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If your husband has changed so much, then why are your emotions still so fresh as this:

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The biggest issues right now are my inability to stop triggering and having bad dreams constantly. I saw our counselor this week and I also made an appointment to get on ADs for next week. I know that in time this is supposed to get better and better but it has become nearly paralyzing to me. We have been following the policy of not bringing up the affair but the change in my mood at times is very noticeable.


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I have no objection to speaking with the Harleys. I do think my counselor is good, I think Dr. Harley would too since he follows his principles. I guess I wanted the board for the same reason as everyone else here... just that place to go when you need/want to talk or give/receive support. Counseling whether with the Harleys or not is a set amount of time on a set schedule and clearly from the volume on this board there is often more conversation to be had.

I did not mean to give the impression that I expected anyone here to fix my problems. Obviously I must have but that wasn't my intention! I was just looking for some friendly give and take and a safe place to talk with people who might understand.

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I see. This board is not intended to be a place to go to and talk. It is a place to receive help in MB principles.

So, are you going to contact Dr. Harley?


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Originally Posted by Prisca
I highly doubt your marriage will survive if you do not contact Dr. Harley and get his help. It is one of the steps that I believe you, being in an affairage, MUST take.

I have had marriage counselors who said that they were "on board" with MB, too. They really weren't, though.

It's risky for a marriage to trust a counselor. But you can't afford that risk.

I see your point here and I will give it some consideration. I have to admit my initial thought is that I can't see the value of starting over when the steps that Dr. Harley instructs couples to take (based on the books and this website) are the same ones we were instructed to take.

As for why I am having such a hard time getting past triggers, I don't know. I am still sorting that out. My counselor thinks that it may be roots of bitterness because I have not yet forgiven the people involved in the affairs with the exception of my husband. We are working on forgiveness, for my own spiritual health and growth. (And no forgiveness does not mean the same as reconciliation, this is between me and God.)I am struggling with it although I know i have to forgive.

It has also started creeping into my mind today as I have been posting and trying to study up some more on the forgiveness topic if my own guilt isn't playing a role in my torment. Maybe I am not able to let it go because somehow I think I deserve it because of my past? I don't know. Or maybe God is impressing on me the hypocrisy of my hard heartedness when I needed such forgiveness myself? A lot swirling in my mind right now.

I am going to seriously think about some phone sessions with Dr. Harley though. I don't suppose it could hurt.

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Originally Posted by Prisca
I see. This board is not intended to be a place to go to and talk. It is a place to receive help in MB principles.

Okay. Please excuse me then, my bad. I genuinely thought it was a place for all of the above as long as advice was in accordance with MB.

Thank you for the time you gave.
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Originally Posted by NewCreation2012
As for why I am having such a hard time getting past triggers, I don't know. I am still sorting that out. My counselor thinks that it may be roots of bitterness because I have not yet forgiven the people involved in the affairs with the exception of my husband.

That doesn't sound like what Dr. Harley would recommend.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by NewCreation2012
As for why I am having such a hard time getting past triggers, I don't know. I am still sorting that out. My counselor thinks that it may be roots of bitterness because I have not yet forgiven the people involved in the affairs with the exception of my husband.

That doesn't sound like what Dr. Harley would recommend.

Not at ALL. As I suspected, your counselor is throwing in his or her own ideas on top of Dr. Harley's.

When you are ready to call Dr. Harley, let me know. I'll listen.


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Markos, we are already spending all our time together, have transparency, extraordinary precautions, have minimized lovebusters by a ton, we recently re-did our EN worksheets, maybe I am missing something? This just feels like an inside of me problem right now as we are doing all the other stuff.

I guess it is possible there are some additional, different steps that Dr. Harley would have a couple who started as an affair take? I suppose that is one angle I hadn't considered when your wife suggested calling him.

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Originally Posted by NewCreation2012
Markos, we are already spending all our time together, have transparency, extraordinary precautions, have minimized lovebusters by a ton, we recently re-did our EN worksheets, maybe I am missing something? This just feels like an inside of me problem right now as we are doing all the other stuff.

I guess it is possible there are some additional, different steps that Dr. Harley would have a couple who started as an affair take? I suppose that is one angle I hadn't considered when your wife suggested calling him.

NC12


Were any of the OW that your WH had affairs married?

Was his affair exposed?


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by NewCreation2012
Confession... I also signed up under the username Aerie several months ago. I posted for a bit in the Recovery forum and although I described my situation at the time accurately I left out my historical detail.

Well, my only comment is to express disappointment in myself.
I was starting to feel respect for you. I guess I'm not as astute as I hoped to be.

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Over the years, I have often thought about how horrible it would be if my XH's OW came to this forum asking for help in propping up her affair with my XH. My greatest fear has always been that I would have to sit by and watch my fellow board members help her. I can't imagine anything more galling. I would leave the board rather than watch this. And others have left the board for this very reason. [the Justjilly debacle comes to mind]

It is because of this that I have chosen not to assist those in affair marriages. I care too much about their victims to spend my time on such relationships. That option was taken away from me when you posted under another alias, Aerie. If I had known it was an affair marriage, I would not have posted.

