Hello, I am in a 2-year dating relationship that's been going well and has progressed to the point where we talk about marriage. I have looked on the internet for marriage advice, and I really like Dr. Harley's. I don't have much dating experience, and I have a couple questions about some of his advice to singles.

In the Preparing for Marriage Q&A section, there's a letter posted titled Choosing the Right One to Marry #1. In that letter, Dr. Harley advises singles to

I understand his reasoning, that it helps people understand their own emotional needs and helps them know what emotional needs they're good at meeting in another person. What if you're in an exclusive dating relationship with someone you like, and things are going well, but you don't have much dating experience? Should you stop dating that person so you can get more dating experience? Or should you keep dating them as long as things continue to go well and the emotional needs of both partners are being met.

In Dr. Harley's introduction to the same letter, he says

and

I'm wondering about two bolded terms "basic concepts for marriage" and "rules of marriage." Because he says the basic concepts apply to dating couples, but the rules of marriage do not, I assume these terms refer to different things. I know what his basic concepts for marriage are, but I'm unclear what he's referring to by "rules of marriage." Does he describe these somewhere else on the website?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Welcome and I commend you for learning MB before marriage.

Dr. H says the best way to know, if the person you're with is the one, is how well you follow POJA. Do you and your BF follow this?

Do you have the book by Dr. Harley "I Promise You"?

The basic concepts are applicable to dating couples especially POJA and PORH. The rules of Marriage means the vows you take. When you're dating it's an interview for M. The more you interview the more you know you're hiring the right life partner.

Listen to this radio clip. Radio clip on engagement

Hi BrainHurts, thanks for your post. I'm really interested in learning Dr. Harley's principles, and the more I read, the more I'm impressed with his wisdom. Since you mentioned POJA, I read some of Dr. Harley's posts on that.

First though, to clarify my situation, although my GF and I have talked about marriage, we are not engaged.

In Trouble with the POJA #1 in which Dr. Harley addresses a dating-but-not-yet-engaged couple's disagreement over the application of POJA, he says three things about POJA:

It appears that he recommends giving POJA a try during engagement, but not before. That brings up another question I have regarding his principles prior to marriage. For instance the radical honesty principle is something I don't think you'd follow on the first date, but surely by the time you're married you should be following it. My question is "at what point do you begin trying to follow his basic principles of marriage?" I would think some earlier than others. Maybe radical honestly, like POJA, during engagement? Others such as meeting emotional needs earlier in the relationship? I don't really know and I would like to hear what others think.

I have not heard of the book "I Promise You." I'll look into getting it, thanks!

While reading the above letter posted by Dr. Harley, I came across the following quote that makes me wonder about your statement that the rules of marriage means the vows you take.

I might be missing the point, but it seems to me that Dr. Harley is implying that the rules of marriage kick in once you take your vows, not that the rules of marriage are your vows. Sorry if that's being too picky. I just want to make sure I'm not missing something important.

Finally, I'm still wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the "dating 30 people" advice and whether it's a good idea to date other people for the sole purpose of acquiring more dating experience, even if you're happy with your current relationship. If that is what's recommended, it would be difficult to tell my GF that I want to date others to make sure she's the one. That doesn't sound like it would go over very well.

KL, I don't ever hear Dr. Harley telling people in committed relationships where both are happy to go date 30 people. I usually hear him say that when someone is not sure.

I would look into the book "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders" its great for couples that are not yet married and gives great insight into marriage and how to become a "buyer" when it comes to marriage.

As for the dating 30 people .. I have only dated 2 women in my life and married the 2nd one. Still with her today. If you read the book i suggested it should help you paint a better picture on the mindset you need to have in order to be married.

In my marriage I was a buyer right away (probably drifted into renter and freeloader many times though) .. for some reason i KNEW she was the one for me. We got together at 15 and 16 and now are 33 and 34 with two AMAZING kids.

Dont know if that helps or contributes to the info your looking for.

*shrugs*

MNG

Edit to say HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS and LOVEBUSTERS are also EXCELLENT books. Even if your not married. ALso the questionairs on this site in the navigation are very useful too.

If you are dating, and your girlfriend gets a job offer in Paris, then she isn't bound by the rules of marriage and can just decide to take it. Oh she would be sad or maybe you would try to do a long distance relationship, but what is good for her is paramount. You could try to come to a compromise, but if you couldnt then it would be okay for her to just take the job if you couldn't figure anything out.

If you are married, and your wife gets a job offer in Paris, then you have a different set of rules. The POJA needs to apply.
The marriage comes first...so if you can't move to Paris too, then you are not going to have a long distance relationship because that is bad for marriage, so she won't take the job. The default will be that she wouldn't take the job because you both cannot enthusiastically agree.

