To Peter C, dzrt, nlitend, Joe John - <P>Thanks for your encouragements. They mean alot. I cannot recommend talking directly with Dr. Steve Harley enough. I thought I was doing Plan A, and I wasn't. I thought Plan A was all about meeting my H's needs so that he wouldn't need the OW anymore eventually. In my case, H has not given her up so I can't meet his needs. He will only resist me. Plan A basically for me is going to be making home feel like a safe place to come to. I have to lose my emotional state, I can't lovebust or make claims of it being unfair. Pretty much live in denial and be a doormat, but I need to show him that I can "protect" him from myself, meaning that he is going to see changes and that I'm serious about working on the marriage. It also means that I can't try to "educate" him on what or why he's doing what he's doing, even tho I KNOW, but it causes more resistance from him. But he reminded me that it is only temporary with the end prize of keeping him in the marriage (which I hope doesn't take too long because I most definitely have a limit to what I can take), and only if he feels safe again and sees changes will he begin to participate in the changes. There's SO much more to it, I wish I could put down all my notes, and maybe I'm not even stating it right. I have to be very direct and ask questions, like if it bothers him when I kiss him goodbye or hug him before he leaves in the morning. I know it sounds like a horrible thing to live through, but I will give it a chance. You have to be respectful and not full of judgment (even tho I believe my judgment of his actions are correct!), I will have to keep alot of it to myself for now. If it isn't positive and doesn't need to be said, then don't. I just keep thinking - this is only temporary. I don't take being walked on easily. Actually, it won't be that hard since my H is really kind to me. It's my distrust of him that is going to drive me crazy but this is beyond my control too. I can only deal with things in my control. My H has a lot of guilt so my hope is that this will do my work for me.<P>I'm still going to my sister's house to see her lawyers. I haven't lost my self-worth most of all. I do want to try Plan A the way Dr. Harley suggested. After all, what's the hurry and where do I think I'm going? If he has a plan that works like he says, I need to give it a try. It would be a different thing if we weren't talking at all, he was being cruel to me or the kids, or she was in my face all the time. Maybe at this time, it's a good thing I don't know who she is. <P>DZRT - I'd like to know how your session went. Our situations are slightly different but both our S's are still involved with the OP's and I'd like to know what you got out of it if anything. I think this forum is great for people to get ideas they can maybe use and I love to hear ANY advice. I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE MY MARRIAGE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! But that's me, and I can't control what my H does. My E-mail is kmd_kmb@hotmail.com. Let me know what you got out of your session. Now that it is over, I wish I had written down some key things I wanted to mention but FORGOT! I will definitely call him again and am going to try to get H to.<P>All I can do is be strong, and I think when he sees strength back in me along with showing him I'm really going to try to make permanent changes in our marriage, he'll realize who I am again. He'll recognize me again and remember I'm the same girl who's always been by his side. This is my hope and I'll hang on to it. I know I was feisty yesterday and ready for Plan B. This is a rollercoaster! Dr. Harley made me see what I really am ready for and it's not that far yet. But I will not lose myself again now that I know how many people are behind me. He's the one who should be worrying. How many people are going to pat him on the back and high five him?! He'll be lucky not to lose his job by the time this woman is done with him.<P>

HB,<P>I read your post several times. So, what you are saying is that Harley recommended that you remain with Plan A which means that you live with H while he is still involved with someone else? I am very confused. <P>I thought I read stuff written by W. Harley that said if you continue to tolerate them getting their needs met by both of you that they will just continue to sit on the fence, i.e. have their cake & eat it too.<P>Are you saying that he advised you to sit it out until the affair died it's own death?<P>I am sort of in the same boat. My H, if anything, has been more considerate of me than he has been the last couple of years. He has been a tornado of activity around the house. Fixing & repairing stuff. He does my laundry and would make me dinner every night if I let him. But, as of yet, he will not recommit to the relationship.<P>Based on your discussion with Harley, do you think I should have him move back into the house? We are both very miserable being separated. And financially, it's becoming a real drain.<P>Need some advice...

Hurt Bad,<BR> I am so glad you talked to Dr. Harley. He told me basically the same things. I am proud of you for sticking to Plan A. If you want Plan B, then fine, but I think at this point you can do more with Plan A. My w is still talking to the om via the internet and as I have told you before, she is not very receptive to my attempt to meet her needs. Dr. Harley said that is normal and I should go ahead and attempt to meet them anyway. One of her big ones was non-sexual affection. Man, I really want that but she is very resistant. Soemtimes I get a hug, but usually not. One time she accidently told me "I love you, too" and I was on cloud nine all day. It is so hard. My wife used to complain that I was too negative around the house, which I was, but I felt it was in reaction to her attitude and the way she treated me. I would come home after work and she would immediately complain about the kids, ect. and ect. I now have changed my attitude to total happiness and positiveness. She has really noticed this (she says) and now she apologizes to ME when she is negative. My main thrust now is to hold the course so she will learn that I have made permanent changes and not just to win her back. I see her wanting to believe in me, but the draw of the om is very strong.<BR> I am working on me and avoiding lovebusters, which for my w means that I can't talk much about "us". I think the guilt gets to her. I haven't been to Dr. Harley in 3-4 weeks because until she talks to him or leaves her relationship with the om, there is nothing new I can do. I may call him next week just to update him on my progress. I keep trying to get my wife to talk to him, but she has resisted so far. She knows that I talk to him and I think she likes the fact that I am serious enough to seek counseling (so unlike me!!!). One thing that I have been doing that I am worried about is that I send her several e-mails and letters every day telling her how much I love her and how important she is to me. She does not comment on these (usually not anyway), but she has not told me to stop. Since I cannot seem to get through to her with physical touch, I figured I would do it with my thoughts. Did Dr. Harley say anything about this? I don't want to seem pushy, but I think she actually likes these letters, but I also think that they pull her my direction which confuses her. Dr. Harley said that confusion is good. I just keep plugging away. I have also made sure that we went out once a week alone (to somewhere different or fun) and she always is hesitant at first, but then she always has a great time. I also make sure we do lots of fun family things. Dr. Harley also cautioned me that I should watch how I relate to my child. If I am short or negative, she will associate that with how I treat her. What a tightrope I now walk, but I LOVE HER MORE THAN ANYTHING and if this works, it will be sooo worth it.<P>dzrt

