I can't find my original thread in this forum. I just updated my thread in AD board in case their is interest. Hopefully it won't matter, I just have a basic question.

My GF and I are trying to implement as much MB as we can in anticipation of marrying. We have scheduled UA time because we both have kids and are busy with work, so we were finding that it could become easy to let the amount of UA time drop, without really knowing it. We don't live together, so the opportunities are subject to our schedules and my custody (50%) arrangements.

We have a littel disagreement about what constitutes true UA. She feels that by strict definition, it's only if it's JUST us, focussing 100% on each other, meeting the 4 Intimate ENs (IC, RC, SF, Affection). And I agree. That's my understanding. I think where we differ is in the RC. I believe that if we are doing something we both enjoy, it's UA, even if others are around and we might not be focussed 100% on each other. Maybe we're splitting hairs, but I feel that if let's say we're both enjoying watching my son's baseball game (which she likes to do), it counts. Riding in a car can count if we are having a IC, but she says not so much because I'm focusing on driving, too. I think riding bikes (which we both like) is UA; she's not sure, because it's kindof a paralelle activity. Perhaps I take more of a liberal view because I just love when she's around, so no matter what we are doing feels like it's increasing my $LB.

The thing is, we sometimes have to eak out 15-20 hours of real UA. So we want both want to make sure it's TRUE UA. We are very into each other's love banks and want to stay in love. We are also very aware of the statistics with 2nd marriages and blended families. We know what we're up against, and neither of us want to go through what we did with falling out of love with our spouses. We want to do things right now, and continue to do so with marriage.

Any thoughts?

optimism

Ive heard the Harleys talk on the show many times that most of their IC happens while they are driving.

Also here from Dr. Harley on UA about sporting events.

Watching your son's baseball game is exactly like watching a film together; it is not UA time because you are focusing on the game, not on each other.

Dr Harley says somewhere that "I suppose" that a car journey can fulfil UA time, although one person is focusing on the driving....

I can't think where I read that, but it was only recently. I don't have Brainy's dedication to making a note of where I saw or heard every point Dr H makes! But my point here is that a car journey can only count as UA time if it actually involves UA - if it involves focused talking to each other. Struggling through traffic jams with the radio on or driving long distance with the passenger half asleep can't be called UA time.

As for the riding bikes:

I am doing the online course where we have to track our UA time each week. We have to plan the time together and write the total hours for that plan, then at the end of the week we have to write down how much of that plan we fulfilled. Each of us writes our own view of how much time we actually gave each other. It might be the case that one of us feels that the time was fulfilling while the other feels that it wasn't, or that not all of it was. We have to write our totals separately, and then use the lower figure to send back to our coach.

The point is that UA time only becomes UA time when both spouses feel it to be such. If one spouse feels that they were not truly engaged with each other, then that time does not count. So, if you go out for a meal alone together but one spouse spends a lot of time checking the mobile phone, the other spouse might feel that UA time was never achieved, and thus that evening cannot count.

If your girlfriend feels that bike rides do not give her the UA time that she seeks, then they do not. If you are meeting the 15 hours a week without including the bike rides then all well and good, but if taking them out of the total brings you below that figure, you need to find an additional, or replacement, UA activity.

Oh that's a challenge my British friend that I will have to complete. I've been trying to locate that show. Now I have to find it.

The darn radio archives have been down all day for me. Maybe I've been using them too much that I broke them?

That was late last year, I think. I found it interesting because driving is one of our favorite UA activities. Joyce said they liked to go places to eat that are 2 hours away because they so enjoy the UA time while driving. Driving time is some of our very BEST UA time. We meet the top 4 intimate emotional needs. The only thing that can ruin our UA time is traffic so we try to avoid it.

lots of good posts here already.

My take on it is, make those times more enjoyable for her, probably by making sure the conversation is better. Focus on Dr. H's friends and enemies of good conversation, and see if she suddenly likes driving, etc. now. Ask her to give it a shot, and if she doesn't like it, don't do it any more.

