Hi all,

I've been familiar with MB for a long time - years now, since in my 1st M, WxW had an affair (well, 2 actually) and I used MB for a while in the 2002-3 kind of timeframe (using a different name). The M did not survive in that case, and I had a few short relationships after the M and one longer one - I did a lot of growing. In 2007 I met my now W, we had a short pre-M relationship (15 months) and have been married for a bit over 2 years now. I'm 41, she's close. After M, we had DD fairly quickly too, who's now between 1 and 2 yo.

W and I have always had what seems like a good/close relationship. We have pet names for each other, W loves to take photos of us and our now family of 3, we're frequently doing things together (she's got very little unaccounted for time - as a recent example she was on a work trip for a week and was saying how much she missed DD and I both, and in fact she found a way to get us both down to stay with her for the 2nd half of her work trip). She still goes out of her way to demonstrate love many times. We kiss each other good-bye every morning and say "I love you". Another thing I'll say about W is that she "feels different" from XW - with XW, in hindsight I could see she wasn't really investing in our relationship a lot (a "renter") because she'd had a long-ago EA/PA with a coworker even before we were M. She was actually closed off from me in many respects. Current W makes a point of saying "I try to be an open book for you, H. I tell you what's on my mind." I've also set higher bars for W - I'm glad to be open about my expectation that she'll be H&O with me, for example - something I never really did with XW. Also, W's dad engaged in A's and she's always looked at that and how it hurt her mom as being "defining" for her.

What leads up to this entire post, really, is W and I spent a weekend with a few friends of ours (well, they were all mine before I met W, but we all hang out together in varying degree - usually 3-4 times a year, sometimes more, sometimes less). I rented a vacation house and we drove up there, carpooling with a friend (F) of mine - a guy I've only comparatively recently been spending more time with (we used to hang out years ago but kind of drifted apart, only to come back together a couple of events ago). My F is very out-going and funny. He also has a great job and can afford two apartments, just because! He's fit (rock climber, marathon runner, etc.), he's intelligent, he's got a lot of worldly experience (different languages, well read, something my W is intrigued by). Now, I'm *not* saying I'm *not* any of those things! Obviously W felt I've got "enough" of these traits she's attracted to in order to fall in love and M me. BUT, during the long drive, W and F seemed to have a strong connection through conversation that I suddenly felt inaqeduate in. For example, F was making jokes in German that W thought was hilarious and I was left to just "laugh at the periphery" many times, if that makes any sense. Or W would mention some obscure movie that had some emotional meaning to her and F would have seen it and they'd have some discussion about it - and I'd be clueless.

I would not expect my F to "dumb down" just for my benefit - I don't think he sees me as "competition" or even that my W is a "target"... I think for him, he's just who he is and acts that way with everyone. He's not ashamed to talk about girls he hits on and things, but rather than that making him seem like a creep, I actually think it attracts women on a subconscious level (perhaps the ladies can comment). If he was missing the other positive qualities I mentioned I doubt it would work for him, but I know it works because even another friend of mine's W likes him too suggesting she wants to set him up with a friend of hers. I also wouldn't expect W to "dumb down" either for my benefit. She's an amazing woman whose worldiness and out-going personality attracted me from the start. I'm just built a bit different and have not had the same kinds of life experiences. Yet when it's just W and I driving somewhere distant, we can also have lots of good conversation too, if perhaps somewhat less. I will admit I shut-down a bit on the drive home - some reasons I'll make apparent later.

I guess my question is mainly directed towards ladies of the board... I certainly know about the Love Bank principle - and I agree it's a reality. But I also wonder if there's another layer that it works with - a layer of "attraction" that's based on things like: "demonstrating you understand her", "being the 'prize' of the room - confidence, leadership, popularity", "not generic or boring", "stability and ambition" and "safety and trust". These attributes are something that can "kick start" the Love Bank - and operate at an unconscious level of women's "wiring" so aren't something that's easily turned on or off. Perhaps they're a subset of the EN list, perhaps they stand alone - but I think most would agree you don't feel *attraction* for guys who are missing these traits, and attraction is necessary for that "passionate" romantic love. When you're around someone who possesses these traits, that's when you can get the feeling of excitement that many waywards are addicted to, but is also a factual part of biology. (Ladies, comments?)

Another related question would be, how have you handled things when you've had people like I've described in your life: perhaps a H who's a bit introverted and a friend (eg. of H's) who's the life of the party. Maybe this is a fairly unique situation, maybe not, but if you can imagine it if you haven't lived it, maybe answer from that angle.

