Hello,
I find myself in a very stuck situation.
My FWH wants to invite my daughter's homosexual partner to our home. He wants me to accept her even though he knows that I find it very hurtful and I am already depressed about his past infidelity and various other problems.
An hour ago he said "I have invited them sometimes this weekend, ok". I find there is nothing I can say, saying I don't want to see this girl will lead to an argument. The only thing I can do is go somewhere else but that might lead to an argument too. And I am spent, I have no strength left in me.
To make things clear our daughter comes home to visit once a week (we also phone each other several times a week) but without her partner, that's not good enough for my husband who says it is unfair for our daughter not to be able to bring her partner.

Why didn't you POJA this?

What does it mean, please?

The policy of joint agreement. Never do anything without each others enthusiastic agreement.

Here The Policy of Joint Agreement

It also sounds like you haven't recovered from his affair, correct?

What is hurtful about your daughter's partner? Is she mean to you ? Has she hurt you in some manner?

He asked you if it's ok. It's very important for you to say "no." Did you?

I really and truly hope on this board that it isn't going to support being prejudiced about sexual orientation.

I see.
He says that not being able to receive our daughter in our home with her partner hurts him so he finally decided to do it without asking me. And I avoid meeting them together at all costs because I absolutely can't bear more grief, I find very difficult to go on as it is. I have told him.
He has also arranged a little holiday for the three of them, cycling in Finland (our son lives in Finland at the moment). He announced it to me when everything was organised and he added "Do you want to come with us?" I said no.
So POJA, I can't imagine it.

I don't believe anyone's gone in that direction except you, Ridic

The sexual orientation of this person isn't the issue here. The issue is that the poster and her husband are not using the POJA to arrive at solutions that are agreeable to both of them.

Your question to the poster is a good one: Why doesn't she want the woman in her house? Does she not trust her for some reason? Is the woman mean in some way? Her thoughts regarding this may make her husband understand her reluctance to have the woman in her home.

I hope that is the case. My life experience has taught me otherwise, so I will be thrilled and happy to be proven wrong about the OP.

I look forward to her explaining why the partner bothers her. I will be so happy to be wrong.

Lorraine555 in your original post you said you said "He wants me to accept her even though he knows I find "it" very hurtful.". Can you please clarify what is the "it" that is hurtful?

also? marital bliss? I don't enjoy the snarky smiley. my genuine concern over the situation did not warrant that.

Kerala- that is what jumped out at me, too.

Lorraine, it doesn't sound like your marriage has recovered, however, it is up to you to be honest with your husband and tell him your feelings about having this woman in your home. You have every right to have a say over who comes in your home, and need to honestly tell your husband you don't want her there. Honesty is the first step.

Afterwards, I would take the steps to really recover your marriage because it is clear your marriage has not recovered.

So your husband is making an effort to bind your family together, and include your daughter's partner- and it causes you too much grief to bear?

Can you elaborate on why? It's difficult to see where POJA factors in without knowing the motivation on both sides.

What would your husband tell us about this situation?

Lorraine, it is very thoughtless of your husband to foist a relationship on you of which you don't approve. He needs to put his marriage first. But that begins with honesty from you.

Apparently she does not approve, which is her right. He is not considering her feelings about this relationship.

I wasn't being snarky, Ridic. My snarky icon is this:

I was trying to lighten up what would come across as being chastising.

Markos: There was no question mark and I did not say no because it would have lead to an argument and I can't take any more.

RidicSit: Sexual orientation is NOT the subject here. As a parent you may well feel grief when you find this out all the same. On top of that at one point our daughter wanted help because she did not want to lead a homosexual life and I eventually found a lot of info on this, the possibility of therapy and so on.

Brainhurts: There was a 3 and a half year long affair when my husband was at times depressed and at times unpleasant. I found out when it was finished and he did his best for a while but now all that is finished.

Lorraine, the POJA was explained to you six months ago from a poster who was trying to help you with this same issue.

Have you read the articles on this site? Do you understand that they will help you, even if your H is no longer in an active affair? The articles here will help you build a great marriage, but you have to read and practice them.

But is there something about your daughter's RELATIONSHIP, and not your husband's BEHAVIOUR, that you find "hurtful"?

How does your daughter feel about this situation? Does she want to bring this woman to the house, knowing that you find it "hurtful"? How is your relationship with her?

