K.I.S.S (keep it simple, silly)

H: I want to go spend the weekend with the wild bunch.

W: I'm not enthusiastic about that.

/conversation

No finding ways to "become enthusiastic."

If emotions rise, change the subject until alternatives can be discussed pleasantly.

He came home yesterday morning and said, "let's leave tomorrow to visit the family". I said, "sweet, good plan".

So that's taken care of...we still need to have a little discussion on POJA, but I don't want/can't push him to agree to do anything.

So now I'm off to see the in-laws....Holy nervous.

If he wants to be around you, and wants you both being happy and having fun, its appropriate imo to bring up POJA.

Though he isn't on board with recovery, he is considering things and POJA is something he needs to consider.

Plus if you are standing firm and not doing things that would cause you resentment, he needs to know he can do the same under POJA.

Though he sounds pretty upfront about what he needs, everyone gets tempted to give in to their giver on occasion.

So I am on my way back home from the week with the in-laws. I honestly don't know if it could've gone better. The whole week was really good. When MIL picked us up from airport, of course H was in bathroom when she came in, so I was by myself (scared...), but she gave me a big hug and said it was good to see me.

We immediately went up to their families ranch, where the rest of the extended family was (who all are aware of A's), everyone gave me a hug and said it was good to see me/glad I could make it.

Once we got back to his parents house and it was just us 4, I apologized in person to his mom and dad. Said I was sorry for my actions and for hurting them. His mom said 'thank you' and that they accept my apology. Said that now a days so many young people throw in the towel so quickly and that they're glad that we're putting in the hard work to making our marriage work and that they hope that we can make it work.

The next day, I saw our wedding pictures reappear in the living room (when I got there, I was pretty upset to notice I had been effectively been erased from everything(not necessarily SURPRISED...but still hurts)- although I realize that BH had been planning trips there earlier, so whether they took down our pics b/c of not wanting to trigger him, or not wanting to trigger themselves or anger, I don't know...don't really care)

It's just really good to know that I don't have to be afraid to see his family anymore, and that that isn't going to be an additional something that's hampering our recovery.

I am so thankful.

This was a great note to read, DoroM. Keep working the program, keep making your spouse eternally grateful that he gave you a chance to prove your worth to him. And now that MIL is in your corner, use her as a resource.

Nice read Doro! Keep up the good work on your marriage. It can only get better if you stick with it.

such good news! i'm so proud of you for bucking up and just doing it (going, the apology). so many would have just not gone and faced the music. and you were rewarded for your strength and commitment - that's fantastic. so glad you and H were able to have a good week with family. well done, doro, well done.

There's a different word for that, it's called divorce.

I found our thread rather uplifting and helpful DoroM. I'm a BH working with my WW right now. Things have progressed, but I'm hoping that a more enthusiastic effort will begin within her any day now.

DoroM, I am sure you are an inspiration to other waywards here hoping to earn the F. I know you are educating me as a betrayed on what I would expect from a wayward before I would want recovery. Thank you for continuing to post.

As a betrayed, one of my first conditions shortly after entering Plan B was for the wayward to apologise in person to those I felt he had hurt. My parents have particularly been effected (although after 10 months my list has gotten veeeerrry long )

Reading that you did this apology scored browny points with ME, someone who does not know you IRL. You can rest assured you made major LB$ desposits with your BH. Well done.

thanks for the support and encouragement guys. I guess I felt like it wasn't even an option, really.

His mom and I talked a bit more during the 4 hour ride to the airport. I'm glad we were able to talk about it abit- not like I want it to be brought up at every conversation, but I felt like I should give her the opportunity to ask any questions/comments, etc.

Caracal- I'm curious who else is on your list of apologies? I didn't apologize to his extended family (aunts/uncles/etc), b/c I didn't really feel like they are close enough to warrant an apology. (??) I do plan on apologizing in person to his brother and wife, when I see them in July, and I did to some of his/our close friends, but I'm just curious about your opinion.

i'm not a vet, doro, so my comment may be totally worthless.

i did not require/need an apology to extended family, only to me and our DD. once that was done, i felt complete. he proves to my family (who all know) by how he *treats* me and shows he values me and our marriage. however, all my family lives 12 thousand miles from us, which may be a difference.

so i guess i'm saying it's your BH's needs that are important. if he needs you to apologize to everyone, then that's what you should do. if he doesn't, you needn't. though you could thank them for supporting your BH when he needed them.

take that all with a grain of salt and see what the vets have to say.