In choosing a marriage partner, picking someone who is willing to become a buyer is crucial. Like MNG said, many of have brain farts during marriage where we become thoughtless, and that's where it really becomes trying...if both are buyers in general, the not-thoughtless (at the time) spouse will stand for the marriage while the other flails about. Being married isn't easy.

I think the advice about dating 30 people is more about finding annoyances you didn't know you had until you found it in a person you dated. For instance, I dated a guy who went hunting. I ended up not liking the amount of time spent on that hobby, and by going with him, I also discovered that I didn't want to take up hunting, either. So future potential partners needed to be non-hunters. Any scent of camo or gun racks or carcasses, and I moved on. Not that there was anything particularly wrong with the guy, but I knew I would end up resenting it, so no need to carry on. But it's still not foolproof. I dated my husband for over a year before we got married, and five years and three kids later, he decided that he was 'going to take up hunting again.' He went once, against my wishes, and never again. That's where POJA comes in...when you're married, you don't take up time consuming hobbies against your spouse's wishes. And dating is for finding these things out about a person, so yes on RH of history, current thoughts and activities, and future plans while dating. It helps ensure that nobody is wasting time being in the wrong relationship. I would never have dated a hunter and asked him to stop. My H had no hunting equipment and never once mentioned it in over six years of being together. I know all his friends from his youth, too, and nobody ever talked about hunting. Huh.

I totally thought you were female by your original post. Your GF is a lucky gal to have such a pro-active guy. It is outside the norm of my experience.

Keeplearning,

First off my bad, I thought you were female. I commend you for getting the tools to have a successful relationship/marriage.

Did you listen to the clips I posted? What did you think?

Have you thought about emailing Dr. Harley? He loves people to question him on something you may not agree with or have questions. Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Another good read. Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

In addition to all the other poster's wonderful advice you've seen this,correct?
Preparing For Marriage

KL,
just wanted to welcome you. I have been using MB principles with my GF for over a year and feel very lucky to have found someone who is interested in learning and applying the philosophy.
It's nice to see someone else dating here and trying to use what you've learned here. I hope you'll visit regular with updates and to say how it's going. I should do the same, but I don't have much time. We adhere to the 15-20hours of UA as we feel it's one of the most important things, even though we're not married yet. I have kids 50% of the time and we both work a lot, so I pop in on a thread once in a while but don't update my own very often.

I just wanted to say the the 30 people thing is very interpretable. I agree with the others. Know that Dr. Harley and Joyce met in their teens, dated. Broke up to date others and then were married in their early 20's I believe. I doubt if either of them dated 29 people in a couple of years max. But it is a good guideline: I would expect you would gather the info you needed in 30 but that's a lot of soup and sandwiches.

I had no intention of getting "serious" after my divorce was final but missed company of a female. After a few dates I danced with my now GF at a Christmas party and we've been practically inseperable ever since.

We use POJA a lot. We say "I'd like to do that, but I won't unless I know you're enthusiastic about it." We check in with each other a lot on activities.

You are on the right track I'd say. Definitely do the reading suggested. I'm trying to read "I promise you" WITH NG, but reading time is limited. We went through a spell where we were both listening to the radio show a lot and talking about it afterwords. That was good to get us on the same page.

Good Luck!!!

optimism

Thanks wannabophim, that's a good example of POJA. It brings up a question I've wondered about that involves the idea of "enthusiasm that changes over time." Borrowing from your example of the wife who gets a job offer in Paris, suppose the husband IS able to find a job there and they enthusiastically agree to move. A year later however, suppose the husband finds he hates living in Paris and wants to move back. He's no longer enthusiastic about their decision to move to Paris. Is he bound by that decision nonetheless? Or does his loss of enthusiasm nullify the original agreement. Or same thing with the wife: suppose after a year she hates her job and wants to move back, but her husband now loves Paris. What do they do?

Hi CWMI, thanks for your thoughts. Your advice on RH while dating prompted a troubling thought. When I originally posted the question about Dr. Harley's advice to date 30 people, I did so without even realizing I was not telling my GF. When I first read Dr. Harley's statement, it made me wonder about my limited dating experience, but I didn't feel like broaching the subject with her because I thought she might get upset if she felt I was thinking about dating others. Now, however, I realize that I'm not being radically honest with her. At this point in our relationship, I wonder if I should be? I agree with the principle of RH in a marriage setting, but I'm a little uncomfortable with applying it right now, in this situation. It seems that most of the posters on this thread agree that 30 is not necessarily the goal. I'm ok with that, and I could just end the discussion in my mind, continue to work on our relationship, and forget I ever read the dating 30 people thing. Thoughts?

