H had a long (and yes, argumentative) discussion with me last night after he talked with the kids. I guess I've finally succeeded in "nagging" him so much about his affair with Mia, that he finally told me all the gory details. UGGHHH!<P>Seems that H is still "in love" with her. He wants to have a future with her in it. (he claims she is still avoiding him at all costs, but like I've said before, this is something I just can't or won't believe) He told me that he would rather spend just a few precious moments with her, than a lifetime with me. (ouch) He reminded me that he continually kept asking me for years to go to counseling with him, and I was the one who refused to acknowledge a problem existed. (This is very true) So, I guess, his needs, wants, desires as a husband, or just a man went unfulfilled for so long that he found someone else - Mia. He said he will always respect that I am the mother of his kids, but that he cannot say that he loves me with the kind of deep love that a man should or does feel for his wife. He says he has that feeling for Mia. He told me that he has not found me sexually attractive for years....<P>There was more to this conversation - along the same lines as I've already mentioned. So, I guess he's made his choice and I just have to accept it. I am sure you can all understand that I still have a great hatred for Mia and her part in all this. I'm sure my H was a very willing participant, but she knew he was married. Would it have kept my H from having an affair? Probably not. If not her, well then, someone else. <P>I should have seen the writing on the wall so many years ago when H was asking me to go to counseling. I never thought our problems were that bad. I guess I just chose to ignore the problems and hoped they would go away. <P>Sheba, thanks for all the help with writing my H that letter - for what it's worth, he read it, and said nothing. He's obviously moving on without me. I'm way too tired to continue riding the rollercoaster.

How do YOU feel? Are you willing to go to counseling now? Does your H consider it too late? Maybe since he's there, there may be some hope for you two yet.........<P>

JoeJohn:<P>My H is not here anymore. He is staying with a relative because he found out I called the OW at her work (he works there too) and told her off, called her every disgusting name in the book, and well, just went ballistic on her. He's been gone 2 weeks. We both were in couples counseling but he stopped going. Our conselor suggested to both of us that I was the one who had many more issues to sort out and work on than he did (go figure - he's the infidel...) And NO, he won't think of going again. He definately thinks it's past the point of no return.

You know...you deserve SO much more than the kind of feelings your H is expressing now. Maybe it's time to LET him have his Mia, and get on with YOUR life. <P>There's a chance you may still be able to work things out, if Mia is indeed avoiding him...but you have your doubts about that.<P>You could always curse her out now...if you're thinking there's nothing to lose. I'm sorry, I'm such an instigator, don't listen to me--I just know how much better I felt telling H's ex off one day on the phone. I didn't curse her out but told her some things she really needed to hear. I felt more in control, of myself, afterwards. Weird, I know.<P>I'm thinking about you. Take care of yourself.

Hi Lucks,<P>Thanks for the reply. I've already done the cursing out thing and that's why my H finally left. He couldn't take my out of control behavior anymore. So, I guess confronting the OW in any manner isn't such a good thing.

hello tl,<BR>I am so glad that you are here sharing your feelings. A very hard time for you. <BR>Please tell me you are not accepting the blame for the affair. It is NOT your fault your h made this choice.<BR>Okay, so you called her at work and cussed her out. Okay, so you did not go to counseling when asked to. This does not mean that your h's affair is your fault. Nor are you the cause he is not at home now.<BR>He is making his own decisions. YOu are not his keeper or his mother. You are his loving wife.<BR>If this is the path he chooses, there is nothing you can do about it. Continue in plan a or b-I think you are in neither or a modified version at this point. <BR>Take care of you, learn about your own needs, your own desires. It is a great time for personal growth. <BR>YOu will be okay tl!! (((hugs)))

