Have been struggling for some time in regards to my husbands constant lying and deception over money. Went to my counselor just today and she gave me some very good advice or at least something to ponder...

Hes either going to want to work things out or he isn't. Hes either going to keep lying and deceiving or he isn't. I can only work on myself, become the person im proud to see in the mirror.

She suggested that I be the person I want to be in the marriage and let him decide what it is that he wants.

I've been thru the material here and agree 100%. I just can't fight the battle for the both of us...

So? What are the deal breakers and when do you say enough is enough?

How long married? Any children? How did you meet him?

Never mind, I see I already posted to you. I think you should accept that your husband is not going to change and proceed from that point. You can't change him and despite being given numerous chances to change has refused to do so.

How do I proceed?

Diamond, at the end of the day, your deal breaker is an entirely individual things. Nobody else can tell you what your deal breakers are.

I've looked over your posts and I see that your H has had an EA. You abandoned your last thread without telling us whether you managed to discover this woman's identity and tell her husband. Also, you said that she was probably a mother in the school district that he works for. Unless he has given up that job or she has moved away, they must be able to contact each other easily, and thus it is likely that the affair is not over.

The financial issues are also potentially huge. Having read your thread, I think your H is in serious financial difficulties and owes a lot of money. You need to get to the bottom of this because you might well be liable for his debts.

You've only been married for just over two years, and these problems have been known to you for several months - and probably going on for longer. I think your H was hiding secrets when he married you.

File for divorce to protect your assets.

SugarCane,
I should have picked up where I left off with my last post...I'm
Just not thinking clearly. I never did find out who she was. I did have him send a message that he had made a terrible mistake. I really thought that was a wake up call for him...

He has since taken another job outside of the school...

I have just learned TODAY that he took out a cash advance. He had started the proceedings for bankruptcy a few months back and I was able to see his credit report.

I did not however foresee him doing what he has done.

I guess the question I am now asking is...how much more do I hang on? How much more should I take? Can I/we overcome this?

YOU can't overcome this. You can't force someone to change against his will. You have given him every opportunity to change and he has refused. If I were in your shoes, I would file for divorce and get legal protection before he ruins you financially. You have only been married for 2 short years and this marriage has been a disaster. He has the potential to cause enormous financial damage to you the longer you are with him. His dishonesty and his reckeless independent behavior has ruined your marriage.

I left out my Ipad this morning with this post open. I told him that I wanted him to read, not only my post, but also the replies that I received. I was hoping this was a "wake-up" call for him.

I also sent him a lengthy email this morning in regards to what I was expecting from our marriage and outlined the POJA and Radical Honesty. I ended with:

**My heart is heavy as I write this. I just need to know from you that you are willing to work on our marriage. That you understand how important the policies above are to me and how important they are to FOLLOW.**

His response back to me was:

**first and foremost, if i have 1/4 or even an 1/8th of a strike left for me to be the husband, friend, person i should be and that you married i will grab on to that and do whatever it takes to prove to you i can change. in the professional world, employees have attitudes and behaviors and i have always been a firm believer that it is very difficult to change someones attitude but one can change behavior by holding people accountable for their actions. in our case, accountability for me is heading very close to divorce, something i certainly dont want so again if i have any strikes left, no matter how small i will take full advantage of those.

you have been nothing but a best friend, supporter, wife, lover(great) to me and for that i owe you everything. you have taught me so much about my self over a very short period of time and again i appreciate that. i dont want to stop here, do i need to change my behavior, absolutely, you said it very well. do i need to make a committment for change, absolutely, you said that very well, will i.........given the chance i will and i understand it will take time.

this last thing happened while i was still stressed about my old job, about us from what transpired a couple months ago, are those excuses, sure they are but i do feel we are on the right track, i know i am, especially not having to deal with the stress of my old job, enjoying the days off not worrying about anything but us will be a wonderful change for me, youll see.

i love you with all my heart and always will, do i understand if you choose to listen to the marriage builders and move on with your life, i do, not what i want but i would certainly understand.


we jokingly say at times its not easy being me, it really isnt but i plan on changing, i dont like what i have done to you recently and count my blessings that i am still a part of your life.

to summarize everything......................................

think about the night light in our bedroom, 48 years from now i hope to turn the light on one last time before i close my eyes forever and say to you......"always kiss me goodnight"**



I'm very certain that I have made my point with him and that it's his choice on how he wants his life to play out...with or without me....

For now, I guess I have to just sit back and observe and see how he behaves...

We spoke on the phone today over lunch and will discuss some of the material I have printed off from this site tonight when I get home from work. Thank you for all your insight and suggestions...

Diamond, that's a lot of words from him, but very little about what he is going to do. He is saying things that try to control your feelings, like the comment about the night light and the kiss. Symbols of care, but the real care remains to be seen.


He doesn't get it, and he is saying here that he is not going to rise to the challenge.

(If he wants to rise to the challenge, tell him to post here!)


Not only is he making excuses, he is completely disclaiming responsibility for his actions. He is saying that his bad behavior happened before because of the circumstances he was in, and he's trying to persuade you that EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT SAYING ONE WORD ABOUT WHAT HE WILL CHANGE that you should trust him that things will be different, this time, simply because his circumstances have changed. He is claiming his decisions are 100% a product of his circumstances rather than his own choices.

