Hi MB Forum People. I�m not sure where to begin. How about I start with some background� We�ve been married for 20 years and I�ve been a crappy husband pretty much the entire time. I hadn�t planned on being a crappy husband. I intended to be the husband I thought my wife would want. I just didn�t know how screwed up I was. I come from a pretty screwed up background. My dad was a child molester and my mother� well� she has stayed with him for 50 years. I grew up with zero affection and the longer I live, the more I realize how screwed up I am. As a Christian, I had never had sex before I married, so I didn�t know that I had serious intimacy-phobia. I gave up a masturbation addiction before we were married because I thought being married would fill in that emotional hole. Right after we were married I went back to school and spent all day studying. When I got home at night, my intimacy-anxiety kicked in and I turned my wife away (�I�m too tired�, �I have a test tomorrow � I have to sleep�, etc). As I continued the neglect several years, my wife became sad, depressed, and over-weight (Dr. H says that women should only put up with neglect for a few months or they�ll go insane, but my W has been putting up with my neglect for 20 years and her health has taken a serious toll). Because she was sad and depressed and not spontaneously cheerful (which was a big factor that attracted me to her), I turned to my drug of choice � masturbation. And by then the internet was invented (thanks a lot, Al !) and I was able to easily obtain porn to drive my masturbation habit. Two kids and 8 years later, I realized I couldn�t live a lie so I confessed to my wife and my pastor. I went to a 12-step program and counseling. I really tried to get help and get myself and my marriage back on track. I even started taking anti-depressants to address my depression/anxiety. However, without addressing the root of my problems, I was still turning away from wife (due to my intimacy-anxiety that I never really addressed). So things got a little better for few years but after years and years of turning away from my wife, she became bitter. So for several years more we love-busted like nobody�s business; I continued to neglect her of her most important emotional needs and she AO�ed and verbally lashed out/abused me. It got to the point where I couldn�t handle it. I thought: �What kind of sick person can just constantly demean a depressed person.� (The kind who has been kicked to the side for 20 years?! Duh!). So last year I told her that I was done. I really thought she was going to say �Don�t let the door hit you in the rear!� since she was constantly telling me how inferior I was. But she didn�t. She surprised me and said, �What can I do to change?� Well, I gave her a list. And she took it to heart. In addition, she found the MB website (including this forum). Reading Dr. H�s material has completely changed my thinking. I realize how badly I�ve been neglecting my wife and how I have essentially driven her insane. I feel horrible and I�ve been trying to apply MB principles. However, I still need lots of help.
Today, my wife just pointed out to me this quote from another thread:

This looks like it was written for me. Thanks Zibbles! But here�s where I need help:

(1) Like Kiss, I�m a renter. I admit it. I don�t know how to change (no I don�t have the B, R, & FL book�yet). When I do something thoughtless and I upset my wife (see my last thread for some examples of my inadvertent bad behavior), I go into a �this will never work � I�ll never be the man my wife needs/wants/deserves� mode.

(2) Zibbles and y�all (sounds like a name for a band) probably have normal intimacy response. I, on the other hand, don�t. Zibbles talks about �the feelings of love.� I want to want my wife the way she wants me to want her. But I don�t. I was raised to not want anything. Want was bad. I suppress my needs and deny my wife the opportunity to meet my needs. In fact, I have a hard time even knowing what my needs are! And I still have anxiety over being intimate (but I am getting better at overcoming it). I think my love bank has a padlock on it.

(3) I feel like Zibbles & y�all started off with good marriages � you had something that you want to go back to. We don�t have anything like that. My wife shouldn�t have married me. I was not marriage material. And now that I�m learning how to be marriage material, there is so much baggage and scars that when I make changes that seem herculean for me, I�ll do some dumb little LB which will trigger my wife�s pain and distrust (little LB for me, but a reminder of 20 years of neglect for her), which I mentally understand, but seeing her in pain over my weaknesses makes me want to give up.

