I've been away for a while so I'm just checking in on you. How are you? How are you and the wife? How is your daughter? As time permits, send an update, okay? Have a nice day.<BR>FC

FC - Welcome back from Hawaii!<P>Thank you for asking about my family and me.<P>First, my daughter is doing fine. She went into surgery last Wednesday (general anesthetic) and had a pin placed in her hand. The surgery took longer than we were told so we were a little anxious for a while. She is fine and has a nice cast covering her hand. School started so she's trying to make do being a lefty for now.<P>We decided to go to San Diego for a couple days anyway and left the morning after her surgery. We camped at a state beach for a couple of nights and visited the Zoo on one of the days. Camping was very tense. We were 30 feet from a busy train track and right next to 8 college kids who couldn't communicate with one another unless the word f**k was placed at every other word in their sentence. <P>As far as our marriage goes, she seems content; I, of course, want more. I give her space and I make sure our time together is special. While we were both sitting on the beach watching the kids frolic in the surf, she surprised me with a compliment. She said, "So, how much weight have you lost?" I said, about 30 lbs. She said, "You look very nice." Well, that made my day, week, and month. She hadn't offered a compliment to me for quite some time. Maybe some feelings are returning?<P>When I step back from my situation, I see progress. I have realized that this journey will be lengthy. I neglected her a long, long, time and recovering from that will take just as long. We talk a lot (not about marriage issues), we give each other a kiss when we go some place, I give her lots of touch, we date, and we seem to becoming close friends again. I wish we would hug more. I wish we would have long kisses. I wish she would have a desire to touch me. Perhaps in time she will. I sense she is softening towards me. I really believe all the changes I have done in my life she is now seeing them as genuine. The fact that she asks me to do something for her and I do it surprises her. She enjoys the little things I do for her; like replacing her makeup when she runs out, making sure her car is filled with gas and the windows are clean, making sure she has a clean uniform on the days she works three 14 hour shifts in a row. She looks forward to her back rub at bedtime and she sometimes has to tell me to stop so she can get some sleep. I enjoy touching her and I enjoy the closeness of it. Her school starts this next week and I am fearful of past feelings being ignited. <P>To sum things up, I suppose we are cruising along. I have stopped pushing for more and more intimacy between us. I have stopped trying to resolve major issues right now. I am just giving it time. <P>How are you doing FC?<P>SHA

Hi,<P>Don't mean to butt into a private conversation, but, I wanted to say that your wife is a very lucky woman. I envy her for having you.

Thanks ubu. I feel that I am the lucky one. It is crystal clear to me why my W almost gave up on me. I am very thankful she didn't. <P>If you knew me 9 months ago you too would be surprised at the transformation in character. I have missed too many years with my W. I cherish each day that God gives me with her. I seem to have endless energy for her. After 17 years of marriage, I finally know how to be a good H. I pray it's not too late for us to have a happy marriage together. <P>Her ship has come in and she deserves it. <P>SHA

I guess my H feels like you now since our last go round with the OW. We are in our 28th year of marriage and she has tried to get him three times in the past 16 yrs., but this last go round last summer did something to him and he is alot like you now. I just feel like I have lost something.

SHA, I am so glad to hear your recovery is going well - I believe that everything you have mentioned about more hugs and intimacy will soon be headed your way, like you said it will take time, but you seem to have the patience and perserverance and mostly the heart to accomplish all that you have set out to do. I glad to hear your daughter is doing well - I believe all the prayers didn't hurt. I believe God is working in your relationship, and in your life.<P>God Bless

Isiah,<P>Recovery is coming along. Withdrawal is tough and I think that is why she is distant emotionally right now. I believe she is seeking contact with the OM again although I am not certain. I know she will see him when school starts up next week. <P>It hurts to know that all that I do is not enough for her. I'm tired of snooping, I'm tired of worrying, I'm tired of not trusting. I can only do my best. I believe she wants to retain a friendship with this guy. The emotional aspect of the affair is the most difficult part to over come. <P>I am very anxious as to what is going to happen in the next few months. She will have nearly daily contact with the OM until Dec. I fear starting the whole process over again. I don't know if I can do that.<P>On the surface we are doing better, inside I still have many issues.<P>We'll see what happens.<P>SHA

