SC, well, I thought you were going to make me jealous / motivate by telling me how much more SF resulted, specifically. Of course results will vary, but I know increasing UA time certainly can't hurt!

To get a more precise figure, I really need to track if for a while, because honestly I don't know... The more important thing to do is the conversation tonight. I'll ask her for 1 hr UA time after DD goes to bed. Right away that'll probably make her wonder what's up, and it'd be hard for her to say "no".

Well, my point is that if you did sit and think about just last week, you would probably be shocked. You would probably find that it is much less than 10 hours per week. I don't think parents of young children realise how little time they give each other.

If you don't want to waste time tracking last week's activities, sit with your wife and plan this week's, Monday to Sunday evening. Once you put your 15 hours down first, you will see how hard it is to do a full time job, spend 15 hours' family time, and spend any time with friends. You might find that the kinds of wekend activities you described a few posts up will have to go, in favour of dates. As Dr Harley says, if you can't see your friends and family as much as you would like then so be it - but you must plan the 15 hours into your week first, before anything else.

First, I agree about the 15 hours.

But, I hope no-one believes that it's somehow a "magical figure" that is hard-wired, like the day having 24 hours. I can accept it as a statistical average, meaning some couples operate perfectly fine at 8 hours, and some really need 30 hours to be "fine". The idea of suggesting 15 is probably good because it might even be a high figure, but getting people to actually commit to and do that probably covers say up to the 80th percentile of what's generally needed. I would suspect the proof of effectiveness is whether both parties are feeling romantic love, and can convey that often through EN meeting and verbally. W and I need help in this, I believe - how big of a deal to make of it in discussion tonight? Pretty big, I think (as in, I'm making an official expression of concern for the health of the M - not saying it's "bad" but that we can "do better").

Try telling Dr Harley that! Oh no, IT is not an average, but a hard and fast number that Dr Harley came to after years of studying romantic marriages. It wasn't some number he pulled out of a hat. He actually tested his theory by giving his clients a test that measured the romantic love in the marriage. Go below the 15 hours per week and couples who are in love feel a difference that actually shows on his tests. Go above, and they test in love. Consistently go below 15, and the couple falls out of love.

So, you should believe it when he says it is 15 hours. He is not kidding. When he was in private practice he refused any clients who would not commit 15 per hours per week to his program because he said his program will not work without it.

You need 15 hours to maintain and 25-30+ hours to create. In other words, Dr Harley claims his program won't work without this time.

here

You don't understand Dr Harley if you believe that. Dr Harley already cut out all the fluff in his program. He has a precision, engineers mind. The corner cutting is already done. It is streamlined for effectiveness and doesn't work without all the steps in place.

Don't make the mistake of assuming you can cut corners and gain anything from this program. I have tried! You learn that the corners have already been cut and the program doesn't work unless it is used in its entirety.

The biggest mistake that folks make with this program is they drag a reluctant spouse into it and then do it halfway. When it is done halfway, there is very little improvement and the couple quickly becomes discouraged. With a reluctant spouse, there is often only one shot so that one shot is squandered.

Hi, Feenix,
There are a couple of things about your post that I want to comment on, but I'll start with this:

In any case, it is inconsiderate for two people to speak a foreign language when another person in the party does not speak that language. So, from the outset, they were at least very rude for having done so.

Next, your gut is sending up distress signals. Listen to it. You need to eliminate this guy from your circle. NOW.

If you do the online programme, you'll soon learn that 15 hours means 15 hours at the minimum, every single week, and no cutting corners. There is no averaging and no deciding for yourself that 8 hours or 10 hours is fine. You have to account for 15 hours on paper, and describe what you did during that time, and then report back to your coach. When Dr Harley says 15 hours per week he means it.

You're showing traits from the way Dr Harley's advice was interpreted when you posted here before. Essentially, from what I have read, "interpreted" meant that people did whatever they pleased, and were advised to do as much or as little as they were comfortably with, and still called it MB. You are trying to say that your common sense can work - but you and most people here used their common sense to drive their marriages into the ditch.

If your 10 hours per week were 1. really 10 hours and 2. working well then you would not feel the disconnect (or however you want to express it) from your wife.

Your "common sense" and "interpretation" has got you to a place where your marriage isn't as good as you'd like it to be. I'd say that it's time to put down the "common sense" and go back to basics, learning MB properly from scratch, along with your wife, and using it daily. I say this kindly with the best intent for your marriage.