(4) The contrast effect (Dr. H talks about this on MB Radio): I started fantasizing about women (and masturbating about those fantasies) when I was 12 or 13. It was my drug. As a Christian, I didn�t want to turn away a really good woman just because she wasn�t physically perfect. I loved my wife when we got married. Or I loved the way she made me feel. But when I turned away from her and she became depressed/upset/angry/over-weight, she wasn�t making me feel good anymore (I understand that it�s warped to want others �make you� feel good), so I went back to my drug. I�ve gone without porn for 1 year, but I still have issues keeping my mind and my eyes focused � especially when I lose hope in my marriage. Even after we started doing MB (last September or so), I was still going to dating websites to look at women�s profiles and pictures (I wasn�t contacting anyone or communicating� just fantasizing about an altenate reality). I would download thier pictures while at work and pull them up whenever I needed a fix throughout the day. It's only been in the past couple of months that I've been 100% honest with her about all my "wayward behavior". So because of my depression and my messed up head and the contrast effect, I wonder if I�ll ever be able to keep my eyes focused on my wife and my wife only (Matthew 18:9).

Summary: I�m going through the motions (we�re working on MB concepts: 15 hours, POJA, PORH, reading HNHN, LB, etc.), but I often lose hope and feel like my W deserves better and that I�ll never be the thoughtful, loving, husband that I promised her; that I�m just not mentally/emotionally strong enough. I often feel like she�d be better off without me. But she is committed and I don�t want to destroy my family. But I can�t see me getting to the point where it �gets effortless as the feelings of love grow.� I have a hard time believing that I�ll ever be the good, strong husband that she deserves and that I thought I was going to be when we got married.

I look forward to y'all's help.

-1HG

Have you given up porn?

Have you cheated, emotionally or physically in addition to porn?

Your childhood stuff has nothing to with the decisions you make as an adult.

Dr Harley is very clear that you must not procrastinate or pour over the 'reasons why'

Do or do not - there is no try

Get the Book Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.

Buyers Renters and Freeloaders

Where did you read this? I am not familiar with this, and I've been around for a while.

Hopeful, I am an adult survivor of childhood molestation. And I am a faithful wife. I'm not saying my molestation didn't cause problems for me - it did. But I never reduced myself to self-stimulation to work through that. I never neglected my family because of it.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that you have learned to pleasure yourself, or you would never have married.

You have developed a bad habit of masturbating instead of developing a healthy sexual life with your wife. And that's the good news! Your habit is easily overcome - you need to quit viewing porn and whacking the wong. Simple. Done.

The bigger issue is that it is clear that you and your wife have lost touch and seem to be leading parallel lives - how many hours a week do you spend together, just the two of you - and what do you do when you're together?

ok renter,

thought i'd respond to you...

1. no more porn and masturbation. if this has been your primary source of sexual expression, it's probably caused you to feel ashamed and dirty about your sexuality. you've got to unlearn this pattern of being all alone, sexually.

2. no, i did not have a happy marriage to go back to. i had a feeble marriage with a guy who's got a heart of gold. we work on it everyday! how can a marriage be happy if one or both partners go into it with a mindset of bailing out when things get hard?

3. you're doing a great job of studying here and beginning to apply the principles. 15 hours of UA but really , go for 20 if you can. start having fun with your wife again. find things to compliment her about. look for what's good in her and share that with her.

4. get rid of needing to reflect on why you are the way you are and how you got here. BE HERE NOW and give yourself a fresh start. no more lamenting about what a terrible partner you are.

5. no more lovebusters. this is hard. some of these LB's are old, familiar habits. in your case it sounds like you have a lot of independent behavior and dishonesty. you are hiding from your wife. make cleaning up these lovebusters a priority.

6. STOP looking at pics of other women! just stop. it's a distraction really, from the fact that you don't like where you are in your life. wasting time on this is bad for you marriage, bad for you and it's a waste of time!

7. i am not an expert nor do i claim to be one. just here trying to learn and implement the program. it is NOT easy and there are lots of times when i feel myself detaching. there is a lifetime of work ahead and it's worth it because the alternative is pretty sad.

keep reading, keep chipping away at those old habits. if you want to LOVE your wife, you can.

you see, waywards love to be distracted. we want to fantasize about some other life as opposed to investing in the one we have with it's imperfections, stress and disappointments.

you've been distracting yourself with porn and by being detached from your wife. i get it. i got distracted too by some pie in the sky fantasy. it was all just a way to not face the hard work of married and family life.

you say here that you're just going through the motions and still finding ways to be distracted. at some point you just decide to show the heck up! show up in your life and your marriage. start showing up for you. become a man you can be proud of on all levels (this is what i mean about be here now and stop trying to understand why you're messed up. you're only as messed up as you decide to be).

some days are better than others, i know. that's why building a better marriage isn't for sissies. if it were easy, everyone would be doing it but it's HARD and it's ongoing.

it's worth it. i say this as someone who's still got a long way to go.