SHA<BR>Hi buddy. The way this board works is kind of amazing. This thread was started by FC and is almost identical to the one you addressed to me a couple days ago. I started working on a response to that offline but am now responding to yours here first. Thanks for your concerns over me but there are some concerns I have over your situation too. So I’ll get to those first. <P>First, I continue to admire your strength and ability to make genuine change. That is my weakness (change). I had forgotten about the return to school and this really concerns me too. Fortunately for me, forced contact is not something I need to contend with. I just don’t know how you are able to deal with this. Is it absolutely necessary? Does she know how you feel about her seeing him in school daily? How does she feel about it? Is she confident it won’t be a problem? Does she say she is committed to rebuilding your marriage? If so, is rebuilding realistic when she is having daily contact? Has she made any commitments to you about how she will handle these contacts? I also am fearful of what may happen. In fact it is hard to imagine their relationship not resuming at some level. You are probably doing the right thing by making yourself as an attractive an option as possible. And it won’t do any good to make a bunch of demands. But it I think she owes you some comfort for the torture this is going to put you through. I know I’m talking about having expectations that may not get met and might be setting you up for dissappointment. This is one of my problems - expectations too high. <P>Please let me know what you think and believe me, I will be praying hard for you this next week.<BR>Ron<BR>

SHA,<BR>Great news for you and your wife and your daughter!!!!<BR>God Bless !!!

SHA,<BR>Great news for you and your wife and your daughter!!!!<BR>God Bless !!!

SHA,<BR>Well, I just wrote you a lovely, and very lengthy reply, and I offered an update. Then, my darling son pressed a pretty lighted button on my computer that turned it off! RRRRRRRRR! As a result I lost my reply to you, and a reply to 2 other posts. I'm in a huff now. I'll try again later. RRRRRRRRr again!!!!!<BR>FC<BR>

Sailor, <BR>Thanks for asking about me. You asked a lot of stuff so let me see if I can address them all.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I continue to admire your strength and ability to make genuine change. That is my weakness (change).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thank you. Christ deserves all the glory. He has given me the strength to make the changes. I realized I didn't like who I was and I was the only one who could change me. My W tried for a long time - to no avail. I read every marriage book I can get my hands on. This forum has also given me strength to continue. I like who I am now. Personally, I think I'm one heck of a husband now. I'm sure my W keeps waiting for me to fall back into my old ways, but I have no desire to do that anymore. Everything I have done has helped me to fall back 'in love' with my W. I really cherish her now and I get pleasure out of giving.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I just don’t know how you are able to deal with this. Is it absolutely necessary? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, it is necessary. It is very difficult for me to deal with, but I'm trying to reestablish trust. I have found that I tire of snooping and wondering. I just don't want to live like that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Does she know how you feel about her seeing him in school daily? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>She knows how I feel. She told me that if I feel any friendship of her bothers me that she will end it. I really appreciated her saying that. So, I am going to trust her that her contact with him will be of a professional manner. I don't know what else to do. I am encourageing her to build friendships with other people to offset her needs in this area.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How does she feel about it? Is she confident it won’t be a problem?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>She isn't worried about it, but I think she is being a little unrealistic. You can't just turn that off so easily.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Does she say she is committed to rebuilding your marriage? If so, is rebuilding realistic when she is having daily contact?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, she's trying. Of course, I would like her to try harder. But, again I know I have hurt her a lot of the years so to expect a loving marriage relationship so quickly is unrealistic for me. She is making steps toward rebuilding our marriage. Many small things that give me hope. I just want more right away (don't we all). I'm not sure what will happen when the daily contact with OM starts. I suppose I will see if she resorts to past behaviors. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Has she made any commitments to you about how she will handle these contacts? I also am fearful of what may happen. In fact it is hard to imagine their relationship not resuming at some level. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No committments. If I were to speculate, I believe she would want to rekindle some level of friendship. I think she misses talking to him as a friend. Personally, I don't understand how just a friendship could be reinstated after what has happened. To this day, I'm not sure if the OM's W even knows what her H did. I think if the OM prusues a friendship I will probably confont him. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think she owes you some comfort for the torture this is going to put you through. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>She knows how much this has hurt me. The comfort I get is that she is trying. I suppose if she resorted to her past behaviours it would be too much for me. If all that I am doing is not enough, then it is not me she wants and I would resort to Plan B. <P>So, I'm anxious as to what will happen in the coming months. But, I also know I am doing my best for her. She will decided what the future is by her actions.<P>FC - Aren't kids special I'm looking forward to your new response.<P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited August 20, 1999).]

