think about me and send me even one small text during the day that wasn't initiated by me. Am I really asking too much from him to want to show affection.

At this point, the only thing that makes me keep him here is the fact that he does the school prep for the kids in the morning and has been cleaning up after himself in the kitchen. I am so sad.

I just don't know what to do anymore.

Another question: Who defines whether or not a relationship with an OP is an EA? Him or me?

Also, if he won't talk to me all day (conversation is my top emotional need) and won't spend time alone with me, how can he expect me to meet his needs and why would I want to? I sit here and long for someone, anyone, to pay attention to me and want to talk to me and want to have fun with me. Am I wrong to feel this way?