Hi Tired Lady,<P>I think this is a good time for you to begin Plan B, and start trying to get yourself sane again. Your rollercoaster ride has been very difficult!<P>Now it's time to start to concentrate on what's good for you. It's time to let the anger and hatred slide. It's time to see what the rest of your life is like (whether it might include him or not).<P>I feel hope for you TL. I really do. Listen to your counsellor. Sure, your husband may have some issues to deal with, but so do you. Time to stop worrying about your H and start improving your state of mind!<P>Maybe at some point in the future you might become friends with your H again, and maybe you might become romantically involved again, but I think right now you <B>need</B> Plan B for your own sanity.<P>take care,<BR>--andy

Okay, a moment of anger here.<P>I think about this situation, tl, and it really gets under my skin...for your H to say he's leaving because you, his W, cussed out the OW? Has he no idea how horrible that sounds of HIM?<P>Hand him the Idiot Spouse Award. After using cl's skillet.

Hi Tired Lady -<P>You're welcome for any help I may have been.....I'm sorry that he didn't say anything right when he read it.<P>What prompted this talk?<P>I hope that you are going to continue counseling.....I think that it will help you sort things out.<P>It's time to change your focus from them to YOU!!!!<P>This is not about Mia....it is about you and H and how much water is under the bridge!!!<P>Gotta look at what you want for your life....he is not going to stay with someone who won't change any more than you want to stay with someone who wants someone else.....<P>MAKE HIM WANT YOU!!!<P>That can only be done by delving into your part in the marriage and the way you interact with him....<P>You can be the one he wants if you show him that you want him!!!!<P>Good Luck to you....I hope that you choose to do what is truly in your heart!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Tired Lady,<BR>For what it is worth my W said the same exact thing to me (she does not have the love that a wife should have for her husband). I suspect most of the people here have got the same response from thier betrayers it's typical. But since it is typical there is a good chance that thier outcome is typical of affairs also. There will probably be a time when he will have to rationalize his behavior to her too, or she to him. I know that it probably doesn't make it easier to take, but know that what he is "feeling" for her is not based on reality...<BR>Sorry I don't have anything more for you, it's a slow wheel but eventually it comes around...

Lucks,<P>Haven't the faintest idea why I am defending him, but it wasn't like that. He didn't just leave because of my call to the OW. It was the straw that broke the camel's back... Most of you probably are familiar with how much I have contributed to the destruction of my marriage. I will take responsibility for that. And if this is the result of my many, many years of choosing to put other things ahead of my H, then I'll have to learn from it. But I can't work on this anymore. It's a one way effort and we all know that's not going to fix a marriage.

Then again, maybe he was just looking for an excuse. My H used those exact words - he said the last straw was that I wanted him to quit the supposed consulting job he had, the job that required him to be gone for many hours and yet he could not say when or if he was ever going to get paid...

Thanks for all your replies, as usual. H's actions have nothing to do with not providing for me or the kids financially. He has always been good about that and said he'll continue to be (although I do have to get a full time job now) He's been miserable for years and so have I. I guess he was just more ready to move on with his life while I chose to remain ignorant of all the problems in our marriage. <P>I guess the OW won here, huh?

TL -<P>THe OW is not the problem and did not win anything.......<P>You and your H are the problem and you are both going to lose!!!<P>You have to want it and change from observer to active positive participant!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited November 02, 1999).]

Hi Sheba:<P>I don't see myself as "the" problem anymore. I will never understand his deception and infidelity! No matter how "bad" I was as a wife, or how I didn't meet all his needs, his way of finally dealing with it was to have an affair. Not just a passing fling, no, he was and still in his mind has been nurturing a "true love affair". <P>At this point, even if I crawl on my knees and beg him to pleaaaaasse try to work on this with me, he's past that.