I didn't appreciate being tricked.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by NewCreation2012
Confession... I also signed up under the username Aerie several months ago. I posted for a bit in the Recovery forum and although I described my situation at the time accurately I left out my historical detail.

NC, your getting help on these boards was discussed in your first thread.

Here:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2480055&page=23
Originally Posted by MarriedForever
NC ~ PLEASE have the courtesy of NOT asking for help on these boards. There are far too many in terrible pain right now from a spouse's affair...this would be ridiculously cruel.

If you want help from MB, please do it in private, from the Harley's. I am sincerely asking you do not do this on these boards. You will not get the help you need on these boards, trust me.

Originally Posted by NewCreation2011
Just to be clear, I do not plan to ask for help on restoring this marriage on these boards. We do have Harley's books, and a counselor who is on board with Harley's philosophy's. I will call the Harleys direct if needed. I think it would be disrepectful and too hurtful to BWs and BHs to expect help actually on these boards.

and here:

Originally Posted by MarriedForever
Exactly. It triggers lots of people and many here feel incredibly disrespected that an affairage like the one that's ripped their life apart, is getting help.

It's truly disrespectful and cruel.

Originally Posted by NewCreation2011
I just want to be clear one more time...

I WILL NOT ASK FOR HELP FOR MY MARRIAGE ON THESE BOARDS.

If I post it will only be about my continuing efforts towards growing in Christ and warning others about what adultery causes. I may update on my sitch with the BW if an update happens, and I will gladly answer any questions asked of me. But... I WILL NOT ask for marriage advice here. I do understand why and how that would be offensive.

So you come back and lie to us? Do you understand how sensitive BSs are to being deceived in addition to the issues discussed above?

I just can't believe it...


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Here's her Aerie thread.
Aerie's Thread Delayed Anger-Help


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Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Originally Posted by NewCreation2012
Yes, my husband and I are both on board with MB. We also have a Christian counselor who is onboard with MB.

I understand the concern about hurting any further the BS that post here. That is why I chose Other Topics for this thread. If Dr. Harley wishes me not to post here I would certainly respect that.

I said in the past I would not seek help for my marriage here but I admit I wish I could. Maybe just a thread to bounce occasional thoughts off of others who believe the principles we are trying to follow? I guess that is help, I don't know. I lurk a lot and I often see things that I wish I could comment on or seek further insight on and feel I can't. Is that too much to ask? I don't mean that smart, I struggle with doing what is right.

NC12
Dr. Harley has said that he has had very little success in helping people who are in an affairage. He has never excluded those people - he's just had very little success with them. Have you considered signing up for the online course?

Last edited by maritalbliss; 06/08/12 09:59 PM.

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Aerie/NewCreation,

One of the best things I've gotten out of being here on Marriage Builders (aside from an improved marriage) has been an improved character.

Do you see how hard it has been for you to give up lying? You posted last year about the consequences of your past misdeeds, and received lots of praise for acknowledging your mistake. Yet when you saw something you felt you could not get without lying, you went right on and did it. And apparently your very posting here is breaking promises that you made on this board.

There's therapies and counselors out there who can keep you going for years on "working on" lying, breaking promises, and other character issues, but the only effective therapy I've ever seen in my life is the people on this board here saying KNOCK IT OFF! And let me tell you, they have told me to knock it off when it comes to my character flaws more than once, and more than you see on this board (I know a few of these fine folks off of this board, and let me tell you they shoot straight with me and are happy to bluntly straighten me out when needed, and I've grown to appreciate it).

I just think that would be great if that would be one thing you get out of what you've done here. KNOCK IT OFF. Quit lying. Quit making promises that you do not keep. If you want to really live up to the name "New Creation," then live like one.

That's hard stuff to hear. Most people run away from anything even resembling that. And I don't tell everyone I know stuff like this and confront everyone with their character flaws, but here at Marriage Builders, where I assume people post because they are looking for help, I want to offer what help I can and pass along what I have received.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by NewCreation2012
Originally Posted by Prisca
I see. This board is not intended to be a place to go to and talk. It is a place to receive help in MB principles.

Okay. Please excuse me then, my bad. I genuinely thought it was a place for all of the above as long as advice was in accordance with MB.

Thank you for the time you gave.
NC12

Aerie/NewCreation, as you have already mentioned, this board is really different from those other boards. I think you can see that there's something different here that isn't available elsewhere. I think a lot of people see that.

One of the differences is this: we realize on this board that simply talking about problems does not solve them. A lot of people, and a lot of therapists, have the idea that what people really need in their problems is "support." i.e., they need someone to talk to, someone to help encourage them, someone to help them cope and deal with and accept all the bad things that are happening. This may take the form of friends, this may take the form of therapists. It's no accident that often it takes the form of affairs, as a man and woman "supporting" each other through this type of intimate conversation will fall in love!

