jry, you are very well spoken. i am sorry if my words may have offended you, but when i said that your thread has received only the "barest number of responses" i meant that given that you and your wife had chosen to have sexual relations with others while still married AND referred to yourself as a Christian then it's possible that the paucity of responses could be due to the very contradictions inherent in your sitch. here you are asking for help when you casually state that "we have been with other people sexually during our separation." and if it is no big deal that your WW slept with other man, how is it that you are taken aback by her new "friendship"? i have seen many different situations here @ MB, and if i could have had a chance at fresh start free of the encumbrances of children i would've embraced it happily.

i have no doubt that you absolutely adore and love your W as i do mine. but there does come a point where you have to acknowledge that things are somehow awry and that the best remedy is to start over. it is not normal for 2 people who are "committed" to marriage to engage in sexual relations with several others while still technically married. in essence you both committed adultery. so if your WW is interested in someone else, are you surprised? maybe no one is answering you as yet bc of that very contradiction. i cannot speak for anyone else.

you do have to acknowledge that i am here responding to you, no? i am simply a BH with the craziest of WW's with whom i had 5 children, all biologically mine or least hope so. you are a WH/possibly BH married to a WW/BW. it is neither good nor bad bc we all make mistakes in judgement. but w/ no kids you have to ask yourself if you are not better off by running now rather than sticking around to have something even worse happen later when you actually do have children.

Oh and jry to your question about you knowing everything she tells you. This is also easy, you give her a poly. You can also offer to do a poly on yourself. Polygraph Testing

Do you understand these 2 statements are mutually incompatible?

No such thing actually - I wonder what you mean by that? Are you swingers perchance?

How long have you been separated? Is it not odd to you that neither of you can exercise any control and have had 2 other relationships while still married?

Please listen to this radio clip on the Harley's talking about how it's our job to protect our Lovebanks from others filling it.

Radio Clip

jry, you should absolutely expose, and start on Plan A.

I think that you should also focus on reading everything you can about Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders. I think that those will help you out the most. It seems that what you may be describing here is a marriage that was at best Renter-Renter, and at worst Freeloader-Freeloader. I think that that is more what SMM meant when he said that you may not have been meant for each other. The two of you weren't Buyers in your marriage, and that is proven by how easily you committed adultery. Because, let's be frank here, that is what you BOTH did.

DO you have friends of the opposite sex? Are you willing to enforce any boundaries on yourself that you will be demanding of your WW?

Is your WW living at home? Are you trying to work on your marriage, together? Have you thought about calling the coaching center? Have you looked into the online course?

It is quite difficult to recover a marriage with ONE serial adulterer, in this case, you have TWO. The chances are very slim that you will be able to save this. Please take all precautions to ensure that you do not bring a child into this mess. Not for a long long time.

As I started reading this thread this morning I was going to say no opposite sex friends, WW has banged this OM, WW will be banging this OM during the two weeks in Europe, and if you want the truth as BHurt said schedule a poly then tell WW the time and date.

As the day gets near your WW as other WW's before her will tell some small part of the truth to get you to cancel the poly. This is known as Trickle Truthing.

Don't fall for her claiming she has told the whole story. Follow through with the poly.

Hi Jry and welcome to MB.

Why did you and your wife separate to begin with, was there an OM/OW involved?

I think that people on this thread are turned off by your seemingly nonchalant attitude toward sexual relationships with others during your separation. Separated does NOT equal single, separated is still married so these are all affairs. It seems like you have/had a different attitude about that. Do you see now that you have both had affairs and caused great problems to your marriage because of these affairs? You may have had some problems that led to separation, but adding affairs on top of that has been far more damaging.

Clearly, you realize you have made mistakes in your relationship and separation. Now that you have both had multiple infidelities, you will have a long road to recovery. It can be done following the MB principles however. Have you read what Dr Harley says about renters vs buyers? Maybe one of the vets can post a link here for you. Also, have you read what Dr Harley says about opposite sex friends and having strong boundaries? Neither you or your wife seem to have ANY boundaries with the opposite sex.

How does your 'vision' of what the necessary steps to reconciliation differ between you and your wife? Is she familiar with the MB principles? What is her idea of reconciliation?

The answer to your original question about the EA (possibly PA or soon to be PA) your wife is having with her 'friend' is NO, you should not tolerate another man filling her LB by meeting her EN's. She is still having an EA (PA?) with this man and for you to reconnect with her and recover your marriage that will need to end.

How does your wife feel about moving back in? It is also difficult to recover your M while you are living separately. How do you plan to recover a VERY damaged marriage if she moves to Paris for 6 months? Are you willing to move with her? Is she willing to put her educational pursuits on hold to invest in your marriage?