It could be that I'm still a bit overly sensitive on some level due to my XW's behavior. I'm willing to accept that I'm reading way too much into this situation and should continue with my Plan A for life - perhaps review and tune it. I feel though that in the spririt of radical honesty that maybe I should talk to W about this also. However I don't know what to really *say* because this isn't really a problem of W's - *yet* - assuming she doesn't dwell on F and start an EA, even if unintended now. With enough Love Bank deposits and the romantic love threshold met, Dr.H would suggest her feelings would go from "like" (she clearly does now!), to "romantic love" for F. I've got a feeling F is smart enough to know the disaster such a thing would incur - DD is clearly something I would fight over in a big way, even if W doesn't expect that.

Right now I'm feeling unusually self-conscious. When W and I met, I'd ingrained a lot of the "attraction" aspects into *my* life as well and it clearly did the trick - romantic love was easy to kindle and grow in our earliest days, and even in our M vows one of the things W mentioned that attracted her to me was my self-confidence. Today we still act "in love" a heck of a lot more than XW and ever did! But I will say that things have "cooled down" with time, with needing to raise a young DD, and busy lives. For me, an important EN is SF and that's gone from at least 3-4 times a week (before M and up to DD conception) to maybe 3-4 times a month, it seems. Even with us mildly trying to conceive the last several months, it's not going to happen at this rate, shall we say!

Another thing that bothers me is my F and W on the drive home were engaging in conversation that was pretty sexually explicit at times. Nothing of a sexual nature between them or anything, of course, but the kind of conversation that honestly a lot of close friends can end up having - some of it started with the many jokes (some crude) that F frequently tells. I know that for some people that would be an immediate red-flag/problem, but I was engaging in it too somewhat - if I were driving with F alone, I'd honestly be having the same kinds of conversations without batting an eye. Or as another example, W brought up her reading 50 Shades recently - and we were all joking and making social commentary about the fact it's essentially dressed up porn (but my W definitely liked the back-story). I almost feel prudish by even bringing this aspect up, but now that it's a bit further out from the event, part of me feels like W was responding a bit "too much" to F. But then there were a few occasions during the drive when W would say something reassuring and positive about our M to F (eg. the comment about being an "open book" as being a positive in our relationship was mentioned by W and there were a couple of other examples). And even my F was demonstrating that he's just being *our* friend too. For example, he said at one point "you guys are doing a great job raising DD". Another positive thing W asked a different friend of ours was about the spacing of his kids - with a clear implication related to our situation. If I were feeling a bit more self-confident in the moment, I doubt I'd even mention this whole paragraph (or maybe the entire post!).

Another thing that happened which I wish I could just brush off, but affected me - one of the days of the trip, I had a dream where W convinced me that we should "partner swap" and she had sex with F right in front of me (well, most of it was deleted in my dream, thank goodness!), and after said to F, "F, thank you very, very, very much that was so excellent" as she was putting her bra back on... Ugh! My subconscious was obviously working overtime on this topic. I didn't say anything about this - if it were a different context, I might have, but it seemed almost like I'd be highlighting the "problem" on some level.

Perhaps it's my imagination amplifying everything, but even this morning, W was saying she didn't sleep all that well because she was "restless" last night and didn't know why. I hate that word, because it's something XW used at times to describe what I didn't know then but was her "wayward mindset" - I think we all understand what that means. And she just seemed a bit distant since the time we got home - nothing concrete, just a feeling... a feeling that just too closely resembles feelings I had during XW's A.

Another concern of mine is this is probably affecting my general attitude. My tendency is to pull away under stressors like this - that's just how I operate. It could become a self-feeding problem if I'm not careful, since part of me feels a need to reassert my positives to W, through action. As such, my plan right now is to just Plan A a little better than I have been doing. At the same time any "sudden changes" might look strange, so just a gradual boost to the most important EN's or those which need some attention. Although we discussed having F and us getting together for dinner sometime, I might put that off for a while and just observe W's attitude, first, and see if my feeling of confidence about things changes. I would hate to exclude F from future events because he's frankly fun to be around, other friends like him and excluding him would be weird now, if impossible (without needing to drop ourselves out completely - and sacrifice the RC that goes along with it - something clearly valuable to W & I's relationship, a very high EN for both of us, and the social proof from the trip is actually very good - I had everyone thanking me profusely for doing the planning, something I enjoy.). Honestly, I would be surprised if he doesn't come with a girlfriend sometime, and even now I wonder why in the world he doesn't have one (Perhaps a player? Could be, since he's nearly 40 along with the rest of us. I actually know him deeply the least of all our friends, although I learned some more on the trip.).