SHA,<P>As always i wish you and your W all the best. <P>As i have related to you before, our situations are strikingly similar even down to the fact that i have been a very neglectful H for about 17 yrs. My behavior change resulted from disclosure and with Christ's help i've remained a changed person. I've been practicing the same type Plan A work you're now doing, at least up until last Sunday when W related that she remains unhappy. Similar to your W she sees OM 1-3 time per week. <P>She has now decided we should separate and she will soon begin shopping for an apartment. She will file so the waiting period can start but says she isn't sure she will follow through. I think she will. <P>Having said all this, i'm interested in your comment about pursuing Plan B if (God forbid) your W pursues OM. Question: Assuming you've given it some thought, could you describe the basics of how you would go about implementing? What would be your attitude? Businesslike, but still friendly. Businesslike w/o the friendliness?<P>I hesitate to ask these questions as i don't want to cause you any measure of anxiety, but i value your input based on your past postings and the similarity of our situations.<P>My prayers go out to you and your family.

nlitend, <P>I'm so sorry things aren't going well for you. Are you giving her lots of conversation and touch? Have you tried talking to her about other needs you could meet for her? I would hate to see you two separate. <P>I have thought about my Plan B. We have children so that is a major factor. My W is a wonderful mother and I think I'm a pretty good dad so laying a plan B on her would be a big thing. vmv, once said that he got to the point where he was in a similar situation to ours. He gave all he could and she continued to see OM. He told her that she had to stop or she should make a list of things she wanted to take with her. I suppose I would do the same. <P>I don't think I could handle going through all this again. I can endure a lot, and I will be patient as long as I see at least baby steps back. But, blatant infidelity I will not go through again. <P>Since, children are involved we would still have a lot of contact. I would limit any interaction between myW and myself to the minimum. I would be business like, not hateful or angry. She is my wife. She desreves respect, but she would no longer deserve my love and devotion. <P>All of that is easy to say - implementing it is another story. You appear closer to Plan B than I, so I offer you my prayers and support. I know this must be a very difficult time for you.<P>If I can help in any way, please let me know.<P>SHA <p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited August 20, 1999).]

SHA<BR>I know no one is hoping and praying harder than you that your marriage will recover. But I sure will be disappointed if your W does anything but give you all the credit you are do. It is hard to believe she is not begging your forgiveness now for what has happened. I think you are doing almost all the right things and you probably are doing all of them (the one thing I question is about your encouraging her to have other friendships to meet her needs. Can you please expound on this including how it will benefit your marriage?). I really do think you are headed where you want to go. But I have to tell you, I am anxious for you and I am going to be following this intently (and I’m not a nosy person). You know, our problems are very similar in so many ways but then there are some pretty big differences to. I certainly have some gripes about my W but I just don’t know if I could handle what you are about to start going through. Can I ask a couple follow-up questions? <BR>What are the "past behaviors she may resort to" that you will be watching for?<BR>How will you confront the OM if he pursues your W? I’m glad you are willing to do this but of course you wouldn’t want to do anything stupid. One thing that has surprised me about my W is her willingness for me to confront the OM. I am the type that finds it easy to be confrontational but I really didn’t have much interest in this. I felt like I was lowering myself. Then after I did call and talk to him, I realized what a waste of time it was. But my point is that maybe women want to be fought over (not sure because my W doesn’t seem like the type that would want this - hard to say).<BR>I’m also glad you have set limits. Your approach seems close to ideal. You are a model to many of us here so thanks for all that you are sharing. <BR>

Hey Sailor, <BR>Thanks for responding. Let me see if I can answer your questions and concerns:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I sure will be disappointed if your W does anything but give you all the credit you are do. It is hard to believe she is not begging your forgiveness now for what has happened.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Me too. But, I often wonder, since she seems content with the way things are that (as Jack Nickolson said) "Maybe this is as good as it gets". Maybe my marriage will never be what I have pictured. Maybe my marriage will be all that it is now. That depresses me, because I want mutual affection, mutual love, mutual adoration. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the one thing I question is about your encouraging her to have other friendships to meet her needs. Can you please expound on this including how it will benefit your marriage?).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>One of the serious side effects of me neglecting her over the years is her needs for friends. She was a stay at home mom for most of our marriage. She desires friendships. She desires talking to other adults, not just me. The OM started out as a friend. Now, I am encourageing her to develop female friends. She enjoys having friends like never before. So, I think this will benefit our marriage if the women friends will fill the need that the OM friendship once did. It is all a part of the space she wants. I willing to give her nights out with the ladies - NOT the guys.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What are the "past behaviors she may resort to" that you will be watching for?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>1. Rushing to the computer to check her email as soon as we walk in the door.<BR>2. Phone calls to his number on the cell phone bills.<BR>3. Getting dressed up to go study at the library.<BR>4. Resentment in me doing things for her. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How will you confront the OM if he pursues your W?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not sure. I would try to be diplomatic, but my anger could get the best of me. Looking him in the eye and knowing what he did would unleash a lot of hostility in me. I would have to think about it more.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But my point is that maybe women want to be fought over (not sure because my W doesn’t seem like the type that would want this - hard to say).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Interesting point. 20 years ago when I met my W, I didn't realize she was dating someone else at the same time. Several months into our courtship, the other boyfriend (13 years older and a teacher - pattern going here) shows up at the door ready to recapture his girl. He wanted to duke it out until I stood up. He ranted and raved for a while, threw a chair and left. I met him one other time when we found him sleeping outside her apartment door. What it came down to was her telling him it was over. I can fight if I have to. I would lay my life down for her but, I wouldn't fight for someone who doesn't want me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You are a model to many of us here<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not sure about that. I'm doing my best. I get lots of compliments from everyone here telling me how lucky my W is for having someone like me. I often wonder why she doesn't feel lucky to have me or at least more appreciative.<P>SHA<P>P.S. I also responded to the thread I started about you.<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited August 21, 1999).]