In His Needs, Her Needs, Dr. Harley makes the statement that a date consists of a recreational activity which is, in a way, a pretext for intimate conversation. You've got to combine both.

Found some good radio clips on intimate conversation, but I'm sstill looking for the driving one that Mel and I suggested. Until then here are some good ones....

Like markos explained Dr. Harlley talks about the enemies and friends of conversation.
Radio clips on Intimate Conversation
Segment #2
Segment #3

Also do you want to introduce your GF to come here?

Sorry - I misled you, Brainy. This is something I've seen in print. It might be in my course materials. I'll have a look for it today.

Love this, ML! Do you seriously meet ALL FOUR intimate emotional needs WHILE DRIVING?

I'm impressed, to say the least. And that explains why traffic would interfere....

My lips are SEALED!!

See that's why I ask because we actually focus a lot of time on each other. We sit real close, hold hands, arm-in-arm. We don't sit with the other parents (I usually say "hi" but I don't have much in common with most of them anyway). And there's a lot of down-time in baseball where we wind up talking about non-baseball things. I'm just so happy she's there with me and enjoying herself, it's major $LB deposits.

However, I can see the point that everyone seems to be making (and is illustrated in your classwork example SC [thanks for that]): it is only UA if it's UA for both of us. And it sounds like there can be a scale of it -- am I right? IOW is it possible to have 6/10 UA and 10/10 UA? If so, how does that play into the situation or am I thinking this to death?

Thanks for all your input.

Opt

@Brainy: I did listen to one clip so far -- thank you!! Also, I have interested her to some extent in the boards and we've talked about getting a thread for both of us but she's on the computer even more than me for work and finds it detestable to do one more thing on-screen. I'll read through some of this and that will probably be the best I can do. Mostly she does the reading and listens to the show from time to time (unfortunately it's a lot of infidelity stuff, as you know, so it gets a little tedious for her)
@Melody: Your dedication to MB principles and procedures is definitely inspiring.

You are thinking along the correct lines, but you need to quantify it in hours.

For our coursework, at the start of the week we put down how long we plan for each session: e.g. Tuesday - 3-hour lunch (including 15 minutes' drive each way).

Then at the end of the week we look at how much we actually achieved:

In his column: how much of that time was really UA time? (not the actual words; something like that!)

In her column: same question.

Take the lower figure and THAT is the actual UA time. The UA time for the week is the total of those lower figures.

So if the passenger (for example) felt that the driver was preoccupied with the traffic at times and was singing along intensely to the radio at other times, she might choose to reduce the 3 hours to 2.5, because she deducts the time spent in the car. The total entered is then the 2.5 hours.

The UA form is probably available free on the website somewhere. I haven't looked for it, but I'm sure I've heard others refer to it.

That makes a lot of sense, Cane. Thanks for the clarification. I will go over this with NG so we both have a better understanding of UA.

I would be inclined to print out the worksheet (or make one up) and take part in this. This will definitely give us something to go on.

I keep wondering if UA will be easier to achieve once we're married and we living together. We lament that we can't get at least one hour together every day. I picture being able to go for a walk after dinner, even the nights when my kids are with us.

It doesn't seem like UA should be a struggle for a dating couple, but let's face it: the theory was born out of the traditional dating relationship -- no kids, no house, just work/school responsibilities. Am I right or off-base on that?

thanks again.

opt

Hi optimism, I met you on a thread I started as a new member last week. Sounds like you're working on similar issues I am: 2nd marriages, blended families, currently not living together, don't want to make a mistake again. I too, wonder if UA would be easier if married. My two kids are in college and don't require much attention. Hers are in high school, and as a single working mother, feels conflict between wanting to care for her kids vs. wanting UA with me. If we marry, I'd be able to help her out with household chores, thus freeing up her time, and she'd have more time for UA. As it is now, we struggle to find alone time together, and a significant amount of our time together is on the phone. Not optimal, but it's better than nothing.

In answer to your original post on this thread, I think there are gray areas to what constitutes UA, and your suggestion of degree (e.g. 6/10 or 10/10) is accurate. When you're at your son's baseball game, there are probably times when your son is at bat and you're focused on him, and there are other times when you tune out the game and converse with your GF. So you get SOME UA at the game, but not 100%. I also agree that it shouldn't be considered UA unless you both agree that it is.