Babysitting doesn't have to be Grandma's domain. Get the word out that you're looking for a babysitter for two-three nights a week. There are probably plenty of high school girls who would love to babysit and make money. Interview them, make sure they're level-headed, etc., and enlist them to babysit. This should not be a respectful request. This should be the foundation of your marriage. Don't allow initial resistance to siderail this. Absolutely. How smart of you to understand this!

Well Feenix, people ARE different. But those differences are already accounted for in the plan. For example, if you spent 15 hours meeting a persons need for IC, when it's not one of their top needs, you'd have wasted 15 hours. And if you were that person who has just spent 15 hours being talked at, you'd conclude the The Policy of Undivided Attention was a waste of time!

Before you moved in together, and had a little one, you must have gotten together at least four times a week, and those sessions together probably lasted at least four hours - thats why her SF need was higher.

True needs dont move or change. If her need used to be higher then, it was because her true needs, needs which are higher than SF for her were being met effortlessly within the past five years. Someone with a high SF needs always has a high SF need, regardless of how tired, or busy etc. Someone with a lower SF need, needs other things first.

Some needs require more time than others. For example, conversation and affection take more time than SF. Many women see being given time - and time planned out thoughtfully in the form of dates - as the most important gesture of affection, too. This is why the needs are "a minimum of 15" quoting Dr Harley. Because between both parties, the combined needs which require meeting for both people will always add up to 15 - if not more.

It's worth keeping in mind, that because you are shorter on time, you have probably cut back on needs meeting like your wife has. She's cut back on SF, what are you doing less of? What do you mnot see as importnat that she probably does?

One answer leaped out at me. Your wife "likes dates" but you hadnt got a single date planned for the weekend you described. Most women dont want to just 'hang out' particularly with their child. They see it as thoughtless when time is isnt planned out properly. When it is, they receive affection.

Feenix,

I hope I can offer you some practical advice and ease some of your worries.

Your wife sounds a lot like my current Fiance; educated, well-read, traveled, full of life's experiences, and highly spiritual. She loves conversation and I've seen her engaged with family members, colleagues, and friends of both genders on a level that I cannot keep up with at times.

Your wife sounds very similar. In fact, the car trip should scream to you that conversation is one of her very top emotional needs, and that seems to frighten you. It shouldn't.

My fiance and I spend far more that 15 hours a week of undivided attention, much of it in conversation. Our conversation might not be as deep spiritually as some she has with other equally spiritual friends, or might not be as intellectual as with someone who has had similar travels or reading background. But, we talk from the heart and understand each other better than anyone else possibly could. She says that she is more natural, comfortable, and at peace with me than with anyone she's ever spent time with.

You can do that too, and I suspect you do it much better than you think. You are the one she fell in love with and married, after all.

You are right in that shutting down on the car ride home was the worst thing you could do. You should have participated equally in the conversation, listen intently to both your F and W. Ask questions if they are talking about something unfamiliar to you. Ask them to repeat the joke in German. You don't have to know the subject as well as they do, just stay engaged and no one will judge or compare you to him.

The cheese for the hamburgers sounds very familiar, too! My Fiance has very high standard for many things...music, art, wine, and FOOD. If she voiced her displeasure with a straight delivery at not having cheese, then she was obviously disappointed in not having it. Doesn't mean she was blaming you or that you were inadequate, she was just disappointed and has every right to express it. You should hear my Fiance after a mediocre meal at a restaurant, but I've learned that it is not directed at me.

One last thing that might not jive directly with MB's, but it is undoubtedly true. Showing insecurities about your friend is NOT attractive to any woman. Take pride in yourself, have the attitude and body language that you are every bit the man that he is. That kind of confidence IS attractive.

UA time should be the foundation of the marriage, because the marriage cannot recover and cannot thrive without it. The issue should be on the front burner and should be the number one issue to resolve. He should bring it up frequently and persistently.

But I think it should still be a thoughtful request. A wife in withdrawal is not going to want to participate in UA time, and demands are not a safe tool for fixing that problem. Demands are only likely to make the problem worse. Invite her thoughtfully, respectfully persuade her, but don't reach into the locked closet full of Love Busters, or she may never come out of Withdrawal.

You've got to make this happen, Feenix. Quit picking and choosing the principles, and plan some fun time with your wife!