KEEP CHIPPING AWAY!

Sounds to me like you have a high need for an attractive spouse, and your wife is not meeting that need. Your main problem here is probably that you are comparing her (wether you are doing so intentionally or not) to the 18 y/o "models" in pornography. There is no way that ANY self respecting woman could ever compete.

Stay away from the porn (and masturbation) and explain to your wife what she could do to be more attractive to YOU. That should go a long way to resolving your "intimacy issues."

Please read Addiction to Pornography #1

Please listen to these clips.
Radio clip on pornography
Segment #2

indiegirl,
Yes, I have given up porn...and mastrubation. However, I am still very emotionally drawn to pretty women - just seeing them in stores, etc. is like a drug. I constantly "covet my neighbor's wife." (Exo. 20:17)
I have never had any type of affair, emotional or otherwise, with a real woman. However, my wife says that what I have been doing is worse in some ways since I have been with thousands of women in my mind.
I respectfully disagree. I know that Dr. H has us do actions and not worry about the past, but my childhood affects my thinking in a profound way. When I am depressed, I feel like there is no hope. I go to a dark place where I don�t believe I�ll ever be able to be happy so why try. When I�m feeling this way it can have a significant effect on decisions that I make. I can�t fill my wife�s love bank and she can�t fill mine when I go there. So I really don�t understand why you say how a person is raised has �nothing to do with the decisions� they make as an adult? It�s like if you shock a monkey every time they scratch their head. They�ll never scratch their head again. As a child I was shocked for wanting, shocked for enjoying, shocked for loving. How is that not going to affect my decisions?
I agree. I am trying to not procrastinate or pour over it. But now I know the �why� and it has helped my not blame my wife for all my problems. I now own my problems and I am trying to take action. However, it�s hard to tell someone that there�s a light at the end of the tunnel when they�ve been blind all their life.
Thanks, Yoda!!! I am doing, but it often seems like my wife would be better off with a real Jedi instead of a wookie.

So what actions are you taking?

AJoseJake,
Yes, you are correct; when filling out the questionnaires, "Attractive Spouse" came up as #1 or #2. I feel very shallow for admitting this. My wife is very upset that I didn't admit this to myself and her 20 years ago. What you are saying about no woman competing with 18 y/o "models" is correct. That's what the "Contrast Effect" is (I learned that term from Dr. H on MB Radio). And I admit that I've made it nearly impossible for my wife to ever be able to meet that need. I have stayed away from porn (and masturbation), but there are attractive women everywhere I look. And my wife, even if she loses all the excess weight, will still never quite be there. I suppose that's a question for Dr. Harley: "Is there any way to retrain my brain so that physical attractiveness isn�t a top emotional need?"

If PA is a top need for you why not work on having your wife meeting it? Don't try to trick your brain. That is not MB.

Have you read Dr. H's basic concepts? Physical Attractiveness is a top EN and is for alot of people.
Physical Attractiveness

Maritalbliss,

The thing about women going insane I heard on MB radio.

Regarding your comment:


It's not that simple. I've stopped those activities (no M or Porn for about a year). But I my wife is so hurt that she is constantly triggered. When she gets triggered and sad/upset/angry, I get depressed. When I get depressed I lose hope. When I lose hope, she gets even more upset because I don' t "man up.� So I want to give up so I can stop causing us both misery.

I'll be naughty here and say something; MB is about "tricking" your brain and/or taking control of the way our brains operate when it comes to feelings of desire and attachment.

In fact, it's the very base of the program!


1HG, you want a few tips on how to learn to find your wife attractive, on how to kill contrast effect? I have a few tips!


1) Yes, she can lose excess weight. Understand, however, this may mean some lifestyle changes for the both of you; eating better, and exercise.