My GF and I are having this very same conversation right now, trying to nail down exactly what we mean by UA. Last weekend we were at the beach with her kids and we had bits of time we spent reading and discussing MB material while at the same time being interrupted every now and then by her kids. She asked me if I considered that to be UA. Technically, it was not Undivided, since her attention was divided between me and her kids. But I felt we had enough chunks of time to ourselves that I would count it as UA to some degree; not 10/10 as if we had the weekend to ourselves, but more than 0/10. On the hand, she wanted to know if time spent together where she pays some bills, works on email, stuff like that, and invites me over to bring my laptop and work on email too, or read a book, just so we can be in the presence of each other - does THAT count as UA? I said no, but I still like doing that because I'd rather do that kind of thing with her around than on my own.

KL, you are correct that this time is not UA time, because you are interrupted by children. In order for UA time to be effective, it needs to be in 2 to 4 hour blocks. If the kids are running in and out, it is not UA time. People would never fall in love if they were constantly interrupted by children. One can't be intimate when children are around.

While I agree that time at the beach reading MB material is time well spent, it won't have the same effect as UA time.

here

The biggest issue with UA time is that most people flat REFUSE to do it. Absolutely refuse. Many don't want to admit their refusal and instead strive to count any time regardless of its effectiveness. [hey, we passed in the hallway so there is 10 minutes!!] The only ones they cheat is themselves.

Thanks for your thoughts ML. This prompts me to believe "undivided" can be a relative term in some situations. Take for instance driving. Driving requires some amount of attention, and you can't give 100% of your attention to your spouse while driving. Yet you and apparently the Harley's view driving as a time for UA. Someone else, however, may find that the attention they need to devote to driving is too much to qualify the activity of driving as UA. The question as to whether or not driving qualifies as UA does not have an absolute answer; it can be different for different people.

Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned that an activity qualifies as UA only if both partners agree that it does. I agree with that, and I also agree with your sentiment that people may be cheating themselves by counting as UA time that really doesn't qualify, even if they both think it does.

It seems there are some activities for which there are absolute answers about UA (eg, watching a captivating movie where there's no conversation between partners), and other activities where the answer is subjective (eg, driving).

Having children around, though, is NOT subjective, even if they do run off and play for a while. Try not to outsmart people here by faulting their logic when the goal really is to have a romantic marriage, okay?

UA time needs to be "alone together" time. It needs to be organised like a date and it needs to feel like a date. Taking children to the beach or watching them (on and off) at a rowdy sports game is not a date.

Children do not go on dates with their parents. If your children are around it is not a date!

You can actually run your marriage or pre-marriage any way you wish. If you both feel romantic and bonded going to see children at games or taking them to the beach (or watching a DVD at home or anything else), nobody will come chasing after you and tell you that you are running your life the wrong way. But if a poster comes here to ask about how to use the MB programme because they have concerns about their marriage at the moment, or about how their future marriage will be, then it does not help them to learn to cut corners - especially not so that you can prove that you are clever at arguing.

I've heard Dr Harley say that the reason he insists on dates out of the house, without children, is that he typically sees couples where one or both are saying "I just don't know what happened. We used to be so much in love and now there is no romance any more. We've got kids, and all we ever seem to do is run around after them, go to work, fix meals and do the laundry and cleaning, and there is no sparkle any more. Where did it all go?"

And he reminds them that when they were dating they didn't look after kids or do housework together - at least not more than the time they spent doing private, intimate conversation, affection and recreational activities. They got dressed up and met up for a date, and that is what must be created and maintained in marriage.

You do readers a disservice if your goal is to argue. Think about whether either you or your fiancee's last marriages lacked sparkle like those of the couples that counsel with Dr H, and then see the benefit of what he says.

If two divorced people with kids wanted to date each other, I wonder whether the romantic threshold woud ever be reached enough for them to fall in love and want to marry, if they brought their kids along on all their dates?