Feenix,

As a mother (and a young one at that), I simply CANNOT give undivided attention to my husband when our children are around. As a father, you may not realize this as much, but every whimper, cry, pout, sound that our children make instantly grabs our attention, this is a biological reaction. Notice how dad has a much easier time waiting to pick up a crying infant than mom. Same for shopping, taking him in & out of the car, paying attention when at a park, etc. It's usually mom who is deferred to this task.

Mothers cannot tune out our children to give UA time. A lot of men, including my own H, think it can be done. It can't. I say this to stress to you how critical TRUE UA time is. Your wife has been not focusing on you enough, it's time to accept a new path.

A bit of an update...

The last two nights, W and I have been having LONG conversations - perhaps a good start on UA time. An example was last night, we started talking as DD was going to sleep, kept going till we made it into bed a couple of hours later. Some of the talking has been W talking about work stresses, stresses with friends, etc. - so non-relationship stuff, but I'm glad to listen and contribute. I've been trying to inject a bit of the relationship talk - but in doses here and there, and W has been generally positive about it. For example she readily agreed we should get DD into 5-day-a-week daycare (currently 2 days). Right now on those 2 days, her commute is so much better, and one of her complaints in general (i.e. not me/M) is she's so tired from the commuting and her job. We've been talking now about her finding a new job, even, closer to home.

I've been gently (I hope!) making a few points. One is that I was a bit saddened she was keeping some of this from me - I figured we were tighter than that. Her response was along the lines of "but I don't want to burden you, either" - and I kept on the path of encouraging communication. Let's just say it's VERY clear that she was relishing the conversation time. It's OBVIOUS it's probably her top EN.

When I brought up how I was concerned about the slowing of SF, she once again acknowledged she wasn't doing a good job (we've had that coverstation before, months ago). She mentioned how she's not feeling very sexy right now as one reason, and how she feels "different down there" since the baby, etc. I spent time trying to build her up on the sexiness front. I didn't think of the reply till now on the other aspect, but I still feel like there's more to this issue because 10-ish days ago when she finished reading "50 Shades" (yes, like many other women she was totally into it!), we had some **GREAT** SF Tonight I'd like to gently make the point that I still wonder about the mental/emotional component since we know great SF is *possible* and try to talk more about that. I will acknowledge that I *know* SF will pick up if we get her top EN met better, get her more rest, get us more UA time, so - I wonder if I need to say anything more on it. It's on my mind, so I guess the answer is "yes".

Something interesting came up as well from W... I think after seeing me expressing my needs of her, she stepped up and said something to the effect that she wishes I'd have more to say in our conversations sometimes - that she was looking for more than one word replies many times. (Can you believe that given how wordy I am?!) What a great bit of information - clearly this is something that also shows she's probably been holding that back for who knows how long... makes me shudder, because that was really the death of 1st M. I seriously thanked her, told her I was glad she felt safe enough to say that... And we kept on talking...

Something else I'm going to suggest is that we read HNHN again (assuming I can get her to do that before reading "50 Shades" again!!). I had her read HNHN before we got married. But, it's easy to get comfortable and slip into common bad patterns. I agree that we MUST get working on changes ASAP. The good news is she seems on-board, and I sincerely don't believe she's in an A or is considering one. Weird that I might have to thank F for waking me up a bit - but I'm still kind of hating him at the moment, not as much for trying to make himself look so great (he does have a lot going for him), but in the very subtle jabs at me during the drive that I only really realize were there in hindsight (a technique pick-up artists are known to use - "demonstrating low value" of your competition) - that's just not cool with someone you claim is a friend... no friend of mine, but I really don't see a need to spend any further energy on him or that situation... the more pressing thing is to get M back in line with what both W and I want.

On those lines, W was saying "I want to go away more, let's go to Vegas! I want to dance! I want to dance with YOU." Among other things that are all about clues to what she needs.

I've got a feeling we'll be talking into the night again tonight.

In terms of the 15 hours thing - I did say I agreed with it, in principle. Why is it 15 hours and not 16.2295? Because it's an estimation by Harley from experience, not from magic or biochemistry. Re-reading the article, he does describe it as a "minimum" which is clear enough.

Repsonding to some specifics:


Yes, which is why I'm not pushing for SF right now, either. I'm happy to see her animated and excited while talking because it shows she's re-engaging. Also including affection in the mix as well (both me->her, her->me).


