Honesty is a GOOD thing, not something that should make us feel badly when we "have" to do it.

My take is one from personal experience:

My H also was very focused on pleasing himself for a long time in our marriage. (from your thread title) He confesses that freely now and is saddened by the long wasted years. He was very angry during many of those years, because he wanted the freedom to do what he pleased, without having to consider me. He was often depressed, because what he was doing was depressing for him. Dishonesty doesn't make a person feel too great about oneself.

So now? Fast forward to our 32nd year of marriage. He says he deeply regrets all those years of being what he calls a "crappy" husband. He is embarrassed by that. We finally have a great marriage. He is affectionate and caring and, in turn, I happily meet his needs for SF and RC. He often jokes that he is "addicted" to me.

There is no way we could have gotten to this place without his agreement to use POJA and Radical Honesty going forward, without his adopting of the EPs, without his commitment to building a romantic and safe marriage with me.

The tragedy is that it took a full blown adultery and betrayal and almost losing me to see the truth.

I am very concerned that your H is the one feeling "raw" by your requirements for a safe marraige and by your hurt. I listened to your conversation with the Harleys a couple of times this morning. There is nothing in your conversation with them for your H to be defensive about. The Harleys have seen it all and know that it takes a lot of little steps to get to adultery. Best to not take those little steps in the first place.

Sure, maybe it was "only" an EA, but that's exactly the kind of thing my H did quite frequently. It always hurt me deeply, but he didn't care enough about me or our marriage to stop it or protect our marriage. It was fun being admired by other women to whom he owed nothing. There are plenty of predatory women who are looking for a married man to hook up with.

Listen, if I'd had MB all those years ago, I would have required the POJA and Radical Honesty as well as EPs from the first infidelity onward. Either my H would have left me at this requirement, and I would have moved on without him, or he would have built a good marriage with me. What we did instead was to stay married but with no marital protections. I was naive and trusted him when he hadn't earned it.

Don't back down on your requirements. Be loving but adamant that you want this marriage to be safe for you. That you want a romantic and passionate marriage with him.

Wait, this is not quite right. That puts the blame on the betrayed spouse to meet the wayward's needs "or else" they will be tempted and may have an affair.

That's not how it works.

Even in a fulfilling marriage, even when all emotional needs are met, it is still normal for many people, particularly men, to feel attracted to others of the opposite sex. That's why extraordinary precautions are so important. Being open about any such situations IS one of those precautions, but when those situations exist it does NOT mean that there is something "lacking" in the needs met by the spouse.

Comments like this make me cringe. If he is so gosh darn intellegent, then why is he taking a beautiful gift like a loving devoted wife and making her feel like crapola and destroying a marriage and family because of some silly EA? (if that's all it was...) I heard things like this from my WH. For years he thought MC was embarrassingly beneath us. When I originally asked for a poly he said it made him feel like he was on the Jerry Springer show (ie it was 'beneath us' or 'low class' I guess). Um, you being wayward is beneath us, not MC or the poly.

True recovery begins when there is humility IMO. When my WH got to the point where he looked in the mirror and realized HE and his wayward behavior was the disgusting and low class thing, nothing more, that is when he truly committed to work. At that point, he was too good for nothing. He needed, welcomed the help of MC/MB and he is eagerly wanting a poly, to earn my trust back.

What do you think? Do you agree with him?

It sounds like he thinks that his thinks should carry the day and your thinks should be ignored.

I would tell him you don't agree, that you don't think your marriage can survive this without getting through this program, and that you don't think you guys can get through the program without help.

Wow! Thank you for all the responses! I want to digest them and think about them and get back when the little one is napping. You guys are the best and are helping me get the courage to stand my ground and quit feeling like I'm being demanding. Thank you thank you thank you!

When I asked him what it was that made him want to just leave, here was his response:

"Just tired I guess and want to take path of least resistance. I want to just get over this and not put in the work.

Want the 6 pack without going on a diet.

Crazy I know. "

This is so frustrating and I can't even begin to respond respectfully!

Like I said, I need to digest all of this and get little one down for a nap before I can respond, but please keep them coming. I have also emailed the show again.

Thanks again, so much!
TinT

Oy-vey

You said:


May I suggest a non-verbal response.
You have 3 kids together.
Keep handy, at all times, a photo of all 3 kids.
Print dozens out.