1a) DO NOT go work out in some gym where you are surrounded by young hardbodies. It's a BIG internet out there, and you can probably sit down with your wife and develop and PoJA a home workout plan for the both of you.

1b) Go clothes shopping with your wife. Beforehand, PoJA some possibilities for how you might like to see her dressed. Make sure that you make choices that fit her body and compliment her shape while accentuating areas that you like, while downplaying what you don't. Focus on bright colors if you can (bright colors kind send us a sense of energy and attractiveness)

1c) Discuss and poja a nice cut-n-color for your wife, as well as a facial. Discuss and PoJA a consultation on makeup.

2) QUIT FREAKING OGLING WOMEN! This means eliminating any; websites, magazines, movies, or TV shows centered on eye candy. Eliminate opportunities for Contrast.

3) Start scheduling 20+ hours each week of UA time to help build your love and attraction to your wife.

4) (both of you) QUIT FIGHTING!

BrainHurts,

I hate to type this since I know my wife will read it and I hate to say things that are hard for her to hear. Yes, I have read HNHN and I know that PA is a top EN for many people. But I didn�t admit that to myself when I married her. I didn't marry her for her looks. She has never been a "10" and never will be. As a Christian, when I married her, I denied my emotional need to be with a woman that I found "drop dead hot" since she met all my other EN's - the ones "that count". I didn't want to lose a wonderful woman in order to satisfy a "worldly" need. In Harley terms, I let my giver rule my taker, then let my taker rear its ugly head later in the marriage. I should have been in touch with my taker and honest with myself and my wife from the beginning. But I wasn�t, and now after turning away from my wife for 20 years and turning to porn, she is hurt like nobody�s business. She is working very hard to be more PA to me, and I hope that she can lose weight and become her best self. But even when we first married and she was a thin as she will ever be able to be, she�s just not built like my idea of an attractive body. I admit that it�s sad. I feel like a turd: what a horrible thing to do to a person: essentially, I told her when we married that she was �attractive enough�, then I turned away from her because of my anxiety surrounding intimacy, so she thought I didn�t want her, then I turned to porn, and now I�m saying, �well, you never really were attractive to me.� I feel horrible. So I am hoping that when she loses weight and we get better at meeting each other�s EN�s, that I will be satisfied and that we can still meet that �romantic threshold� that Harley talks about. Is that correct thinking on my part?

I don�t buy it.

Men don�t marry women they find unattractive for the good of their soul. She has become less attractive due to contrast effect.

She WAS attractive enough for you to consider marrying her, and actually doing it - so she DID fill your PA need.

It sounds like you are still suffering from contrast effect when you say stuff like, 'she's not a ten'. What the hell is a ten?!

If you are still mentally comparing her to other women, then you will get locked in this false mindset where women are given marks out of ten.

If she is 'attractive enough', and is not being compared to other women (how often DO you do this, mentally, anyway?) and fills your needs in the way you wish... then feelings for her will bloom.

Joyce even makes Dr Harley cover his eyes when an actress on screen is showing skin on screen. She understands contrast effect.

Of course it is best if your wife is a healthy weight and takes your needs into consideration as regards her appearance and presentability - is this being done? Give her lots of compliments when it is.

You said she is still 'triggered' - by what? What is creating the triggers? Under what circumstances does she get upset? Does she see you checking out other women? Describe the last time a trigger happened.



Stick to the truth, HG. Not psychobabble. It was laziness. It's easier to get a PA need met online than to talk and work with your wife towards that goal. Laziness!



Yes it is.

1HG,

You need to take responsibility for your actions and your decisions. And... you ain't.

Let me tell you that every line you begin with "As a Christian..." or use some modifier referring to faith? Yup. You can't blame God. You can't blame your faith.

YOU made the decisions, YOU acted.


"As a Christian" you spanked your monkey relentlessly until it was impossible for you to find your wife appealing. How does that fit?

Not so well, right? Ok then. Knock it off.

We get it. You wish to be a good Christian. Well, husband, father, and man is part of that package, sir.

Let's work on those, ok?