May I ask - how long has your daughter been living as a lesbian?

Sorry - still confused by some of this.

Lorraine, it takes 2 people to argue. It just takes 1 person to be honest. I would explain to him respectfully that you do not agree to have your daughter's friend in your home and ask him to cancel those plans. Don't argue, just explain your feelings.

Then you really, really need to check into getting professional help in recovering your marriage. There is a big problem in your marriage that still exists. Problems like that usually lead to repeat affairs.

Obviously, you have a say in who comes to your house. As does your husband.

Yes, her daughter is a homosexual and is in a homosexual relationship. THAT is what is wrong. She doesn't want the homosexual partner in her home.

You believe in reparative therapy for homosexuality?

Oy.

What is the issue for you, then if it's not sexual orientation?

Also? I am a parent. If one of my children is homosexual- that would not cause me grief- because it would be part of who they are, how they were born, and life.

I look forward to understanding why yor daughter's partner is my allowed in yor home.

Here is what she said:
He is trying to force her "accept" it by inviting the partner to her home.

But this is a separate issue. The issue here is that Lorraine and her husband are not arriving at a decision that they both find agreeable. It doesn't matter what the issue is - they need to arrive at a mutually satisfactory agreement. Her husband is overriding her. This should not be happening.

Melody- what are you saying?

That it's acceptable for her to treat the partner like this ? Because of sexual orientation?

Would we say it was okay if Lorraine wanted to ban all blue eyed friends of her daughter from her house and life?

Would we be telling her to POJA it?

Hold the phone here. Many people do not approve or condone homosexuality and that is their right and their choice. Just because you do does not mean others have drunk the kool-aid. Yes, Dr Harley does believe in reparative therapy.

This woman is here to get help with this program, not to be badgered because she exercises her RIGHT to disapprove of homosexuality.

You two need to agree that even though he has chosen a relationship with your daughter that includes her partner you do not chose the same for what ever reason you have.

All you wish is not to be forced to do so if you chose not to, arrangements will have to be made separately and not in your home while you are present, all encounters will be negotiated and approved a head of time to avoide any conflict you feel, you could fill your time elsewhere or he could go to their home.
It is workable through poja, accepting each others choices and respecting each
other.
You are both entitled to the relationship you chose with your daughter and you both deserve respect from each other how that will happen .
You will have to understand it will have a different meaning and experience for each of you.
Sit down and speak to your daughter and work out the logistics and respect each other, make sure everyone knows how the other feels, make sure you all know you want the best for each other and you love each other as mother, daughter and father and as a married couple.
Love and respect each other.
Open and honesty is the key factor and actions in a very loving manner.
Good luck

Having blue eyes is not a sin. Homosexuality IS. And she can ban anyone or everyone she chooses from her home.

Thank God we live in a free country, huh? We don't live in a facist dictatorship that is ruled by political correctness.

But it isn't up to this board to sort out who is right and who is being unreasonable. It isn't for us to adjudicate between the spouses. The reasons for this poster not wanting the partner in her home are not relevant to our advice. We are not here to tell her to accept someone into her home and family if WE feel that that the person should be accepted; it is her marriage and her feelings that count.

Our job is to teach her how to use POJA so that this and every other decision affecting the couple can be negotiated and solved BY THEM, without their coming to this board (or going anywhere else) each time they disagree about something.

POJA says that NO decision should be taken that hurts one of the spouse's feelings or interests. Other's people's feelings (the daughter and her partner) are not a priority here; this wife's feelings should be the priority to her husband.

If they cannot agree to allow the partner into the home, and cannot find another solution to meeting or acknowledging her, they should do nothing. This wife should NEVER concede to an action that she does not agree with.

Yes. The point here is NOT whether Lorraine wants to banish blue-eyed blondes from her home, or lesbians, or whatever. The point is that she and her husband need to jointly agree. One should not be overriding the wishes of the other. This disregard is damaging to the marriage. As we're seeing.

Bingo!

RidicSit - yes. One is not to challenge the reasons that someone is unenthusiastic, just try and brainstorm other options. I wonder, though, where respectful persuasion would come in.

MaritalBliss - that is an exceptionally narrow way to look at it. It is asking the other person (the one who must deal with the lack of enthusiasm) to adopt a level of detachment (this is not about sexual orientation, it is about my spouse's happiness) that seems very difficult to achieve. But, I understand that is what MB would prescribe.