Doro,

I think I like your in-laws. It sounds as if it was a good and healing visit.

Reference apologies: I think it would be appropriate to apologize to any/all that you deceived/lied to. My H was chief of staff of a rather large military unit and he apologized at his last staff meeting. He had betrayed their trust as a leader. In addition, he advised against multiple deployments/training separations and recommended "His Needs, Her Needs" to the staff. I think a couple people in that meeting had a wake up call that day and thanked H for his candor.

AM



AM

Doro, have you asked your BH who he feels deserves an apology? I think you should be guided by him, as well as by your own conscience.

My thinking is in line with AM. Anyone who you deceived deserves an apology. Whether it was by lying outright to them, or lying by omission. For me, my list is long because of WH's continued denial to so many people. Many of our loved ones are hurt and feel this is insulting their intelligence. Also, I have some family members or friends who have already been effected by adultery, and I feel those who have lived this he77 deserve recognition of this. I know my going through this has triggered some of them, they have had to relive their he77 in support of me. Anyone who responded to my exposure by contacting me or WH deserves an apology and recognition of their efforts on his behalf.

My list includes my parents, my brother, three of my close friends and two of their husbands, mutual friends whom he has cut contact with, a close family friend, all of WH's sisters, his uncle who has previously survived an affair, three of WH's cousins, and all of our nieces and nephews (mainly to acknowledge his wrongdoing so they know the example he set is wrong).

Your sitch is different and you need to tailor it to you and your BH. But IMO an apology is appropriate for anyone you deceived, or anyone who supported exposure. The affair has effected all of these people.

Wow...it's been a long time. I find time to read on the site on my phone when i'm at work, but don't have a lot of time to post at home, unless H isn't home b/c he doesn't love it when I'm glued to computer.

Anyway...an update. There's been some good and bad going on. The good- our 3 year anniversary was at the end of June, and it went pretty well. In July, he told me he loved me for the first time since DDAY. That was huge and made me incredibly happy.

We're still talking with Steve Harley, although it's been a while since we've last talked (mainly b/c of money).

The bad is we're still dealing with issues that were issues before A. One is that he still has quite a few AO's. Granted, they are not as bad as they used to be, and might not necessarily be directed at me all the time, but I find myself bracing myself while watching a movie with him, b/c if the internet is wonky and the movie skips/pauses, he gets mad. I find myself making decisions on how he's reacting. For example, he wanted to buy an expensive mountain bike from his friend, b/c it was such a good deal. Although we've paid off our credit card debt, we still have a fair amount of debit, including money loaned to me by my father when I was in school. I told him I WANTED him to have it, but I didn't think we should do it because it wasn't a wise financial decision at this time (especialy considering he HAS a mountain bike). So I told him I wasn't okay with it. Then he gets mad. Then later I'm thinking how I don't want him to be mad at me, so I say yes- even though for the cost of the bike, we could�ve have quite a few sessions with Steve. There are other situations like this, not involving money, but they usually involve him wanting to do something, and me giving in so he doesn't get mad at me, b/c he's already got so many other reasons for him to be mad at me.

Another situation where the AO come up is during RC. This has been an issue probably since 2-3 months after we started dating. We would be out rock climbing or skiing and he would get upset and yell at me. Over stupid stuff, it happened enough and was virulent enough that complete strangers commented on it more than once to me.

RC is his top EN. We are both pretty outdoorsy and active, him way more than me. I've still been recovering from my broken leg, and am not back to normal yet. On the day before our anniversary, we went mountain biking- my first time since broken ankle. Biking in 90 degree heat wasn�t my top choice, but I wanted to get some exercise, and I knew he really wanted to, and I wanted to spend time with him. So we went, and then he left me alone on the trail so he could get some *more exercise* on some loops because I�m pretty slow and he wouldn�t get any exercise if he stayed with me. I wasn�t happy about it- because the only reason I wanted to go biking was to spend time with him.

