Hi Jennifer
Just wanted to jump in on this one as gaslighting was a massive problem in our recovery attempt. I found that the best, the perfect test of whether a recovery is fake or genuine is to try to POJA an issue. A gaslighter cannot go there. Well they can talk through the negotiation but they cannot then accept an outcome which is anything less than what they wanted.

I am no psychologist but I assume this is because gaslighting is all about needing to be in control. A gaslighter has no interest in having a happy partner.

So when the time comes, try a POJA :-)

Well, H has been busy on the house, and is setting it up to live in. He also articulated a plan to rent out one of the houses. I will give him credit, he has paid every bill he felt responsible for since separating his finances from ours. I'm actually really glad for him...he doesn't deserve to live like we have been living any more than the kids or I do. Maybe the resolve I've taken has given him the courage to have the same resolve.

I'll admit I've been thinking a lot about Plan B. I have a really hard time thinking about having no contact with him for life if we decide not to reconcile. Mostly because of our son. I don't want life to be awkward for him, I want him to have his whole family cheering him on in his endeavors. So, what can I do to address these fears/concerns? Or is there any reasonable path to move away from plan B in the future, once my personal recovery is on its way? I just want to be prepared to commit when the time comes, I see others struggle with separating completely from their partners and I know it will be hard for me as well.

I'm talking to my attorney today, last thing I need to do before committing to the rental. But I'm sure it's what I want/need to do, I just want to make sure its feasible. Also, I might ask him about Plan B/no contact and how that would work...in my corner is that it was part of the pleadings on my H's divorce petition that we would be ordered to have no contact. So basically, I would just be "agreeing" to one of his "demands." Sigh, this is tough. My little boy is such an angel and I just want his life to be the best it can possibly be.

Jennifer, I would look into parallel parenting if I were you. You might be able to be in contact with him in the future, but many people find it so stressful and depressing that they close that door. I know I dealt with the stress of my XH for years until I realized that - duh - shutting that door would bring peace. And it has. One does not have to be in touch with the other parent to be a good parent, and more often it makes one a worse parent because of the stress factor.

There are some good articles about parellel parenting over in the notable posts section.

I posted it to her already on 4-19.

you rock!

Thanks everyone! Your encouragement is, as ever, encouraging! Thanks ML for the suggestion about parallel parenting...it's definitely what I'd do in plan B, but I'm worried about other things, like deciding on school issues for our son, or attending events that he has. I suppose I shouldn't worry about it at this point, though.

So, I want to do things right. And one thing I haven't really done is exposure. I have exposed H's EA to our church community, to friends, to some, but not all, of OW's contacts. I have not exposed to H's father or brother. At this point, I'm not sure of any contact between them for a long time, but there most certainly has been no agreement to no contact and for all I know, he may still be having contact (it is still something that makes me nervous at times). I know that H would be very upset if I approached his dad about the EA and about what's going on, in fact, I'm not sure if he's even told his dad yet. He tends to hide things from his father. Exposing to his mom...I had a frank conversation with her in January before he went to visit with her but I wasn't aware at that time that she'd already helped H out with his attorney fees to divorce me. So it was most certainly a lost cause. Anyways...is this something I should do, if so, how should I do it at this late date? I think I have his dad's phone number some where (we don't really talk much, just when we see one another or I happen to answer but he usually calls H's cell phone) and I'm friends with his brother on facebook, but I'd want to talk to him by phone at least.

Is the OW married?
This is a must to tell her BH.

Did you tell your kids? This is a must also.

On his family, You can definitely let them know when you leave the real reason or he will just tell everyone "we fell out of love and both wanted the divorces"

Is the OW married?
This is a must to tell her BH.

Did you tell your kids? This is a must also.

On his family, You can definitely let them know when you leave the real reason or he will just tell everyone "we fell out of love and both wanted the divorces"

OW is divorced.

I told the older kids. I don't think my 4 year old would quite understand, but maybe I need to...especially with us moving out. He's brighter than I give him credit for (very bright, actually). I'm just so used to my gifted, studious girls, so this bubbly little fellow is sometimes harder to read!

Yes, I should contact his dad and brother. I don't have either cell phones, so I'll have to figure that one out, but I can do it.

But to be honest, none of it will change my plans to move at this point, because even if he did want to reconcile, I would want it to be very slow and with a lot of proof of changes in terms of his taking responsibility for his life. But moving is what is best for the kids and me.

Listen to this radio clip where Dr. Harley says to tell children even as young as four.
Radio clip on telling children as young as four

Thanks for sharing, Brainhurts, that is helpful!

You're very welcome.

Moving out is the best for you. Just make sure in your Plan B letter you put all your conditions that he must meet and by his actions you'll know if he is serious about recovery. Keep your bar set high.

On the OW she's D now, but was she married at the time of the affair? If so you should still let her BH know because he may have questions and no answers about their divorce. KWIM?

They had been in the process of a divorce for some time (based on clerk's websites and my knowledge of them) and she had a restraining order against him. I don't have any direct contact information for him. But I'll look into it I also haven't told a couple of people that were mutual friends of mine and hers and I am still friends with on facebook...but I should do that too. I think I need to gear up to do all this by a certain deadline and then give myself another deadline for plan B. I'm still trying to deal with getting an answer from my attorney about whether there is any legal problem with me moving with our son, I can't see where there would be but I guess H's attorney faxed him an objection of sorts.