Hi BrainHurts, I wasn't able to get the radio link to work. Clicking on it brought up a new webpage, but when I clicked on the play button, nothing happened. I'll see if I can try it on a different computer, but in the meantime, do you know if there are transcripts of the radio clips available?

Thanks for the link to Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders (and thank you MrNiceGuy for also pointing the book out). That subject caused me to examine myself and see where I fit in those categories. I'm definitely not a freeloaded, and probably somewhere in between a buyer and renter. Lot's of good points to ruminate over. Thanks!

If you two are talking about marriage, then you should certainly share MB with her, and the 30-people advice is part of that. You wouldn't want to hurt her, of course, but could you honestly say something like, "That kind of bothered me when I read that. I haven't dated that many people. Do you think that could make me a poor husband? What are your thoughts on it?"

Whatever you do, don't get married and then start dating those 30 people!

I don't know why some people are having trouble listening to the clips but no there are no transcripts.

Have you tried going to the archives and pulling them up?

I agree with CWMI if you are talking M with this girl I would definitely introduce her to Marriage Builders.

Have you practiced POJA with her?

Hi,

The marriage success is to understand each other.

**edit**

In general, if husband or wife realizes they are no longer enthusiastic about a decision, he or she should inform the other, and they should negotiate a new agreement together. Dr. Harley told me on his radio show that if my wife agrees to do something, she may very well discover when we get there to do it that she simply doesn't want to, after all. An idea or activity may appear attractive from a distance and then not so attractive when it is up close. (The technical psychological term Dr. Harley uses for this is "approach-avoidance conflict.")

I've seen people here help their own marriages go down in flames by basically shouting "We had a POJA on this!" meaning, "My wife/husband agreed to this, and now I insist that they had better do it, come hell or high water." That's a Selfish Demand, and it's a Love Buster according to Dr. Harley.

In the case of moving, Dr. Harley suggests that a couple move only if enthusiastic, and then only with the agreement that they are "trying it" and that if they don't like it they can move back. In fact, this is how he and Mrs. Harley moved to Minnesota many years ago. Joyce (his wife) wasn't sure whether she would like Minnesota or not, so he told her she had the option to pull the plug at any time and say "I don't want to live here any more." Turns out she liked it.

Were you ever able to get any of the radio shows to play on another computer?

One thing that has really helped our marriage is to become frequent listeners to the radio shows. It took Dr. Harley hundreds of hours to get some things across to me that he could get across to other people in a one hour counseling session.

CMWI, I read a few parts of your thread Duped (only a few, 83 pages was too much!), and a recent post of yours had this:

My GF and I are similar - she's a fireball, and I admire her assertiveness; I'm a peacekeeper, and she likes the stability. When you say "Most of the time, it works for us," what happens the times it doesn't work for you?

With my GF and I, I sometimes wonder if the differences that attract us to each other now, will turn into annoyances if we got married. I've heard that can happen.

The incident with the pit bull owners was a case of it not working. He felt that he had already handled it (although there was still a loose pit bull nearby) and said it was rude of me to tell them to leash it. He never told them to put it up, just asked if the dog was okay for us to pass. So, it didn't work because he took the "nice" approach and I would like for him to either take a harder stance (by law, the dog needs to be leashed when off your property, sir. We'll just wait here until you do that, or we can go get security, sir) OR, since I know that makes him uncomfortable, let me do it. I honestly don't mind!

Acnowledging differences isn't that difficult if you can continue to respect them. We should have POJA'd how to deal with this, but sometimes situations come on you too quickly to engage in a rational discussion before actions are taken. For me, with the dog, I had no problem with my H personally for the way he approached it. It was softer than I would have, but I know this about him and expect it as part of who he is. I do not expect him to get in people's faces like I would. The problem was when he called me rude for demanding that they follow the law in regard to their dog in public. I see that as NOT respecting a difference in how to handle situations on the fly. I didn't raise my voice or swear, I just said that they needed to leash it or put it in their car because that's the law. I can see how H would think it rude to tell strangers what the law is. All I was seeing was the potential for one of my children to be killed by a pit bull. I used to have one, and I felt he was fine, too, but I still didn't allow him to be loose around other people's children or pets. To me, that is rude!

I don't know if I fully answered your question, so I'll add: when it doesn't work, we cool off and then discuss it and see if we can smooth over hurt feelings and make a plan for if it happens again.

It's when everyone just stews and stays upset that you've got a problem.