And I need to work on my self-image too. When I met W, I perhaps looked and acted a bit more like F, and I think I've grown complacent a bit too much. However I've still taken lessons from 1st M such as not "over working", or thinking sex = affecton, or treating W like my mom. My ability to see things at a higher level that MB has given me at least lets me spot these kinds of concerns perhaps before anything becomes of them - but I still feel a bit clueless at the moment regardless, which seems odd, hence my reaching out for some impartial advice.

I know that if this were really to turn into a problem, I'd have to ask if a M of less than 3 years would be worth saving if a W were to make such bad choices, even when she's in a M where she claims she's in love with her H and claims is the type to be open about her thoughts and feelings. I do know I'd certainly handle things very differently - I did not do a good job with exposure and such in 1st M. I believe in "trust but verify" too, meaning I'm willing to GPS her and such, if my gut convinces me I should. I'm also much more confident in my survival abilities - I'd hate to lose the M but deeply know and understand I would be "ok" as well - on a subconscious level I think this contributes to W's belief in my self-confidence. I hate being here brining up this topic because life has been so much better with W in it, and of course now DD who we both love to bits.

Sorry, it got long but I know there's a lot of good minds here who might have thoughts...

Welcome back to MB, Feenix. Can you remember your previous posting name? I do like to look up someone's history.

Do you think you could ask two or three questions that arise from your post? I'm not sure what specific issue you are asking for help with.

What I do know, though, is that the solution to feeling uncomfortable about your wife's banter with your friend is to stop bringing him around your wife. You seem to be over-thinking the whole issue. If you feel uncomfortable, put an end to it.

Problem solved.

SC, thanks for such a fast reply... previous name was "JR", I think. Last post on that was probably 2004 or even earlier. In many ways I'm such a different person from the guy that posted back then, so not sure how much value you'll get.

The specific question is probably what you aluded to... "What would you do?"

Saying not to bring him around W makes perfect sense. I was willing to be told things like, "It may be premature to assume that's necessary", or "Definitely treat it like an A if you feel it's like an A and that means NC", or same as last but add "... and you should confront W about your dream because it bothered you and RH dictates no secrets", or "Talking at length about an A that isn't even an A remotely yet is probably counter-productive - work on your Plan A involing yourself more if you feel it's 'off' and be observant of W and M for a while until you can say more definitively what you'd actually say."... that kind of thing.

Feenix, I don't have the time to read such a long post, but I gather from reading Sugarcane's post that this concerns your discomfort about your wife's opposite sex friend? If that is the case, I would ask her to end it because it makes you feel uncomfortable. Opposite sex friendships are a threat to any marriage. That is how affairs begin!

Dr Harley has a newsletter on it in the newsletter section.

oh wait! I see it concerns your friend? In that case, I agree that you just stop bringing him around and talk to your wife about the way your wife interacts with him.

ML,


I agree that's perfectly valid. Just wondering from a female perspective if saying, "Honey, I think you and F's relationship seems too friendly." - especially when they've only really seen each other *rarely* in their lives (2 or 3 times), comes across as being domineering or ridiculously jealous / controling. I kind of am openly questioning if I'm being over-analytical and should just chill out. The sex dream is what probably really got me worked up most.

Reducing our interaction with F is an easy thing to do - he lives a long ways away, we have a lot of family events, etc. to manage, and he's my friend, not W's, so I kind of am the gateway. What my deeper concern is, I guess, goes beyond F and is more about my own self-doubts. That's probably beyond the scope of this board, I suppose.

Yes, just tell her you are very uncomfortable with the way she interacts with F, because it is too familar for your comfort. Ask her to stop it. Jealousy is a normal reaction to a threat in marriage. The solution is for her to stop doing the things that make you feel jealous. You aren't going to be able to chill out if she keeps doing that. You CAN chill out if she will knock it off.

By telling her, you establish your comfort level with her so she knows not to do this with other men. And she can't know to stop doing it if you don't tell her!

I think a lot of us BSs know what you mean about self-doubt, Feenix.

The trouble is that there are many people out there that, if you compare their looks and appeal with your own will look better. If we are going to go down the route of comparisons we will end up very insecure. If our spouse does the comparing then they are bringing an element of risk to the marriage.