Those sound like good ideas.

1. Date of when to inform all others.
2. Get info from lawyer
3 plan B launch date

You can start working on your Plan B letter and get an IM locked up.

Well, finally pow-wowed with my attorney and we saw no legal reason I couldn't move, even in the worst case scenario. So, I confirmed with my future landlord and made utility deposits! I'm thrilled! The kids have started shoving things in boxes, kid style, with free use of a sharpie

So, dates...
1. When to inform others...I think I'll have to wait until monday to get in touch with FIL since I don't have his cell phone number and asking for it would be a little obvious. I'll contact BIL and other people the same time.

3. Plan B launch date: it'll have to be when I'm fully moved out, but I'm hoping to have that complete by the end of next weekend. And then I'll have a mediation (of course, in person) on 5/17. But Maybe 5/6 would work?

So...moving forward! I'm so excited that my life has a chance to blossom again. And I so look forward to giving my kids what they need.

BTW, I ran into a neighbor today at the grocery store. I guess H had spoken to him recently and said he wouldn't be living here much longer (I think that was before I made my decision to try and move out). I told him that the D was his idea and he was really surprised. Mostly, I think, because for H to leave me means giving up a lot of stability and support, and also because he figured that if anyone was going to get fed up with the conditions we'd been living in, it would have been me. I guess maybe that's true, though, I did get fed up, ramped up my LB'ing, depleted my lovebank with H, and he then went elsewhere for his emotional needs and refused to come out of withdrawl long enough for us to fall back in love. Textbook Dr. H scenario.

I'm still plan A ing up to the end. I'm not sure if it's that I'm doing a good job, but H can't seem to get enough chances to talk to me. (meeting conversational need) I enjoy talking to him too, we used to talk for hours. Yesterday, he was talking about someone not comfortable with how they looked, and he said what a shame he thought that was. I said, politely and factually, I'm kind of surprised you say that, since you've said you were no longer physically attracted to me after I gained some weight. He said, I never said I wasn't physically attracted to you. (more fogbabble, he sure did, a couple of times). Then he clarified, and he said, I might have said I found you unattractive, but I didn't mean physically.

Ouch! So which is worse, if your H finds you unattractive because of your weight, or unattractive because of your personality? I know it's all fogbabble...he was at the time he said that, absolutely convinced that I had borderline personality disorder (See Midlife Crisis strategies on vilifying spouse). Is is less so know? I just know it doesn't matter to me anymore what he thinks. It's really his problem that he let himself (with his mother's encouragement) get whipped up into a frenzy of hatred towards me so that he didn't have to accept responsibility for his own role in what our life had become.

On a side note, I have to write him a letter before we move notifying him of the move, and outlining proposed time sharing. I want to do this so as not to diminish the plan B letter and addendum. Maybe I can include in it the routine financial matters/child matters that would have been in the addendum, and then just do my plan B letter when I'm ready to implement that? Thoughts and suggestions very much welcome!!

One last walls/doors note...I used to have a platform bed frame my mom made for me, but it broke during my marriage. H never fixed or replaced it, although he said he was going to and we drew out plans on many occasions. I finally decided enough was enough, and I've bought myself some basic tools (he taught me a lot of carpentry tricks and I love to build things, so not having access to his tools was no fun!). So I drew out rough plans and started getting ready to build my own platform bed, darnit! Just then on craigslist, I found a couple of awesome deals, and now I'll be able to make a platform bed with underbed storage drawers for less than $50! I got all the materials within the day and started cutting wood. I'm so excited! I must say, buying materials for an obvious project at Lowes on a Friday night gets you a lot of attention from single men

He was surprised because he didn't know about the affair. This is an excellent opportunity to inform him of the truth.

Your launch dates look good and I'm so glad your lawyer advised you that there wasn't any legal keeping you from moving out. I would give him PB letter when you move out.

Have you written your PB letter yet? Some people have had difficulty in doing this.

What about an IM? You're doing so well and moving forward you will definitely heal and blossom in PB. Keep it up.

Thanks, BH, and yes, I told the neighbor about the affair.

I posted a draft of my plan B letter earlier in this thread, do you have any thoughts on it?

IM...need to work on that one. I've got someone in mind but haven't talked to her about it directly yet. My health has been really poor this week and I have laryngitis, so I hope to see her in person this weekend at one of two church events. If not, I'm planning a lunch with her next week. I have some possible back ups. I talked to my attorney about no contact. He said the biggest thing the judges look for in determining custody is which parent will do a better job making sure the other parent is still involved. So he was wanting me to keep that in mind.

It's going to be painful I know. I still do love my H and want so much for us to have the family life that I think we could have (and that we've had in the past). But I'm also realistic that I have just as much control over how I provide for my kids, and whether he wants to be a part of that is up to him, and my conditions. Anyways...I imagine the withdrawal is going to be painful for me, too.

On your Plan B letter, I would use this one that Melodylane wrote for you.

Thanks BH. I'm going to add back a bit, because I really think H is not in withdrawal anymore and will treasure and reread what I write.

The IM that I was thinking of won't work, due to personal circumstances, but I've got some other ideas and need to work on that ASAP.