Yes. That is just what I meant Scotty & bigk. There is an inherent contradiction betw saying I'm a "Chistian" and what appears to be an open marriage. What you will find here at MB is that those of us who post generally subscribe to the same value set and have similar outlooks. There is a sanctity to marriage which must be adhered to. Having sexual relationships with others is in violation of that. Your wording alone appeared to be rather nonchalant. You were both wrong.

Is it that you are now aware that u were wrong jry, or do u not see that? Marriage = forsaking all others. I'm a very sexual man and find lotsa women attractive. SF is great. But I always knew I shouldn't do that so I didn't, though I may have come close twice. In hindsight I'm not perfect and thankfully I never consummated anything I would now regret. Sure I've done a whole lot of other stupid stuff in my life bc I'm imperfect, a quintessential human being with all my frailties. But you need to ask yourself "is it worth my time trying to resurrect something which now appears to be significantly flawed," especially as there are no children yet. Children need and deserve an intact home with parents committed to one another and to their children. It requires a level of selflessness that your run of the mill wayward just does not understand nor is capable of providing bc they are soooo ensconced in the credo of "what I need" and "I deserve to be happy." When you are more interested in going out to party and going on vacation, meeting new people, having new sexual encounters, etc than in caring for the miracle that is a child then I say you are not fit to be a parent. Witness Demi Moore. Leann (G)Rimes. Newt Gingrich. Again I say that the amount of work that will be required of both of you may be better served by creating a new marriage to someone else, especially if you start to "get it" and your W does not. You were both wayward at the same time, yes?

And totally about OM visiting Paris for 2 weeks btw. Missed that. I'm a man going thru a D. He is too? So I'm invited to visit a woman who will be living there for 6 months, who has her own place AND who's probably told me she is "separated" or en route to a divorce for all you know. I will be flying > 6-8 hours to get there, yes? $800-1000/ticket. Well if it was me and I was him, you can bet I will try to shag her rotten. Paris with a woman = certain romance. Every night, all night. Bet on it. I'd do it. I wouldn't be taking a trip for platonic reasons amigo to sit at cafes talking. And your wife? She is counting on that herself. "OM's flying over to see me. It's kismet. Fate. We were meant to be. It's Paris! City of Light. Love is in the air! BH would understand. He'd want me to be happy. He's done it himself so why shouldn't I?" Waywards love to throw that "fate" word around. Junk.

Please read this Buyer's Renter's and Freeloaders

What did Demi Moore do wrong ? She was cheated on by two husbands.

Rimes and Gingrich I followed. Demi?

And single does not equal "free to have sex." At least for someone who considers himself a Christian.

jry, I would like to know why you felt it was okay to have sex with someone you are not married to, if you are a Christian. Do you just dispense with this part of Christianity? Did you start out with good intentions and then weaken? Did you just not have good intentions at all in the first place? Was it a way to get revenge on your wife?

I would also love to hear the answers as well. I was somewhat taken back by the almost passive reference.

We do not have children. My parents know about my extramarital relationship and the extent of it. I did not take lengths to hide it and I�m not proud of my actions. The woman I was with was not in a relationship.

I agree, the friendship needs to end; my wife does not agree. Our marriage declined and that friendship developed. Regardless of evidence that nothing sexual happened, the emotional affair is still problematic. My wife argues we have opposite-sex friends that I am comfortable with. Each friendship is different and I would be comfortable with some because they were couple friends and we would typically visit together. I would occasionally have a coffee individually with the wife or the husband but I now recognize the slippery slope and I support establishing mutually agreeable boundaries.

My wife moved out in January 2011 but we live in the same city. I asked her to move back in on a number of occasions (recently in the last month), and though we are currently having positive interactions, she is not willing to move back. As with people who exhibit independent behaviour, much of my requests can be seen as demands. And truthfully, there are times when I put them to her as necessary, and the only way this will succeed. While I do believe that, I see a dilemma between trying to force her to take a path versus inviting her to take a path. But the invitation is not working.

I have read through Exposure 101. My wife has apologized for her sexual encounters (she draws a distinction between them and a secret affair because she had made the statement that we were �separated�), said all direct contact is over (though I have not seen any email communication) and has expressly asked me to not tell anyone. I fear that exposure will ruin our chances to reconcile. I will do it but I�m afraid. I�m also aware that she has an upcoming project in two weeks that will have a major impact on her career and I think that exposure right now will distract her from that task. So I�m wrestling with the timing of the exposure and whether to wait until after this project finishes in mid-May.