The Marriage Builders forum is different, and the main motivation for that is Dr. Harley himself. He appears to be in the minority among therapists and in the minority among psychologists, but his methods do work, and his directions often center around getting people to stop talking and start changing their behavior.

I don't know if your counselor is really in line with Dr. Harley or not, but if he/she takes a "talk about it" approach rather than a "make a plan to fix it, and I'll coach/motivate you through the plan" approach, then that's probably not really in line with Dr. Harley.

I say all that for the benefit of everyone reading and posting here. The Marriage Builders approach is different, and the Marriage Builders forum is different, but the differences result in it working, at least for those who follow the plan.

So we do a great service to our fellow posters here when we encourage them to get moving on doing something productive about their problems. Often the most productive thing we can do is suggest that they contact Dr. Harley directly. Several have suggested that to you here on this thread, and since as you know the odds are extremely stacked against you, it makes help to get the absolute best help possible. And getting in touch with Dr. Harley is doing something, not just talking.

Take note that the phone coaches from Marriage Builders are Dr. Harley's children, Steve Harley and Dr. Jennifer Chalmers. They are excellent and they use Marriage Builders. But if you want to talk to Dr. Harley directly, you'll have to do that either through the paid online program (highly recommended) or his radio show.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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Originally Posted by NewCreation2012
Markos, we are already spending all our time together, have transparency, extraordinary precautions, have minimized lovebusters by a ton, we recently re-did our EN worksheets, maybe I am missing something? This just feels like an inside of me problem right now as we are doing all the other stuff.

I guess it is possible there are some additional, different steps that Dr. Harley would have a couple who started as an affair take? I suppose that is one angle I hadn't considered when your wife suggested calling him.

NC12

If you will reread my post, you will find that what I was talking about wasn't any of that stuff.

Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by NewCreation2012
As for why I am having such a hard time getting past triggers, I don't know. I am still sorting that out. My counselor thinks that it may be roots of bitterness because I have not yet forgiven the people involved in the affairs with the exception of my husband.

That doesn't sound like what Dr. Harley would recommend.

I am talking about what your counselor is recommending regarding forgiveness. That is so diametrically the opposite of what Dr. Harley would recommend. He would never say that your triggers are caused by not forgiving people. He would say that they are caused by circumstances in your environment that remind you of the traumatic events. He would suggest practical steps to identify and eliminate those triggers in your environment, such as moving to a completely new city.

And as for forgiveness, Dr. Harley advises against forgiving those who have not repented. As for the other people involved in the affairs, Dr. Harley would advise you not to ever contact them again, to get rid of anything which reminds you of them, not to talk about them again, and not to dwell on memories of them. Nothing in there about forgiveness. Just letting go and burying the problems of the past, because they can never be resolved in the present.

In fact, that's something he talks about frequently. Counseling and therapy that tries to resolve issues of the past is doomed to fail (unless you are the therapist and counting perpetual therapy checks as success!) because you can never resolve the problems of the past! All that does is bring past problems into the present and make it worse. Dr. Harley's approach is focused purely on the problems of the present.

So this aspect of your counselor that you mentioned sounds radically, radically different from Dr. Harley's approach. Maybe your counselor has His Needs, Her Needs and/or Dr. Harley's other books on his shelf, but it doesn't sound like he's from the same school of thought in psychology as Dr. Harley, or else just doesn't know as much about how Dr. Harley handles this.

By the way, if you want something productive you can DO, you can listen to Dr. Harley's radio show every day and listen to the archives of his show online and practically become an expert yourself in knowing how Dr. Harley addresses lots of different situations, including many which are not covered in any of his books or articles. Only takes an hour a day, or maybe two hours a day if you want to go through the archives, and it's free, and it's good practical help, and you can listen while you do something else, such as drive or work or exercise.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Aerie/NewCreation, I say all this not knowing if it will be helpful for you or not. Dr. Harley says he just hasn't had a lot of luck helping people in marriages that start as affairs because they are so entrenched in behaviors that cause bad marriages. You know that. The ease with which you reach for lying and breaking promises are good examples of that. I believe he says that if he could persuade people in those marriages to actually follow his methods, he believes they would have good marriages. But most of Dr. Harley's work is not giving advice or teaching his plans, it is motivating people to follow those plans, and he has found those who got married in an affair to be extremely hard to motivate to do these things.

But I say all of this for the benefit of the many people reading (I know that this thread has to have attracted tons of attention already, beyond just those who have posted), because it is a great chance to hit on so many useful pieces of information raised by the points you have brought up.

I close by suggesting you start acting and doing. Maximize your chances by getting in touch with the best marriage expert on the planet. And start living with high character. Tell the truth, even when it means doing without something that you want. Be considerate of other people. Keep your word. Make it mean something.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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Haha lol laugh

I still have big shoes to fill.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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