When he speaks like a lazy-dumb-bum .... say:

"I know. Real life demands a lot of effort. I think real life is worth the effort."

Then, hand him one copy of the photo of your kids.

THEN WALK AWAY.
Not in anger.
Not sad.
"I'm going to the market. Do you have any special requests for dinner?"
Just walk away very relaxed.

Keep plenty of photos handy.
You will need them.

Plan A is NOT the path of "least resistance", is it?

I'm just thinking out loud here, but that doesn't sound like the kind of highly motivated person who gets through the Marriage Builders program with the books alone and no professional assistance.

He doesn't yet understand that all this "work" could have terrific results. You and he could get this marriage together and have a wonderful rewarding relationship that meets both your needs and is fulfilling and passionate.

A good marriage is really not a lot of work. Dr. Harley says in his audio series that the work comes in learning new habits. After that, it's keeping up the habits until they become a way of life.

My H sometimes still says he wishes we'd had MB from the beginning. MB not only makes for a great marriage; it helps us become better people.

And good for you for keeping this up. I know it must be emotionally exhausting to deal with this and take care of your children. Your H just doesn't see the rewards yet--that it's possible to be romantically in love with your spouse and to have the needs met within a warm loving and SAFE marriage.

He is saying:

I just reread over your thread TinT and a couple things jumped out at me.

Did you ever expose to the OW's BH? I suspect, with her seemingly quick and out of the blue departure to her job/your WH, that once the email was sent she panicked by the fact that you MIGHT tell her BH and she would also feel the reprecussions of her wayward behavior. So....you should make sure to do this. OK not just to give her reprecussions for messin with your man, but also because her BH has a right to know! There are so many people out there ready to step in and ruin a marriage, or be a part of betraying a spouse. At the very least the BS's should stand united in a quest to support each other for pete's sake, and that starts by exposing what we know to each other. I know when I was the BLIND spouse I would have wanted to know what was going on. I would have wanted to know the truth about my life, and would have wanted the opportunity to make a choice about what was going to happen with it.

Did you ever ask your WH about the weekend in Las Vegas with the OW? Are you positive that there was NOT a PA going on, or is that lurking in your mind? I feel like recovery is not really underway if there are still lurking questions in your mind, whether you have all the cards on the table. If it IS still lurking and/or you have ANY reason to suspect there is more to know, make one of your requirements that your WH take a poly. If he wants to regain your trust, he will do so willingly. If he still has secrets he will not.

I have read several things in your thread that make me feel like you feel like you are being bossy, controlling, and demanding to ask these things of your WH. Things like "feel like we should limit texting to people of the opposite sex" Do you really not want to ELIMINATE texting to people of the opposite sex for him, given the fact that he was having a texting EA with a work related person? My WH, along with MANY WS's on these boards probably, is in a professional career where he works with many women, NONE of whom he is ever going to send a text to. "I used to GIVE HIM freedom..." and "I want to make sure I'm not seeming to be controlling..."

I understand your hesitation about this. For a long long time I thought I was the 'cool wife' who gave my WH LOADS of freedom, to travel for work with no wife calling him to check in, to do his hobbies whenever he wanted to, etc. How cool was I! I looked down on women who had to be involved in everything their H's did, how controlling! I look at this through completely different glasses now. Protecting your marriage and your vows, protecting your spouse from making bad choices or protecting yourself from making bad choices is not controlling, NOT doing that is not any more cool than sending your spouse to walk across a busy 10 lane highway. You have to stop thinking about EP's as you being controlling and demanding of your WH. You are requiring things for your marriage, and protecting it from harm. Would you want one of your children to require a mate that worked with her as one, treated her with respect, protected her and her marriage? Or would you tell them that is controlling, to expect their spouse to protect them and/or to protect their spouse and marriage from harm?

You are doing the right thing. You are approaching your WH with a loving resolution to the problems in your marriage by offering the MB program. You are, in the midst of feeling betrayed by his EA, willing to work diligently to create a marriage that is more amazing then ever before. You are NOT being controlling or demanding.