We talked to Steve and he asked about how our RC was going. (few weeks earlier I had conversation with Steve about how H had basically told me he didn�t know how/why we should be married if I wasn�t going to be climbing/biking/skiing/etc- He�s said that multiple times, before and since A.

So everytime we do something RC-wise, I feel like I�m in tryouts for my marriage- if I don�t do well, or if I want to stop, or if I�m scared and cry, he�s going to divorce me). Anyway, Steve had told us we had to find RC activities that we both enjoyed, and both wanted to do, and if they weren�t mutual, H should drop the activity. Ha. H didn�t like that idea, and has said so on many occasions. He says, �_____ is who I am, it�s what I�m passionate about, etc�

Sometime after talking with Steve, we decided to go on a trail run- my first since broken leg. I�d been running slow and on flat surfaces until then and was doing okay so far. I, of course am slow, especially going uphill, b/c it hurts my ankle. He basically got mad and frustrated and wanted to leave me again. He stayed, but was upset about it.

He basically told me the other day, he would love me more if I was more in shape/active/etc. I just feel like I am never going to be good enough for him. I feel nothing I do is going to be acceptable to him in this regard and he�s always going to want more. The only reason I�m somewhat out of shape cardiovascularly right now is b/c I BROKE my leg, and am having issues recovering. Other than that, I�m no less in shape or active than when we met.

We met ice-climbing, and the first two months of dating we were pretty active together. And it seems like once his AO started at me, I didn�t want to do as much stuff together. The thing is, compared to 98% of this country, I�m decently active and in shape. Before I met H, I spent a month climbing and mountaineering in Alaska. Last year, I ran 3 half-marathons, the first one pretty much without training and ran a 10 min mile. A few months ago, we went and climbed that desert rock in the citi-bank commercial- it was great fun and wasn�t even that difficult (climbing wise- the exposure was definitely fear inducing). Even when I was on crutches for my broken leg, I would go to the pool and swim laps.

This isn�t really a situation where I gained 40lbs since we�ve met, and he wants the old me back. I�m no different. Yeah, I�m still injured right now- so I�m not 100%- but I think a physical injury is way different. He hasn�t had much patience for my recovery. I did explain to him, that as I get older I am going to want to take less risks- especially if we have kids.

The other day in the car, when we were talking about this (brought up b/c I didn�t want him to jump off a 60 ft cliff into unknown depth of water, but he did it anyway) he says something to the effect of �not knowing if we were right for each other� and he wishes his wife would jump off a cliff with him. (never mind that the ONLY activity I won't do and ask him not to do is jumping off cliffs) He says that he doesn�t think it�s possible for him to quit all his LB (AO, DJ, criticizing me) and he doesn�t know if it�s possible for me to meet his top EN.

And to be honest, in my heart I�m not sure if I disagree. I disagreed with him, and spouted off all the MB stuff. Your feelings following actions, and the plans in the book LB to stop AO/DJ. But when I write all this I get really discouraged. None of these issues are new- they�ve been issues since the beginning of our relationship. I don�t want to get divorced. I feel like we are working through all the issues of the A�s, and really doing better in that regard. But I don�t want a H who says �F#@*!!!!� angrily, when I get emotional and cry for whatever reason. To me it seems like he wants a dude for a wife that can meet his RC need appropriately.

So anyway�.I�m sorry that was uber-long. Thoughts? Suggestions? I want to make an appointment with Steve soon, but unfortunately, our work schedules don�t match up for a while.

Hey GO, thanks for the perspective.

Yes...POJA. I've brought this up many many times, and he sort of nods his head like it's maybe a good idea, but then doesn't really seem to want to go by it.