Well are you a #10 yourself?
Does Playgirl call to have you in the centerfold?
Here's a secret that 99% of the world knows: women don't like to be told they re fat.
But you've already said it and maybe it needed said. But there is such a thing as manners and proper way o doing things.
Have you invited your wife to read His needs Her Needs with you?
I would recommend that. You both need to commit to the MB program because there are probably changes she would like to see in you.
(I don't mean to sound critical but you really need to start at step 1: read His Needs Her needs with your wife before telling her she's fat)

Holdherhand:
I agree. I made the decision. I just don�t think I was in a place in my head at the time to make a good decision. First off, we dated seriously for only about 3 months before we got married. (We were good friends for many years before that.) I had never really had a serious, long-term relationship with anyone else. I was looking for spackle for the hole in my heart. I married someone who I thought would �blow sunshine up my butt.� I thought she would solve all my problems and thus magically purge my �evil� desire for a wife with a nice body. But that was a stupid mentality. I was not a whole person and as half a person, I sucked the life out of my wife. As I�m learning about MB principles, I�m learning to be honest with myself and my wife. As I�m becoming honest, I�m finding that when she�s not �blowing sunshine up my butt� (acting in a way that withdraws LU�s in her account in my love bank) I have a renter�s mentality.
Not because I hate my wife, but because I believe we are not good for each other. My wife is a wonderful person, but I often think another guy would appreciate her and love her a lot better than I ever will. And she would be better off.
Actually � when things are going rough and she�s not �sun-shiney�, I don�t wish to be a good Christian. I want to just bail from my religion and my marriage and �play the field.� Perhaps someday I will be marriage material and then I can find someone who would be a better fit. Right now I�m pretty stable, but it�s only a matter of time before I do something that triggers my wife and in turn sends me into depression where I want to quit.
Now, regarding your Advice on killing the contrast effect:
1a) Got it. I nor we go to a gym.
1b) Thanks. She�s actually really good at wearing nice clothes.
1c) She�s good at make-up, etc.
2) I have stopped looking at porn or TV shows or movies or anything that she is not in agreement about. However, pretty, thin women are everywhere. I�d have to lock myself in a vault to never see other women. And when we�re around other attractive women (no matter what they are wearing), even if I�m not oogling, she still gets triggered (upset, frustrated).
3) We�re doing around 15 hours, but we�re not very good at sticking with the �rules.� We are trying to include the 4 �EN activities� into our 15 hours, but our intimate conversation, will usually end up being her talking about how hurt she is while I sit and listen and apologize for being a jerk. Yeah, I deserve some lecturing, but our 15 hours is not the most enjoyable 15 hours of the week like it�s supposed to be.
4) Believe me. We are trying. But I go and do something thoughtless and it will trigger her and when she gets triggered, I get depressed and go into my black-hole where no light enters or escapes (I lose hope). My thoughtless things can be as simple as forgetting to say �thank you� when she gives me a complement, or continuing to put ice in her glass when she says, �no thank you� (not listening to her/ignoring her)
So I know that Dr. H says that it takes 2 years for a spouse to get over an affair. Does that mean I have to have her lecture me about what a crappy husband I�ve been for the next two years?

HDW,

Why yes I am!


I know. That�s why I didn�t ever tell her for 19 years. I didn�t want to hurt her. In this particular instance, I let my giver give which caused my taker to pop up in a secret 2nd life and view porn. Not that that is an excuse - I should have been honest with W, but I wasn't and it just made things worse.


Thanks for saying. When I eventually told her that she wasn�t meeting my need for an AS, I initially told her nicely. Then I went too far and said some things that were a little bit more hurtful. I can never take back those hurtful things and I don�t think she�ll ever forgive me.


Yes. We have both read HNHN and LB. She has also read Surviving an Affair since she feels just as violated as someone with husband who has had 1,000 affairs.


We are having a POJA issue with actually going through the program. She doesn�t feel safe just doing the worksheets with me. She wants to have an intermediary. She wanted to do the $1,000 coaching program, but I wasn�t in enthusiastic agreement (our finances are as troubled as our marriage). So now I�m not really sure what we�re going to do. I want to do the worksheets, but she doesn�t feel safe. Suggestions anyone?


As mentioned above, we have both read it. However, when I lost my cool, I did a DJ instead of a thoughtful request and that cat will never be back in the bag.