Also, when he argues about the EA. I have been wayward too, have never had a PA but had many male friendships and a revenge EA that was sexual in nature. I have also had to, through our recovery, really take a long hard look in the mirror about my major lack of boundaries. I thought that since I had PHYSICAL boundaries with men, and although I was flirtatious I also had boundaries when it came to any sexual talk (until the RA anyway), that I just had a lot of male 'friends' and it was all ok. One of the things that turned my thinking around on that is to always ask myself how I would feel if my H was doing the exact same thing. If YOU had a 'friend' that you had long text conversations with, which were flirtatious, and had spent a weekend out of town with even, would your WH think differently about it then? Have you ever turned it around on him? I am guessing he would NOT be OK with you having a 'friend' like that and would NOT be ok with you saying it was no big deal.

PS Sorry for the long post! Apparently, I am chatty today.

Hi TinT,
I have read your thread and listened to your segment. I thought I would share my story with you because there are some similarities.

My WH also had "just an EA" that I discovered March 5. It involved online sexual encounters with women "only" (that I knew of at the time) and my WH also had trouble with independent behavior and POJA. When I attempted to go through the MB program with WH, he agreed to most things except a polygraph, saying that it was "degrading." I considered letting go of requiring the poly (because it was "just" an online affair) but it continued to bother me. Why wouldn't he take it? Did it mean he was lying? What if I was risking my marriage over a polygraph test?

He was reluctant to agree to POJA as well but eventually did and throughout our negotiations continued to beg me to go back to him. I decided to do Plan B with my condition to work on the marriage being him passing a poly. The first day of Plan B I found out about another completely separate infidelity and realized that he continued to be dishonest and what I found out is probably just the tip of the iceberg. No wonder why he refused the polygraph and grumbled about the other conditions.

My point in telling you my story is that I STRONGLY recommend that you do some serious detective style snooping. Do it for your marriage. Get the VAR and the keylogger like another poster suggested. The fact that your WH isn't 100% on board and happy to do anything you ask to regain your trust and rebuild your marriage is a red flag and indicates that he may be hiding more. You also DEFINITELY need to bring up the polygraph to confirm his story and also just see his reaction to being confronted with a device that may show he is lying. If he doesn't agree to the Poly -- HUGE red flag. I just don't believe that nothing physical happened between he and OW when they were in Las Vegas together.

Also the polygraph is the one thing that your WH can't just agree to in order to appease you and then blow it off. He could easily agree to all of your EPs, to read LB, and to give you the moon for that matter without any intention of following through on any of it. The polygraph will be scheduled and he either does it or he doesn't do it, there's no fudging on that.

Here is your call, so others can listen.
Radio clip of TinT's call
Segment #2

wow, tnt i'm listening to your radio clip right now, and can't believe how similar your situation is to mine! have you read my thread? it may be of some help to you. it's in my sig line.

Thanks again everyone.

We had another rough, rough day yesterday. The comments I posted on here were just the beginning. I cried so much yesterday. I am hurting so badly.

I emailed Dr. H back in the morning to ask for more help and he replied within 15 minutes. I am still really shocked he was so available. He told me the fact of the matter is not as much the texts, but the fact that he doesn't follow the practice of "don't do anything that upsets your spouse" and that H doesn't follow this principle. He said, " If, however, a spouse feels that marriage should not keep one spouse from doing what they please regardless of how it affects the other person (which is a common belief these days), the marriage is doomed to failure." Well, that is really what all the trouble boils down to. He tends to do whatever he wants without regard to how his actions make me feel. This is probably the root of long term problems.

So I forwarded the email thread to the H and heard back from him right about the time I got home from picking up my older kids from school. I wish I could post it here, but it would reveal a lot of personal information. What he said cut me to the core. He said again that he wants this hurt for him to end and he even said he almost packed a bag this morning and left. He said the only thing keeping him here was the scarring memory of his Dad doing the same thing to him when he was our kids' exact age. So nice to know he is only staying for the kids.

He also used this line: "Read HNHN again�..people have affairs for one reason�someone else is fulfilling a person�s needs when their spouse is not. " Ouch. So him chosing to have the EA is my fault in his mind. Justified. I need to give a little history, just to keep you all in mind of the timeline I discovered.