We went climbing the other week, moderate/easy stuff- it was actually a really good/successful trip. (I define 'sucess' and him not yelling at me and me not crying). While he's pretty happy to go climb some moderate stuff with me, I know he's not satisfied with it. It's not enough for him for me to climb moderate stuff. He's said many, many times about he can't wait till I can climb such and such. But realistically, that may never happen. I wouldn't care about him leaving me biking/running so much if it was the only time he was able to excercise, but generally, he goes off and spends all day biking/climbing/etc at least 2-3x/week while I'm at work, so he's getting plenty of exercise.

The weird thing is, he's always been pretty negative/not encouraging (although he is getting better with this). Even when I bring up something I want to do athletic-wise, like running this super long super hard race, and I'm excited about it, and then he says something negative and totally shoots me down. Then he backtracks later and says that I should go and do it.
Ha... yeah, seeing so many para and quadrapalegics some of them injured exactly this way has cured me of any desire to ever jump off a cliff.
This is a thought- although I'm not sure what we would do. He's somewhat ADD, and can't (ie: doesn't like to sit still for very long). We watch movies and stuff together, and he enjoys that too. I'm a nerd and would spend all day reading a book if I could.

I don't blow up and fire back. I don't necessarily wait until later to tell him it hurts me, but I usually tell him calmly that it hurts and wasn't very nice. When he gets angry in general, if it's not at me, I generally say really calmly, "hey, it's not that big of a deal, calm down- no reason to get angry". It's not that I've never had an AO, but it's pretty rare. He didn't even fill out the AO part of the LB questionaire for me, and said it wasn't applicable.

When I asked him the other day, what LB I was doing, and how I could be better, he couldn't name any off the top of his hand. I said I know I must be guilty, and he says he knows that I have, but doesn't remember.

There are other LB he does, that he is not willing to change (smoking). We ended up agreeing that he could smoke/chew tobacco whenever he wanted...as long as I didn't know about it. meaning I couldn't smell it/see it/etc. As long as I don't see it/smell it and it's not around me, I don't care. But then even after agreeing, he continues to do it in front of me. I say something nicely, but it doesn't matter.

I told him that every time I see him do it in front of me, it's not so much the smoking itself anymore, but that he KNOWS it hurts me/bothers me and he has no issues doing it. He said he needed some incentive to stop (like a new truck- no joke). And that not hurting me wasn't enough. He said he didn't care about me enough to stop. It's pretty frustrating.

Thanks for your own personal stories. Hopefully, I clarified some stuff up. I'm keeping at it, but it's just so frustrating. He's so much more hardcore about all this stuff than even his friends that he does it with and I just don't know if I can live up to all the expectations.

I asked him what would happen if I got in a car accident and became paralyzed and couldn't do all this stuff, and he said then I better be in the paraolympics or something like that.

Doro is he resentful?

I find all this 'do as I say' stuff and then telling you he doesn't care about your feeling or being injured, pretty alarming.

You are doing the programme. When you speak up about your feelings, and asking for POJA you aren't doing it for you, you're doing it for the marriage. A failure to POJA is relationship cancer.

You say when you speak about it he nods his head. Have you sat down and actually gone through the POJA steps? Writing down brainstormed solutions? If you pick a solution, then set a deadline it must be implemented by. If the deadline comes and goes and he hasn't done it. Say 'you haven't done it and that makes me think you weren't really enthusiastic. Let's do this again, and this time pick a solution you can really do'.

Don't give in.
Don't let it drop.
Stick to POJA.

Some people practice POJA on a small scale by going to the supermarket and only things POJAd by both go into the basket.

Steve will give you additional tips.

Sounds like you're handling the AOs well.

He can be resentful sometimes, but it's pretty rare. It's possible he's hiding it, but usually I can tell how he's feeling and he'll admit that he's feeling angry about everything that happened.

It's not that he doesn't care about my feelings at all...it just happened in that one instance he said he must not care enough. He can be pretty sweet a lot of the time. We have not actually gone through the POJA steps. When I say he nods his head, he seems to sort of agree that maybe POJA is a good idea, and then we stop talking about it. He does ask me about bigger stuff (plans for activities, and future jobs...for instance, he asked me what I would think about a job that keeps him away 7 nights at a time- I said 'no way!',I said it would kill us.)

