Um. The statement "Homosexuality is a SIN" seems a bit at odds with this approach. Presumably, on your view, we are not here to validate her personal moral beliefs, either.

I don't think she is saying that though. She is saying that the main issue is the spouse's agreement/disagreement with the decision and the reasons WHY are secondary. It doesn't matter if we APPROVE of their reasoning, the spouses feelings must be respected. Of course we have to understand WHY our spouse feels that way in order to brainstorm, but our approval of his reasoning is not warranted.

Where did you see that we can't validate her personal moral beliefs? I most certainly CAN. That, however, doesn't mean that the main focus shouldn't be on finding enthusiastic agreement regardless of the issue.

The POJA does not ask either party to adopt a level of detachment. That is clear when it is practiced consistently throughout the marriage. If Lorraine and her husband were practicing the POJA throughout their marriage, this would be one more opportunity to negotiate an issue for the betterment of the marriage. Lorraine has been dealing with this issue for quite a while, now, because she and her husband do not practice the POJA.

Dr. Harley:

Jessitaylor
"You two need to agree that even though he has chosen a relationship with your daughter that includes her partner you do not chose the same for what ever reason you have.

All you wish is not to be forced to do so if you chose not to, arrangements will have to be made separately and not in your home while you are present, all encounters will be negotiated and approved a head of time to avoide any conflict you feel, you could fill your time elsewhere or he could go to their home.
It is workable through poja, accepting each others choices and respecting each
other.
You are both entitled to the relationship you chose with your daughter and you both deserve respect from each other how that will happen .
You will have to understand it will have a different meaning and experience for each of you.
Sit down and speak to your daughter and work out the logistics and respect each other, make sure everyone knows how the other feels, make sure you all know you want the best for each other and you love each other as mother, daughter and father and as a married couple.
Love and respect each other.
Open and honesty is the key factor and actions in a very loving manner.
Good luck"


My husband has the possibility of seeing our daughter and her partner at their place and he does so freely and I do not have any objection, all I want is not to be pressurized to see them together as it hurts me. And it really hurts me! He wants me to react as if my daughter was with a husband. And I can't! The pressure and the expectation are too much.

Independent behavior, especially by a former wayward, is a lovebuster. H, in this case, is exhibiting all kinds of independent behavior - inviting people to the home and planning vacation trips without enthusiastic agreement. These are big lovebusters.

I agree with others. It is the lack of POJA and the H's independent behavior that is the problem. A post affair spouse who has not signed on to POJA is hugely negative. How can a marriage possibly recover after an affair without POJA?

AM

Lorraine, please consider signing up for the Marriage Builders program. You might not be able to resolve this specific problem immediately but you and your husband can learn the skills to resolve these problems in a way that does not hurt your marriage. This program will restore the romantic love to your marriage if you will just use it!

Ridic, is it okay if people don't believe like you on this issue? And is there a rule that people have to have everybody in their house whether they like it or not?

Yes, it's acceptable for people to not allow someone in their home, for any reason.

You can't speak up because your husband would become angry with you? Is that correct?

I need to leave for a while. I want to thank you all for your thoughts.
I do not stand up at all for myself that's why I am in this situation.

She does not have to answer to you, Ridic. You are not her judge, and I hope you will not increase her grief by continuing to post in this line.

I am notifying the moderators and hope they will be watching this closely. I don't think anyone has the right to come on here and browbeat someone for holding different personal opinions or tastes.

Lorraine, not 'standing up for yourself' is not the issue. There is a level of independent behavior and disrespect in your marriage that can be overcome. This is something you and your husband both need to work on, and it will only strengthen your marriage.

Please at least read this before you go: The Policy of Joint Agreement

It doesn't matter what "it" is that she finds very hurtful, what matters is that it does and her FWH is acting indepently regardless of the fact that he knows this hurts her. This should not be turned into a debate about homosexuality. This OP (or anybody else on this board) should not be attacked or grilled for having the belief that homosexuality is wrong. Good grief, she has enough on her plate as it is now.