You might check out Pepperband's brilliant post about locus of control.

You need him to become the kind of man who will treat you right even when circumstances are bad. Even when he is stressed, he will not take actions without making sure you are 100% enthusiastic. Even when he is stressed, he will put you first and carve out a sufficient chunk of time for you each week FIRST in his schedule, uncompromisable.

What he is saying is: "I won't change or lift a finger to change. Please just believe me that things will be better, so that you won't leave."

There's not a lot of need here to sit back and watch his behavior. He is telling you straight out he doesn't intend to change. I suppose he might jump up and surprise us all.

I posted the above, deleted it, then posted it again. Even though he says in the middle that he will change, it contradicts most of what he says in the rest of the letter. It sounds to me like he doesn't believe he should have to change, and is perfectly fine for you to let go of him if you aren't happy with that.

In my opinion, if you can't get immediate 100% access to all of his financial records and everything else in the world (all computers, cellphones, smartphones, email accounts, etc.) that he owns, I would not even try Marriage Builders with him. Either he opens up completely, or he is not worth it and is just going to snow you with flowery words.

He can change my mind if he will up and post here and do the work.

He has no plan. And he refers to Marriage Builders as "yours," meaning he's not adopting that as his plan, either.


Very vague and nonspecific about what he's done or what he's going to try to do to make amends for it. Not remorseful at all.

I don't really feel like I have any other option than to trust what he says, watch what he does and go from there. I don't want to go thru a divorce. If he's willing to work on our marriage and his actions, realizes the mistakes he's made, learns from them, doesn't repeat them...I have to give him the benefit to prove otherwise, right?

I do feel in his email to me that he recognizes the need for "change". And, that "change" is only going to happen with a lot of hard work on his part.

He knows I'm at the end of the line with all this. The ball is in his court as to how he wants to go about his "changing, fixing, and moving on and proving to me" his future actions. I guess it's now just a matter of time to see if he proves to me he is willing to work on himself and able to hold his end of the marriage together - incorporating POJA and Radical Honesty on his part as well.

I will ask him to post something and see what he says...

Well, I do think you should trust what he says. I think you should trust him when he says he will accept it if you leave. I think you should trust him when he says he blames his previous failures on his circumstances. And I think you should trust that he will continue to ask you to "trust" him based only on changes in circumstances, not on his behavior.

I would be happy to be proven wrong, of course! But you can't make him prove me wrong; only he can do that.


Does he realize the mistakes he's made? He doesn't even mention them in the letter.


He's not suggesting any hard work on his part at all, so far.


I think that will be too hard for him and he will make some excuse.

markos may be right.

The solution is to ask him what he's going to DO?

He's said much, ask him to spell out the specifics of how he will accomplish this. What is the standard for success, etc?

Words are cheap. (Don't say that to him.) So ask for his plan of concrete actions.

If he doesn't have one, then ask if you can help him make one.

He doesn't have to know it's MB when you help him into the plan.

You could also suggest that if he doesn't have one, that he can come here to put together a plan that works.

Ignore the excuses and vagueness. It means very little. It's behaviors and actions you want to see. If he doesn't know, or there is very little, there is help for him if he's willing to accept it.

I don't know how to put his words into quotes - but this is taken from his email:
**do i need to change my behavior, absolutely**

**do i need to make a committment for change, absolutely**

**, will i.........given the chance i will and i understand it will take time.**

**i dont like what i have done to you recently and count my blessings that i am still a part of your life. **

**in our case, accountability for me is heading very close to divorce, something i certainly dont want**

I feel he is understanding the severity of his actions. You are right markos, only he can prove you wrong in how you perceive him at this point. I do feel you have misunderstood some of his email to me or I am viewing his words differently than you are...

Regardless, he does need to change, he does need to own up to his actions and he does need to realize the hurt, pain, and disappoinment he has caused in all of this. Will he? I don't know - but I do feel he's willing to give it a shot and get us back on track where we should be.

If he doesn't? Then I know all those words were just words and he was not sincere. That in turn will put me on a different path - but at least I will then know, right?

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Enlightened_Ex,
I do plan on sharing every bit of this post with him so he can see the insights of others who are posting back to me.

It will be up to him if he embraces MB or not. Yes, I think it's vital, but I can't force him. I can only request what I am expecting out of this marriage and it'll be his choice to either be in it for the long haul, or not.

At least at this point, (I feel) we are BOTH willing to work on the marriage...not always the case in some relationships...

I'm not sure I'd share the actual post with him yet. Let's see what he will actually do before you open up this source of your ideas.

If you want to direct him to the home site, where all the info is on the plans, the questionnaires, etc, then by all means.

I'm not sure he needs to read your coaching directions just yet.

But I may be wrong, so don't just take my word for that advice.

Diamond, the part of his response that jumps out to me is:

"If I have any srikes left, I will take full advantage of those."

Sometimes people who are throwing bull around unintentionally say what they really mean. Translation: If you will let me, I will hurt you again, because what I do is take advantage of the generosity of others.