SHA<BR>I have considered too that "this may be as good as it gets". But from what I have read here, if you are successful, it will get much better. I hope I’m not being overly optimistic based on posts by a few on this board. Circumstances can be so different and we are so tempted to want to apply encouraging news others provide to ourselves.<P>I see your point now on friendships. My W was home for about 7 years and returned to work part time about 3 years ago. She is pretty social on her own but I think working makes gives a great deal of social contact that people simply need. But then working can also be a breeding ground for affairs.<P>"Resentment in me doing things for her". Interesting. Why would this be? What kind of things? Things around the house or giving her your infamous hair rubs etc.? I have tried to take on more of the housework and have been surprised that my W doesn’t seem to have any interest in my doing more. It has puzzled me. Only thing I can figure is she is feeling guilty for what she did and doesn’t feel I should relieve her from housework so her life can be easier. She is trying to stay very busy now to keep her mind of all the issues. <P>"I often wonder why she doesn't feel lucky to have me or at least more appreciative". I think that is pretty easy from all I have read here. It isn’t about you. It is about her and having her head so screwed with feelings for the OM, guilt, being unsure, etc. You just continue and she will soon (or eventually) see flaws in the OM, she will begin to be worn down with all the conflict, she will realize she can’t continue things with him and have you too. You know this can’t go on forever. <P>But my biggest concern for you is this continuing contact. Harley says it must stop completely. I read of those who move to other states to prevent it (my parents did when I was 11). Part of me thinks Harley tries to make remedies simple and clear-cut to apply to the masses when things aren’t always that simple. So maybe the "no contact" rule is not always so crucial. But I think it is pretty important in most cases. And I think it is in yours. I see now way your W can have OM as a friend. I’m afraid that daily contacts - even businesslike are going to make it very hard for her to work on withdrawal from him. I know I am pessimistic and I really don’t want to alarm you more than you already are. Perhaps if I knew more of the setting they will be in I would be less concerned (student/teacher, student/student, classes together or apart, last class she is taking, etc.).<P>I’ll jump over to that other thread now. My Mom left this am. W is visiting her M today. Her M lives in the same town where the OM lives. The last time she was over there, she wrecked the car (probably thinking of the OM). So I’m a little anxious today but our daughter is with her so I assume all is on the up and up (even though she told me last night she would rather I not go with her today). By the way, hope your daughters hand is doing better. A pin in the hand of a child is an awful thought.<P>Ron<BR>

Thanks for the reply SHA.<P>To answer your questions, i have done as much loving in Plan A as she would allow. It consisted mostly of goodnight kisses, goodbye (morning only) kisses and the occasional brief backrub. All initiation of affection was done by me and never returned by her. <P>In addition to the attempts at affection i began doing things like always starting dinner before she got home, doing at least 50% of the grocery shopping, cleaning the house on the alternating Saturdays that she worked. <P>Today she has left to look for the apartment, and i'm actually doing much better than i thought i would. I have to, I have the kids.<P>She says there is no feeling of love left for me but that she still cares about me. Because she sees OM at work so often I think she is reminded of the feelings she had during the affair (which she told me she could not remember having for me) and thinks she should have those same feelings for me if she is in love with me. Although she does not appear to be in withdrawl, i think the fantasy of the affair is still alive.<P>She says she has a hard time forgiving me for my past neglect, but i'm afraid she is now doing some things that will be hard for me to forgive in the future. She's going to hurt the kids and sometimes i wonder if that isn't as bad or worse than the affair. <P>It is all i can do to contain my anger and continue to show love towards her. It makes it even harder because now that she feels she is approaching her time of freedom, she is in a good mood and is being so nice to me.<P>I'm sure she has gone to get her girlfriend from work (single and 10 years younger than her) to help her look for the apartment. <P>As she was leaving i wished her good luck.<P>The ONLY thing keeping me going right now is a faith that God will handle this in His way and on His schedule and that my best bet is to not interfere.