i was really struck by this. there's a reason little kids are put to bed early: so the parents can have alone adult time! plus, littlies need about 12 hours a night. i would question why your DD is put to bed so very late. is it to keep you from having time together? you will have to put her to bed earlier by about 1/2 hour each night until she adjusts to a schedule that allows you and your W to have more time together in the evenings.

I agree with NG. If you can't present your EP's to her and demand for her to write that NC letter I would prepare for Plan B as you prepare for Plan D.

See she's prepared for Plan Doormat because that's what you've been doing. She has an affair and doesn't have to feel any of the consequences. She doesn't have to own up to her adultery and commit to recovery because she has no fear of losing you and her marriage or her family.

I would demand that NC letter and her committment to EP's and you and your marriage. Just because you file for D doesn't mean you have to sign them. I'm not talking manipulation but talking you standing up tor yourself and not taking it from her anymore.

This is what you need to tell her if she wants to commit to recovery.

In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep you interested:

1. end all contact with the OM for life and write the NC letter to prove it

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honestyabout her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

NG,

The opportunity for me to handle this ideally has long passed. I'll tell you the story of my DDay #1.

I found out through looking through her phone. I read exchanges between my WW and OM about how she was going to be stolen away, explicit chats between them that made me feel like I had been stabbed in the back.

She figured out that something was up the very next day. I left earlier than normal to pull 2/3 of our cash into my own new bank account. My parents were on their way to come pick up a copy of the evidence I had collected. Right then would have been the best time to tell the world about her affair.

She had been text messaging me that day. The bank had sent her a notification of the withdrawal, and she was convinced I was ready to make her leave that day (she was right). When I came home, she actually accused me of having an affair initially. She denied doing anything with the proof in her face.

That day, or before, would have been the best time to expose and give her my EPs. Ideally, I would have found MB then and continued snooping and found then what I found later (the true length of the affair, how many OMs there were, etc.). I would have exposed far and wide to anyone who could care. I would have already been meeting her needs the very best I could with starting Plan A.

Instead, I decided to "not act out of anger". This is obviously a euphemism for become a doormat. I backed off kicking her out. She made an anemic promise to work on it, but I had no idea what that needed to be. The trickle truth and DDay#2 you already know about from my OP.

Is my question so absurd when now it's been almost a year since I first discovered this? I know that whenever I finally tell her about my EPs, she'll have to understand that it means Plan B and Plan D if she doesn't agree. Is it wrong to try to put myself in the best light before I do that?

Isn't this an SD? I speed-read through SAA. Obviously I need to take another read (or three) at it.

So also tell me why your DD has such a late bed time? How old is she? My DD15 has to be in bed by 9:30.

I used to start my shift at work at 11 am and worked until 8 pm. This was like this until recently (a couple of months ago). My family just lined up their sleeping schedules to mine. I woke up for work around 10pm and went to bed around 2am. My family's sleeping schedule just conformed to mine.

My shift recently changed at work 2 hours to the earlier, and I'm wanting them to do the same.

How does your DD preform in school?

I agree with your WW adjusting with you, but your kids don't need to hinder mommy and daddy time.

DD will be home schooled (at least, that was the plan...). She is only 3, so I'm not sure how to answer your question about school performance except to give an overview of her current skills.

She is able to form complete sentences and thoughts in spoken language and has little difficulty learning new words. She is able to distinguish between different types of objects (juice versus milk, car versus truck, etc.) She is able to complete simple written exercises ("Write your name" or "Write an A"), and is beginning to learn words beyond her name.

She is able to ride a bike, handle tools, and complete other motor tasks with ease.

The extent of her mathematical skills are counting, sorting objects by color or type, etc.

She has recently started to express emotion in a more complex manner than fit throwing. Example: A consistent bed-time routine with brushing teeth, a book with both her parents and hugs and kisses good night all make her happy. She also expresses negative emotions in a more complex manner than screaming.

She's also taken a liking to my piano, sometimes even playing along with what I happen to be playing then.

She sounds like a very beautiful intelligent girl.

Ok so I would definitely put her to bed earlier and get some UA time. Did you read what Dr. H says on selfish demands?

So what I'm so concerned about is why she doesn't want to write the NC letter? What is her reasons for not committing to your M and having EP's in place?