Yup let's help her to learn POJA.

It is true, I mentioned this 6 months ago because the subject comes up every now an then.
Kerala: There is nothing about this woman which I dislike. I have nothing against her as a person at all. But seeing her with my daughter is a trigger and depresses me. I just start crying writing about it because it makes me feel soooo sad. My daughter's homosexuality is a result of that nasty period. She also never asked me if she could bring her partner.
MelodyLane
I have already told my husband that I find it upsetting. My situation now is that I do my best to avoid conflict.

Dr. Harley believes in reparative therapy?

I did not know that.

Thank you for telling me. This will be my last post here.

I am so disappointed I might cry. Wow.

Please help this poster apply Dr Harley's advice. This is not the place for an argument over sexuality. Any more arguments and this thread will be locked.

Um. The statement "Homosexuality is a SIN" seems a bit at odds with this approach. Presumably, on your view, we are not here to validate her personal moral beliefs, either.

I don't think she is saying that though. She is saying that the main issue is the spouse's agreement/disagreement with the decision and the reasons WHY are secondary. It doesn't matter if we APPROVE of their reasoning, the spouses feelings must be respected. Of course we have to understand WHY our spouse feels that way in order to brainstorm, but our approval of his reasoning is not warranted.

Where did you see that we can't validate her personal moral beliefs? I most certainly CAN. That, however, doesn't mean that the main focus shouldn't be on finding enthusiastic agreement regardless of the issue.

The POJA does not ask either party to adopt a level of detachment. That is clear when it is practiced consistently throughout the marriage. If Lorraine and her husband were practicing the POJA throughout their marriage, this would be one more opportunity to negotiate an issue for the betterment of the marriage. Lorraine has been dealing with this issue for quite a while, now, because she and her husband do not practice the POJA.

Dr. Harley:

Jessitaylor
"You two need to agree that even though he has chosen a relationship with your daughter that includes her partner you do not chose the same for what ever reason you have.

All you wish is not to be forced to do so if you chose not to, arrangements will have to be made separately and not in your home while you are present, all encounters will be negotiated and approved a head of time to avoide any conflict you feel, you could fill your time elsewhere or he could go to their home.
It is workable through poja, accepting each others choices and respecting each
other.
You are both entitled to the relationship you chose with your daughter and you both deserve respect from each other how that will happen .
You will have to understand it will have a different meaning and experience for each of you.
Sit down and speak to your daughter and work out the logistics and respect each other, make sure everyone knows how the other feels, make sure you all know you want the best for each other and you love each other as mother, daughter and father and as a married couple.
Love and respect each other.
Open and honesty is the key factor and actions in a very loving manner.
Good luck"


My husband has the possibility of seeing our daughter and her partner at their place and he does so freely and I do not have any objection, all I want is not to be pressurized to see them together as it hurts me. And it really hurts me! He wants me to react as if my daughter was with a husband. And I can't! The pressure and the expectation are too much.

Independent behavior, especially by a former wayward, is a lovebuster. H, in this case, is exhibiting all kinds of independent behavior - inviting people to the home and planning vacation trips without enthusiastic agreement. These are big lovebusters.

I agree with others. It is the lack of POJA and the H's independent behavior that is the problem. A post affair spouse who has not signed on to POJA is hugely negative. How can a marriage possibly recover after an affair without POJA?

AM

Lorraine, please consider signing up for the Marriage Builders program. You might not be able to resolve this specific problem immediately but you and your husband can learn the skills to resolve these problems in a way that does not hurt your marriage. This program will restore the romantic love to your marriage if you will just use it!

Ridic, is it okay if people don't believe like you on this issue? And is there a rule that people have to have everybody in their house whether they like it or not?

Yes, it's acceptable for people to not allow someone in their home, for any reason.

You can't speak up because your husband would become angry with you? Is that correct?

I need to leave for a while. I want to thank you all for your thoughts.
I do not stand up at all for myself that's why I am in this situation.

She does not have to answer to you, Ridic. You are not her judge, and I hope you will not increase her grief by continuing to post in this line.

I am notifying the moderators and hope they will be watching this closely. I don't think anyone has the right to come on here and browbeat someone for holding different personal opinions or tastes.

