Thanks for your thoughts, especially your 2nd post about cooling off and discussing. When my GF and I go through one of those rough spots, I appreciate her persistence in not letting things get pushed under the rug, which is what my tendency is. I don't always appreciate it at the time, but later, when things get resolved and feelings restored, I realize it was her effort that got us back on track. I wish I was better at that.

Hearing your story (ie, hearing it from someone else) helps, thanks!

That's exactly what Dr. Harley says to do:



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

As a result of practicing this, CWMI's marriage is clearly looking much better these days than it did in years past!!!

[quote=KeepLearningThanks wannabophim, that's a good example of POJA. It brings up a question I've wondered about that involves the idea of "enthusiasm that changes over time." Borrowing from your example of the wife who gets a job offer in Paris, suppose the husband IS able to find a job there and they enthusiastically agree to move. A year later however, suppose the husband finds he hates living in Paris and wants to move back. He's no longer enthusiastic about their decision to move to Paris. Is he bound by that decision nonetheless? Or does his loss of enthusiasm nullify the original agreement. Or same thing with the wife: suppose after a year she hates her job and wants to move back, but her husband now loves Paris. What do they do? [/quote]

First they should reevaluate the decsion and see if they can find away for him to be enthusisastic about living in Paris. Why doesn't he like it? Can they address that issue? But if he were continueing to be completely miserable then perhaps mvoing back would be the solution. Clearly in this case he needs to be given more chocolate croissants and cafe au lait. ;-)

Dr. Harley in his wife only moved to MN from CA under the agreement that if she hated it, they would move back to CA. An agreement like that before moving would handle the problem you raise.

No one is ever bound to a decision. Enthusiasm may be lost at any time, and your spouse has the right to change his or her mind.

Hi BrainHurts, I finally tried a different computer on the audio clip you posted and it worked! Thank you, it was nice to hear an explanation of POJA and the fact that there are exceptions to the principle, as I suppose there are to other principles as well.

I sent my GF a link to the MB website, and she's impressed with the breadth of material and wants to go through some it with me, so that's good!

We've probably been practicing some form of POJA without realizing it (ie, trying to come to a joint agreement on some issue), but we haven't employed the concept of "enthusiatic agreement." So far it's been "this time we'll do what you want, next time we'll do what I want." If my understanding of POJA is correct, it should be "this time we'll do what we both want, and every time we'll do what we both want."

I can't hear this clip right now, so could you please tell me what exceptions Dr Harley mentioned?

I just listened to it, Sugar, and the exception to POJA mentioned was matters of health and safety--Dr. Harley said that if one was sick and their spouse didn't agree to them seeing a doctor because they couldn't afford it, the sick spouse should go anyway,

Thanks, CWMI.

I asked because I know that there are no exceptions to this principle in any normal circumstances, and I thought that the circumstances Dr Harley suggested would have to be extreme or exceptional, which it seems was the case.

Original poster: I would not want you to think that exceptions are whatever we want to define for ourselves. It seemed like an odd thing for you to focus on the exceptions in your first post after listening to the clip. That there are exceptions should not be what you walk away with.

Please do not start this programme with the idea that it is okay to find exceptions to the principles. It is not. Exceptions should be exceptional - i.e. rare or non-existent. If you cut corners you are not using the Marriage Builders programme.

Hi SugarCane, in the context of my first post after listening to the radio clip, I can see how one could think I focused on the fact that there are exceptions to the POJA. I should've broadened the context. I've been interested in several threads describing situations where couples are trying to understand things such as UA and the POJA. For instance, one spouse claims an activity is UA and the other says it's not; or one thinks POJA means giving something up and the other doesn't. Not all situations are easy to decide, and it's interesting (to me) to understand the situations from both spouse's perspectives (although usually in these threads we only receive the perspective of the posting spouse).

I want to avoid the trap of following the principles religiously to the letter. Before hearing Dr. Harley say there are exceptions (the health issue was an example), I was under the assumption that there weren't any. I see now however that you have to use common sense in exceptional situations. I'm reminded of an earlier post in this thread from markos, and I think blindly following the POJA to the letter can contribute to this:

Personally, I have no experience in using the POJA, but I'm very interested in learning about it from others, and I'd like to avoid the situation described by markos. I want to try the POJA with my GF, but before we do, I want to understand it better, know how to use it and how to avoid using it improperly, and be in agreement with her about its intent.

Actually, what markos is describing there is people who think they are using the POJA, but ARE NOT. They are using "POJA" to force a demand, rather than making a joint agreement that takes both spouses feelings into account.

That situation is not caused by blindly following the POJA, but rather, NOT following it.