It's becoming more obvious, and I have more things I'd like to talk about, so I'm planning on getting to bed late again tonight.


Planning those has generally been either her or joint - which I realize I need to do better with. In fact, I'm happy with doing a lot of planning (as I did with this last trip as an example). The lack of planning anything for the weekend definitely doesn't mean the time would be empty - we both remembered a second event we need to go to on Sunday now for example. It's actually fairly rare to not have a fully booked calendar so when we do have down time, it's usually welcomed by her. BUT, we're on board with planning ahead for UA time, I believe. I think she's slightly less on board, really, because she assumed DD would stay overnight on the weekends once a month - I'm thinking once a week! I'm hoping that with the increase in our conversation time lately, she's getting a taste for this UA concept and it'll get easier to figure out (quickly, I hope).


... and verified by my experience after the trip now too! The scary part isn't so bad when we're one-on-one - I enjoy talking up a storm with her. In some social settings, I struggle a bit more, perhaps. Not sure why, but if you look at my demeanor when W and I first met, I had a lot of self-confidence. I still have it, but there's a lot of layers of dust on it, I think, and I need to get back in touch with MYSELF a lot more too. That's the me that W was super-attracted to in the very beginning.


That's consistent with my own life experiences prior to dating W - I met / dated quite a few girls and also came to understand a lot of truisms like you describe. In fact, W "liked" (yes, sorry, FB) a quote by Dr. Ruth about the "50 Shades" book - how if she was much younger, not married, etc. she'd consider a night with the main character because he's clearly a guy who "knows women" (sounds like an alpha dude). I joked with her a bit about that and we were playfully shoving each other during our conversation time too, showing some nice attraction re-building (and getting my head back in the proper place).


Vegas, Baby! (well, actually without DD!)


Right, and she knows it.

You need to read HNHN For Parents. It is a specific edition for people in your situation.

ok, I skimmed through that very long post and didn't see where you scheduled your 15 hours per week? Has that been done? Keep in mind the program doesn't work without that step, so all this stuff will be a collosal waste of your time if you skip that part.

I am glad you had a nice talk last night, but that is not a replacement for an action plan to achieve your 15 hours of UA time.

You can argue all you want about whether it is 15 hours or 16.2295, but those of us who are in romantic, integrated, fulfilling marriages will tell you the same thing: it takes at least 15 hours to maintain the romantic love in a marriage. Not 8, not 12, but 15. It is not a "magic" number, it is the number of hours required to maintain romantic love.

If you want this to work, I would order the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love, tear out the UA worksheet in the back and make copies. Then sit down together every Sunday and schedule out your time. Line up babysitters, etc. It is harder to put off time that is scheduled.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I have heard Dr. Harley refer to 15 hours as the "magic" number!

Here.
The Policy of Undivided Attention

And if you havent been meeting it, i.e. conversation isnt going deep enough because DD is in the room, then you won't know enough about her to give her really good conversation for a while. You'll be rusty in the beginning. The conversations you've been having are good, but they're wedged in after bedtimes. I think Dr H also sets a time limit of UA taking place before 11pm because we're not at our best after that time.

Get those dates scheduled now! She needs to be alert, out of the house, relaxed and confiding the deepest secrets of her soul to you. I know that would make me happy!

Oh and BTW, radical honesty doenst come very naturally to her... good job on encouraging her and making it safe for her to talk. Is it one of your high needs? Even if it isnt, its a commonsense thing to have.

I would fill out the EN questionaire together. It would inspire lots of IC for your wife, and would also count as UA time.



The UA time needs to go in before any plans for your wider circle. You are each other's first priority. Plus while I appreciate you're a good guy and probably good company, and that the time would not be 'empty' - not planning stuff is lazy.

If you had showed up for dates with your wife without a plan, you wouldnt have gotten her in the first place. Most women see a man having a plan to show them a good time as highly affectionate. Particularly if they have listened to the stuff they like to do and acted on their wishes accordingly. It's like a well chosen gift. Most women feel guilty 'expecting' this, particularly after children arrive, but prettyy much all expect it in the beginning. I would say most women do want that. I'd recommend suggesting dates to her, to show you're wide awake to what may make her happy, and take on her suggestions and tweaks.

I've actually heard him use the word "magic."