We've discussed this issue quite a bit and finally have a plan that I will accompany him on overnights. So far it has never panned out: this last trip I was going to go, but my boss plopped a huge director's retreat on top of it...not something I could easily miss.

So I stayed here. He did cut his trip down, and I've already put in PTO requests for his next 2 trips. Problem is, I don't have as much vacation as he does, and we have 4 kids. Not easy, but doable.

The main thing that bothers me is how angry and dismissive of my feelings he's been on this - and many other - issues. It's exhausting to be married to someone who hates the POJA, does what he wants, then blames me for all our problems.

Dr. H says women usually love the POJA, and men typically have hard time accepting it. Too bad we can't all marry women.

I hear you, Z. I hear you! Having 4 kids and going anywhere is certainly not an easy feat, especially if you do not have much support.


I completely relate to this: "The main thing that bothers me is how angry and dismissive of my feelings he's been on this - and many other - issues. It's exhausting to be married to someone who hates the POJA, does what he wants, then blames me. "

Thanks, Gdar.

Well, someting kind of magical happened last night. Here's the scoop:

H said several times this week, "Fine, let's separate." or "Fine, let's build an exit strategy." Mostly in response to disagreements like what time we should turn on the AC, when we should discuss the budget, etc. Not real helpful.

So I asked him yesterday why he kept saying that, is that what he wants? He said no, that's what I want (hmmm, really?). So I told him that's not what I want, I want a great marriage. Could we agree not to use that threatening phrase anymore, because it hijacks me and I have a harder time solving our problems? He agreed.

So...with that out of the way, we agreed to meet for dinner after my DDs dance recital dress rehearsal.

At dinner, he started doing 'verbal jiu-jitsu' with me. When I complained about something, he said, "I think I'm hearing you say X, is that right?" Yes. "And you'd feel better if I did Y, right?" Wow, yes! "OK, that's what I'll do." I teased him, "What are you doing? Are you my therapist now?" - it was cute and we laughed.

He told me it's a strategy Steve had taught him. His main motivation for using it was so I didn't go "on and on" about something. I said I LOVE it! It makes me feel heard and seen.

He kept doing that all night. It was awesome. Here's the magic:

For the first time in months, I ENJOYED his company and I want MORE of him.

I had forgotten how great that feels! I am happy today.

And yes, I told him, "I really enjoyed your company last night. I had so much fun with you!" I'm gonna go hug him (he likes that).

Yay Z! That is so great! Wonder why he waited to pull that outta his hat?! The good news cleary, he IS listening and did apply Steve's advice. That is huge, go Mr. Z!

Isn't it so great to actually enjoy spending time with your man, and even look forward to it? I actually look forward to my H getting home from work now, and his days off. It's funny something must be in the air...my H did some great communicating last night as well.

I thought he was trying to delay some UA time to finish a TV program, I was very upset....so I pouted for a minute (bad plan) then actually told him why I was upset...turns out was simple misunderstanding, and he did a great job explaining AND letting me know I AM his top priority! He did say a couple things at first that I didn't like, but self corrected.


Hope you and your H have a great weekend together. I look forward to the next update!

UGH! Please just ignore typo's I can't type (or spell) today at all for some reason.

Your husband just dropped a hint.


I suggest you listen to it.

Z,

That's exactly how my wife and I started addressing each others complaints. It was a tactic taught to us by a marriage class at our church. It's a neat trick because often men and women misunderstand each other because of communication styles. She would often take things for more than I was saying and she would often mean what she said but not always say what she meant. This way both people are clear.

YES! Go Mr. Z!

TisMe, that's great you are enjoying time with your H too. So happy for you! (that self-correcting thing they do really helps, don't it - wink!)

Glad it works for you too, KT! I sure do like it.

Funny you say this, HHH...I did catch it and listened. Then we joked about it for a while, cause I said, "I'm hearing you say you don't like it when I go on and on about something, right? And you dislike it when I say things over and over, or when I just repeat myself and say the same things time and time again. Is that right?"

...anyway, it was funny to us, and I learned something.

Update: this weekend continued to be pretty good, with us caring for one another and having fun.

I will say that sometimes I get annoyed by his playing on his new Kindle (literally for hours and hours) - but I think the glow is still there so I'm more willing to overlook things (I do tell him when it starts to bug me). And I notice when he does seek out my companionship, so it feels good.

We went out last night and had a great time. We had breakfast together, went to the pool and bought fun things together today.

We are going out tonight again, so that's fun.

Session with Steve in the morning. My Love Bank Inventory was higher than it's been since we started, though I still feel ambivalent about certain things...time and continued progress should take care of those eventually.

We met with Steve this morning. We talked about our parenting plan, trust, and how to complain 'correctly.' We also talked about how great H's new strategy of "verbal jiu jitsu" works...that it really feels good to be seen and heard. Steve said it's all good, keep doing what we're doing, check in daily with each other on things like parenting, etc. He pointed out that we're discovering that teamwork and coordinated effort really brings about great feelings for each other. AMEN.

Steve recommended a group AM course rather than individual counseling. I was hoping we could do something through insurance, but if the group sessions work better (not covered by insurance), then I'm ok to pay out of pocket.