Lorraine, not 'standing up for yourself' is not the issue. There is a level of independent behavior and disrespect in your marriage that can be overcome. This is something you and your husband both need to work on, and it will only strengthen your marriage.

Please at least read this before you go: The Policy of Joint Agreement

I admire & respect Lorraine for starting her thread.
I am very encouraged that she came back to seek expert advice from you MB vets! (You know who you are!!!)
The adversarial posts by "some" can be used for good, in that Lorraine will be able to see the difference between those with hidden agendas and those of you (MB Veterans) who sincerely want to help her by imparting Dr. H's "tools"!
I believe Lorraine will find the courage and strength to stand up for herself, that she will learn to be more assertive in expressing her thoughts & feelings to her H & DD.
Thank you, Vets, for your faithfulness!!!
And, Lorraine, believe me when I say that you are NOT alone!

Blessings ~

It doesn't matter what "it" is that she finds very hurtful, what matters is that it does and her FWH is acting indepently regardless of the fact that he knows this hurts her. This should not be turned into a debate about homosexuality. This OP (or anybody else on this board) should not be attacked or grilled for having the belief that homosexuality is wrong. Good grief, she has enough on her plate as it is now.

Lorraine,

I agree with Mel in that you and your husband could vastly benefit from the online program. It is structured and has accountability. For me, it also took some of the heat off me. In the beginning, I didn't have to be the one who pointed out things that were making me very unhappy. The coach did that. I don't know what things she said to my H, but they made a huge difference in his behavior and outlook. My H and I have independent behavior clearly in check. We POJA everything - what to do for recreation, where to go for lunch, when and how we will do household chores. It has made us partners in everything - how a marriage is supposed to be.

Would your husband be willing to do the online course?
AM

Wow...how very intolerant of you.


Since the OP is taking a break on this thread I hope no one minds me addressing this post.

It is my understanding, having talked with Dr. Harley, that he "believes" in reparative therapy only to the extent that he's had success doing it. Now he doesn't have websites devoted to repairing homosexuals. He's not storming the country trying to "fix" homosexuals, telling parents to send me your "gay" teens and homosexuals can rest easy that he won't attempt to fix the unwilling. Quite the opposite. Persons living the homosexual lifestyle have approached him, as a family and marital counselor, seeking help in their attempt to LEAVE the lifestyle. At first....he said he'd try and he suggested and "coached" these individuals using similar behavioral therapies that he applies to marriages herein. Feeling follow actions....behave like a heterosexual and eventually your feelings will follow.

I don't know how many "successes" he's had but he's had enough that he "believes" he can coach someone how to leave the lifestyle.

Now arguments could be made about whether such "successes" stuck or whether such individuals were truly homosexuals (born that way) in the first place or just heterosexuals that got caught up in the lifestyle. All the sensitivities of political correctness remain because I've yet to see him claim universal "correctability". From what I know...Dr. Harley's only claim on the subject of reparative therapy is "he's done it".

Flipping this argument around a bit...if you were a family and marriage counselor and you were approached professionally by a homosexual that was seeking out your advice/help on how to NOT be a homosexual anymore...and they were adamant that that is what THEY wanted....what would you do? Impose your tolerant views???? I submit a compassionate counselor would try to help to the best of their ability.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I don't speak for Dr. Harley so this may not be 100% accurate regarding his opinions/views on the subject

I found this thread a pretty interesting read. Regardless of your views on homosexuality. I consider myself a pretty open minded individual and believe in everyones choices, but I can honestly say I'm not sure how I would feel about one of my sons if that were the case. But honestly thats really kind of irrelevant to her current predicament.

It sounds like the POJA would definitely be in play here. But I believe it should be very important to sit down and talk to each other about it. Maybe tell the H that he can have them over at a time when you conveniently have something else going on or somewhere to be. He should have some opportunity to see them and welcome them into the house (if you are can enthusiastically agree with that), but should agree to talk to you and see if there is a proper time that you are able to do that, and either not be there or whatever you can both agree upon. This is his daughter, the person who should be second in his life only to you. So open and honest communication about it and finding a middle ground you can both get on board with. I would say that if he had them both just pop by when you aren't ok with it, would be unacceptable.

