New to forums, have been reading them since mid-Feb when I was told about the OW from my WH and that he's never loved me. We're both in our late 30's been married 7 years, but together over 15 (no kids). My WH met the OW on the internet and it started as a friendship but they soon were feeding off each other. I have an extra issue in that my WH is bipolar (and it seems like OW is that or worse), and they became manic together and supposedly "in love". Long story short, WH is now on quite a few drugs and not yet totally stable and there was a period of craziness much like you'd find in a soap opera. WH is getting closer to being stable though and breaks off contact with OW every week or so in order to work on his marriage with me. We do have a MC as well as individual ones (he needs one to manage the meds). The MC has been making progress with how we communicate, but has been missing the point of how to build back the love that obviously is long gone from WH's standpoint. That could be due to the lack of stabilization on his part, but I'm unsure about that.

Anyways, the real reason I posted is WH is back on the "working on the marriage" portion and told OW for the 5th time that she shouldn't contact him anymore yesterday as I've stated to him that OW cannot be around if we truly want to work on our marriage. He usually then goes directly into a depression (which he is now), and it's hard to get him to think about anything as he feels "numb" and "empty". I know this is part of the withdrawal, but am unsure if there is anything I can do in order try to engage him, or if it's just time that will help things. I want to hope that this is the last time he talks to OW, as he actually told the OW that he was going to work on his marriage and that's a first.

Obviously this is somewhat unique as I'm dealing not only with an OW but also a mental condition, and that causes his judgement to be skewed, so some of the ideas that I've been reading just won't work in my situation. I just want to make sure I'm heading down the right path and get any suggestions from people who have been there.

Hi 1913, welcome to Marriage Builders.

Actually your situation is very typical. We see it here each and every day. Especially the part about going to a "marriage counselor" to work on "communication" when the problem is an affair. Working on communication is a distraction from the real problem.

What needs to happen is that the affair needs to be killed with an agressive approach. A timid approach does not kill affairs and save marriages. This happens by removing the conditions that led to the affair. For example, if he conducted the affair on the internet, then he should stay off the computer.

Thoughtful requests to end the affair are not effective. [as you have learned] Rather, a DEMAND that he end the affair should be made along with complete exposure. You should demand he end the affair and send the OW a no contact letter.

The affair should be exposed wide and far, to your family members, close friends, and the OW's family.

Affairs thrive on secrecy, so bringing it out into the open ruins the fantasy aspect. Affairs quickly crumble once exposed. Please read the link in my signature to get ideas on exposure tactics.

Is the OW married?

Welcome to MB! Its great you got ML on your thread! Listen to her! She KNOWS her stuff ... she has helped MANY spouses save their marriages on this forum .. she speaks the truth!

MC's are a waste of money ... they do nothing to help you be in love again. In fact you can feel worse coming out after a session with a MC than before you went in (beenderdundat). NOt only that .. but they have an 84% failure rate and the highest rate of divorce of any occupation. SO whats that say about them? Stay Away! Especially if you got an affair going on .. they will not serve your marriage .. only their pockets.

MNG

OW is not married and definitely not mentally stable. I've previously exposed the affair to his family and mine (and man that caused some ugly comments from WH). I can't find any family for the OW. Not sure everyone knows they're still communicating though.

And I've made the demand about the affair. He has sent her a no contact letter through email before and told her over the phone multiple times, but due to his mental instability (and hers) it doesn't seem to last.

And when I bring up the demand with the MC she says that he's probably not stable enough to make an actual decision one way or another as his bipolar is causing him to waffle back and forth depending on his current mood as he can't see long term yet. She tried to have him agree to several weeks of no contact, which he agreed he'd do and then broke that agreement the first time she contacted him.

The funny thing is I don't think he's even interested in the affair anymore, just the happy feelings he had while with her. He doesn't think he'll ever be happy again when he breaks it off, and some (probably not all) of that is from the illness.

Not sure everyone knows they're still communicating though.

Okay, re-expose. (This will be important because of the next observation.) Everyone in your families will have to understand what you're dealing with.

And I've made the demand about the affair.

No you didn't. If you had made a "demand", and he failed to act as you specified, you'd be here telling us that you were implementing the sanctions that were included in your "demand". Demands are not isolated statements of desired action. They are concretely linked to negative outcomes to be realized if the demand is not complied with.