Sidney,<BR> You stay in Plan A until you start to lose your love or tolerance for your spouse. He maintains that it is MUCH easier for you to demonstrate your positive changes while living together. Plan B is for when you feel your love dying or you have no tolerance. Plan B is to protect yourself. Plan A is to show your changes and attempt to meet your spouses needs (even though if they are involved with OP, they will likely not let you...that is very tough to deal with). My w is having an internet affair (which had a week physical part to it). The om lives in another country, so it is not physical right now. If it was, I don't know if I would have the strength to continue to live with her. Then again, maybe I would find that strength.<P>dzrt

sidney:<P>I wish I could give you an answer. For me it has to be this way because my H works with the OW and is reluctant to tell her goodbye. I can do more good with him being at home because I have his entire life with me and his kids. She only has moments at work when she can contact him. There is more I can do than she. It is a battle, and he told me that I'm going to feel like a doormat, but also that's it's temporary and looking forward toward a goal. I really wish you could make an appt. yourself and let him make sense of it, I know it costs a little bit but he can give you good advice and a PLAN. That's what I needed was a PLAN because otherwise I was floundering.<P>dsrt:<P>My H is also resistant (but not totally) to my meeting his needs, but I really also feel like altho this OW is contacting him, I think he is so confused and truly doesn't want to hurt me so is not "seeing" her. He goes to great lengths to assure me of what he's doing, how much time it'll take, who is there with him. Now either he is trying to win back my trust or he is the biggest con man that ever walked the planet.<P>Today however, I had a melt-down. Even after talking with Dr. Harley just yesterday. This morning he told me, almost in a manner like he was afraid to tell me, that Saturday night he'd have to work from midnight til 6am. Well, my legs gave out and I couldn't stop my hands from shaking. It also happens that Saturday is the one-month "anniversary" of finding out about the affair, and also the 2nd anniversary of it happening for the 1st time. It was a bit too coincidental for me. I begged him to please don't do this to me. He gave me a huge tight hug and said now I'm working myself into something for no reason. He said he's not doing anything and wouldn't do that to me again. He said he's going to show me the documentation from work on it (memo from boss) and prove to me that it really is work. Before he left this morning, he told me he was going to try to "weasel" his way out of having to be there that night. This also was the weekend I was going to go to my sister's house in Illinois and leave the kids with him (which was ok with him). He said he was going to tell them that I was going to be out of town and he couldn't work that night. I actually more than half believe him, but there's that nagging side that will never believe him again. After Dr. Harley said I should try hard to not be emotional, there I went and did it again.<P>So do you think that when I go to my sister's house this Saturday, I'd be wrong to take some peas from a can, put them in a small baggie, and place them under the mattress pad on my side of the bed, and look at what condition they are in when I get back? I wonder if I should worry he might bring her to my home after my kids are in bed and asleep.<P>Here I had regained so much strength, and I think still have. But the minute I'm confronted with the possibility of him being with her for a night, I lose it.<P>Know what else, dzrt, I'm not so hot for him anymore. There is the thought now that I don't know who this other woman is or what kind of person she is, and I don't want to risk my health for my kids' sakes. Intimacy with him is also with her too. That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt like crazy (I was up again for a long time last night TRYing to go to sleep), but I can hardly let it happen anymore. Very sad.<P>On the OTHER TOPICS forum, a posting by "quandry", my last post to her told her of some other things I learned from Dr. Harley, if you want to read. I don't know that it would be very helpful to you. Don't you feel like he said so much and made so much sense, but it's hard to put it into words for other people?<P>Have the best day possible- <P>Kathy

Kathy,<BR>Just a thought about those bad dates on the calendar. Write them down if you think you'll need/want them for future reference, but in your daily life FORGET them. Do not note bad anniversaries. I can say this cuz H has moved out 6 times, if I go ballistic/depressed every time we hit an anniversary date, I wouldn't have very many useful days (by the way, my H remembers no dates, no times, few affair events, even though it lasted 18 months!) <P>We go crazy enough without setting ourselves up for bad memories. Let that go.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P>

Thanks Lor-<P>I will let that go. You are completely right about that. I guess it's still very clear in my memory since it JUST happened. But you're right, and I won't dwell on it.<P><BR>--Kathy

Oh, HB, I know it is so hard. The very thought of our spouses with someone else is enough to rip out your heart.<P>In my case, I discovered the affair by coming home early from work and finding them together in our home. Her personal items were on my nightstand, so one needs no imagination to figure out the rest. Sometimes, I still have flashbacks and feel like I am suffering from post-tramatic stress syndrome.<P>Afterwards, while I was still in shock, I asked him to never allow her in our home again. His response was, "That's an absolute." I have driven myself crazy sometimes thinking of ways of checking up on him. I finally realized that I will have to trust him. If you don't have any amount of trust, then what's the point in the relationship?<P>Your pea idea (which I must compliment you on for it's creativity) would really prove nothing. Maybe you should express your concern to him about him bringing OW into your home? Of course, in a non-threatening way. Just say it is something you have been concerned about because of the children. See what he says. I think you have a valid concern. I never, in my wildest dreams, would have ever thought it would happen to me like that. But, it did. <P>