The second issue I have noticed is that you blame the "bad times" for her lifestyle choices. This sounds like a very large resentment to carry around with you. Thats a heavy burden. I am not going to philosophize about the reasons she became homosexual. But it sounds like finding a healthy relationship with your H and learning to let go of old resentments might go far. I can't tell you to accept your daughters relationship or lifestyle but maybe it would be healthy to not blame it on everything that you guys went through.

Im fairly new to this whole program, and this forum, but thats just my two cents.
I wish you the best and pray for you.

Yes! In Marriage Builders, it doesn't matter why someone is not enthusiastic. It's bad for the marriage to do something your spouse is not enthusiastic about, whether their reason is justified or not, rational or irrational, whether you understand it or not, whether it's fair or not. Even if they don't have a reason, if they are not enthusiastic about it, you should not do it!

POJA is darn near absolute, unless someone's life or health is at stake.

Markos' post is the golden nugget of the day.

it seems to me that the DD's (daughter) partner is not the issue, but a trigger (something that sets you back emotionally because of H's [husband's] adultery). the real issue is that the OP (original poster) is not in a recovered M (marriage). what she really needs is guidance on how to recover, of which POJA (policy of joint agreement) is a part.

OP, can you give us some background on your M so we can give you guidance towards recovery? right now you are both engaging in LB (lovebusting) behaviour, which is not conducive for your M. getting started in recovery will be a big help for you all around.

terms defined for OP as i don't think she is conversant yet in MB principles.

If that's true, it's a bit shocking given that she has been here since 2006.

People have tried to help her with POJA before over the years.

Darn tootin' ... because when reading about Lovebusters and fully understanding what it is about ... there is really only one absolute: it isn't our job to force someone to conform to our beliefs...

My husband said: tough, it's like that. So i packed the work i need to do today and i am going to a friend's house. He promises more of the same, doesn't matter if i'm not happy about it. I can't any hope. Do you know how it work woth Dr Harley, can u consult on skype? I am French, in France

lorraine, have you fully thought through the practicalities and goal of leaving your H? It is a mistake to leave in a fury, only to regret it and to have to go back later. You are harming the marriage by having an angry outburst (on steroids) and harming your credibility if you have to go back. Have you got somewhere to live long-term? What will you do when when your friend gets fed-up of having you in her house - which she will? Aren't you still liable for your share of the bills at your house? Do you have enough money to live on if he stops supporting you?

If you are going to end up going back, then do so now, apologise for your outburst and try to talk about POJA (even if you don't call it that) and how you are going to resolve differences in your marriage from now on. You could ask him whether he'd agree to jointly consulting with the Harleys.

About your question on consultation: the Harley coaching centre offers telephone consultations. These are done by Dr Harley's children, Steve Harley and Dr Jennifer Harley Chalmers. They are not done by Dr Harley himself. My understanding is that they do not use Skype. I asked about this for the online course, because I need the occasional phone call with my coach, and they do not use Skype. So, in addition to the cost of the phone call, you will have to pay $200 for the hour's consultation with Steve or Jennifer.

The alternative to this is the online course (I am doing this), in which you are set weekly lessons to take you through the MB course on meetings emotional needs, POJA, avoiding love busters etc. The couple does the written work at home (and practices the behaviour in the marriage) and reports back to the coach (Kim or Sandy; trained by Dr Harley) each week. A new lesson plan is devised for the following week. Dr Harley supervises Kim and Sandy, and you can post to him on the private forum here at MB if you need his targeted help at a specific problem.

So you can do either form of "coaching" from anywhere in the world. I am in the UK and doing the online course. The cost of that is about $1000, including Dr HArley's published books, workbooks for the weekly exercises, DVDs and the coaching.

I think that your marriage desperately needs the year-long course because it clearly has ingrained bad habits that you and your H need to unlearn, and you need a coach to push you to do the work and keep you accountable. However, I think you urgently need a phone consultation also, to help with this crisis. You could try paying for one hour, then using the first 30 minutes yourself to talk to Steve or Jennifer in private, then try and get your H to take the remaining 30 minutes. He needs to be sold on the benefits of POJA and they are the people to sell it to him.

Do you really think that your H has chosen to have your daughter's partner visit the home even if that means you leave him for good?

I'm wondering whether this crisis is really about your daughter's partner, or whether it is about much deeper unhappiness with the marriage as a whole. I suspect the latter.