To a large degree, MB encourages us to limit interactions with the opposite sex. It also encourages us to spend our most enjoyable times alone with our spouse. This is done in recognition that we and our marriages are vulnerable to the right combination of outside attractions and opportunities. The sensible thing to do is to cut out the factors that lead towards an affair, long before we get close to actually having an affair. It is not sensible for the troubled spouse (you) to try and manage their feelings, instead.

I think that perhaps a lot of women might say that raising your fears is being domineering or ridiculous/jealous/controlling, but they haven't learned what we have learned from MB about how affairs begin and how they should be protected against. People in general - in society - might say that, but we on this forum know better.

Feenix,

You might have been describing OM1 in my case, charming, selfish, a serial cheater, a good friend of mine. They cheat as a matter of habit and think themselves utterly blameless.

Those kinds of dreams are quite haunting, but reveal an inner voice you should listen to.

Is this OM similar to OM your exW cheated with in ways that you have noticed?

God Bless
Gamma

I will never allow my wife to have a male friend again. Period. The end.

Fool me once, shame on you...

It's the husband's friend though, Mike, not the wife's, and If I read the story correctly, the wife has not been alone with this man. Therefore it is the husband's job not to bring this man around his wife any more.

Yea, understood. My buddy intro'd us to OM and his wife a long time ago. OM quickly glommed onto my wife and the rest is a miserable history. I did leave my wife and OM alone so, yes, that cant happen no matter how these 2 met in this situation.

That's correct - well, in theory anyway. At this point, W could choose to "friend him" on FB for example - I don't think he is currently. Insisting that I have control over her friends would be a radical departure from our relationship. I agree that many in society would see it as controling and MB folks often know better in that way... but at the same time, putting a bubble around her has never been necessary even though she has like 500+ FB friends and I have maybe 130. I've never had a sense that control was needed because she's always been attentive to me, and honestly we still seem like we're at the tail end of our honeymoon period (married a little over 2 years, lots of fun and happiness).

I know she probably knows a FEW guys who on paper probably are "better" than I am and I think you're spot-on, SC, when saying that. I think it was the previous experience's scars that are getting irritated by this, and it's not so much F specifically as it could be any guy who pushes her attraction buttons consciously or unconsciously. I'm sure it's happened to her since we've known each other, and I've trusted her a lot because we've been open about things and our feelings. But just some little reactions she had yesterday just got me feeling queasy again, valid or not. (Another one: she seemed dismayed that F had to drive an hour or so from our place where he had his car parked - was she even hinting to ME that we should invite him to stay over? Seemed like a possibly excuse to spend more time with him.)

What I'm now struggling with the most is how to phrase any conversation we have related to this. I don't know it's fair to ask her to "stop it" because what am I asking her to stop? We had a car ride with a friend and might not again for many months, assuming we ever hang out again on another event (open question, so far). Ask her to stop having conversations with guys about things that interest them both? Not realistic - I'm certain she has dozens of them everyday - as I said, she's out-going and easy to talk to - one of the things I like about her.

Gamma, no, OM from 1st M was completely different - Asian, didn't speak English well, struggling to meet end's meet, etc. - then again, I'm working with a different W now as well. If F was actually "hitting on" W, that'd be brazen beyond belief, but you never know... I would hope my W could see through that veneer, but per my original post, I think some of that's really not something under conscious control.

If W were to come home tonight and be happy and warm with me and possibly act like she had any interest in SF, I might not even be concerned and could gently just work on a better Plan A, but I suspect that's what you're referring to when SC you said:


So I think I do need to work on saying something perhaps more generalized - as in, not specific about F, because the more I talk it through, I doubt this is about F directly. It's more about helping me feel safe, that she does have the boundaries I've always believed she has.

Hmm, it could simply be ignorance on their part, as they've never been betrayed themselves....

But I think its totally natural to be bugged by sexual references between your wife and a male friend.

I would with female friends and wouldn't with male, but she may not be aware of the way it can be seen.

As well as keeping him out the way, I would respectfully tell her what bugged you.

Ask her in future to always consider you in the conversation and not leave you out. Add that the sexual references bugged you and how that might be handled in future. Remember you may not always be around when sexual references are being made between a mixed sex group.

Just tell her what bugged you and why. Use POJA to set future boundaries that you can both be enthusiastic about in similar situations.

I am a bit puzzled as to why you want the 'female view' though. Women often disagree with each other on this subject, plus its YOUR comfort level that's important.

POJA means never allowing a situation that makes you, the man, uncomfortable or jealous - or gives her those feelings either.

Only you can say what's acceptable to you. May I ask why you are afraid you will be called controlling and jealous? If you POJA regularly, you will know that methods eliminates any one-sided control and that everyones feelings (including jealousy) are accounted for.