8/22/11-I had an ovarian cyst rupture. Tried to get ahold of him for two hours and he didn't respond so a friend had to be called to take me to the hospital. Extremely painful and i went through that with a 3 year old in tow.
8/23/11-next day. He goes to a nearby city for a "workshop" in which other person was there and then during the session he texted with her for 2 hours straight. Then comes home and screams orders at me, is mean, and nasty. I saved an email I sent him regarding the fact that I was in extreme pain and he didn't even care for me and came home mean and nasty. , Also flirted with another woman while I was home alone and almost called 911 to go back to hospital due to extreme pain and vomitting from the pain. My doc says I need a hyst right away but H asks me to delay it to week of Thanksgiving so he won't miss any work. For next couple of months I am in pain every 2 weeks. He continues attacking me verbally and being unsympathetic. His texting ramps up. Not sexual in nature,but flirting, joking, even cussing in the "mentor" texts.
11/211 Have surgery but have a complication and had internal bleeding.
11/22 I have to go back to surgery to stop bleeding. Doc states I almost died. texts come in from OP.
11/23 Received two blood transfusions, more texts, "Oh H, are you okay?" Husband sits on couch, gives me little or no attention as the days go on. I was in hospital for an outpatient surgery for 5 days. The recovery took about 3 weeks, which completely shocked the doc. He thought it would take me 6-8 to bounce back. I was left alone in the bedroom the day after got home. He took the kids to a movie and left me there in the bedroom with no food or water for 6 hours. He needed to "reconnect with the kids".
1/1/12-12:40am, text comes into his phone from OP while he slept. He turned down my offers for SF on New Year's Eve and went to bed. When I came to bed later I saw his phone lighting up with a text from his "mentor" wishing him a happy new year. Scrolled back to November and read texts, panic ensued, I figured out a way to email them to my phone then deleted the emails and removed them from his trash so he wouldn't know. Happy New Year to me. My world as I knew it swept away. I snooped on him for 3 weeks before I couldn't stand it anymore and thought they would take it physical and approached him about it.

He got further and further away from me after this time after my surgery. The week after I got out of the hospital. Yet he blames ME for his affair because I didn't meet his needs. Tell me how I am supposed to meet his needs when I'm dying. I think this is what caused the bulk of my problem with him, was discovering this all ramped up when I was in the worst condition of my life. I am rarely sick like this. The only other times I had health issues was during the pregnancy of our DS3.

His email yesterday also stated his position on the boundaries that we had put into place and I shared on here, "My position on the boundaries��I will do whatever helps you move past this and to build your trust in me again so have no issue with the rules we set up last night. I do think though that as long as we are fulfilling each other�s needs that they don�t concern me. I will trust that as long as I make you happy and your Love Bank for me is full that you won�t have any kind of inappropriate relationship with another person and vice versa." Again, in complete fog about the risks he puts us in and doesn't give a darn if it bothers me.

So anyway, I replied as nicely as I could to his email. I talk about that in the next post.

This is not entirely true.

It was his choice.

It's about his lack of boundaries around women.

I do believe you need to clean up your side of the street. You are responsible for 50% of the demise of your M, but he is 100% responsible for his affair.

So I think you need to concentrate on what Dr. H said.

Can you feel safe in this M if he continues to do this?

I do not feel safe. I taking my 3 yo to school today then coming home and trying to think. Having 3 kids really limits how much I can really figure out what I want to do. I do agree that my side of the street needs to be cleaned and when I recognized the affair, I did just that. We are supposed to work through the LB book, but it has taken him 6 weeks to read it. He is dragging his feet.

When I am alone my plan is to get a VAR and see if there is a keylogger I can put on a work computer and not be detected. Then I am making my list of EP and sending him those. He knows they are coming. He hasn't read much of any of MB so he doesn't seem to know what they are.

Then I'm going to plan for Plan B.

And yes I have skipped exposure. The only people I have exposed to are my best friend and her husband and my two older kids. I have not told my parents because my dad has just been diagnosed with cancer and has been ill and haven't told his parents or the OP's spouse. I only have a phone number and address for him and not sure OP wouldn't intercept it.

I am a wreck and feeling awful. I too want this to end. I can't take much more of it and am failing at Plan A because I just want to withdraw. I know this is wrong.

Have you read these?
When to call it quits part 1
When to call it quits part 2
When to call it quits part 3

Ok so you need a plan and MB can give you that.

You need to do a rockstar Plan A while you expose and prepare for Plan B. Three weeks top. I think you've been in it far too long. We have another poster whom is a SAHM and pregnant and has 2 under 4 and she just went into Plan B. It can happen and we can help you.

Exposure 101
Carrot and Stick of Plan A