Lorraine,

I am sorry your husband is being so insensitive to your needs and emotional wellness.
I also agree if you can get some help from the harley's it could help you and your family.
This is a difficult relationship for all of the family to navigate, how is your relationship with your daughter? Do you have other children? If you do what is their view on this?
It is very hard to stand up for your own value system in a family sometimes I'm going to guess you are bruised already with your husband's lack of consideration and the feeling of being disrespected.
You don't want to lose your family so you have to start to brainstorm how you can have everyone respected.
Can you sit down with your daughter and come to some agreement and then ask your husband to respect the choices you two come to.
You can explain he can have the relationship he wants with your daughter and her partner. Tell him you will gladly make time away so he can spend the time he wishes with them when he needs.
Is this new in the family? How long have you had to digest this situation.
Love your daughter and as adults you should work out respecting each others choices. Even if they are different at the core working out something acceptable for all of you
As far as your husband he is being unfair and quite mean he needs to be more sensitive to you as his wife, he is trying to force that's not right.
This is no different then any other problem when you work them out in a marriage, your daughter is an adult and should also be able to sit down inside the family unit and listen and compromise
Stick around and become stronger it's a difficult situation with a few issues going on at the same time
Nothing is impossible

jessi, I hate to contradict but this is entirely against POJA. The agreement needs to be made FIRST between lorraine's H and her, and THEN they need to ask their daughter to respect the choices THEY have come to.

Making an agreement with her daughter and then asking her H to respect it is as as bad as his making an agreement with their daughter and presenting to her as a fait accompli - the source of this rupture in their marriage. IB is the problem that they are trying to overcome, and her coming to a decision with their daughter about their marriage is IB!

PoJA, whole PoJA, and nothing but POJA.

The orientation of an adult child is the problem of that child.

What happens within the marital home is the subject of PoJA.

Nothing more, nothing less.

L,

You stated your major issue; you don't stand up for yourself. This means that you allow your FWH to Love Bust without notification. It likely also means you do not make your needs known to him. Which suggests that you are probably in a state of withdrawal... Which means that you aren't going to make your needs known or tell your husband about his Love Busters - and if you do either, it would likely be through Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands, and Disrespectful Judgements.


The best thing for you to do would be to tell your daughter to back off for a while so you and your H can concentrate on restoring romantic love in your marriage.

PoJA is much easier with two spouses who are in love, rather than in withdrawal/conflict.

Sugarcane,
You are right her husband does not seem to be to interested in her interests here.
My guess is she has already tried many times to have a conversation with her husband and he has refused to respect her feelings and needs.
I guess I was thinking Lorraine and her husband could just agree to have their own relationships with their daughter.
Lorraine separately and her husband with the daughters partner included.
And then they could work out the respectful logistics of that.
I guess I was wrong in my thinking about poja, I guess I should have said maybe she could get to an agreement with her husband first and then also have a loving conversation with her daughter making sure they could come to some respectful place about each others feelings and values.
Of course her relationship with her husband has to come first and then as adults they all should be able to work out the details.
I'm sorry I misspoke and I apologize to Lorraine.
I know how difficult this situation can be it has happened as well in my family with different feelings and values.
One family has worked out a compromise one family has exploded
I will pray her husband finds his way back to respecting his wife, I hope they can counsel with the Harley's
I guess I am still in the learning process myself

It was not an angry outburst on my part, i left so that he can receive my daughter and her partner without me, i didnt shout or anything of the kind, i just said i am going while there are there and i'll come back later. I certainly dont intend to impose my presence on my friend. Also i have to do my work for tomorrow. I dont feel any anger, i feel depressed.

Sorry lorraine, I misread "I packed the work I need to to day" as somehow meaning you packed your bags and moved out. Big mistake on my part!

Well, you've updated us today and corrected my error, but you haven't really responded to any of the advice you have been given about POJA and getting Harley help. Do you think any of our advice is useful? Do you intend to act on any of it?

Is your solution in the future going to be to leave the house when your H allows your daughter's partner to visit?

If that's the solution that you are happy with, then problem solved. In my opinion it would be good if you learned to use POJA so that IB is eliminated and other conflicts resolved, but if you are happy with things as they now stand, then that's fine.

Sorry i am using a cellphone, not practical and it is night time here now, so thank u i'll read all u have written tomorrow night. As somebody said it is a state of withdrawal i am in.

whoops, i must have been thinking of someone else! sorry OP!