Before I became a BW I would prob have viewed this request as 'jealous' but I would have liked having the ability to rouse jealousy and I would not have made my H unhappy on purpose after knowing.

It all boils down to the respectfulness of your requests. Don't let things mount up until you become tempted to demand.

Indie, well said, thank you. I think that's consistent with my last post where I do acknowledge that a simple, brief discussion around this makes sense. The longer I leave it, the weirder it would probably come across as (this trip ended yesterday evening).

Problem is, I tend to be over-analytical and have been known to have troubles expresing myself in emotional things, so my temptation is to sit down and analyze every possible thing we could say in such a conversation before we have it. Your point is taken, however, that I should just say it simply and cleanly.

My fear is what I'd need to say is "Your conversations with F yesterday made me feel at times like F was your H, not me, if I were an outside observer. By that I mean..." and then I need to get into details that make me sound whiny, possessive, prudish, jealous, etc. - but as you said, that's not necessarily all bad! (depending on the delivery)

And of course, this kind of conversation almost dictates that we part ways with F as friends, because it may make things too ackward in the future - which makes me really sad. I'm still not 100% convinced I'm not over-reacting somewhere, somehow... but I'm seeing a lot of comments that imply we need to avoid F in the future, whether purposefully or "not" (eg., do events he can't make or avoid the ones he can).

Why? Don't you use MB principles? OS friendships, particularly on Facebook are not really suitable for married women. Men can message you any time, day or night, drunk or sober. And especially not friendships that make you uncomfortable!



Again, POJA is not control. You love her, so everything she does affects you and vice versa. So you need mutual consent in everything. Plus fun and happiness are not the same thing as boundaries. This is like saying your front door doesn't need a lock because its painted a pretty colour.

In fact your happiness and pleasure in each other is something that attracts a certain type of predator.


Have you made it safe for her to tell you when she (quite naturally) finds someone attractive? Do you tell her when it happens? Do you practice radical honesty? You shouldn't be wondering about this - you should know.



Plan A? That's for waywards! I thought we were just discussing boundaries due to some small issues? You don't Plan A a non cheating spouse, you practice radical honesty. Whereas you wouldn't be honest with a wayward.

Feenix, I can't speak for all women of course, but I don't know any faithful wives who would not be thrilled to hear, "I got insanely jealous of the conversations between you and F on that trip we took. I had bad dreams and everything, it made me feel like a caveman who wanted to just drag you back to my cave and hide you, but the more rational me just wants to tell you, ouch! Can you help a lovesick guy out here, and make sure that I get your best attention in the future?"

Your wife does not sound like the type to respond poorly to that.

I also agree to cut out group socializing with this guy, but don't see any need to announce that since it is seldom anyway.

I would explain to her what bothered you about her conversation with this man so she can be sure to not do it again. Was it overly familiar? Too friendly? What? It is very, very fair for you to ask her to stop doing anything that bothers you. You recognize a risk to your marriage and it should be addressed and corrected. She won't know there is a problem unless you tell her.

Is she too easy going with other men? What exactly? You need to tell her this so she can make changes.

I would also have a discussion about her opposite sex friendships. That is dangerous to marriage. It is how affairs begin and surely you don't want to take that kind of risk in your marriage?

You might want to begin by printing up Dr Harleys article about the danger of opposite sex friendships and let her know that this is a danger to marriage.

Thats great! They could be one of the millions of affairs that start every year on facebook! What is one more?

Feenix, I think that part of the problem that indiegirl has identified is that you used to post on MB years ago, when Dr Harley's methods and concepts were not really focused on very much. Certainly they were not rigorously offered as the solutions to marital problems.

It seems to me that you might not have practiced POJA in this new marriage, and possibly not many of the other concepts either. You have practiced "being happy during the honeymoon period", but now that that period is coming to and end, you are at a loss to know how to deal with problems and conflicts that arise day-to-day.

I think that anybody who began posting here in the last couple of years, whose marriage collapsed because of infidelity, would only go into a new marriage with the Harley concepts built in at the ground floor. They would want to see that their future spouse is willing to protect the marriage against opposite-sex friends including on Facebook, and using POJA to make decisions about everything from leisure time to friendships.

It is a pity that your new marriage did not start from the foundations of POJA, transparency and honesty, but those things need to be brought into it now to avoid the marriage becoming wrecked.

Your wife should have no objection to what you are asking her to do about male friends and Facebook. If she does, you already have a problem.