As an aside, when we look up "clueless, feckless MC" on Google, I think we get presented with the picture of your candidate.

We have a lot of former waywards here who are bipolar and they certainly can make a decision to end their affair if they are willing. Your H is waffling because he is wayward and he knows he can get away with it, NOT because he is bipolar. EVerything you describe in this post is CLASSIC behavior of a wayward and has NOTHING to do with mental illness NOTHING. But your counselor is so unqualified she probably does not know this.

I would separate from him unless he ends all contact for life and changes the environment that allowed him to have the affair. For example, he can stay off the computer and exchange phones with you. [I would put spyware on his phone first and install a keylogger on his computer]


You have just described EXACTLY how an adulterer feels about their affair. It has nothing to do with being bipolar. He is addicted to the OW because she makes him happy. And he doesnt think you will ever make him happy. TEXTBOOK AFFAIR!

This will continue until you put a stop to it. He is addicted to the OW. Dr Harley would suggest that you:

a) demand he quit - that has not been done - a demand with no consequences is just empty talk

b) expose the affair wide and far [to the OW's family too - find them on facebook]

c) separate from him if you find evidence of resumed contact

How is she doing that? Once she got the NC letter (always handwritten never emailed - I also bet it didn't resemble anything like the wording of an MB NC letter) she discovered all his contact details had changed surely?

If he hasn't bothered to block her effectively in the beginning then its because he does not plan to get withdrawal.

He's an addict. Why would he willingly go through withdrawal when everyone is making excuses for him?

Check these out.
Infidelity on The Internet #1
Internet #2
Internet #3
Internet #4

Where have you looked? Has your WH given you any info about her at all?
Let's define exactly what their mental illnesses are, can we? Can you tell us more about these illnesses? Because they sound like garden-variety waywards, to me. Do they act inappropriately in public with strangers? Refuse to bathe? Count steps over and over? Anything like that? Did you recognize a mental illness in your husband before you were married? I suspect the NC attempt didn't last because avenues of contact were left open. You need to change his cell phone number, his email, he needs to be off any social internet sites where he was able to contact her.

I suspect their 'mental illnesses' will clear up quickly if you cut off their avenues of access.

Hi 1913, I thought I would chime in. I know an OW / WW who has bipolar. Her BH is using this as an excuse not to act and kill the affair, and to let her continue her wayward behaviour... He is foggy and believes her bipolar contributes to her being wayward. He uses this to EXCUSE her cheating on him.

I have a friend who has bipolar. She is not a wayward. In fact, she has just discovered her boyfriend is the wayward, and she has done her own version of exposure and Plan B for personal recovery.

Bipolar is not an excuse. Wayward is wayward. Full stop.

Address the wayward behaviour by following the MB plans.

Sorry it's taken so long to respond, it's been crazy.

@indiegirl - When he completed the letter (yes it was email), it stated that he didn't want to have any contact with OW whatsoever. It was not in the MB format and he did not change his contact information. I know this is not the process you've defined here, but he doesn't really know about MB. I will need to figure out how to get him to change his contact information - so far he hasn't been willing to do that.

@maritalbliss - I've searched OW on google. I have her name, address and cell phone number. She's deleted her facebook account, and seems like most other items on the internet. I can barely find a reference of her right now, which is odd because when this started she was all over the internet. That was before I knew I needed to find our more about her family.

OW has borderline personality disorder and is probably also bipolar, and has been hospitalized at least once during this craziness for trying to commit suicide to keep WH around. WH is only bipolar, has been so for a time (saw depression, slight manic several times, but nothing as intense as this), but has been able to regulate himself until this episode. He has been on drugs for a little over a month, and still is not stabilized between the manic and depression and anything can trigger another event.

I have made some progress in that he's not personally meeting OW anywhere, and only contacts OW after she contacts him, but I know this isn't enough.

And I do believe that WH was trying to make a legitimate no contact conversation again earlier this week with OW. This caused a downward spiral and trigger into a severe depression, causing me to have to take him to his doctor for a multiple hour session yesterday in order to make sure he wasn't suicidal. This is one area where I have no idea how to handle it as his doctor says that he just doesn't have the "executive function" to make a long term decision at this point. The research I've done on bipolar backs up his point, so I'm not sure whether it makes more sense just to go into Plan B and let him deal with his bipolar on his own. But because he won't be hospitalized, that could cause a spiral out of control as I'm currently the individual his doctor uses to describe his moods and behavior in between sessions.