Steve asked me one-on-one if I feel safe. I said yes, because I have a plan if anything else happens and have made my expectations clear. However, I have seen a few things that tell me we're not 'there' yet...and four days of goodness doesn't make a marriage. So I am cautiously optimistic. He said good, keep going. I also told him that I unilaterally told 3 couples at our church what is going on because I felt like I needed a safety net of sorts. He said that's also good. He said it's also ok to feel ambivalent...there's nothing wrong with wanting to see continued progress.

I asked him what I can be doing now. He said, "Be encouraging. Not 'woohoo, we've arrived!' encouraging, but just tell H that you are pleased with the progress so far, it seems to be working, and you're hopeful that it will continue to work as we go." That's easy, I've been doing that already.

He really doesn't tell me to do much, which is interesting. He also didn't wring me out for not meeting H's ENs for 4 days post-AO last week. I told him I avoided LBs, but really didn't have the heart to meet H's ENs. But I'm doing it now. I always feel safe talking to Steve, and I'm always surprised when he doesn't chew me out. What's up with that?

Anyway, we're going to keep at it and talk to Steve again on Friday.

I think H is feeling pretty good too. He said it seems to be working and he feels good about it, so that's good.

I will give an update on our last few days later...met with Steve yesterday.

While I can see some progress, I'm starting to believe that this is going to be harder than I thought.

Do people really change? I mean, habits can be changed (people lose weight, stop smoking, etc) - but do people fundamentally transform? I think they have to do it from the inside, and no one can "make" them, only encourage their efforts.

These are the thoughts going through my mind now. Steve is great, but he cannot 'effect' change - only we can do that.

Hmmmm. (Philosophy again....)

And then what follows this line of thinking is...


what?

Warning: If you are a die-hard optimist, this is a moment of pessimism so you may want to skip this post.

We continue to cycle in and out of good/bad days. I'd really like to see this marriage turn around once and for all....but some days I have my doubts.

We're in week 10 of counseling with Steve and I don't see sustained improvement. Steve told me to be 'encouraging' and I'm trying, but some days I am so sick inside I can barely go on.

And I've been reading CWMI's thread "Duped" in which she talks about their continuing struggles, even after 6 months of MB counseling. Her H still struggles with the POJA - seriously, driving the boat in a way that frightens your wife out of her wits? This isn't rocket science - why is it so hard for some people?



I want to ask Steve about our prognosis. Any good doctor can tell you what the "odds" are - I'd like to know ours before we continue treatment. There's only so much emotional energy a person has: I want to put it where it's gonna show a return on investment.

Sigh.

It isn't rocket science, and my marriage spans 12 years, and if scaring me on the boat is the worst of it, I'm just a lucky gal married to an overgrown teen who I can beat at scaring with a plastic spider...lol.

You are in or you are out.

That determines your prognosis.

And either you're all the way in or all the way out.

You keep being up and down on here, imagine what your H must feel.

You've been here for over 6 years.

Z, what happened? It seemed you had turned a major corner and were making such GREAT progress....but your last few post's have been quite different. Hmmmmm...it seems to be a pattern?

Are you guys getting in the 20 hours of UA time every week? Are you guys meeting all 4 needs consistently? I just wonder because some weeks seem so good and others don't. I know you have mentioned you both work full time, he travels for work AND you have young children.

Hi all -

CWMI and BrainHurts - I appreciate your thoughts, and I'm not sure I agree. Steve hasn't ever told me that "I'm either in or I'm out, and this determines our prognosis," but I will certainly ask him. I don't think ambivalence is a flaw, it's a feeling, and he's actually advised me to be cautious at this point. Anyway, I appreciate your enthusiasm and will definitely include it when I talk to Steve.

And for the record, just because I go up and down on this forum doesn't mean I am doing this to my H - in fact, posting here helps me to be more measured in how I interact with him. The ADs help, too I've been doing what I need to do - I just get really discouraged when I don't see sustained progress on H's part. I'm scheduling our sessions, keeping things on the front burner, doing my checklist, sending the stuff Steve asks for. But these cycles wear me out.

TisMeAgain - You are right: this is a pattern. I keep seeing little jumps of progress, then it goes back to how it was. My H seems to be able to keep it going for a few days, then falls back into old habits. I don't have any LB$ reserve to keep a steady feeling of love for him - so when we have setbacks, the bank goes in the red. It's like having $5 bucks in your account - any little purchase pushes it over the edge.

Maybe other people with longer marriages and kids together have more 'rationale' to stay together. We've got none of this, so we need to be even more diligent about our LB$ balances, I guess.

TisMe: We don't spend 20 hours of UA time together. I actually asked Steve about this a few weeks ago and he said we'd probably do more harm than good at this point. I'll ask him again.

I didn't post last Friday's session on here, but it was kind of a doozy - several things were done and said by H that discouraged me greatly - glad Steve was there to help navigate it all.

Giving credit where credit is due: He made me coffee this morning, which was very nice. I looked in his eyes and thanked him sincerely, hugged and kissed his cheek.

We had dinner with some dear friends last night who know that we're struggling. They asked questions, listened & prayed with us. They were encouraging. It's good to have friends who know and love us both.