Prisca is exactly right. We had several of these situations crop up in our marriage, particularly during the first year or so of Marriage Builders. In every case, Dr. Harley explained that the Policy of Joint Agreement refers to whether you are enthusiastic right NOW, not whether you were enthusiastic at some point in the past. The example he gave me on the radio was when Joyce went with him to a baseball game then once they were there decided she hated it and wanted to leave!

Insisting your husband or wife keep an agreement they made but are no longer enthusiastic about is not "blindingly following the POJA to the letter." It's a violation of the POJA, because it is forcing your spouse to do something they are not enthusiastic about.

That's rarely a problem. The principles are good principles, and they build good marriages. The exceptions are few and well-described by Dr. Harley.

The real trap to avoid is demanding anything of your spouse.

Exactly.

Dr. Harley was not describing a few sample exceptions. He was describing the only exceptions. And I wasn't describing an exception at all; I was describing someone who is totally confused about the principles calling something "POJA" that isn't.

That's exactly why I'm here, to make sure I'm not confused. I want to get it right.

One thing that does muddy the waters for me is how to use MB principles in the context of a dating relationship. (In fact I'm not sure whether I should be posting here or in the Dating and Relationships forum.) In a marriage, assuming you're both buyers and subscribers to MB principles, there is no option other than to follow MB principles; if you have a hard time following a principle, you work on it. In a dating relationship, however, it's more likely that one or both partners are renters, and there is the option of deciding the relationhip is not right if you have trouble with some of the principles.

My context (dating, not married) qualifies me as a novice, and I appreciate the advice of the married posters here. Thanks!

Stay on this forum. There's not many people on the Dating and Relationships forum, and you won't get much help.

I applaud you for wanting to learn the principles before you are married. I wish I had, and I intend for my children to. But you are right that it is not the same for a dating relationship. In a dating relationship, you are both still free agents and can leave the relationship any time you want.

You can practice the principles while dating, but it will not be the same than when you're married.

KL, you are exactly right on the differences between dating and marriage. You can try the MB methods and see how you like them. You can get an idea of the benefit. But until you say "I do," neither one of you has committed to care for and protect each other "for life," and when that commitment has been made, it does change things in unexpected ways.

It is still good to prepare. Dr. Harley says you get a lot more mileage out of seeing if both of you are willing to follow the policy of joint agreement than any other "compatibility test" out there.

By the way, did anyone recommend the book "I Promise You" for you? It's for engaged couples.

The intent of poja is simple: avoid being the source of your spouse's unhappiness. The easiest way to avoid a situation like markos described is to not make agreements that you are unsure about, and to put off agreements if you sense any reluctance in your spouse.

It is tough to get the hang of. There are negotiations along the way about what needs to be poja'd. Dr. Harley describes it as 'never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse' but that does not mean you need to continuously check with your spouse on all things--i.e. if your spouse was okay with you, say, buying lunch at Burger King, you can pretty much rest assured that it will be okay to do that again tomorrow and repeatedly unless he/she complains about your whopper habit and asks you to stop.

KL, I like your thread. Thanks for inspiring a good discussion --I'm learning a lot and I don't consider myself a novice anymore after 3 years of MB living.

@Markos, my fiance and I are reading "I Promise You" now. I second the recommendation to our friend KL.

I too applaud you for going down the marriage path with eyes open and armed with the best information/learning you can avail yourself to. Many of us here wish we had known of MB/Dr. Harley long ago.

I have an email in to Dr. H and Joyce (sent this am) which addresses some of your concerns; you and I share some of the same thoughts. I will post the letter on my thread (the one in Dating and Relationships- you posted there to me) and any correspondeces from the Harleys.

opt

Yes, BrainHurts did way back at the beginning. I checked out some reviews, and it looks like a winner. Thanks markos, BrainHurts, and anyone else that recommended it!

I hope I'm not over-analyzing this thing to death, but I'd like to hear thoughts on the following scenario.

Suppose one of a married couple is an introvert and the other is an extrovert. For the sake of example, let's say the H is the introvert and the W is the extrovert. At the end of the week, the H wants to come home from work, kick off his shoes and relax with a glass of wine and watch TV with his W; as an introvert, he needs some peace and quiet to recharge his batteries. The W wants to meet her H at a restaurant with some mutual friends for dinner; as an extrovert, she needs social interaction to recharge her batteries.

From the W's point of view, her H is not enthusiastic about going out to dinner, so she should agree to stay home. From the H's point of view, his W is not enthusiastic about staying home, so he should agree to go out. If they don't both enthusiastically agree to either stay home or go out, I guess the default is to do nothing, which means they stay at home? Or maybe they try to negotiate the agreement, but it takes too long and the time for meeting for dinner passes, and they end up at home? In either case, the H got what he wanted but the W was not enthusiastic about it. How do they reach an enthusiastic agreement about what to do Friday evening after work?