Do emotional affairs need to be exposed in the same manner as sexual affairs?

My wife is moving a significant distance for her career in a few months and will be there for 6 months. During this time, she has arranged friends and family to come and visit her. Several of these friends are male (including the aforementioned friend) and I am NOT okay with that. My objection has been met with words such as: �they�re just friends� or �if it was a female friend visiting me, you would be okay with it�. I offered to take a leave of absence from work but she still said she wants these friends to visit. It is so clear to me that her emotional needs are being met by others.

I am working my way through the online material and so I appreciate that some of these answers may become evident. However, I also appreciate the guidance from others who have gone through these unfortunate experiences.

Thank you all for your thoughts. In response to the many questions:

Regarding my Christianity, I�ve learned a lot over the past year and a half and I�m ashamed of many of my actions. As a Christian, I don�t think I am immune to human temptations. I was sexual with another woman after my wife left me because I am a weak human. However, if you think challenging my Christianity will be helpful for me in this process, I am open to the conversation.

I acknowledge that both my wife and I committed adultery. I�m ashamed of my actions and will continue to seek forgiveness and try to act in a more mature way. I don�t think our separation meant we were single.

I do have friends of the opposite sex and I�m willing to enforce the same boundaries on myself as I�m asking of my wife.

We do not have kids.

My wife and I are not currently living together.

I asked my wife to attend a Retrouvaille program and offered to pay for it. She said not to register because she�s not sure she want to go.

I am willing to move to Paris with my wife. She is not willing to put her educational pursuits on hold. She writes a major test in two weeks and I�m concerned about how she will react if I expose her affairs during this two-week period.

My wife is aware of Marriage Builders and was actually encouraging me to follow the program when I was with the other woman. I regret my affair more than I�ve regretted anything else in my life.

In response to the overwhelming perception that I am nonchalant towards the extramarital sexual encounters, I want to make it very clear that I am not okay with them. If I come across as nonchalant, it may be that my attempt to be clear about the actions and omit my emotional response is leaving a disengaged impression. I can assure you, though, I am hurting from my situation. Both my actions and those of my wife make me sick to think about.

I take offense to the suggestion by bigkahuna that my wife and I are swingers. I also take offense to TheRoad�s use of the term �banging� and savemymarr�s reference to �shag her rotten� when referring to my wife. I am guilty of making disrespectful judgements in the past, especially immediately after learning of the first man she was with. However, while I don�t agree with some of her actions, or some of mine, I would prefer to keep the reminders of the sexual offenses to a minimum and move forward with the belief that we are not defined by our actions and that we have the capacity to change under the proper circumstances. It is these circumstances that I am trying to figure out and it appears that I should be engaging the concept of exposure. What I currently want to know is, given my transgressions, do I expose both mine and my wife�s in the same exposure message?

I have to head to a meeting but will provide more information about how my marriage came to the point of separation when I return. Again, thank you for your support and challenges.

I, for one, appreciate your response and I do realize that we all are prone to mistakes. I was simply hoping that you had indeed understood YOUR mistakes, primarily after the separation, since we have little info on before.

Concercing exposure, I don't think one can be exposed without the other. Both of you have engaged in extramarital relationships. At this point, you understand them for what they were and are willing to forsake all for your marriage. She doesn't seem to be.

More info concerning what led up to the separation will be helpful once you give us that but, in the mean time, I believe your first step would be the same - exposure.

Better yet, why don't you call the coaching center or do the online program because you're giving a coach to help you through the program?

I would expose both yours and your WW's affairs. That would show you standing up for your own transgressions.
Here is an excellent radio clip of Dr. Harley saying what a WH should do for recovery. Tell everyone himself about his own affairs.

Radio Clip on a WH on what to do to get back with his wife 3:50 mark

Tell us what you think.

Of course you need to expose both your affairs, and your wife's. You need to start this step honestly, as when you expose, if you neglect to mention any of your adultery, your WW will simply say that you are out to get her. And you shouldn't wait the 2 weeks, why wait?

Have you read enough of DrH's writing to understand that he says that spouses should NOT have ANY opposite sex friendships? WOuld you be willing to give up your opposite sex friendships? I know you stated that you were willing to put the same boundaries in place that you would ask your WW to implement but I am unaware if you know what those entail.

We aren't going to let you off so easily about your past adultery. You are going to need to clean up your own side of the fence. You need to look at the things that you have done, and not done in this marriage, and see where YOU can make improvements. Have you taken those steps yet?

Do you mean that your WW suggested that you try to use MB to help your affair? SHUDDER.