And I'm not ok with the cheating behavior and have said so many times. I believe that's why he's starting to come around as he knows that I will not deal with this. I'm just not sure what the right approach is given the instability and was hoping I'd see something creative from this forum as I don't think the standard approach is going to do anything but create a a suicidal WH.

If you do go to plan B, be sure to tell his psychiatrist so that they are able to be prepared to step in and do any intervention. The doctor will need to know you are not there to gauge his condition and call for assistance.

Yeah that's why I'm not doing plan B yet and would need an entire plan surrounding it. I can't even leave for a few days without chaos. And thus, why I'm trying to see if people have other ideas given this situation.

Ground rules to consider:

1. You go with WH to all of his medical/psychiatric appointments.
You need to be front & center to those conversations.

2. You insist the prescribing MD do a lab test for "therapeutic level". (Just in case WH is 'cheeking' his meds and not really taking them) Repeat as necessary.

3. You see an attorney and get your legal ducks in a row in case you need to make a quick WELL INFORMED decision.

4. You have a calm conversation with WH when he is at his most lucid, and assure him that you ARE unwilling to continue in a marriage if your husband is willing to do things that harm you/the marriage. Make certain he understands that this includes him neglecting to take care of his mental health.

5. You assure WH that you have his best interests at heart, and this includes your zero-tolerence for suicidal threats. (Always call 911, even if you think he is not serious)

I hope this helps.

If he is going to write a NChere are some examples and you would approve it and send it.
NC letter samples

Are you involved with his medical care for his bi-polar? Go with him? Do you talk with his psychiatrist?

Excellent radio clip where the Harleys talk about bi-polar.
Radio clip on bi-polar

I want you to think about the concept of "secondary gain".

Here is one definition:



As the spouse of a person with a serious mental illness, you need to make it your business to eliminate as much secondary gain/benefit from his illness as possible. Others may provide secondary gain (sympathy), but you have no power to control others. Only yourself.

There is a difference between empathy & understanding and relieving WH of responsibility just because he has an illness.

Your H should be the best man he is capable of being, without falling back on his unfortunate illness as an excuse/reason to treat you badly.

Again, I hope this helps.

I'm back bringing this thread up again to get some more advice... I've been so busy with work and trying to get things going on my marriage that I've neglected this thread.

To answer an old question:
I meet with WH's psychiatrist on a weekly basis, with WH there. We discuss medications and moods since the last time I was around as well as treatment plans. I know exactly when he's supposed to take his drugs and I'm supposed to watch the moods to see what his patterns are as the drugs take effect. I know he's taking his drugs and he does get tested every once in a while for the levels, which are where they are supposed to be.

Now an update:
No contact with OW since I last posted according to WH. Snooping suggests that is true.

Many mood swings back and forth and a pretty constant low grade depression on WH's side. Recently this week have seen a bit more stable functioning one day, down to a deeper depression, and back up to stable functioning. But now I can leave for a few days and not come back to chaos, just a husband who doesn't care that I'm back.

We are continuing to see the marital therapist and still living in the same house. But we will probably change the therapist shortly as I don't see any kind of changes occurring on his side and don't think he's trying. We do have conversations about the relationship, and he continues to say he "doesn't know" when pressed on things he's missing from the relationship. He says he'll think about it, but I never hear the answers. I tried using some of the tools from this website on love bank, busters, etc and that went no where.

Lately I believe he's headed towards breaking off the relationship, and I think that it's because he just doesn't care to work on things even though he's being told by many people that it takes time to not only stabilize his bipolar but to work on the underlying issues caused by years of him not actually telling the truth about how he felt (at least that's what he says). He had a fairly lengthy conversation with his dad (not a great role model - on his third wife and also bipolar) this week, which I believe didn't help things at all.

I'm not sure how to figure out the next steps, as I'm pretty sure I've got a husband who really doesn't want to work on anything and I have no idea what else to work on. I've made significant changes and he says he appreciates what I've done, but it doesn't seem to be turning into a loving relationship. Does that mean this doesn't stand a chance and I need to do something more drastic?