She still acts so foggy. And your 100% sure there hasn't been any contact for a year?

What does she say when you ask her "don't you want to have a loving, romantic marriage between us"?

I read the excerpt from Dr. H. My question originates from it being related to demanding stopping an active affair versus demanding steps to marital recovery.

She has not had good boundaries with men hostorically. It was unwise for me to accept this before the A. When I asked her about friendships with men, she gets incredulous about not being able to express emotions to her friends, and that she's also always gotten along with men better than women. But then she turns around and agrees that this is how A #1 got started in the first place!

If there is contact or another A going on, it's deep, deep underground. Keylogger, I know... I need the free 10 minutes to get it installed.

If there is any contact with an OM... I'm still working on getting contact information for OMW #1. The couple of phpne numbers I found for her were duds. When we initially discussed an NC letter, WW expressed concern about the safety of sending OM a strong message to (censored) off. If his stories are true about his life, there may be merit to that concern.

Actually, as I type this out, OM is 2k miles away. Why the hell would she have a safety concern about, of all things, an NC letter. I know that OMW knew about this as early as 2010, but I don't know if she knows how long it truly went on.

i thought your dd's bedtime might have something to do with work. my own dd had a bedtime of 8 pm, up at 9am when she was small due to my night work (and consequent late mornings). an idea for this may be direct to dinner when you come home, you can do bath & both you and W can read night story together w/her, then down to sleep so you and W can be together alone. covers all the bases. she does sound like a sweet and clever little girl!

get that spyware on. it's what you'll need for peace of mind.

Ok JD so let's get your plan together.

Continue to Plan A and work on that UA time. Did you POJA your DD3's bed time?

Get that keylogger installed pronto. Continue to watch for signs of contact.

Work on those AH.

Alrighty, will do for sure. I'm going to talk to her today about DD3's bedtime.

AH is kind of a funny one... A few of them are obvious to me because she gladly vocalizes her concerns to me, but I can't get her to write down a list of annoying things I do. She was enthusiastic about the idea when I told her about it but... Well the end reeult is still the same - not really acting 100% on board with it.

The more I think about her reluctance with writing the NC letters the worse I feel about the possibilities. I'm tired of spy mode.

It doesn't really matter how badly you have handled your situation in the past, except as examples of what (or what not) to do in the future.

Here's the key point, JD.

When push comes to shove, with a resistant, defiant, recalcitrant WW, the presentation of the EPs will, in its essence be:

You must do this to help restore the legitimacy of our marriage, or........

What "or else" will you be committed to applying, my friend? A weak bluff called is worse than no action at all, so whatever item with which you fill in that blank, you had BETTER be prepared to implement it totally, instantly, and without regret.

You are faced with the dichotomy that foils most BHs - being the loving supportive hubby as the plan is followed, while being the stern SOB as required when the plan is violated. (BWs have one "playing card" in their hand to sway a reluctant WS, if necessary, that BHs don't.)

Ok on the AH have you written down the ones you remember her telling you and stopped them? Then ask her how you're doing on them. Then ask her what else annoys her and write them down showing her you care.

I know you're tired of spy mode but do you want to save your M? If you do then you have to follow the plan and work it. This didn't break over night and so it's Not going to be fixed over night. You're at war my friend against the affair and OM. You're at war to save your M. Have you read this? The Art of War by Sun Tzu

Or else... Nothing. You wield your 2x4 well.

There were two that I told her about, had her remember, and she says I'm doing a lot better at them in only a few days. Thanks for the good idea to get her engaged on the AH list - I'll do it.

Honestly I find myself doubting this more and more as time goes on. I'm tired of it because she's not on board with it at all.

I need to must stop doubting myself about these things. Within the past three months alone I've found:

• The unexplained set of pictures on her phone that mysteriously disappeared,
• the two online file sharing accounts she used to share videos with OM #1 still open,
• proposed a period of celibacy between us,
• her increasing agitation about the NCL and EP's we have discussed.

Anybody know any good man's right's lawyers in Oklahoma?

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean here.

You're right. I've doubted myself far too long on this.

So did you call a lawyer to discuss this?

You're documenting, correct?

Sounds like you're getting it. Actions speak volumes to her empty words.