I did ask him last night about his expectations of me when it comes to RC and being in shape- he had mentioned a few days ago about 'being patient and waiting for me' and that he feels like he's been waiting for ever. I told him I was the same 'fit-wise' as when we had met (minus the ankle issues), and when he says he's been waiting, has he always been expecting me to get more athletic since we've met. He said, 'I guess, yes'. It's sad and frustrating because I've always felt I wasn't good enough for him in many aspects, and he usually confirms my feelings sooner or later.

I understand EN's, and in the book when it talks about people changing from who they were when they met to someone different- (like from skinny to fat), and the spouse wanting them to change back. This sucks b/c he wants me to change into someone I never was. I asked him if he was going to be unhappy if I never became that person, and he said, "yes, a part of me will be unhappy."

On the upside of things, last night I said that I didn't want to divorce, and he said he didn't either.

We are still having some isssues...regarding his expectations of me, and life in general. I tell him how much it kills me inside knowing he wants me to be so much more hardcore and in shape than I have ever been, and he says he understands and he is trying not too. And his next statement is, "if you could just climb 5.10, and run long distances, etc" I reply that I ran 3 half marathon's last year...how far does he want me to run? It's so hurtful. I don't tell him how I wish he would change when I know that's not who he is.

This month has been hard spending time together bc of our work schedules. And his copilot this month is a girl. Apparently, an attractive one. He knows I'm not thrilled about him spending hours in a small cockpit, talking to a girl, and he says he's careful about what he says, etc. One morning he was at work, I called him and he said he was at breakfast, and I asked if he was alone, he said no, and I asked if he was with a girl. He said yes.(not that it matters but apparently this was a different coworker than the one hes flying with all month). Then he told me later that he had gone down to the hotel bar with a guy coworker and thegirl was there and they hung out for 15 minutes before he left. He just told me a few days ago that the girl he's working with this month txted him telling him her car might be broken. He said he told her "good luck" and then erased it bc he didn't want her number in his phone. I don't think anythings going on, but it seems like it's really hard for me to get him to understand how important it is that we follow MB.

In the past 3 weeks, we haven't seen each other much. Last week he wanted to go in an overnight climbing trip with his friend. Normally, I wouldn't care, but I told him we had hardly seen each other. His argument is that I wouldn't be home from work till 7, so that would only give us a few hours before I go to bed at 10. And he was talking about how he needed time to get out with his friends, and there needed to be a balance, and he needed to get out and exercise. He had 2 full days till 7pm, to do whatever he wanted. I understand, that when it comes to climbing big mountains, sometimes you need more than a day trip.

told him my instinct was to tell him to go and do it, but clearly my own instincts about marriage are not very good, so I had to stick to the plan - which means spending a certain amount of time together. I told him I questioned everything at times like these, bc it makes me wonder if I will ever be put before climbing. And what happens when we have kids and things are so much busier and we have even less time together, is he going to be angry with me that he cant spend days on end in the mountains. Then he says, "well Joe and sally just had a baby and Joe goes out...how come sally doesn't tell Joe he cant go". All I could say to that is that WE are not Joe and sally. And then I was seething inside that he is comparing me to another mans wife.

The covnvo ended with him saying he would stick to day trips so we could see each other at night. Then when those days came around, we were able to hang out Wednesday night after he got home from work, but on Thursday night he didn't come home from climbing till after 830pm, and so I was not super happy about that. So Friday, I come home from working thinking "he's not gonna be late again! " but he is... he doesn't get home till after 1030pm, effectively standing me up. After waiting for him fir hours, I had finally gone to bed. Then he says hes sorry, yada yada.... so we got to hang out just on Saturday, which I tried so hard and mostly succeeded at not ruining bc I was so hurt.

Sunday he leaves for work again, and hes gone for an extra 2 days bc of a job interview, but he has the nerve to ask if he goes climbing on Friday while I'm at work and something happens that's bad and slows them down and he's late, if he can get a pass. I told him by that time I wont have seen him in 5 days, so NO!

These aren't new issues for us. He has told me many times now that he does NOT want to get divorced, and that he loves me. Its just frustrating, I'm jot sure what to do about it, if anything.