Lorraine,

I agree with Mel in that you and your husband could vastly benefit from the online program. It is structured and has accountability. For me, it also took some of the heat off me. In the beginning, I didn't have to be the one who pointed out things that were making me very unhappy. The coach did that. I don't know what things she said to my H, but they made a huge difference in his behavior and outlook. My H and I have independent behavior clearly in check. We POJA everything - what to do for recreation, where to go for lunch, when and how we will do household chores. It has made us partners in everything - how a marriage is supposed to be.

Would your husband be willing to do the online course?
AM

Wow...how very intolerant of you.


Since the OP is taking a break on this thread I hope no one minds me addressing this post.

It is my understanding, having talked with Dr. Harley, that he "believes" in reparative therapy only to the extent that he's had success doing it. Now he doesn't have websites devoted to repairing homosexuals. He's not storming the country trying to "fix" homosexuals, telling parents to send me your "gay" teens and homosexuals can rest easy that he won't attempt to fix the unwilling. Quite the opposite. Persons living the homosexual lifestyle have approached him, as a family and marital counselor, seeking help in their attempt to LEAVE the lifestyle. At first....he said he'd try and he suggested and "coached" these individuals using similar behavioral therapies that he applies to marriages herein. Feeling follow actions....behave like a heterosexual and eventually your feelings will follow.

I don't know how many "successes" he's had but he's had enough that he "believes" he can coach someone how to leave the lifestyle.

Now arguments could be made about whether such "successes" stuck or whether such individuals were truly homosexuals (born that way) in the first place or just heterosexuals that got caught up in the lifestyle. All the sensitivities of political correctness remain because I've yet to see him claim universal "correctability". From what I know...Dr. Harley's only claim on the subject of reparative therapy is "he's done it".

Flipping this argument around a bit...if you were a family and marriage counselor and you were approached professionally by a homosexual that was seeking out your advice/help on how to NOT be a homosexual anymore...and they were adamant that that is what THEY wanted....what would you do? Impose your tolerant views???? I submit a compassionate counselor would try to help to the best of their ability.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I don't speak for Dr. Harley so this may not be 100% accurate regarding his opinions/views on the subject

I found this thread a pretty interesting read. Regardless of your views on homosexuality. I consider myself a pretty open minded individual and believe in everyones choices, but I can honestly say I'm not sure how I would feel about one of my sons if that were the case. But honestly thats really kind of irrelevant to her current predicament.

It sounds like the POJA would definitely be in play here. But I believe it should be very important to sit down and talk to each other about it. Maybe tell the H that he can have them over at a time when you conveniently have something else going on or somewhere to be. He should have some opportunity to see them and welcome them into the house (if you are can enthusiastically agree with that), but should agree to talk to you and see if there is a proper time that you are able to do that, and either not be there or whatever you can both agree upon. This is his daughter, the person who should be second in his life only to you. So open and honest communication about it and finding a middle ground you can both get on board with. I would say that if he had them both just pop by when you aren't ok with it, would be unacceptable.

The second issue I have noticed is that you blame the "bad times" for her lifestyle choices. This sounds like a very large resentment to carry around with you. Thats a heavy burden. I am not going to philosophize about the reasons she became homosexual. But it sounds like finding a healthy relationship with your H and learning to let go of old resentments might go far. I can't tell you to accept your daughters relationship or lifestyle but maybe it would be healthy to not blame it on everything that you guys went through.

Im fairly new to this whole program, and this forum, but thats just my two cents.
I wish you the best and pray for you.

Yes! In Marriage Builders, it doesn't matter why someone is not enthusiastic. It's bad for the marriage to do something your spouse is not enthusiastic about, whether their reason is justified or not, rational or irrational, whether you understand it or not, whether it's fair or not. Even if they don't have a reason, if they are not enthusiastic about it, you should not do it!

POJA is darn near absolute, unless someone's life or health is at stake.

Markos' post is the golden nugget of the day.

it seems to me that the DD's (daughter) partner is not the issue, but a trigger (something that sets you back emotionally because of H's [husband's] adultery). the real issue is that the OP (original poster) is not in a recovered M (marriage). what she really needs is guidance on how to recover, of which POJA (policy of joint agreement) is a part.

OP, can you give us some background on your M so we can give you guidance towards recovery? right now you are both engaging in LB (lovebusting) behaviour, which is not conducive for your M. getting started in recovery will be a big help for you all around.

terms defined for OP as i don't think she is conversant yet in MB principles.