TL -<P>I've said this before and I stand by it!<P>Everyone wants to feel loved and cherished.....that includes your H!!<P>You admit you did not exude those things to him.....<P>He finally got to the breaking point and found the warmth and love from another source.....<P>Start the fire back at home with actions and attitude.....not words!!!!<P>Let some love come out......<P>That is your part!!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

hello tl,<BR>are you there? Please listen to the whole thread...I think you are upset and only reading parts of it? <BR>This is not your fault. Regardless of what you and h did or did not do in the past for each other. He is being a dufus. You are blaming yourself, and you are both being very stubborn. Okay, there, it is out in the open. You are both being stubborn.<BR>I am not at all condoning crawling or begging to this man. That is way beneath you and will only get you pity. But he needs to see that you are loving and caring as sheba has suggested. This can be done without prostating yourself before the man! <BR>Make him want you agin.<BR>And what ever possessed you to ask for details about the affair? Nothing good ever comes of this. It is so painful, so vivid and so destructive. Ouch is right. Stop asking this man for any more info about any of this right now. It is a lovebuster.<BR>On his side, he is a dufus. Like Lucks said, he gets the big award. Ehhh gads, sending one fry pan. He is certainly not the mature one here, so you are going to have to be. Do not let him bait you, focus on you. Focus on were you would like to see the two of you in a year. (((hugs))) cl

Hi TL,<P>I'm so sorry about what happened since the phone call to Mia.<P>I agree with Sheba, when she says:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Everyone wants to feel loved and cherished.....that includes your H!!<P>You admit you did not exude those things to him.....<P>He finally got to the breaking point and found the warmth and love from another source.....<P>Start the fire back at home with actions and attitude.....not words!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is your time to shine, to show him that you love him more than his precious Mia, to show him that you can change and offer him what was sorely missing before. No, you did not "cause" his affair, he has 100% responsibility for that one, but as you admit, you didn't show him the love and attention he needed and desired. SHOW HIM NOW!<P>By the way, I agree with mkn and the others who said that his words were exactly the same as many betrayers (including, sadly, *me*). That's a good sign, he's going along like the rest of us did. Here's the thing... I DON'T FEEL LIKE THAT ANYMORE. So, you have some big-time hope there, if you want it!<P>Take care TL... <P> <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

TL:<P>Sheba is absolutely right. You do not help a man get over an affair by being a shrew. If you truly feel in your heart of hearts that it's over, damaged beyond repair, then you owe it to yourself to put the marriage out of its misery and allow yourself to move on; letting go of your bitterness which is accomplishing nothing positive, but is only causing you more pain.<P>As for your comment:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's a one way effort and we all know that's not going to fix a marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, it's not. But a one way effort, if different from the way things have been done before, WILL at least HELP fix a marriage, because he can't react in the same old ways if you don't ACT in the same old ways.<P>I STRONGLY recommend that you buy Susan Page's book HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER. I think you especially need to read the passage about how being right is the booby prize.<P>Yes, TL, you are right. Your H was cruel and wrong to have an affair. So you're right. What does it get you? <P>Please...regardless of what happens with your H, get hold of this book. It's helped me a lot, and right now I think my marriage is better than it's been in years (or at least I think so). If nothing else, it'll teach you about dealing with future relationships.

Sheba,CL,N-B,Dazed....Ahhhh, you all are so right about what it is I need to do. Yeah, I'm being the total shrew. I really have tried friends. Maybe not gone over the top and given that extra 10%, but as much as I could muster.<P>I can think of times that I tried to initiate a hug, to be met with a rigid response. Or a kiss, to which I got a turned cheek. Or a sexual touch to try and arouse my H for sex only to feel his hand move mine away and then turn over and hear him say, "don't. just go to sleep..." A gal can only be rejected so often, ya know? Funny thing is I was on the opposite side of this whole sequence of events just last year. Pre-Mia. <P>It took a huge amount of courage for H to fess up to his affair in our counseling session. Instead of using this opportunity to focus on re-establishing what used to be in our marriage, I have spent immeasurable engery killing what was left of our relationship. I don't condone my H's affair. But I do admit and accept my role in getting us to where we are. My H has said this even before my phone call to Mia - our marriage is beyond repair. I hope that we can at least remain friends..